Challange, beat the caster.

[maniacalmojo]

So it is generally considered that full casters are really powerful but also that with significant optimization you can make generally anything. So i challenge the playground to have a build that can combat a full casting wizard while not being a full caster.


-Standard WBL for a level 20 charecter
-32 point buy base 8, no stats above 18
-All 3.5 books accepted
-2 traits
-2 flaws (any flaws published in books are acceptable)
-All races accepted
-One LA can be considered bought off
-Show the full build by level and list what level you got feats from and enhancements



-NO redundant posting about how only full casters can beat full casters
-Nothing from dragon magazine
-No full casting progression although you may have a full caster class as part of a build but spells out casting the opposing caster is not the point.



Note- The build should be able to be difficult for any caster but for ****s and giggles if you want a build consider the opposing wizard is a generalist elf wizard 20 with all feat slots being meta-magics.


EDIT- Assume this would fly by a normal DM and that the caster is the BBEG you will be fighting. So punpun shenanigans are out.

[mvpmack]

bard, rogue, expert or factotum with UMD of "Yes"

enough scrolls, staves, and wands to do literally anything a wizard, cleric, or druid could want to do

[Eldan]

Well, technically those restrictions allow Pun-pun, so...

[Nightraiderx]

"while not being a full caster"

so duskblade/bard/paladin/ranger and prc's that give partial casting are still on the table then?

[Killer Angel]

...I suppose that psionics is considered "cheating at the challenge", right? :smallwink:

[maniacalmojo]

"while not being a full caster"

so duskblade/bard/paladin/ranger and prc's that give partial casting are still on the table then?

Yup. Partial casters are fine


And i have never run a psionic so i have no idea but lets just assume no.

[Jack_Simth]

So it is generally considered that full casters are really powerful but also that with significant optimization you can make generally anything. So i challenge the playground to have a build that can combat a full casting wizard while not being a full caster.
You need to have a very specific caster (complete with spells known, spells prepared, items, standard buff routine, and usual tactics) for this to be meaningful. Without such a thing, you will get what amounts to the quantum argument - a well-built T-1 caster 20 is capable of preparing for pretty much anything... but (barring certain types of optimization that few DMs will allow in an actual game) is not capable of preparing for everything at once. Basically everyone will argue that of course they prepared for the one immediately proposed (because Wizards do that, don't you know). If this actually progresses, without a highly-specific build, this is how this will very likely go:

1) One person proposes some build or other.
2) Another person points out that a Wizard can handle that by way of such-and-such a spell combination or tactic (usually in a fairly vague manner).
3) Another person (possibly the first, possibly not) points out a way that can be handled (usually in a fairly vague manner).
4) Another person (possibly the second, possibly not) points out that a Wizard can handle that by way of such-and-such a spell combination or tactic (usually in a fairly vague manner).
5) Repeat 3 and 4 for a long time, with quite a few participants.
6) This decays into what amounts to a shouting match, which lasts until one side or the other gets bored and wanders off, or the mods intervene.

So in order for this to actually go anywhere, you need to have a very specific caster (complete with spells known, spells prepared, items, standard buff routine, and usual tactics).

[j_spencer93]

yay the guy above me is right actually. Without the wizard's complete stat block this quickly breaks down into an argument of "well if he had X he beats that'.

[Nightraiderx]

yay the guy above me is right actually. Without the wizard's complete stat block this quickly breaks down into an argument of "well if he had X he beats that'.

Ironically with that 'if he had x' he would need everything prepared, and it's hardly shown what a general caster would plan out to handle as many different situations as possible.

[Amphetryon]

You need to have a very specific caster (complete with spells known, spells prepared, items, standard buff routine, and usual tactics) for this to be meaningful. Without such a thing, you will get what amounts to the quantum argument - a well-built T-1 caster 20 is capable of preparing for pretty much anything... but (barring certain types of optimization that few DMs will allow in an actual game) is not capable of preparing for everything at once. Basically everyone will argue that of course they prepared for the one immediately proposed (because Wizards do that, don't you know). If this actually progresses, without a highly-specific build, this is how this will very likely go:

1) One person proposes some build or other.
2) Another person points out that a Wizard can handle that by way of such-and-such a spell combination or tactic (usually in a fairly vague manner).
3) Another person (possibly the first, possibly not) points out a way that can be handled (usually in a fairly vague manner).
4) Another person (possibly the second, possibly not) points out that a Wizard can handle that by way of such-and-such a spell combination or tactic (usually in a fairly vague manner).
5) Repeat 3 and 4 for a long time, with quite a few participants.
6) This decays into what amounts to a shouting match, which lasts until one side or the other gets bored and wanders off, or the mods intervene.

