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goto124
2015-02-06, 04:37 AM
This was posted in the Worst Players thread. Thought I could bring it here.

http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

What scores did you get? What characters did you use each time you took the test? What thoughts went through your mind as you answered the questions?

Arbane
2015-02-06, 05:13 AM
#72: Good grief. Being a Chosen One is 40 points all by itself. So with just that, my current Pathfinder Oracle (pretty much a Chosen One by definition) hits 38 points.... Given that she's a beautiful warrior-woman with a magic sword she won in her backstory by wrestling a dead king, I'm surprised she scores that low, really.

The test doesn't seem to be all that well designed for tabletop RPG characters not run by the GM - no matter how Badass(tm) and Special(r) we want our characters to be, we're at the mercy of character generation, the dice, and the GM's veto....

Yeesh, I tried to score one of the other characters in my party, and got -20. I have no idea how that happened. (Especially as she's a medusa (with magic earrings to disguise her and turn off her petrification powers) witch who we just found out is petty nobility.)

Seto
2015-02-06, 05:57 AM
Hmm, I got 28 for an old character I played in a free-form Naruto RPG. Frankly, I liked this character, and wanted her to be awesome (combat-speaking), enough for her to be a Mary Sue, but she's saved by the facts that
1- she was an all-around very unpleasant and immoral person without being at all justified.
2- she often got beaten up by more powerful characters because she's just so verbally assaulting, annoying and reckless.

I agree with the fact that this test is really only well-designed for a story you write and control yourself.

Oneris
2015-02-06, 06:00 AM
My character's a wizard. I'd be lucky to get less than 30 from class alone.

Edit: I literally took the test only checking what a level 8-15 wizard would fulfill and got at least 70.

Yora
2015-02-06, 06:09 AM
Oh dear, this is the opposite of a litmus test. This is taking forever and still only a quarter down the page.
It could hardly be much more removed from "dip it in, does it turn red or blue?" :smallbiggrin:

goto124
2015-02-06, 06:29 AM
Before I go on, the website did say the traits themselves aren't necessarily negative. Maybe I'm proving the point with my comments- that some of these traits can be used for good, not-mary-sueish purposes.

I scored a 13.

The traits I ticked:

3, 4, 17 bcd. I imagine my characters to be attractive-looking, though I don't dwell on this when RPing. Both Axanot and Kelcey wear impractical clothes (bikini and bathrobe respectively) due to Rule of Cool and Rule of Sexy.

24. Kelcey talked about feminism in a chat with another PC, and that's it. One of my beliefs is 'don't shove your beliefs down other people's throats'

40a. I use this for Conservation of Detail. Where does Kelcey get the money from? Just buy whatever you wanted to buy already. I don't have her use it to buy plot-breaking magic items, or such.

42. To a certain extent, it's why I play adventurers.

Random comments:

I wonder how applicable 6a is, especially in TTRPGs where 'what exactly did your PCs eat' is often glossed over.

I didn't understand 47.

How often does 59 happen in TTRPGs due to the need to move on and not bother the player? I imagine it'll be less common than novels, but not completely invalidated.

The opposite of 79 is usually done for Tabletops- avoiding sexual topic because they can creep out the other players. Heh.

Lord Torath
2015-02-06, 09:03 AM
#72: Good grief. Being a Chosen One is 40 points all by itself. So with just that, my current Pathfinder Oracle (pretty much a Chosen One by definition) hits 38 points.... Given that she's a beautiful warrior-woman with a magic sword she won in her backstory by wrestling a dead king, I'm surprised she scores that low, really.

The test doesn't seem to be all that well designed for tabletop RPG characters not run by the GM - no matter how Badass(tm) and Special(r) we want our characters to be, we're at the mercy of character generation, the dice, and the GM's veto....

Yeesh, I tried to score one of the other characters in my party, and got -20. I have no idea how that happened. (Especially as she's a medusa (with magic earrings to disguise her and turn off her petrification powers) witch who we just found out is petty nobility.)Huh. I just clicked all 3 boxes for 72 Chosen one and got a score of 5 points...

Eldan
2015-02-06, 09:57 AM
Just for fun, I did myself, giving the either most permissive answers possibly when in doubt. I also refer to all other existing people as "canon characters".

I can with confidence say that I'm not basing my own looks on myself. I do however have my own name. :smalltongue:


I got 78, even after clicking pretty much every Desuifier. Guys, I think I'm a terrible Sue.

VincentTakeda
2015-02-06, 09:59 AM
Just scored my most recent 2 creations and got a 57 and 88 respectively... They're in a superhero system, so they're supposed to be a bit over the top... but man. Getting into the 50's seems almost accidental when you're trying to create a pc you actually like for any reason at all.

This seems almost like a guide to making characters that are not special in any way.

'How to create the average npc townie...' or at best 'how to make your pc seem as close to a mundane average npc townie as possible'

The only escape seems to be making a physically and mentally disabled fat ugly old lookin vampire eunich who is also mostly dumb and wrong and troubled... Which I agree fits the description of 'least likable endgame of character design'... Pearl from the Blade movies.... That'll buy you 52 points worth of 'not sucking' to work with...

Apparently I'm the opposite. I seem to like creating pcs that have a lot of good qualities for some reason. Seeing as i'm creating characters for superhero comic book style games... I wonder how characters like iron man and wolverine score...

goto124
2015-02-06, 10:10 AM
I also wondered what 'canon characters' meant in the context of fanfiction.

If I based my character off a canon character, such that my PC is inspired by, but not quite, the original canon character, is she 'my character' or the 'canon character'?

While we're at it, many of the traits involve the actions of the other characters. In context of a Tabletop, that would involve MASSIVE railroading and infringing on other players' agencies and land the offender in the Worse DM/Player thread. Usually it's the DM, who has a lot more control over the players. It's also why DMPCs are hated.

Another way is to be a Minion-o-mancer, and have your servants worship you (literally or metaphorically). Could be slightly better, but no good either.

IZ42
2015-02-06, 01:13 PM
Most of my characters end up 10-15 range. I'm apparently good at not making Mary Sues.

mikeejimbo
2015-02-06, 01:25 PM
I think Mary Sueness would be more relative than this test implies. If everyone in the canon/at the table could score 30+ I'd say that it's more likely none of them are Sues rather than all. That said, I also disagree that good characters "should" exhibit some of these traits. Characters in a realistic genre often wouldn't, and realistic fiction is still written.

I scored an 8 for one of my TTRPG characters, and I don't think he's boring, though admittedly his back story isn't incredibly well developed.

Oneris
2015-02-06, 01:43 PM
While we're at it, many of the traits involve the actions of the other characters. In context of a Tabletop, that would involve MASSIVE railroading and infringing on other players' agencies and land the offender in the Worse DM/Player thread. Usually it's the DM, who has a lot more control over the players. It's also why DMPCs are hated.

The creator's addressed that:

If your character is a role-playing character and the only reason you can answer 'yes' is because of other players acting of their own free wills (IE, everyone has their characters throwing themselves at your character's feet and you've done nothing to force this) do not answer yes to the corresponding question.

Most of these tropes really only apply to situations where you have full control over NPC actions, like your character's backstory. In fact, a question that should be added to the RPG section is "Has your character been magnitudes more competent or intelligent in xir backstory than xe has so far proven to be in-game?"

WarKitty
2015-02-06, 02:18 PM
The creator's addressed that:


Most of these tropes really only apply to situations where you have full control over NPC actions, like your character's backstory. In fact, a question that should be added to the RPG section is "Has your character been magnitudes more competent or intelligent in xir backstory than xe has so far proven to be in-game?"

Although this should have a caveat on it...my one player wrote a relatively competent thief D&D character. And then proceeded to never roll anything higher than a 5 on related rolls.

Ravian
2015-02-06, 02:24 PM
Haven't tested any RPG characters so far (I'm more of a GM most of the time anyway (and tend to avoid GMPC's so that's out of the question). I did however test an original fiction character I have ideas for (who is a full on deity) and ended up with only a 13. I'm glad that I appear to be avoiding most of the pitfalls, but I do think it's a little strange that so many RPG characters fail in this regard where a deity can succeed. (To be fair, the aim of the story is for him to struggle with his role and make not-so great decisions, so he probably would have been rather sue-ish if it wasn't for all the de-suifing points he picked up.)

Oneris
2015-02-06, 02:46 PM
The test isn't perfect, and there's a rather well known page of commentary on its pitfalls, accessible here (http://www.wiccananime.com/amslt/amsltindex.html).

Really, the defining trait of a Mary Sue is the incompetence of the writer in making their character appear to fit in within the world. I do recall a certain fanfiction author taking a generic mary sue character and trying to make her 'work' within the universe yet still retaining all her defining traits, (color changing eyes and hair, extreme beauty, tragic backstory linked to main protagonist), but it got lost on geocities and I don't remember the link.

