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InkisRatticus
2018-02-12, 11:13 AM
Please Evaluate and Critique Honestly.

Thank you kind sir.

Jormengand
2018-02-12, 04:55 PM
Thank you kind sir.

Not everyone on the internet is a sir. Nor, before you suggest it, are all people who are not sirs madams.

InkisRatticus
2018-02-12, 10:07 PM
Not everyone on the internet is a sir. Nor, before you suggest it, are all people who are not sirs madams.

My sincerest apologies Madam, or Time-traveling Multidimensional Entity. :smallwink:

Ashtagon
2018-02-13, 02:10 AM
My sincerest apologies Madam, or Time-traveling Multidimensional Entity. :smallwink:

You're not as funny as you think you are. You're normalising prejudice against gender variant people. And some people hide behind that normalisation to do terrible things.

InkisRatticus
2018-02-13, 02:13 AM
You're not as funny as you think you are. You're normalising prejudice against gender variant people. And some people hide behind that normalisation to do terrible things.

My apologies, I am not going after anyone, I was just trying to thank Jormengand for the help.

faden
2018-02-13, 05:15 AM
Some more questions and contributions I've accumulated:

-Size increases. Never fully understood size increases. spells like enlarge person say +2 STR comes from the size bonus, but the only RAW that addresses any other size changes are monster advancement rules, which gives +8 for each size, including med->large. so when a netherhost/dragon evolutionist increases in size, is this always a +2, and is this otherwise included in their stats?

-Forgery/decipher check DCs are discussed, how does this mechanic work? are you rolling language ranks (1-3) + literacy (1-3) + decipher/forge (0-1) + int mod vs DC x?

-A failed strain save deals damage but does not increase your strain? I think this is what you say and this feels appropriate. What happens on a failed concentration check for casting defensively? does that mean attackers get their attack of opportunity after all? So, then a second concentration check to either still cast the spell or avoid fizzle damage? Automatic spell failure and fizzle?

-Is the elementalist shapechange limited to the same size increases as the druid?

-Was there any consideration of using spellcraft instead of fortitude saves? It would give a base +1/level rather than +1 per 2-3 levels from fortitude base saves. Again, this would probably make strain too easy to function while burned out (lvl 1=skill focus 2 + int 18 + 4 ranks=easy to get 10 spellcraft modifier). At 1st level, with only a single point over strain, a very tough mage (con 14+great fortitude feat) would have a +4 vs DC 22. Maximized half orc with con of 20 and great fortitude would have a +7 vs DC up to 27 for casting the very first spell in strain. I can't think of a way to make it easier at first level without throwing off the balance later on. I thought of the first 3 feats below as generalized options available to all, but felt more appropriate as feats. I like the flavor of a save better than a skill check, anyway. I guess what I'm trying to say is that strain, as is, feels better than the next best option.


----------Ideas----------

Feats:
I couldn't think of a way to create these feats that wouldn't unbalance spellcasting and the strain system, but I'm including the ideas in case the flavor inspires you. These could be free abilities for all or feats.


Slow Crescendo
Requirements: concentration 5, spellcraft 5, autohypnosis 3, perform (any) 4.
Benefits:You harness your inner rhythm to increase the casting time of spells to decrease the strain cost. Roll perform DC 15+2*SL+desired number of rounds. If you do not succeed, the spell still takes longer and can cast successfully, but you do not reduce the strain cost. For each full round increase (therefore not including the first round), can decrease the strain cost by 1. This can decrease the cost by no more than half (rounded down). E.G., a level 2 spell with a strain cost of 7 dropped to a cost of no lower than 4, by increase by 3 rounds (so going from a standard action to 4 rounds). Taking damage rules apply normally.

Wild Magic
Requirements: knowledge planes 6.
Benefits:You cast spells with reckless abandon by drawing magical energies from the surrounding ethos and leylines rather than your own innate abilities. Roll a spellcraft vs DC 18+2*SL+2*desired strain cost saving (This puts the DC on par with casting defensively), as the more energy you try and draw, the more uncontrollable it can become. If the skillcheck fails, roll on wild magic minor surge Table (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wild_Magic_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)) and/or major surge if failing by 5 or more. Strain accumulates based on the results of the wild magic roll.
Special:Taking damage rules apply normally (concentration check or lose spell) but failure also causes the immediate roll on the major surge table. Note this may result in the spell succeeeding.
Special: If combining this with slow crescendo, you must re-roll this check each round.
Alternative Maths: optional: The strain cost saving is instead applied to the pre-existing strain total, and could prevent the fortitude save. For example, with a strain tolerance of 20, At 22, you could try and reduce it to 20. For a spell costing 7, this would still end up with a strain of 27 either way, but could prevent the fortitude save.
Alternative Maths: optional: The strain cost saving also decreases the cost of any strain save.
Alternative Maths: optional: The strain cost saving is instead applied to the strain save. In this case the spellcraft DC is 15+SL+2*strain cost saving.