So in order for this to actually go anywhere, you need to have a very specific caster (complete with spells known, spells prepared, items, standard buff routine, and usual tactics).

There is much truth here. Additionally, reasonable indications of 'Option B, C, D, and E' should be given, so that build submissions don't devolve into folks pointing at a perceived weak point in the caster which was, in truth, already considered by the caster's creator.

[maniacalmojo]

If someone wants to build a generalist caster fairly quick then we can use that as a base.

[Uzgul]

If we can use the rules in the dmg to create magic items that replicate effects of spells, we just need a permanent ring of antimagic field.
That plus any lock down build plus natural flight should be able to beat pretty much any caster.

Considering i dont overlook something. (i am not that good at optimization)

[JusticeZero]

..permanent ring of antimagic field.. plus any lock down build plus natural flight should be able to beat pretty much any caster.
Considering i dont overlook something. (i am not that good at optimization)
The main thing you're missing is that high level casters have several ways to fight by remote control. The actual caster is in an inaccessible second location. Next is the fact that there are numerous effects that ignore an AMF, simply because the actual hurty bit is a non-magical effect that was put into motion a distance away.

[Flickerdart]

If we can use the rules in the dmg to create magic items that replicate effects of spells, we just need a permanent ring of antimagic field.
That plus any lock down build plus natural flight should be able to beat pretty much any caster.

Considering i dont overlook something. (i am not that good at optimization)
You overlook a whole bunch of things:
1) Magic gives you much faster speed than non-magical flight can.
2) Magic gives you great senses - sneaking up on a caster is no simple feat, nor is beating their initiative.
3) Magic also gives very good ranged attacks as a standard or even swift action, meaning that the caster is shooting you with deadly spells while you're chasing him.
4) With teleportation, magic can "cheat" maneuverability, while the fastest mundane fliers also have the worst maneuvering.
5) As soon as you fly up to a magical flyer with an AMF, his flight turns off, he falls outside of your range, and then his flight turns back on and he escapes.
6) Casters are rarely alone - it's very easy for a wizard to get undead, construct, outsider, or elemental minions, none of whom will have difficulty pulping you even inside an AMF.
7) There are a whole bunch of ways to cast inside of an AMF.
8) Lead cone trick.
9) Contingency.
10) Astral Projection clones.
11) Illusions - is the wizard really there at all, or just an image?
12) Non-flight movement modes - the wizard can take the fight underwater or underground, or become incorporeal and go inside of walls and stuff, can you follow?

[Twurps]

You overlook a whole bunch of things:
1) Magic gives you much faster speed than non-magical flight can.
2) Magic gives you great senses - sneaking up on a caster is no simple feat, nor is beating their initiative.
3) Magic also gives very good ranged attacks as a standard or even swift action, meaning that the caster is shooting you with deadly spells while you're chasing him.
4) With teleportation, magic can "cheat" maneuverability, while the fastest mundane fliers also have the worst maneuvering.
5) As soon as you fly up to a magical flyer with an AMF, his flight turns off, he falls outside of your range, and then his flight turns back on and he escapes.
6) Casters are rarely alone - it's very easy for a wizard to get undead, construct, outsider, or elemental minions, none of whom will have difficulty pulping you even inside an AMF.
7) There are a whole bunch of ways to cast inside of an AMF.
8) Lead cone trick.
9) Contingency.
10) Astral Projection clones.
11) Illusions - is the wizard really there at all, or just an image?
12) Non-flight movement modes - the wizard can take the fight underwater or underground, or become incorporeal and go inside of walls and stuff, can you follow?

13) time travel. somebody will bring up how the caster travels back in time, and kills the opponents parents.

[Flickerdart]

13) time travel. somebody will bring up how the caster travels back in time, and kills the opponents parents.
I'm not bringing up high-op spells like Teleport Through Time or COP abuse intentionally. Of course, there are many more unpleasant things a spellcaster can do to people they don't like.