Hunter Noventa
2015-02-06, 02:59 PM
I tested my Tiefling Magus from my current PF campaign, and got an 18. Of course, the entire party is made up of badass chosen ones at this point.

A note in regards to RPG characters needs to be added to the effect of anything regarding abilities or power level should be considered relative to your party, rather than the world, I'd think.

Mastikator
2015-02-06, 03:21 PM
Tried this for two characters that I've played in past games. The first one was a dragon that had shapeshifted into a human and disguised as a cleric of high social status with plans of conquest. The DM allowed this on the conditions that I retained none of my dragonic powers and the moment I shapeshifted back the character would become an NPC. I got a few "if your character is a vampire" negative points, figured that a dragon that can't overcome its greed, vanity and selfishness should count. I did a lot of planning on how the psychology of the dragon should work and how it should try to emulate humans. It didn't have any magical cleric powers that clerics normally have, since it was only pretending. The only thing it did benefit from was centuries of knowledge and wealth.
Got: 31
The other players were very annoyed when they found out that the character was in fact a dragon in an otherwise low fantasy game. Heh.

The second character was a blacksmiths apprentice who naively "went on an adventure" with the other PCs, despite having no adventuring skills. He was genuinely bad at everything, except for repairing armory. (he wasn't even good at that) In addition to having no skills or experience he was half blind.
Got: -11
The other players did like this character quite a lot, in spite (or perhaps because) he was so useless.

Segev
2015-02-06, 03:32 PM
While this test can be amusing to run for kicks and grins, it really is terrible for judging RPG characters. It might come close to being decent for freeform, multiversal ones where anybody can make anything at all.

One of its bigest problems is that it conflates "self insert" and "mary sue" in ways that they shouldn't be. There is definitely correlation, but neither causes the other, and being one does not add to being another. The reason they correlate is that self inserts often also are meant to be the author's power fantasy joining the setting to show just how awesome and special they are.

But a self-insert doesn't need to be a mary sue, and a mary sue doesn't need to be a self-insert. Mary sues can be utterly different from the author.

RPG characters are going to come off oddly in this test because they tend to be strongly controlled by premises which are, to this test, flags for being Mary Sue. Add in "normal for..." as a disqualifier for anything "counting" as a sue trait, and it becomes highly subjective whether this is "normal" for a character or being a PC makes it normal or what.

In all, it's a decent test for your original character you're inserting as a major new participant in the plot of your fanfic. Even then, it's imperfect due to the conflation of "self insert" with "mary sue." But that's where it will have the most meaning.

It's pretty bad at judging RPG characters.

kardar233
2015-02-06, 03:44 PM
I find this one (http://katfeete.net/writing/suestart.php) to be marginally better, personally.

TheThan
2015-02-06, 03:58 PM
I just ran Anakin Skywalker through it for kicks and it came back with 155. :smalleek:

Segev
2015-02-06, 04:01 PM
I find this one (http://katfeete.net/writing/suestart.php) to be marginally better, personally.

This one is still conflating "self insert" and "mary sue," which isn't highly surprising given that it's very clearly directed at original characters in fiction works by a single author. This is most evident in the "Mommy Likes Me Best" section, which, if viewed through a lens of RPGs, makes no sense as a "mary sue" gauge. It's there to detect the author/creator-of-the-character warping all characters in the story to like their character. When the character is a PC, his creator doesn't control the reactions of other characters. So "people yell at him for a bad attitude, then apologize later and say he was right" type things are not the creator's doing, but the doing of the GM or other players deciding the NPCs or their own PCs feel that way.


Also, the "I sometimes imagine myself to be [character]" question is always a dangerous one. I imagine myself to be just about any character I create or am writing, even if I don't personally like them, at various times. My imaginary landscape tends to have me filling all the roles and talking to myself. ^^;

I think that question alone made the character of mine I ran through this come out as a "10, he has my nose" on the scale, and made the summary blurb say "[Character] is suspiciously similar to who you want to be." It's one of only two I selected on that page. (Moreover, that's the page which is most guilty of conflating "self insert" with "mary sue.")

As ever, the weights are up to the writer of the test. It remains more geared for writing original characters for fiction than for RPG characters.

Segev
2015-02-06, 04:03 PM
I just ran Anakin Skywalker through it for kicks and it came back with 155. :smalleek:

Hard to be sure you ran him through fairly; you don't know for sure what Lucas thought people's reactions to him would be. (Admittedly, if you go in assuming he's a sue, you're able to make some solid guesses.)

Yora
2015-02-06, 04:12 PM
I did Mara Jade based on her first appearance, and she got a 25.
Still want to see what Thrawn would get.

mikeejimbo
2015-02-06, 04:13 PM
Also, the "I sometimes imagine myself to be [character]" question is always a dangerous one. I imagine myself to be just about any character I create or am writing, even if I don't personally like them, at various times. My imaginary landscape tends to have me filling all the roles and talking to myself. ^^;

I think that question alone made the character of mine I ran through this come out as a "10, he has my nose" on the scale, and made the summary blurb say "[Character] is suspiciously similar to who you want to be." It's one of only two I selected on that page. (Moreover, that's the page which is most guilty of conflating "self insert" with "mary sue.")

I had similar results, and the only reason I selected that I sometimes imagine I'm the character is because I was using an RPG character. That's kind of the point!

Oneris
2015-02-06, 04:17 PM
I just ran Anakin Skywalker through it for kicks and it came back with 155. :smalleek:

A large part of Mary Sues is deliberately mimicking iconic traits of pre-existing characters in an unimaginative attempt to be special. Filtering for these traits independently of cause has the side effect of marking many of the original characters as a Sue, even if they're the original.

That's not to say Anakin's not a horribly written character though. The concept was nice, but the execution was angsty.

Excession
2015-02-06, 04:18 PM
I did Mara Jade based on her first appearance, and she got a 25.
Still want to see what Thrawn would get.

Do we really need a test to tell us that Thrawn is a massive villain-sue?

Segev
2015-02-06, 04:18 PM
I had similar results, and the only reason I selected that I sometimes imagine I'm the character is because I was using an RPG character. That's kind of the point!

Looking back at it, I also clicked that he shares my sexual orientation (straight), my sex (male), and I rather expect people might like him.

I notably did not click that I'd feel attacked personally if people didn't. I just tend to think he's a likable sort of fellow.

I'm honestly unsure that you can write a protagonist that you don't expect to be loathesome to your audience and whose headspace you want to stay well outside of without tripping that section's alarm bells. Which suggests to me it's over-sensitive.

Yora
2015-02-06, 04:40 PM
Do we really need a test to tell us that Thrawn is a massive villain-sue?

I just ran it through and got a 38. Most of the things I checked are simply from the fact that any prime antagonist has a major impact on the plot. We did a shared reading of the books (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385881-Let-s-ALL-Read-The-Thrawn-Trilogy) the last two months and looking at the facts, he isn't really that Sue-ish at all.
He makes way too many mistakes and failures for that. He's just very good at telling his superiors he is always in completely control and making his enemies run around in panic, mistaking happy accidents as part of genius plans. He's great at making himself look much more capable and succesful than he really is. Quite clever writing.

TheThan
2015-02-06, 05:47 PM
Hard to be sure you ran him through fairly; you don't know for sure what Lucas thought people's reactions to him would be. (Admittedly, if you go in assuming he's a sue, you're able to make some solid guesses.)

A large part of Mary Sues is deliberately mimicking iconic traits of pre-existing characters in an unimaginative attempt to be special. Filtering for these traits independently of cause has the side effect of marking many of the original characters as a Sue, even if they're the original.

That's not to say Anakin's not a horribly written character though. The concept was nice, but the execution was angsty.

I actually tried to be fair.
I picked the subjective ones I know to be true.
For example it’s well known that Lucas is a car guy, he used to work on classic cars (might still do for all I know) as a kid and (I think) race them. When we meet Anakin, he’s already a great pilot and builds his own race car.
So yeah,
I left all the other really subjective ones blank, because I don’t know lucas’s feelings on the character personally.