Brain Burn
Requirements: 2nd level spells and either endurance or cannibalized casting
Benefits: You may add 1/2 your spellcraft ranks to saves against spell strain. If you do, take 2 damage to INT, WIS, and CHA. strain still accumulates normally. This damage is taken whether or not you succeed on the enhanced roll, as does hit point damage from a fizzle.


Class specific Ideas
Mage
Is there anything that makes casting a spell from the chosen school easier? Casting these with a cost of 1 less strain (minimum 2), I think this would make it too powerful, but is there some way to do this without upsetting the strain cost balance? Maybe making a spellcraft check? But this would make too many rolls to get the same result.

Priest
Same question, decreased strain for domain spells?

monk
quivering palm DC increases by 1 for each day before invoking the effect.

netherhost
Occupied Residence: (largely nullified by your previous balance and multiclassing explanation, but i'll leave the idea to inspire/aggravate you anyway. Severe penalties always strike me as better than absolute restrictions)
...The beast's presence requires ongoing attention. This makes multiclassing absolutely impossible incredibly difficult: every other class level taken after becoming a netherhost adds 2 to the DC of all saves to become "better." the host may take no more than one level from another class in a row. So a Warrior2/Netherhost6 who gains another level of warrior adds 2 6 to all such will saves. Reaching netherhost 20 eliminates this penalty.
Finally, each such level results in a cumulative (1*n) per week chance of the beast taking control in inopportune moments. At a timing of the DM's discretion, must make a will save of (10+beast cha+daily links+multiclassing penalty+consecutive successful will saves against Occupied Resistance) or transform to beast form out of control. Each round the beast remains in control, the new will save decreases by one to regain control.

Protective Transformation: may react after the host fails a save but before the spell effect occurs, allowing the beast mind to try to save as well.

Augmentation overflow: If this gives +2 then +4, then it gives 4/2/2 then 8/4/4 to hybrid form. This makes the hybrid form stronger than the beast form? is this intentional?

Time Bender
restore timeflow
This can be used to counter time stop. This still consumes an aevum. This is an immediate action, and can be done even if an action is not readied to counter the time stop spell. Alternatively, the time bender may choose to enter the time stop. The time bender always acts first (if more than one, roll 1d20+time bender level), and all non time benders in the time-stop remains flat-footed the full duration.

feat:
Un-Anchored in Time (Su)
Requirements: time bender 12, anchored in time.
Benefits: This ability would typically not come into play unless Anchored in Time failed to save the life. If gaining some class feature at your next level up would prevent a death, you use it at this moment, but instead can't gain the specific feature until one additional level later. This character development choice cannot be avoided, even if there is subsequent death and resurrection. For example, if missing a jump by 1 resulted in death, you could use that gained benefit now, but then you must take that particular character choice. After gaining one level, all other class features are gained normally, but the part that saves your life is not. After gaining a second level, Time Catches Up With You and you recover the missing specifics. Failing to make the deigned choice paradoxically negates your existence from the time of reversed death in question, and prevents resurrection by anything short of a 9th level spell.
Special:You can also use this for any character choices, such as gaining a different class level, but it must be a distinct change that prevents your death Whatever the specific, be it BAB-related dodge bonus increase, ability score increase, reflex save, steely resolve warcraft, feat, gaining level 1 mage spell featherfall, etc., that is the feature that is absent. If taking level 1 of mage, gaining the spell and going from a strain tolerance of 0 to 19 that allows the spellcasting, then you may gain all spells known but one (needed to get featherfall) and may only give a strain tolerance of 12 (as 7 points were used to save the life). This restriction should be narrowly related to the specifics that prevent the death.

nonsi
2018-02-15, 04:45 PM
-Size increases. Never fully understood size increases. spells like enlarge person say +2 STR comes from the size bonus, but the only RAW that addresses any other size changes are monster advancement rules, which gives +8 for each size, including med->large. so when a netherhost/dragon evolutionist increases in size, is this always a +2, and is this otherwise included in their stats?

As far as I know and remember, Enlarge Person spell details what happens when one increases in size.
Apply the opposite for size decrease.