[Jormengand]

Truenamer 20 can only cast 6th-level SLAs, and has 3/4 BAB, and so is clearly a gish. Unfortunately for you, one of its 4th-level SLAs happens to be Conjunctive Gate. Even less fortunately for you, assuming he hasn't even bumped his CL up at all, there is nothing to stop him setting a Paragon Solar Angel on you. Very unfortunately for you, that Paragon Solar Angel has the exact same casting as you (if you're a cleric; vaguely equivalent casting instead if you're a wizard) only it gets +15 to its caster level, +25 to its attack rolls, +15 to all its stats, and bonuses to just about everything else you could possibly want a bonus to. Its SR is over the moon (Its original CR +25, which is pretty nasty). Did I mention +10 to all its skill checks? Oh, and if the guy Caster Lenses himself and wears a few magic items, he can make the damned thing Pseudonatural on top of Paragon.

Also, go read Reversed Spell Rebirth. That thing is nasty, and the 'Namer can fire it off twice a round. Say goodbye to pretty much all of your high-level buffs. Or he can ready actions to end all the gate spells on the inevitable revenge-solars.

You're basically a cleric, fighting a cleric++ MK 3 Deluxe Edition with added Truenamer to stop you summoning any of your own cleric++ MK 3 Deluxe Editions. Basically, life sucks, there's only truenamers and you're probably going to be eaten by solars; have fun.

[Flickerdart]

Paragon Solar Angel
Unique creature, can't be gated in.

[kellbyb]

Unique creature, can't be gated in.

Not to mention that even if it's possible, the wizard can do it too.

[icefractal]

The problem is that in high-level D&D, a quantum build almost always beats a known build. And one or the other side is going to be quantum. If the Wizard is left un-statted, they can be "assumed" to have whatever spells they need to beat any given challenger. OTOH, if the Wizard is statted out, challengers will just be built to hit whatever weak spots were left in that process.

What would be interesting, although a giant endeavor that I'm not volunteering to run, is to stat up the Wizard but not tell people what those stats are. Then people start sending in challengers, the matches are run privately, and any info that losing challengers managed to disseminate about the Wizard is put back onto the thread. Then we measure how many attempts it takes before the Wizard is defeated.

Less ambitious but still a lot of work. Wizard is statted, but stats not posted. Challengers are sent and the fight is shown in the thread (assume that the gods or a rival are watching and giving the info to future challengers). Measure how many attempts it takes.

[Jormengand]

Unique creature, can't be gated in.

Are Paragon creatures really unique? Huh. Fine, I load it up with other templates.


Not to mention that even if it's possible, the wizard can do it too.

And I can Reversed Spell Rebirth them in the face, and I get about 50 more of them per day than him (barely even an exaggeration).

[Flickerdart]

Are Paragon creatures really unique? Huh. Fine, I load it up with other templates.
Custom creatures are unique. Adding any templates to a bog standard Solar makes it a unique Solar, because he is now different from regular non-unique Solars.

[Jormengand]

Custom creatures are unique. Adding any templates to a bog standard Solar makes it a unique Solar, because he is now different from regular non-unique Solars.

But there's presumably more than one Paragon Solar floating around, so that's not a Unique creature.

"If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures."

"A paragon solar angel" is a kind of creature. "Saint Kara, the paragon solar angel who serves Kayros, Lord of Words" is a known individual. The wording of Gate is pretty clear.

[Flickerdart]

But there's presumably more than one Paragon Solar floating around, so that's not a Unique creature.

"If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures."

"A paragon solar angel" is a kind of creature. "Saint Kara, the paragon solar angel who serves Kayros, Lord of Words" is a known individual. The wording of Gate is pretty clear.
That's not the part of the spell I'm referring to; the fact that I said "unique creature" and your quote doesn't have the word unique in it is kind of a hint. A paragon angel is a kind of creature, but it is also unique in its distinctness from solars in general; there is no category of generic "paragon angels" unless you want to pull out a Monster Manual and show me the entry.

[elonin]

Be anyone who can bluff their way into being a servant of the caster. Slit his throat in his sleep.