But even if we take out assumptions on Lucas’s feelings towards the character we get the following:

Anakin skywalker:

has a small scar that makes him look distinctive, but doesn’t detract from his looks (before cyborg body that is)
has been in a lot of physical fights with little noticeable injuries
Born a slave
Adopted by another group (jedi)
he joins a group that he is too old to join (the jedi)
A child prodigy
A chosen one
A major villain has personal obsession with him
Dresses differently than the rest of his sort (wearing leather instead of wool or whatever they’re supposed to be wearing)
Has a short temper
Is always bending and breaking rules
Is fueled by a desire for revenge (for the death of mommy in EPII. the jedi killed in EPII, for the loss of his hand in EPIII, and so forth)
Has a rebellious streak
He is the best at what he does,
He has powers and abilities that are uncommon (and is strong in those powers)
His powers allow him to “just know” things, control other people etc
He’s powerful enough to take out legions of enemies
He knows at least 2 languages
Most of his screwups are forgiven by the jedi order
He uses a bladed weapon in post-modern time
He is renowned for his power
He forms a bond with a major villain (but fails to redeem him)
Characters that criticize him have a grudging respect for him.
He falls in love with someone at first sight,
His relationship is treated as amazingly deep and profound
Former relationships pail in comparison
His romance is deeper and more intense than any other shown in the series (He and Padme have children, which is more than Han and leia ever do in the canon).
By the end of Episode III, he has lost his best friend (Obi-wan), his spouse (Padme), and both his children (Luke/Leia). (While only one actually died at the end, he believes they are dead)
He makes nearly everyone else look weak by comparison
He is spared an otherwise ruthless villain
becomes a cyborg



The list goes on.
Anyway I just retook the test with a more conservative estimation of Anakin Skywalker’s mary sueness, I stopped at part three but I did click some for part five. I still came back with 108. Without the subtractions Anakin scored a 117. So the subtractions made less than a 10 point difference.

Faily
2015-02-06, 07:57 PM
I ran my Pathfinder Paladin through the test and got 37.

Then again, we've played these characters for over 2 years with weekly sessions or so now and they're level 16, her friends lead exciting and interesting lives (they're adventurers like her, we're establishing domains, etc), she has the power to bring people back from the dead (Ultimate Mercy), she is royalty (a ruling princess of a principality, earned through gameplay), has a magic sword that was most likely given to her father by their ancestor/guy who later became an Immortal (Ancestral Relic feat). And some other boxes I checked.

Still, I find that this test wont be very nice to long-running characters in a high-fantasy game. I think almost all the PCs in our Pathfinder group would score 30+.

Esprit15
2015-02-06, 08:19 PM
I tried this for a character I made way back when, who pretty much was a player insert (the next worst thing to a Mary Sue) and he still didn't make it to Sue range.

Excession
2015-02-06, 08:34 PM
I just ran it through and got a 38. Most of the things I checked are simply from the fact that any prime antagonist has a major impact on the plot. We did a shared reading of the books (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385881-Let-s-ALL-Read-The-Thrawn-Trilogy) the last two months and looking at the facts, he isn't really that Sue-ish at all.
He makes way too many mistakes and failures for that. He's just very good at telling his superiors he is always in completely control and making his enemies run around in panic, mistaking happy accidents as part of genius plans. He's great at making himself look much more capable and succesful than he really is. Quite clever writing.

OK, villain sue might be pushing it, I'll retract that. I recently read the trilogy myself for the first time to see what the fuss was about, and I can't say I was impressed. Thinking about it some more, I'm not sure if we see enough of Thrawn's personality at all. A lot is made of his not wholly human looks (in a universe with plenty of alien-looking aliens), an ability to read way too much into art, military genius, and oddly fanatical devotion to a dead Emperor.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this :smallfrown:

Tarlek Flamehai
2015-02-06, 10:23 PM
My first edition bard came back with a 99. But given that the other PCs in the party were all around the same, I don't think it matters. We had notAragorn, notGandalf, notThor, NotHanse Shadowspawn all in the same party.

Tiri
2015-02-06, 10:28 PM
Does being a sorcerer count as having an unusual feature?

I got 5 without clicking the box for it and 7 clicking it.

goto124
2015-02-07, 01:42 AM
Depends on how special sorcerers are in-universe, and (more importantly?) how often you/your PC keeps gloating about being a 'sorcerer'.

Sparx MacGyver
2015-02-07, 03:09 AM
Huh. Ran my Saga Edition character through it and got a 32. Guess it could have been worse. Also ran my very first rpg character through it and got a 79. So I guess there's something.

BeerMug Paladin
2015-02-07, 10:37 AM
I ran an original character of mine (a deliberate subversion of a mary sue) through the test and only got an 18. For some reason I was expecting a higher number than that.

I'm surprised how much of the test is skipped if you just don't make a character exactly like an idealized version of yourself. From the clothing, to looks, to hobbies, to beliefs, etc...

Jormengand
2015-02-07, 11:54 AM
Well...

Satoru Klein, Who Is The Writer, scores 179 points, so I guess that makes some level of sense. However, my essentially-based-on-me character only got 15, whereas I myself and me got 17 points on the first freaking question, rising up to 67 with the rest of the questions and, if I'd had SRS, that would have leapt up to 74.

While the test obviously isn't meant to put real people in... really?

gom jabbarwocky
2015-02-07, 12:54 PM
I put through my favorite old PC (from an old WoD Mage game set in Las Vegas). He was a film-buff sports-car-driving casino pyrotechnics expert by day, and an alcoholic vindictive time-traveler by night. Surprisingly, he only ended up with a 15!

I got some extra points due to the PC getting a "technically yes" for the questions related to "do characters that criticize or don't like your character end up humiliated, miserable, or dead?" This was only because if an NPC caused him to lose face, the NPC would often end up dead because the PC killed them. This PC had some serious anger issues.

My current PbP PC got a 12, but since it's a superhero game that's bizarrely low.

Actually, the thing that bothered me most about this test was the use of made-up gender-neutral pronouns. "They" has been a perfectly acceptable gender-neutral pronoun in English for centuries.

goto124
2015-02-07, 07:20 PM
Did your murderhobo PC face consequences for his anger issues, or did he get off easy? Was he in a Tabletop or a computer game?

rweird
2015-02-08, 10:40 AM
A problem with many RPGs (especially fantasy ones), is that, by definition, the players are exceptional, and can do things almost no-one else can. I ran a 30th level gestalt wizard (who was the leader of a nation) I made through the test twice, once I got a 46, once I got a 136. This is based off of me trying to consider what's "unusual." In an Epic game, the characters almost certainly would be exceptional compared to most people. However, it being an Epic game, it is centered around a bunch of people who can do stuff like that.

In D&D, and probably other RPGs, defining what is "unusual" would be difficult. Settings are so large in RPGs, what is normal can vary wildly from place to place, and its not uncommon for the PCs to be in place where they are exceptional, and defend it from other things which are "exceptional." Then again, Mary Sues often have the world revolve around them, while in RPGs, the world quite literally revolves around the PCs.

TheThan
2015-02-08, 06:04 PM
A problem with many RPGs (especially fantasy ones), is that, by definition, the players are exceptional, and can do things almost no-one else can. I ran a 30th level gestalt wizard (who was the leader of a nation) I made through the test twice, once I got a 46, once I got a 136. This is based off of me trying to consider what's "unusual." In an Epic game, the characters almost certainly would be exceptional compared to most people. However, it being an Epic game, it is centered around a bunch of people who can do stuff like that.

In D&D, and probably other RPGs, defining what is "unusual" would be difficult. Settings are so large in RPGs, what is normal can vary wildly from place to place, and its not uncommon for the PCs to be in place where they are exceptional, and defend it from other things which are "exceptional." Then again, Mary Sues often have the world revolve around them, while in RPGs, the world quite literally revolves around the PCs.

OH yeah, this is why i didn't care too much for all the questions about the character's appearance. Appearance is a huge power fantasy. Everyone wants to look as good as the heroes they worship. Guys tend to want to look hansom and strong, woman tend to want to look beautiful and sexy. it's why your standard issue hollywood star is considered rather hansom/beautiful. You never see people who could be called ugly cast in heroic roles. So i give those questions a pass.

gom jabbarwocky
2015-02-08, 06:15 PM
Did your murderhobo PC face consequences for his anger issues, or did he get off easy? Was he in a Tabletop or a computer game?

Oh, totally. It was a tabletop game, and he wasn't a murderhobo - he owned a condo and had a steady job when he murdered people. The full story is much too long and complicated to describe here, but by the end of the game he had mellowed out considerably after 1; nearly dying in a overcomplicated plot to cover up his own murders 2; suffering a complete mental breakdown before being abducted by some random vampires (he got rescued) 3; turning himself over to the Technocracy after realizing what he had become. But, it's the World of Darkness, what do you expect?

Ninjadeadbeard
2015-02-08, 06:52 PM
My PF Rogue Tiefling got a 6 after de-Suers.

Hrm. :smallconfused:

Talakeal
2015-02-08, 11:54 PM
Warning, semi disjointed rant incoming:

The whole "Mary Sue" thing is grossly overblown these days, and has taken on so many side definitions that it is more or less meaningless.