-Forgery/decipher check DCs are discussed, how does this mechanic work? are you rolling language ranks (1-3) + literacy (1-3) + decipher/forge (0-1) + int mod vs DC x?

I'll have to get back to you on that one.





-A failed strain save deals damage but does not increase your strain? I think this is what you say and this feels appropriate. What happens on a failed concentration check for casting defensively? does that mean attackers get their attack of opportunity after all? So, then a second concentration check to either still cast the spell or avoid fizzle damage? Automatic spell failure and fizzle?

Where did you see "does not increase your strain"?
That was never the intent. When you cast a spell, strain toll precedes anything else.





-Is the elementalist shapechange limited to the same size increases as the druid?

The target elemental's HDs determine its size.





-Was there any consideration of using spellcraft instead of fortitude saves? It would give a base +1/level rather than +1 per 2-3 levels from fortitude base saves. Again, this would probably make strain too easy to function while burned out (lvl 1=skill focus 2 + int 18 + 4 ranks=easy to get 10 spellcraft modifier). At 1st level, with only a single point over strain, a very tough mage (con 14+great fortitude feat) would have a +4 vs DC 22. Maximized half orc with con of 20 and great fortitude would have a +7 vs DC up to 27 for casting the very first spell in strain. I can't think of a way to make it easier at first level without throwing off the balance later on. I thought of the first 3 feats below as generalized options available to all, but felt more appropriate as feats. I like the flavor of a save better than a skill check, anyway. I guess what I'm trying to say is that strain, as is, feels better than the next best option.

Pardon me, but I have no idea what this refers to. This entire passage seems to be missing a header topic.





----------Ideas----------

Feats:
I couldn't think of a way to create these feats that wouldn't unbalance spellcasting and the strain system, but I'm including the ideas in case the flavor inspires you. These could be free abilities for all or feats.

Nice thought, but I have no more posting space left to put additional feats.





Slow Crescendo
Requirements: concentration 5, spellcraft 5, autohypnosis 3, perform (any) 4.
Benefits:You harness your inner rhythm to increase the casting time of spells to decrease the strain cost. Roll perform DC 15+SL+desired number of rounds. If you do not succeed, the spell still takes longer and can cast successfully, but you do not reduce the strain cost. For each full round increase (therefore not including the first round), can decrease the strain cost by 1. This can decrease the cost by no more than half (rounded down). E.G., a level 2 spell with a strain cost of 7 dropped to a cost of no lower than 4, by increase by 3 rounds (so going from a standard action to 4 rounds). Taking damage rules apply normally.

Nice idea, but remember that about 1/2 the spells a fullcaster casts regularly are utility spells, so this is a major boost to one's resources.
Way too much for a single feat.

What did you mean by "Taking damage rules apply normally"?
Does this refer to spell failure due to taking damage?





Wild Magic
*snip*

Whenever I see a Wild Magic table with a list of effects, I ask myself "why those effects and not others".
This is why I said what I said about Wild Magic on post #234 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21894333&postcount=234).





Brain Burn
Requirements: 2nd level spells and either endurance or cannibalized casting
Benefits: You may add 1/2 your spellcraft ranks to saves against spell strain. If you do, take 2 damage to INT, WIS, and CHA. strain still accumulates normally. This damage is taken whether or not you succeed on the enhanced roll, as does hit point damage from a fizzle.

What are "saves against spell strain"?





Class specific Ideas
Mage
Is there anything that makes casting a spell from the chosen school easier? Casting these with a cost of 1 less strain (minimum 2), I think this would make it too powerful, but is there some way to do this without upsetting the strain cost balance?


Priest
Same question, decreased strain for domain spells?

I don't see how.





monk
quivering palm DC increases by 1 for each day before invoking the effect.

Quote: "Quivering Palm is an instantaneous effect - it cannot be postponed for a later time"





netherhost
Occupied Residence: . . . *snip*

For the sake of keeping things simple, I'll skip this suggestion.





Protective Transformation: may react after the host fails a save but before the spell effect occurs, allowing the beast mind to try to save as well.

I think it already says that.





Time Bender
restore timeflow
This can be used to counter time stop. This still consumes an aevum. This is an immediate action, and can be done even if an action is not readied to counter the time stop spell. Alternatively, the time bender may choose to enter the time stop. The time bender always acts first (if more than one, roll 1d20+time bender level), and all non time benders in the time-stop remains flat-footed the full duration.