[Uzgul]

You overlook a whole bunch of things:
1) Magic gives you much faster speed than non-magical flight can.
2) Magic gives you great senses - sneaking up on a caster is no simple feat, nor is beating their initiative.
3) Magic also gives very good ranged attacks as a standard or even swift action, meaning that the caster is shooting you with deadly spells while you're chasing him.
4) With teleportation, magic can "cheat" maneuverability, while the fastest mundane fliers also have the worst maneuvering.
5) As soon as you fly up to a magical flyer with an AMF, his flight turns off, he falls outside of your range, and then his flight turns back on and he escapes.
6) Casters are rarely alone - it's very easy for a wizard to get undead, construct, outsider, or elemental minions, none of whom will have difficulty pulping you even inside an AMF.
7) There are a whole bunch of ways to cast inside of an AMF.
8) Lead cone trick.
9) Contingency.
10) Astral Projection clones.
11) Illusions - is the wizard really there at all, or just an image?
12) Non-flight movement modes - the wizard can take the fight underwater or underground, or become incorporeal and go inside of walls and stuff, can you follow?
Ok, you are right.

I guess I'm too used to the homebrew Item of my DM, that shuts down any magic and even the power of gods within a few miles...

[Jormengand]

That's not the part of the spell I'm referring to; the fact that I said "unique creature" and your quote doesn't have the word unique in it is kind of a hint. A paragon angel is a kind of creature, but it is also unique in its distinctness from solars in general; there is no category of generic "paragon angels" unless you want to pull out a Monster Manual and show me the entry.

"Unique" means a creature of whom there is only one, hence the near constant contrast between:

"a particular individual or kind of being"
"a particular being or kind of being"
"a kind of creature instead of a known individual"

"Deities and unique creatures" is clearly meant to be synonymous with "A particular individual", "A particular being", and "A kind of creature." Whether you like it or not, "Paragon Solar Angel" is a type of creature, and is in no way "Unique". It is a kind of being, not a particular individual or particular being; it is a kind of creature instead of a known individual. There is no reason to believe that "Unique" means "At all different from the one printed in the monster manual."

Incidentally, would you allow someone to call a pseudotroll? It's a troll with the pseudonatural creature template, but there's also an example entry to show you what the template does to a troll.

[Flickerdart]

Be anyone who can bluff their way into being a servant of the caster. Slit his throat in his sleep.
Unseen Servants can't turn against their master, and don't need to be paid or fed. What use does a caster have for flesh and blood assistants?


"Unique" means a creature of whom there is only one, hence the near constant contrast between:
[citation needed]

[Nightraiderx]

Be anyone who can bluff their way into being a servant of the caster. Slit his throat in his sleep.

Slits Fedora. Tips Throat.

[Jormengand]

[citation needed]

Here, let me Google that for you... (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Define+unique)

unique
juːˈniːk/Submit
adjective
1.
being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else.
"the situation was unique in British politics"
synonyms: distinctive, individual, special, especial, idiosyncratic, quirky, eccentric, isolated; More
antonyms: common, ordinary
belonging or connected to (one particular person, place, or thing).
"a style of architecture that is unique to Portugal"
synonyms: peculiar, specific, particular, found only in; More
particularly remarkable, special, or unusual.
"a unique opportunity to see the spectacular Bolshoi Ballet"
synonyms: remarkable, special, singular, noteworthy, notable, signal, outstanding, extraordinary; More
nounarchaic
noun: unique; plural noun: uniques
1.
a unique person or thing.
"some of Lamb's writings were so memorably beautiful as to be uniques in their class"

[Prime32]

Play a half-dragon half-elf with Nymph's Kiss and 5 levels in Exemplar. (http://www.ravenoaks.org/jim/3da/files/LUCK_OF_THE_DRAW.PDF)

[ranagrande]

Yeah, Diplomacy > spellcasting. I'd go with a Bard/Marshal/Evangelist personally.

[DMVerdandi]

Question.
Does Artificer work(back on the old artificer habit again...)?
Technically it is only a 5/9 caster. It does have AWESOME crafting potential, but technically is not a caster.

Play it ARCHER stylehttp://static.tumblr.com/a47c3c71e63776de18dab7752d675b96/5ttvxw3/ESSmi7uuj/tumblr_static_28630-fate-stay-night-archer.32b2588f0f375efae96da84628339faf.jpg

Use Archificer
Use Heroism to get feats necessary for archery
Have many scrolls for spells that you might need.
Use spectral weapon to create weapons out of thin air. Etc.