To me a Mary Sue story really needs to be one in which a character who is a heck of a lot less interesting than the creator believes they are takes over the whole plot, especially when they are inserted into an existing universe.

To me the best example of a true Mary Sue in popular culture is the Resident Evil films. They take an existing franchise, filled with plenty of competent and interesting characters on its own (any of who would probably score very high on the litmus test themselves), and make it so the whole storyline revolves around Alice who takes over the narrative of the games while the stories original protagonists stand around being useless and needing Alice to constantly save them. This is the sort of thing that the original "Mary Sue" story was mocking, and is rampant in fan fiction, but not so much with original characters in original material.

So many people get fixated on character power that they think being competent or special is a bad thing. Now, you can have stupid power fantasies where the main character doesn't do anything to actually make themselves stand out as special, overcome every obstacle with trivial ease, and otherwise don't show themselves as "worthy" of their status, but these are few and far between in professionally published works. I don't think something like The Matrix, Superman, or Thor falls into this category even though it involves a special snowflake protagonist who is all but omnipotent.

I also agree that being good looking is weighed too heavily. While I agree that it is a strong Mary Sue indicator, the sheer volume of questions on the subject is sure to launch any attractive character heavily into Sue category. As TheThan said, this is far too common a trait to be so heavily implied.

Its also weird that the test doesn't account for genre. For example, being able to take 5 security guards in a fight would be pretty strange on, say a drama or rom-com, but I would be fairly surprised if any given action movie protagonist COULDN'T do this.

The test is also weird in that it doesn't have degrees. Someone who puts a red streak in their hair for Halloween is just as bad as someone who has naturally bright pink hair for no reason.


Also, I once saw a much simpler and imo more accurate Mary Sue litmus test: One question; does your character have purple eyes?

goto124
2015-02-09, 12:04 AM
Indeed, that is much more like 'dip the paper, does it turn red or blue or purple?' :smallbiggrin:

Othniel
2015-02-09, 12:10 AM
I tend to have the opposite problem with my characters. I find that I am often overly-concerned about making a "Mary Sue" (or in my case, a "Marty Stu") character, and end up with a boring character with little, if anything, to make him interesting.

It's OK to have your protagonist be "The Chosen One" sometimes. That makes stories fun.

Lord Lemming
2015-02-09, 03:18 AM
OK, villain sue might be pushing it, I'll retract that. I recently read the trilogy myself for the first time to see what the fuss was about, and I can't say I was impressed. Thinking about it some more, I'm not sure if we see enough of Thrawn's personality at all. A lot is made of his not wholly human looks (in a universe with plenty of alien-looking aliens), an ability to read way too much into art, military genius, and oddly fanatical devotion to a dead Emperor.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this :smallfrown:

I'm not sure whether it makes him a villain sue or not, but it seemed to me as though the only reason any of his plans in those three books ever failed was because his opponents were the Skywalker clan. Baddassery and plot armor enough to shatter an empire aren't something that any amount of tactical genius can overcome for long.

Talakeal
2015-02-09, 03:21 AM
Another weird thing about the test; the longer your story is (or the more stories the character appears in) the higher the score will be as a lot of the questions are asked in a way that means if you ever do something you get points. A character who is only seen in a 5 page short story vs. the protagonist of a dozen novels are going to have a much different scope of experiences to draw from.

Oneris
2015-02-09, 03:38 AM
Another weird thing about the test; the longer your story is (or the more stories the character appears in) the higher the score will be as a lot of the questions are asked in a way that means if you ever do something you get points. A character who is only seen in a 5 page short story vs. the protagonist of a dozen novels are going to have a much different scope of experiences to draw from.

The questions are probably asking about the overall pattern, and not a one-off instance. If your character did something terrible and was forgiven instantly once, but the rest of the time his mistakes came with reasonable consequences, then it doesn't count. If your character regularly gets forgiven for horrible crimes regardless of circumstance, then your character may be a sue.

While it is mostly a comic parodying the Mary Sue phenomenon, Ensign Sue Must Die (http://interrobangstudios.com/comics-display.php?strip_id=989) gives a pretty good argument for the difference between a Sue and a well written but exceptionally capable character in the Second and Third arcs, along with a very solid plot.

Talakeal
2015-02-09, 03:48 AM
The questions are probably asking about the overall pattern, and not a one-off instance. If your character did something terrible and was forgiven instantly once, but the rest of the time his mistakes came with reasonable consequences, then it doesn't count. If your character regularly gets forgiven for horrible crimes regardless of circumstance, then your character may be a sue.

While it is mostly a comic parodying the Mary Sue phenomenon, Ensign Sue Must Die (http://interrobangstudios.com/comics-display.php?strip_id=989) gives a pretty good argument for the difference between a Sue and a well written but exceptionally capable character in the Second and Third arcs, along with a very solid plot.

I don't know, the author says to check boxes even if they are only technicalities, so I can't imagine infrequent occurrences wouldn't count under that standard.

Reading comic now... will comment later.

SiuiS
2015-02-09, 04:05 AM
159 points as an epic level wizard I've been playing for the last twenty years. XD

rweird
2015-02-09, 07:18 AM
Another weird thing about the test; the longer your story is (or the more stories the character appears in) the higher the score will be as a lot of the questions are asked in a way that means if you ever do something you get points. A character who is only seen in a 5 page short story vs. the protagonist of a dozen novels are going to have a much different scope of experiences to draw from.

Very true. I think most protagonists would have pretty sue-ish scores. The longer the series, the more sue-ish they probably become.

In RPGs, one of the major problems with Sues is that they take the spotlight from the players, and do things themselves, rather than letting the players play, however, the test does not distinguish the PCs and NPCs taking over the spotlight.

Segev
2015-02-09, 08:46 AM
The reason most Sue tests try to tell you to click answers as "yes" even if it's "just a technicality" is to combat the test-taker's tendency to want to minimize his character's "Sue score."

These tests tend to be rife with false positives in their zeal to avoid false negatives, I think. Given their purpose - to get writers to "realize" the problems with their characters - this is understandable. Not good, but understandable.

WarKitty
2015-02-09, 09:18 AM
Its also weird that the test doesn't account for genre. For example, being able to take 5 security guards in a fight would be pretty strange on, say a drama or rom-com, but I would be fairly surprised if any given action movie protagonist COULDN'T do this.

Good heavens, I ran one of my bard characters through this test...35. And half the questions I answered yes to were just what a bard does. Of course I speak a bunch of languages, am really good at singing and playing, and can make people like me or even control them. It's just what the class does. And that's for a paladin who was explicitly written as not being good looking.

Segev
2015-02-09, 10:16 AM
Yep. RPG charcters often trip high scores in these because the mechanics give them those abilities. And if you play a character that is genuinely a joy for others' characters to interact with...well, you'll hit every "people love him" option, too.

Recall, again, that these are designed for fiction where the creator of the character also controls the reactions of all other characters to said character. When other real human beings' opinions start entering in - including the actions of a GM or a game designer - it skews it hard.

Lord Torath
2015-02-09, 12:37 PM
For my PCs and NPCs, I didn't mark anything that was a standard ability of the class. So my ranger didn't trip the Animal Companion points, even though he's got a cave bear and 3 eagles. My mage with an owl familiar also didn't count. My fighter/mage with a charmed Dire Wolf, however, did. Most of my characters ended up in the 8-15 range by following those guidelines.

sakuuya
2015-02-09, 02:27 PM
For my PCs and NPCs, I didn't mark anything that was a standard ability of the class. So my ranger didn't trip the Animal Companion points, even though he's got a cave bear and 3 eagles. My mage with an owl familiar also didn't count. My fighter/mage with a charmed Dire Wolf, however, did. Most of my characters ended up in the 8-15 range by following those guidelines.

Yeah, this is the correct way to deal with this sort of thing. The test actually says so (bolding mine):


Answer all questions for which the answer is 'yes' or 'technically yes' unless the item mentioned is so commonplace in the universe you are writing for that it doesn't really make your character remarkable or unusual.

I've always taken this to mean commonplace for protagonist-y folks--for instance, if you're playing Vampire: The Masquerade, you don't need to check off points for being a vampire even though most people in that world, statistically speaking, are not vampires. Being a vampire is baked into the game's premise. So it is for people with PC classes.

Yora
2015-02-09, 02:56 PM
Jedi are also good examples. They are very rare, have very special powers, and come with a special weapon and automatic reverance by most people. But for a protagonist in a Star Wars story, it's not at all unusual.

Segev
2015-02-09, 03:57 PM
Jedi are also good examples. They are very rare, have very special powers, and come with a special weapon and automatic reverance by most people. But for a protagonist in a Star Wars story, it's not at all unusual.