Or play any of the other various Artificer styles (meleeficer,Hordificer,Bufficer, wandificer etc.)


That has the potential to completely wreck a caster without actually being a "full caster"

[Flickerdart]

Here, let me Google that for you... (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Define+unique)
Referring to the dictionary for rules definitions is only slightly less flimsy than "because I say so."

I mean, if your DM rules "there are loads of solars with any combination of templates you want, feel free to gate whatever" then you could. But the Truenamer by himself has no way to make even one solar with the desired templates appear, much less multiples.

[EugeneVoid]

Yeah, if Magic Items don't count as casting, then Artificer can emulate a Wizard's tricks or even surpass them.

Its kinda cheaty though...

Try Rubik's Monk build, which is pretty good.

[ben-zayb]

For short, replicate at least one of a T1 caster's most powerful spells via UMD or SLAs.

[Anthrowhale]

The ExFighter in my sig doesn't quite qualify, because it uses dragon material. However, that is not essential---a slightly weaker version could qualify.

But, when you look at it, you'll see how extreme the optimization gets, including both attacks and defenses. At that level of optimization, you either have the key to attack or you don't---there is no form of partial victory or partial defeat.

Even given the extreme optimization, the ExFighter could only defeat an unprepared wizard. A prepared one can send in attacks from other planes, and ExFighter has no real method to trace them back. The best case scenario is survival.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The wizard Gates the ExFighter, commands him to assume a more vulnerable form then uses Trap the Soul on him. Expending his soul as a material component or for XP follows.

[DMVerdandi]

To further elaborate on my Artificer Suggestion, Instead of relying on immense crafting resources, Alternatively, you could work mostly off of infusions. Most of them take a standard action to cast, and they last a long time.

You can walk into a situation as an artificer with maybe an 15 minutes of prep time with nothing but a few mundane pieces of jewelry, and a mundane weapon, and some mundane armor, and give yourself some nicely enhanced pieces. Not overpowered, but definitely variable enough to fit any situation you have going on given that time to infuse.

Surely you could play rocket tag with a full caster using custom made magic items, but in the alternative, using the right bunch of infusions, you can nicely buff yourself into a decent melee fighter. I think it's a viable suggestion so long as the amount of crafted material one has is limited, and within reason.

Maybe a set amount of spells to be used through spell trigger items (like 8 spell trigger items max, regularly 5 or so). That keeps it in a limit which doesn't have the artificer overshadowing the caster as a caster, but keeps that armorer feel to it. This is a smith that adventures, rather than having an insane utility belt. It isn't about having an item for everything, but having equipment that they are skilled at using.

[Anthrowhale]

The wizard Gates the ExFighter, commands him to assume a more vulnerable form then uses Trap the Soul on him. Expending his soul as a material component or for XP follows.

Perhaps read more carefully? Step 1 fails two ways:
(1) Gate doesn't work that way on a unique individual.
(2) Gate doesn't work in an AMF.

[Jormengand]

Referring to the dictionary for rules definitions is only slightly less flimsy than "because I say so."

I mean, if your DM rules "there are loads of solars with any combination of templates you want, feel free to gate whatever" then you could. But the Truenamer by himself has no way to make even one solar with the desired templates appear, much less multiples.

But your entire argument is because you say so, so I guess I'm slightly less flimsy than you. There is no reason to read "Unique" as "Abnormal."

[mvpmack]

Artificer is effectively a full caster. Admittedly my UMD suggestion (any class can do it!) is not much better, but ANY class can beat a wizard if that class has a UMD of "Yes," as long as scrolls, staves, and wands are available. A wizard cannot prepare for everything, and on the defensive a wizard is considerably less dangerous.

Let's clarify the challenge here: it isn't whether the caster can beat you (or whether you can avoid getting killed). It's whether you can beat the caster, which by its nature suggests you are on the offensive. If the challenge was, "pick a class that is not a full caster, a wizard 20 is coming to kill you, try not to die," that would be a different story. It's basically impossible to avoid dying in those circumstances.