And yet, a lot of protagonists in Star Wars aren't even Force-sensitive. This is one you've gotta be careful of, because...well, is it sue-ish to play a mage in D&D? (That's what playing a Force-user equates to, I think.)

oxybe
2015-02-09, 04:45 PM
Ran my 2 pathfinder characters into it.

The level 6 Kitsune Ninja/Tattooed sorcerer got a 28. This is our "off campaign", what we play when the main one can't happen.

The level 14 Tiefling Synergist Witch scored a 35, though this is after what...Looking at the campaign wiki, the first recorded session was on October 12 2012... so almost two and a half years. Not quite surprised, knowing the type of stuff high level PCs get into.

The character I'm making for the FFG Star Wars game is currently a 6, but that's likely because the game is pretty far off and I haven't gotten past the "Owes a Life-Debt to another PC for getting him of Kashyyyk sometimes after Ep.5 and is pretty peeved off where the Empire is concerned" description.

sakuuya
2015-02-09, 05:03 PM
And yet, a lot of protagonists in Star Wars aren't even Force-sensitive. This is one you've gotta be careful of, because...well, is it sue-ish to play a mage in D&D? (That's what playing a Force-user equates to, I think.)

I think it depends on the game. Jedi are a special case because of how rare they're supposed to be, canonically, and how centralized they are. So if you're in a place where Jedi would be common--if the game is about negotiating trade disputes, say--then it's not Sueish to be a Jedi, because that is apparently something they do. If it's a game about outer rim scoundrels, then most PCs have probably never even seen a Jedi, let alone have training as one. In that case, being a Jedi is a Sueish characteristic because it breaks the established scope of the game.

In D&D 3.5*, meanwhile, every 40-person thorpe has a 50% chance of having a wizard or sorcerer in it, according to the tables in the DMG. Every 1000-person town has at least one of each and may have up to 15 of each. That makes them pretty darn common.

*I'm using 3.5 because I have the DMG on hand; these numbers probably don't carry over to other editions.

Knaight
2015-02-09, 05:30 PM
For fun, here are some archetypical characters, using one interpretation of them:
Batman (Christopher Nolan): 59
Arthur (Le Morte d'Arthur): 26
Cassandra (The Illiad): 16

There are some interesting results here. For instance, Cassandra gets dinged for being part of a prophecy, even though said prophecy involves nobody listening to her, and everyone in the city being massacred (including her). She also gets dinged for habitually sharing wisdom, even though it went approximately nowhere fast. The whole "excalibur" thing barely affected Arthur. The test in general really comes down hard on even a slight romantic/appearance edge, where fulfilling a prophecy through getting a sword nobody can get, becoming king, getting another magical sword, and being given a quest by god apparently doesn't affect you much. Still, the results aren't too bad - Cassandra is on point, Arthur is a bit low, Batman really does deserve that 59.

Now, time to run through an RPG character and see what happens.
Qaellynarius (Nar): -5

So, I'm inclined to agree with the people saying the test is skewed, I'm not so sure about it generally running high.

goto124
2015-02-09, 07:39 PM
Do describe your RPG character Nar please. It really helps to analyze the situation.

What level is Nar, what is her backstory, how long have you played her, what happened in the campaign, etc.

Sith_Happens
2015-02-09, 07:42 PM
One thing that the introduction to the test should really have specified with regards to RPG characters: Do not check off a question if the answer being "Yes" is an inevitable consequence of the game system or campaign premise. For example, if your character is past the early levels of any edition of D&D they're necessarily going to be one of the biggest badasses around, be fabulously wealthy, and likely be at least somewhat famous. So don't check any of those boxes.

Following the above advice myself, here's what I got for the three characters I've so far played for more than a session or two:

Mako Iroson, 9th level Human Wizard/War Weaver (D&D 3.5) -- 8. More or less as expected, this guy was absurdly normal (by Wizard standards at least) and kind of a doormat.

Shonen Seinenson, 7th level Human Warblade (D&D 3.5) -- 34. Also not surprising, considering he was designed as an affectionate parody of fantasy anime and JRPG protagonists.

Ozpin Dracarys, 11th level Draconic Spellscale Bard/Sublime Chord -- 53. Far too low. Half the things on this list are a Bard's job and I deliberately made Ozpin very, very good at his job. He should have at least a 70.:smalltongue:


Just for fun, I did myself, giving the either most permissive answers possibly when in doubt. I also refer to all other existing people as "canon characters".

I can with confidence say that I'm not basing my own looks on myself. I do however have my own name. :smalltongue:

I got 78, even after clicking pretty much every Desuifier. Guys, I think I'm a terrible Sue.

Ooh, let me try.
...
8 before filling out part three, 35 after (defining "canon characters" as "everyone").

BeerMug Paladin
2015-02-09, 09:51 PM
I think it would be helpful to describe why I made some choices I did for the character I put through the test.

The character in question is a teenage elven girl with two different colored eyes (and two distinct color hair tones), has access to healing magic from the god she worships and dabbles in arcane magic as well. There's other qualities to her as well, but I'll leave it at that.

Two differently colored eyes (and hair): not sue. This is a trait common to all elves within the setting, so it doesn't trip the "unusual physical features" bit of the test. As written, it would probably qualify as sue-ish if she didn't have these traits though (which is kind of funny).

Acess to healing magic: not sue. Sufficiently devoted followers of a god's philosophy are granted healing powers. It isn't uncommon within the setting for people to earn this distinction by about the mid teens.

Dabbles in arcane magic: sue. Arcane magic is very, very dangerous within the setting. It's supposed to be restricted and only taught to adults with sufficient mental discipline, so the fact she knows it at her age and practices it is a sue-ish trait.

I thought it would be good to go over this, because I don't think the test, as it is written, would make basic class features into sue indicators.

Knaight
2015-02-09, 09:53 PM
Do describe your RPG character Nar please. It really helps to analyze the situation.

What level is Nar, what is her backstory, how long have you played her, what happened in the campaign, etc.

In D&D terms she'd be roughly equivalent to a low-mid level fighter. Pretty high combat skills in a few ways, very large and brawny (think powerful build), and essentially a deliberate subversion of both the Amazonian aesthetic and of certain fantasy cultural tropes - hence the deliberately pretentious name, and pulling out the single least flattering nickname out of there. She's generally well liked, a generally sociable and agreeable person, and dumb as a rock. There's a mix of general cluelessness (seeing a picture of her, promoting a "safari" that she was in, and commenting on how "she looks kind of like me"), illiteracy, innumeracy (accidentally giving someone half of a chunk of money, saying it was their third, and correcting it to their seventh because there was only half to split between the three of them anyways; being blatantly cheated on money several times).

Basically, there's a deliberate mix of archetypes, deliberately taken to some degree of extremes to get me out of the guile hero rut. She makes bad decisions, she isn't amazingly powerful, she isn't amazingly beautiful, there are people who dislike her for entirely legitimate reasons, and all of that along with being dumb as a rock contributed to getting an outright negative score on the test.

Hiro Protagonest
2015-02-09, 10:03 PM
Its also weird that the test doesn't account for genre. For example, being able to take 5 security guards in a fight would be pretty strange on, say a drama or rom-com, but I would be fairly surprised if any given action movie protagonist COULDN'T do this.

Yeah. When I ran an Exalted character through, I just decided that "five armed guards" meant "five exalts" rather than "five extras (or even named mortals) with guns".

Talakeal
2015-02-09, 10:28 PM
So I ran my Mage character through this and got 127.


Boy, I sure chose the wrong spheres to specialize in, I think I got about 50 points for having Mind and Life magic, I would have been much better off teleporting around shooting fireballs and travelling through time as apparently those aren't sue traits.

Also, I think I got about 20 points because I have a ritual dagger as a family heirloom. The test does not like that one bit.

Any idea why healing people is rated so high? Supernatural talents aside, she checked a lot of boxes simply because she has a doctor for her day job. I guess this an impressive and well paid / respected job, but not significantly more so than any other job that requires post graduate education. I am guessing it is because healers typically fall into some sort of religious savior allegory?


As for the rest, I would say at least three out of every four questions were only technicalities or things that have happened occasionally in the 15 years I have been player the character despite not being anywhere near the norm.



Edit: I also finished read Ensign Sue Must Die. Although I get what the author is seeing, I am still not sure if I understand the rationale as to why some characters qualify as a sue and others don't. I do find it impressive that they made Mary Sue a likeable character by the end, even if she was stuck with the most butt ugly (imo) color palette. Also, the comic was worth the read solely for Le Cutest of Beagle, my new favorite character in all of Star Trek.

gom jabbarwocky
2015-02-10, 10:41 AM
So I ran my Mage character through this and got 127.