"Defeating" the wizard is actually easy; challenge him to a contest where he is compelled not to cheat, and beat him in that contest.

Killing the wizard honestly isn't that much harder. Gather information about him without him discerning your purpose. That isn't that hard; most wizards don't invest in Sense Motive or social interaction feats, and a level 20 character should be able to gather information on the wizard without anyone knowing. This is also where Leadership really helps, even avoiding the obvious (let's ignore level 18 wizard + level 20 your character vs. level 20 wizard), since you can use followers to split up the human resources involved in gathering enough info about the wizard to make a reliable guess about the wizard's capabilities. He might be on his own private demiplane or whatever, but that only empowers you; he's only a KS: Arcana or The Planes check away, and even if you don't know there's someone on your world who does. On the other hand, he might know you exist if you're an arcane spellcaster (like a bard), but he doesn't know that you're trying to kill him, and doesn't have any reason to believe you would if he's on his own private demiplane (or wizard tower or whatever, if he's keeping his roots "close to home."

Once you've got enough knowledge on a mortal target (say +60 or so), killing it is easy regardless of its level. Legend Lore will give you "detailed information" results, and with enough castings you can identify a moment of vulnerability, such as when the wizard will next astrally project. Once you know the when, just find the silver cord and sunder it with a githyanki silver sword, or alternatively with any ghost touch weapon (dependent on DM ruling). He dies and he never knew why; he can protect his body and his projection, but he can't protect the silver cord.

[Flickerdart]

But your entire argument is because you say so, so I guess I'm slightly less flimsy than you. There is no reason to read "Unique" as "Abnormal."
The rest of the post you quoted addresses that - even if you're right (which you're not) it's up to the DM to decide how many Pseudonatural Paragon Angels exist in the world. Could be loads. Could be one. Could be none.

[Jack_Simth]

You need to have a very specific caster (complete with spells known, spells prepared, items, standard buff routine, and usual tactics) for this to be meaningful. Without such a thing, you will get what amounts to the quantum argument - a well-built T-1 caster 20 is capable of preparing for pretty much anything... but (barring certain types of optimization that few DMs will allow in an actual game) is not capable of preparing for everything at once. Basically everyone will argue that of course they prepared for the one immediately proposed (because Wizards do that, don't you know). If this actually progresses, without a highly-specific build, this is how this will very likely go:

1) One person proposes some build or other.
2) Another person points out that a Wizard can handle that by way of such-and-such a spell combination or tactic (usually in a fairly vague manner).
3) Another person (possibly the first, possibly not) points out a way that can be handled (usually in a fairly vague manner).
4) Another person (possibly the second, possibly not) points out that a Wizard can handle that by way of such-and-such a spell combination or tactic (usually in a fairly vague manner).
5) Repeat 3 and 4 for a long time, with quite a few participants.
6) This decays into what amounts to a shouting match, which lasts until one side or the other gets bored and wanders off, or the mods intervene.

So in order for this to actually go anywhere, you need to have a very specific caster (complete with spells known, spells prepared, items, standard buff routine, and usual tactics).


If we can use the rules in the dmg to create magic items that replicate effects of spells, we just need a permanent ring of antimagic field.
That plus any lock down build plus natural flight should be able to beat pretty much any caster.

Considering i dont overlook something. (i am not that good at optimization)


The main thing you're missing is that high level casters have several ways to fight by remote control. The actual caster is in an inaccessible second location. Next is the fact that there are numerous effects that ignore an AMF, simply because the actual hurty bit is a non-magical effect that was put into motion a distance away.


Truenamer 20 can only cast 6th-level SLAs, and has 3/4 BAB, and so is clearly a gish. Unfortunately for you, one of its 4th-level SLAs happens to be Conjunctive Gate. Even less fortunately for you, assuming he hasn't even bumped his CL up at all, there is nothing to stop him setting a Paragon Solar Angel on you. Very unfortunately for you, that Paragon Solar Angel has the exact same casting as you (if you're a cleric; vaguely equivalent casting instead if you're a wizard) only it gets +15 to its caster level, +25 to its attack rolls, +15 to all its stats, and bonuses to just about everything else you could possibly want a bonus to. Its SR is over the moon (Its original CR +25, which is pretty nasty). Did I mention +10 to all its skill checks? Oh, and if the guy Caster Lenses himself and wears a few magic items, he can make the damned thing Pseudonatural on top of Paragon.