Boy, I sure chose the wrong spheres to specialize in, I think I got about 50 points for having Mind and Life magic, I would have been much better off teleporting around shooting fireballs and travelling through time as apparently those aren't sue traits.

Also, I think I got about 20 points because I have a ritual dagger as a family heirloom. The test does not like that one bit.

Any idea why healing people is rated so high? Supernatural talents aside, she checked a lot of boxes simply because she has a doctor for her day job. I guess this an impressive and well paid / respected job, but not significantly more so than any other job that requires post graduate education. I am guessing it is because healers typically fall into some sort of religious savior allegory?

My Mage PC was a Time dude - I got points for going back in time and undoing some people's deaths, essentially "bringing them back from the dead". And I figure Wonders and unique foci are supposed to play on those tropes, so that's not surprising.

The healing fixation is a good question though. I think you're right when you point out that it has religious significance. It's a standard miracle for saints and stuff to heal people instantly by laying on hands. I guess in sue-logic, the character is sooo pure that they can cure people just by giving them a poke, although in any RPG healing powers are generally handy. Having a party healer is more pragmatic than saintly, although in D&D the healer is usually supposed to be of a religious persuasion.

On a semi-related note, why does it seem that so many WoD characters take day jobs as doctors or medical professionals? Maybe that's just my experience.

Segev
2015-02-10, 10:49 AM
The reason "healing powers" are valued so high in Mary Sue tests is that "Fix Fic" Sues are one of the more common types, and tend to be among the most obnoxious in fanfic. Therefore, test-writers are trying to weed those out very firmly.

The reason they're so irritating is that they tend to come into a setting and use their magical healing powers to remove character-defining wounds, injuries, or deformities from canon characters, often as a way to make said character so grateful to the Sue that they'll be her boyfriend/best friend/devoted follower.

In freeform massive multiplayer RPGs (usually forum games or the like), they're particularly despised because they waltz in and magically heal character-defining imperfections on other PCs. Things which the PC would have little reason to refuse to have healed, but which the PLAYER doesn't want healed because it's part of what makes the character interesting to them.

For the latter sort, look up the livejournal community "bad_rpers_suck;" it has a lot of stories about this sort of thing (not to mention a lot of bad character submissions to all sorts of games).

Talakeal
2015-02-10, 05:10 PM
The reason "healing powers" are valued so high in Mary Sue tests is that "Fix Fic" Sues are one of the more common types, and tend to be among the most obnoxious in fanfic. Therefore, test-writers are trying to weed those out very firmly.

The reason they're so irritating is that they tend to come into a setting and use their magical healing powers to remove character-defining wounds, injuries, or deformities from canon characters, often as a way to make said character so grateful to the Sue that they'll be her boyfriend/best friend/devoted follower.

In freeform massive multiplayer RPGs (usually forum games or the like), they're particularly despised because they waltz in and magically heal character-defining imperfections on other PCs. Things which the PC would have little reason to refuse to have healed, but which the PLAYER doesn't want healed because it's part of what makes the character interesting to them.

For the latter sort, look up the livejournal community "bad_rpers_suck;" it has a lot of stories about this sort of thing (not to mention a lot of bad character submissions to all sorts of games).

I am going to take an opposite stance. Lot's of fictional universes have to remain "static" for no good reason. In magical / sci fi / super hero universes should be able to heal most anyone disability but just don't for no reason. You have a whole lot of the "Reed Richards is useless" stuff running around, and no one ever dies. Heroes and villains always spare one another for no reason, and anyone who is killed magically comes back a few years later.

Fan Fiction is a great place to explore consequences for actions and then actually proceed logically and explore the ramifications of a setting.

For example, in Star Wars episode II they are capable of whipping up an entire legion of competent, healthy, adult clones from a single individual in under 10 years. Yet when someone gets their hand chopped of the only thing they can do is give them a weird robotic prosthetic that looks primitive even by 21st century standards. That does not add up, there is no good reason they shouldn't be able to recreate a synthetic hand which is almost indistinguishable from his natural tissue.

On a related note I remember playing in a D&D game where someone was playing Lina Inverse from Slayers. She would constantly whine about being flat chested and wishing she had a bigger bust. I was playing a transmute and offered to alter her figure for her, and then the player had to come up with all sorts of strained excuses for her to refuse, because being a flat chested girl who wished she was voluptuous was part of the character, playing a chesty girl was not.


My Mage PC was a Time dude - I got points for going back in time and undoing some people's deaths, essentially "bringing them back from the dead". And I figure Wonders and unique foci are supposed to play on those tropes, so that's not surprising.

The healing fixation is a good question though. I think you're right when you point out that it has religious significance. It's a standard miracle for saints and stuff to heal people instantly by laying on hands. I guess in sue-logic, the character is sooo pure that they can cure people just by giving them a poke, although in any RPG healing powers are generally handy. Having a party healer is more pragmatic than saintly, although in D&D the healer is usually supposed to be of a religious persuasion.

On a semi-related note, why does it seem that so many WoD characters take day jobs as doctors or medical professionals? Maybe that's just my experience.

I personally chose a doctor because I wanted to go with a Jack the Ripper vibe for her and thanks to the popularity of From Hell and similar works that was the prevailing theory at the time.

BeerMug Paladin
2015-02-10, 09:08 PM
On a related note I remember playing in a D&D game where someone was playing Lina Inverse from Slayers. She would constantly whine about being flat chested and wishing she had a bigger bust. I was playing a transmute and offered to alter her figure for her, and then the player had to come up with all sorts of strained excuses for her to refuse, because being a flat chested girl who wished she was voluptuous was part of the character, playing a chesty girl was not.

That was an important aspect for the character? She couldn't, say, just become insecure and unhappy with another aspect of her life? Wow, what a flat character concept.

golentan
2015-02-10, 09:18 PM
As Hiro implies, this test is unfairly biased against the Exalted. :smalltongue:

goto124
2015-02-10, 09:26 PM
That was an important aspect for the character? She couldn't, say, just become insecure and unhappy with another aspect of her life? Wow, what a flat character concept.

I see the pun!

Maybe not objectively important, but it was important to the player. My character wears a bikini into battle, and I won't want to change that because that's how it is, and it just doesn't feel right if she starts wearing proper armor.

It's really about emotional attachment, which is why it's a bit silly.

In a freeform, I would have healing spells not work. Sue tried to heal my PC's characteristic scar? Nope, nothing happens. Why? Does it matter? It's freeform, and it's not a 'dodge every attack' kind of thing.

You could also have the effect be temporary. She gains a few cup sizes... for about an hour, and then those assets shrink back to normal size :smallbiggrin:

Talakeal
2015-02-10, 09:50 PM
I see the pun!

Maybe not objectively important, but it was important to the player. My character wears a bikini into battle, and I won't want to change that because that's how it is, and it just doesn't feel right if she starts wearing proper armor.

It's really about emotional attachment, which is why it's a bit silly.

In a freeform, I would have healing spells not work. Sue tried to heal my PC's characteristic scar? Nope, nothing happens. Why? Does it matter? It's freeform, and it's not a 'dodge every attack' kind of thing.

You could also have the effect be temporary. She gains a few cup sizes... for about an hour, and then those assets shrink back to normal size :smallbiggrin:

If its just a scar why not simply tell the healer no, you look the scar because it gives you a distinctive look?

Making yourself magically immune to shape-changing magic is almost a Sue trait in and of itself, and can easily stomp on other people's character concepts.

Hiro Protagonest
2015-02-10, 10:05 PM
As Hiro implies, this test is unfairly biased against the Exalted. :smalltongue:

Yeah. Take a question about fighting: "Beats more armed forces than you can count on one hand in a single go" uh, that's why extras exist. To be punching bags. Also, the part where they don't necessarily look really strong but are - I could totally buy an exalt's strength being semi-magical. Hell, considering how physical stats of 6+ dots work, literally being only available to those with a high enough Essence, I think you've clearly left "muscle" territory by that point.

Exaltation whisking you away from your old life is also a good source of introspective conflict about how you are cursed with awesome.

Technically not required for Exalted characters, but since Appearance is the best social stat people will often max it out, and even though it's not necessarily attractiveness (it represents your ability to make a good impression without speaking... and since body language is used in literally every face-to-face interaction that makes it really strong), it's basically the general assumption unless otherwise stated. :smallamused: Of course, I agree with TheThan on this, in RPGs having a character who's really handsome/beautiful isn't that unusual as it's a common fantasy along with being stronger than IRL or able to cast spells.

Citrakayah
2015-02-11, 01:03 AM
My character's a wizard. I'd be lucky to get less than 30 from class alone.

Edit: I literally took the test only checking what a level 8-15 wizard would fulfill and got at least 70.

I took the test for a wizard/kitsune trickster (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1106096) gestalt and got an... 8. I think you may have overestimated what wizards are capable of. And yes, that's a level 4 character, but even at level 8, or higher levels, the existence of a saving throw counts as a possibility of failure.

gom jabbarwocky
2015-02-11, 03:35 PM
If its just a scar why not simply tell the healer no, you look the scar because it gives you a distinctive look?

For some characters, I can understand turning down the healer. It reminds me of something I read once about Stephen Hawking, and how a few years ago he was told he could get a new voice machine that sounded more natural and had a British accent. He turned them down because after using that robot voice for so long, he had come to own it. There's also Mikhail Gorbachev, who was given the opportunity to surgically remove his distinctive port-wine birthmark, but rejected it because he believed it would be a sign of vanity. For these people who live public lives, these quirks and imperfections become shorthand for their identity to millions of people.

However, I get the feeling that a lot of players don't want their PCs' distinctive injuries healed because they give them something to be dramatic about.

Segev
2015-02-11, 03:39 PM
The "more natural voice" or removing that birthmark would not really improve the quality of live of those individuals; Stephen Hawking would still suffer the ravages of his condition, and Gorbechev really doesn't suffer any indignity for his birthmark. Given that the traits are also identifying characteristics, it is not surprising they might identify WITH them more than feel they suffer from them.

I imagine that, if Professor Hawking were offered a cure for his condition, he would absolutely take it. It would greatly improve the quality of his life.

Michael7123
2015-02-13, 11:56 AM
Score of 27 for my (currently) Chaotic Evil Tiefling rogue.

This is probably a bit inflated, as I choose all his non human features as being human anomalies (I forget the exact question number), and he knows 4 languages other than common.

I'll do my true Nuetral Dread Necromancer later.

Oneris
2015-02-13, 12:57 PM
I took the test again for my Incantatrix character and still got 40+.

+7 points for being a wizard with a base Int of 20 (5 from languages alone)
+3 points for the player wanting to know magic and wear robes in real life (who doesn't?)
+17 points for being a villain's favorite slave before the heroes mislead her into getting him killed.
+5 points for the favoritism turning out to be nepotism after all.
-13 from de-suifiers as a result of the brainwashing
+? from unknown sources or PC traits
Numbers might not add up due to score weighting.

This test is slowly convincing me she's a Mary Sue, even though my GM and fellow players seem to disagree...

Segev
2015-02-13, 01:19 PM
The test is horribly flawed when dealing with RPG characters in standard TTRPGs. Even its RPG section is more geared towards multi-fandom massive freeform RPGs.

Knaight
2015-02-13, 02:10 PM
+7 points for being a wizard with a base Int of 20 (5 from languages alone)

The languages bit is kind of screwy anyways - I suspect it's an American bias. Being monolingual is particularly common in the U.S., and command of a second language is notable. Getting more than two is really significant, so it's going to be marked as a sue trait from a U.S. background. Meanwhile in lots of non-Anglophone countries, the local language plus English is highly prevalent. Third and fourth languages are hardly uncommon in lots of them.

Oneris
2015-02-13, 02:35 PM
The languages bit is kind of screwy anyways - I suspect it's an American bias. Being monolingual is particularly common in the U.S., and command of a second language is notable. Getting more than two is really significant, so it's going to be marked as a sue trait from a U.S. background. Meanwhile in lots of non-Anglophone countries, the local language plus English is highly prevalent. Third and fourth languages are hardly uncommon in lots of them.

(I actually subtracted 2 from that score, since I didn't include the Undercommon and Elven that drow get. (Eberron drow, so not Drizzt clone!))

Even so, the number of bilingual immigrant children is increasing, and American school systems typically force a language or two on you (as I'm currently lamenting in college), so I doubt knowing 2 languages over your first should be a sue trait. Fluency and mastery of colloquialisms is probably a bigger determinant of sue-ness. If you can speak multiple foreign languages indistinguishably from a native, you might be a sue.

Segev
2015-02-13, 03:24 PM
If you can speak multiple foreign languages indistinguishably from a native, you might be a sue.

Even here, most RPG systems don't measure fluency - you know a language or you do not. (There are systems which do; Paladium is the first that comes to my mind. But many do not; D&D certainly doesn't.) So it's not a sueish trait to have multiple languages fluent as, say, a D&D character.

sakuuya
2015-02-13, 04:19 PM
Even here, most RPG systems don't measure fluency - you know a language or you do not. (There are systems which do; Paladium is the first that comes to my mind. But many do not; D&D certainly doesn't.) So it's not a sueish trait to have multiple languages fluent as, say, a D&D character.

And even for the ones that do, I don't think it's a Sueish trait. I'm not familiar with Paladium, but in GURPS, it costs points to learn languages beyond a character's birth languages, and points a character spends on languages are points he can't spend elsewhere.

I do think this test is a useful tool for the stuff it covers (fiction and free-form RPGs), but holy crap is it terrible for TTRPGs where abilities are either defined and common (in class-based systems) or require a power trade-off (in point-based ones) where characters who are good at one thing automatically have to be worse at something else.

Knaight
2015-02-13, 04:34 PM
Even so, the number of bilingual immigrant children is increasing, and American school systems typically force a language or two on you (as I'm currently lamenting in college), so I doubt knowing 2 languages over your first should be a sue trait. Fluency and mastery of colloquialisms is probably a bigger determinant of sue-ness. If you can speak multiple foreign languages indistinguishably from a native, you might be a sue.

There's some mandatory classes in foreign languages, but actual fluency because of them is fairly rare. I know a handful of people who hit fluency because of them, and a lot more who got half decent then forgot everything. People who grew up around multiple languages being bilingual is far more common. I at least assumed the test was asking about fluency, for which having 3+ languages as a sue trait in the context of a U.S. bias makes sense.

The linear scaling is a bit odd though. There's a much bigger diference between being monolingual and bilingual than between bilingual and trilingual, and past that point there's more variation as people who are really good with languages can pick up a fair few. I have a friend who's fluent in about a dozen, and decent in another half dozen; I know several people who are pretty good with about five. A few points from being like that first friend is understandable (she picks up actual languages the way programmers pick up programming languages, and actual languages tend to have somewhat larger vocabularies, more complex structures, idiomatic expressions, etc.), a point for being bilingual is a load of B.S.

Sith_Happens
2015-02-13, 04:59 PM
So I ran my Mage character through this and got 127.


As Hiro implies, this test is unfairly biased against the Exalted. :smalltongue:


Yeah. Take a question about fighting: "Beats more armed forces than you can count on one hand in a single go" uh, that's why extras exist. To be punching bags. Also, the part where they don't necessarily look really strong but are - I could totally buy an exalt's strength being semi-magical. Hell, considering how physical stats of 6+ dots work, literally being only available to those with a high enough Essence, I think you've clearly left "muscle" territory by that point.
...
Of course, I agree with TheThan on this, in RPGs having a character who's really handsome/beautiful isn't that unusual as it's a common fantasy along with being stronger than IRL or able to cast spells.


I do think this test is a useful tool for the stuff it covers (fiction and free-form RPGs), but holy crap is it terrible for TTRPGs where abilities are either defined and common (in class-based systems) or require a power trade-off (in point-based ones) where characters who are good at one thing automatically have to be worse at something else.

Sounds like my sage advice bears repeating:


One thing that the introduction to the test should really have specified with regards to RPG characters: Do not check off a question if the answer being "Yes" is an inevitable consequence of the game system or campaign premise. For example, if your character is past the early levels of any edition of D&D they're necessarily going to be one of the biggest badasses around, be fabulously wealthy, and likely be at least somewhat famous. So don't check any of those boxes.

Talakiel, trying running your Mage through with that in mind and see what happens. In fact, you also seem to have missed the thing the test does say on the matter:


Answer all questions for which the answer is 'yes' or 'technically yes' unless the item mentioned is so commonplace in the universe you are writing for that it doesn't really make your character remarkable or unusual.

If you're playing Mage then "can do such-and-such magical and extremely powerful things" qualifies, at least relative to anyone who's a remotely significant character in the first place.

sakuuya
2015-02-13, 05:13 PM
Oh, no, Sith_Happens, I know. I quoted the salient bit of the test rules on page 2, in fact. I think the test is a bad tool for TTRPGs because so much of what it covers falls under the "usual for the world" exception in a TTRPG. Add in a GM (which makes it harder to steer the plot or NPCs toward one's character being the Specialest Snowflake) and a different social contract (in many freeform RPGs, characters can only die if their mun allows it, for instance, where in TTRPGs character death is often not under player control), very little of the test is useful when trying to gauge a TTRPG character's Sueishness.