Also, go read Reversed Spell Rebirth. That thing is nasty, and the 'Namer can fire it off twice a round. Say goodbye to pretty much all of your high-level buffs. Or he can ready actions to end all the gate spells on the inevitable revenge-solars.

You're basically a cleric, fighting a cleric++ MK 3 Deluxe Edition with added Truenamer to stop you summoning any of your own cleric++ MK 3 Deluxe Editions. Basically, life sucks, there's only truenamers and you're probably going to be eaten by solars; have fun.


Unique creature, can't be gated in.
... and so on.

... that didn't take long, did it? Looks like we've at #5.

[Flickerdart]

... that didn't take long, did it? Looks like we've at #5.
Not sure how "you can't use Gate like that" is a wizard having an extremely specific counter prepared.

[Jack_Simth]

Not sure how "you can't use Gate like that" is a wizard having an extremely specific counter prepared.
I never said "extremely specific counter". Pointing out that a particular thing is only legal under some circumstances is, however, a tactic.

[Jormengand]

The rest of the post you quoted addresses that - even if you're right (which you're not) it's up to the DM to decide how many Pseudonatural Paragon Angels exist in the world. Could be loads. Could be one. Could be none.

"If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level."

"By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling."

As written, if you name a kind of creature, such as "Paragon Solar Angel", you will pull one through and you will control it, regardless of whether there is one such creature, seven, fourteen million or even zero. You will get one.

Also, it doesn't even have to be a paragon solar. Unless the DM decides that there are no high-level spellcasting creatures whatsoever on any other plane, you can get something that will help you. If you fail to utter, the Law of Resistance also doesn't apply, so you can keep trying indefinitely.

I mean, suppose your DM decides the upper planes are instead of angels full of Gold Dragons. You grab yourself an extraplanar Great Wyrm, and hope its 19th-level sorcerer casting backed up with infinite truenamer dispels, as well as all its spells being +2 CL, auto-empowered and auto-silenced, oh and by the way it's ethereal but can attack material opponents because truenamers are silly, as well as the Truenamer's ability to do utterly huge amounts of damage with empowered mortalbane reversed energy negation (after removing the wizard's immunity to, oh, let's say electricity), is enough to defeat the wizard. And if the wizard wants to do the same? Well, that'll cost him experience, and you can prepare an action to nuke the dragons off the face of the universe.


I never said "extremely specific counter". Pointing out that a particular thing is only legal under some circumstances is, however, a tactic.

But whether or not the wizard's actually been statted up is here irrelevant.

[Flickerdart]

I never said "extremely specific counter". Pointing out that a particular thing is only legal under some circumstances is, however, a tactic.
1) No it isn't.
2) Even if it were, it's not a tactic on the wizard's part. The wizard and the truenamer don't have a sit-down to argue about Gate.

[Jormengand]

2) Even if it were, it's not a tactic on the wizard's part. The wizard and the truenamer don't have a sit-down to argue about Gate.

If they did, it would probably be discussed from afar using Master the Four Winds and Magic Mouth + Teleport Object.

[Aka-chan]

With regard to the debate over Gate and unique creatures, I don't think adding a template to a standard MM creature makes that creature unique. IIRC, vampire is a template, so unless you want to argue that there's only one elven vampire, or dwarven vampire, or human vampire, in the entire setting (highly unlikely, just based on the fact that vampires "reproduce"), then adding a template to a creature clearly doesn't make it unique.

Or look at the Draketooth family in OOTS as an example. IIRC, the black dragon had three or four children with its human partner, all of whom presumably had the half-dragon template. Those half-dragon kids can't be unique creatures, because there are three of them.

[atemu1234]

Are we arguing a truenamer here? Because there is something ironic about using semantics to argue about a class whose power lies with words.

[Amphetryon]

What's the official game rules definition of 'unique?' If the dictionary definition is insufficient, what's the definition being used?

[Jormengand]

What's the official game rules definition of 'unique?' If the dictionary definition is insufficient, what's the definition being used?

There isn't one, but the same spell definition constantly contrasts "A specific named creature" with "A type of creature." I would argue that "Paragon solar angel" is a type of creature, not a specific named creature.