Talakeal
2015-02-13, 05:47 PM
Sounds like my sage advice bears repeating:



Talakiel, trying running your Mage through with that in mind and see what happens. In fact, you also seem to have missed the thing the test does say on the matter:



If you're playing Mage then "can do such-and-such magical and extremely powerful things" qualifies, at least relative to anyone who's a remotely significant character in the first place.

I agree with your point, I was just taking the test straight to see what I would get. I don't seriously think choosing to play a mage in Mage is a Sue trait.


But I wouldn't qualify magical abilities as common place in the world; only about 1:10,000 people are awakened, only a portion of those learn the same spheres as I do, and very few mages actually get to higher level. Yes, among PCs it isn't uncommon, but in the world it does make for a very unusual character IMO.

Sith_Happens
2015-02-13, 06:09 PM
But I wouldn't qualify magical abilities as common place in the world; only about 1:10,000 people are awakened, only a portion of those learn the same spheres as I do, and very few mages actually get to higher level. Yes, among PCs it isn't uncommon, but in the world it does make for a very unusual character IMO.

Hence why I qualified that statement with "at least relative to anyone who's a remotely significant character in the first place." Actual Sueishness is, for the most part, a matter of how a given character interacts with and is treated by the story and other characters. As such, when taking a test like this one should treat "the world" as consisting of only those parts of itself with which the character in question is actually going to have meaningful interactions.

goto124
2015-02-13, 07:02 PM
I really wonder if there's a Mary Sue Test more geared towards TTRPGs. There has to be one out there...

Talakeal
2015-02-13, 07:05 PM
Hence why I qualified that statement with "at least relative to anyone who's a remotely significant character in the first place." Actual Sueishness is, for the most part, a matter of how a given character interacts with and is treated by the story and other characters. As such, when taking a test like this one should treat "the world" as consisting of only those parts of itself with which the character in question is actually going to have meaningful interactions.

I know. I would have done the same thing. But I was trying to follow the instructions given on the test as written.

BeerMug Paladin
2015-02-13, 07:09 PM
I agree with Sith. Within the context of a Mage game, the characters you're actually interacting with have similar sorts of powers, and there's nothing that exactly prevents them from taking the same list of powers as your character, your character might just happen to be the only one with that power around right now, but that power isn't special or unique. Others exist.

I think Sueness is highly context dependent. As in, the character alone cannot be interpreted as a Sue, but its larger context of how it fits in the surrounding setting and whether there are similar other characters. So, if the setting were a school for superheroes or a mundane medieval period drama, the same character could come across as non-Sue in one and Sue in the other.

Hiro Protagonest
2015-02-13, 09:06 PM
I really wonder if there's a Mary Sue Test more geared towards TTRPGs. There has to be one out there...

First question: "Are you not the gamemaster?" If you check the box, -1000 points.

sakuuya
2015-02-13, 09:33 PM
First question: "Are you not the gamemaster?" If you check the box, -1000 points.

Second Question: Are you sleeping with the gamemaster? If you check the box, plus, I dunno, like 1010?

GrayGriffin
2015-02-13, 10:14 PM
Remember how it says not to check the "is your character royalty" box if your story is specifically about royalty? I think you could apply that same basic premise to a lot of the questions about traits that are technically rare but a big focus of the game.

Michael7123
2015-02-14, 12:36 PM
27 for my TN dread necromancer.

ValarMorgulis
2015-02-14, 01:27 PM
Also, I once saw a much simpler and imo more accurate Mary Sue litmus test: One question; does your character have purple eyes?

Daenerys Targaryen has purple eyes. Is she a Mary Sue?

Arbane
2015-02-14, 03:51 PM
Daenerys Targaryen has purple eyes. Is she a Mary Sue?

Eh, to quote someone talking about Game of Thrones, "There's three different campaigns with different rules sets in Game of Thrones. The guys on the Wall are playing AD&D, most of the cast is playing RuneQuest or something similarly gritty, and Daenerys is playing Exalted."

Illogictree
2015-02-14, 09:54 PM
I've heard it's not uncommon for albino humans to have purple eyes rather than red.

Now, if your character is albino purely for the sake of being unique and doesn't have to deal with the associated health effects, well...

Vknight
2015-02-15, 07:19 PM
Whoah my bounty hunter is only 12 points.

Also opinions on this little things length compared too accuracy

Jormengand
2015-02-16, 12:32 PM
Archaon, the Everchosen, the guy who's basically the four chaos gods' best buddy, got 77, beating me by only 10 points. Hmm.

Segev
2015-02-16, 01:49 PM
Segev - my necromancer PC who seems to be cursed never to be in a game that lasts for more than 4 sessions and from whom I took my online name - scores ludicrously high, mainly because of the obligatory boxes related to my using his name online.

The rest tends to be due to being younger than he looks (he looks middle aged most of the time, but that's due to abuse of youth potions and potions of longevity) and due to being a wizard.

Oddly, his family history pings almost negative. He grew up in a loving household with two younger siblings who respected him and with whom he got along. His family name - Stormlord - is inherited on his part. His parents "earned" it; one is a druid, and the other a wizard specializing in weather.

But being a competent wizard with a penchant for seeking to live forever and being your creator's favorite mask to wear online really throws you high up there. (Again, the problem of assuming that self-insert == sue, rather than merely acknowleding the high correlation.)

Talakeal
2015-02-16, 04:20 PM
Archaon, the Everchosen, the guy who's basically the four chaos gods' best buddy, got 77, beating me by only 10 points. Hmm.

Archaon isn't pretty though. I bet Sigvald would score way higher.

Jormengand
2015-02-16, 04:28 PM
Archaon isn't pretty though. I bet Sigvald would score way higher.

This is entirely true.

Yeah, this test is... just a little terrible.

Sith_Happens
2015-02-16, 04:32 PM
Also, I once saw a much simpler and imo more accurate Mary Sue litmus test: One question; does your character have purple eyes?

Heh, guilty as charged with my Warblade. Though once again, does it count if that character is an affectionate parody of various iconic anime and JRPG protagonists?:smallbiggrin:


Eh, to quote someone talking about Game of Thrones, "There's three different campaigns with different rules sets in Game of Thrones. The guys on the Wall are playing AD&D, most of the cast is playing RuneQuest or something similarly gritty, and Daenerys is playing Exalted."

This quote, I like it.

Vknight
2015-02-16, 04:51 PM
Heh, guilty as charged with my Warblade. Though once again, does it count if that character is an affectionate parody of various iconic anime and JRPG protagonists?:smallbiggrin:



This quote, I like it.

It's fine Sith purple eyes are anime and frankly its a game so getting upset over an eye colour is silly

I agree Sith this is great

Bucky
2015-02-17, 01:42 AM
Ran my most recently retired Pathfinder character through and got an 8, most of which came from 1.59.c and d (making mistakes that get people hurt/killed) without 1.59 (being easily forgiven for those mistakes is common for a PC).

Ran one of my original fiction protagonists through for comparison and got a 42 due to being foreign to the local setting, a complex relationship with the main villain, a super-OP magic artifact that he has before said villain steals it, and the term "Chosen One" being used ironically within the setting.

Dhavaer
2015-02-17, 05:53 AM
Just put my original fiction protagonist through and only got 17. I think her lack of angst worked out well for her.

Edit: tried with another character, got 28 despite being her backstory being an inverted changeling fantasy plus extra angst.

Citrakayah
2015-02-18, 07:49 PM
Archaon, the Everchosen, the guy who's basically the four chaos gods' best buddy, got 77, beating me by only 10 points. Hmm.

Can you post your method?

Jormengand
2015-02-18, 09:29 PM
Can you post your method?

Well, no, because I didn't save either of them (for me or Archaon).

Might re-do them tomorrow, though.

Ahh welp.

Pretending I'm from an original fic:

Part 1:
1acd 2 3 4abc 5b 10 11d 15 16 17abcd 24abd 25 27 28 31 33 42 43 44abc 45 46(*1)bd 48ab 56(*2) 57 58 61 66(Father) 67(Mother) 71 75j 78defghi 81f 82dgh 83 85c 89 95 96 97

Part 2:
1

Part 5:
1 2 5 6 8 10 14a 16 19 21 22 26 28

40K is more like original fic than any of the others.

Part 1:
1d 7 8b 11ddddd 14 15 18 22a 24abce 31 33 38(*1) 41ad 42 44ab 46(*8)abc 49 50bc 53 55 57 58 60 61 62abcdf 65 68 72 75be 81ag 82d 83 90 92

Part 2:
3

Part 5:
2, 4, 26

This time I actually got higher than Archaon. The fact that it depends what kind of mood you're in when you take the test is also quite telling. :smalltongue:

Admittedly I made a couple of guesses at Archaon because I don't know all his fluff, but still.