I think not. Time Stop (the tweaked version) has a larger AoE than Dispel Magic.
Also, I see no reason to make it operate faster than standard action.





feat:
Un-Anchored in Time (Su)
*snip*


1. This seems like a strategy that would screw you more often than not.
2. The feat seems a bit tedious to operate.
3. Mote of Time offers a much more potent benefit than that, and it's a free action.

faden
2018-02-16, 04:05 AM
sorry double post

faden
2018-02-16, 04:49 AM
As far as I know and remember, Enlarge Person spell details what happens when one increases in size. Apply the opposite for size decrease.
Good, that makes it straightforward.


The target elemental's HDs determine its size.
So elementalist can go Huge at 8th level (16HD), while a druid can at 18th level.

(pardon my order reorganization) :

What are "saves against spell strain"?

If a fatigued Spellcaster wishes to cast another spell, he must first make a Fort save
I couldn't find a good term for this kind of fort save: casting while fatigued because strain exceeds strain tolerance. How is the term Strain Save?



Where did you see "does not increase your strain"?

If the save is failed, the spell fizzles with no effect and the Spellcaster takes damage equal to the spell's strain-toll.
this specifically states consequences when fizzling, and so should include all consequences when fizzling.

DC = (20 + the spell's level + the amount of Strain he has over his Tolerance prior to casting the spell).
this states the fortitude save occurs before strain tolerance, and therefore strain toll does not precede everything. I read this as meaning that the spell fails before ever accessing the magic that creates the strain in the first place.

Alternatively, a spellcaster taking damage during spellcasting may decide to forgo the effort of going through with casting and snuff it pre-casting, to avoid taking the strain toll.
this states that if damage occurs mid-casting, then you may avoid the strain toll that is yet to occur, showing the order is something like:

1: if strain>tolerance, beat fort save or fizzle
2: if casting defensively, beat concentration or UNKNOWN (fizzle? AoO? is it a failure of the spellcasting per 3.5 RAW and therefore no AoO? or a failure of the defensive maneuvers?)
3: if combat damage, decide abort or continue
4: if abort, beat concentration and avoid strain toll or take strain toll (I read this implied a separate entity than fizzle, because fizzle did not mention strain toll).
5: if continue, beat concentration or fizzle.
6: incur strain cost
7: spell succeeds
Fizzle=no effect and the Spellcaster takes damage equal to the spell's strain-toll

The Mechanics of Spellcasting spoiler states that strain cost could only occur at step 4 or later. Obviously this order is not super critical, but if strain toll occurs with fizzles at fortitude failure, casting defensively failure, damage save failure, and abort failure, this needs clarification as I missed it thrice.


If the save is failed, the spell fizzles with no effect and the Spellcaster takes damage equal to the spell's strain-toll. This would be a good place to add When you cast a spell, strain toll precedes anything else

So if you are a single point over strain tolerance, and fizzle (because you have to roll 18+), even though you've been penalized with damage, now you have to roll 25 on a d20? I really don't like the double penalization of raw damage plus making it more difficult for further spellcasting. Maybe 1 strain, even for a 0 cost spell, or spell level.



Pardon me, but I have no idea what this refers to. This entire passage seems to be missing a header topic.
topic: When strain exceeds strain tolerance, the caster must roll a fortitude save. The lowest possible DC for this roll is 22 for a 1st level spell.
postulate: At first level, non-optimized mages could average around +2 (CON 15 for 2nd highest stat, 70% of 4d6b3 will have a 14+ for 2nd best roll), ranging to the optimized half-orc priest or druid with great fortitude could max at +9 at first level (CON 20, 7-10% of 4d6b3 have at least one 18).
postulate: At 1st level, this is basically not worth attempting (which I guess is okay). Double penalty of fizzle damage and extra strain is too much risk especially if you have to roll a 20 to beat a DC of 22. This makes trying a second time impossible, even with a fortitude bonus of 8.
hypothesis: changes to make casting over strain tolerance possible at low level will create a proportional change in difficulty at higher levels that is undesired.
hypothesis: fortitude save increases slower than level, while spellcraft increases linearly. changing to spellcraft would change the level 1 non-optimized average fortitude bonus of 2, to the average non-optimized spellcraft average bonus of 7. Now, the risk of failure and dangerous penalties makes it worth considering at lower level, and allow the most practiced spellcasters to weigh the risk of further spellcasting.
method 1: replace strain save with spellcraft check. Gives too much benefit at higher levels
method 2: lower fortitude save: less of a benefit at higher levels, but doesn't do much to help the mechanic
method 3: allow brain burn: adds modifier that scales with half level to fortitude that scales with ~1/2 level. trades risk for significant penalty. regardless of level, makes it a tough decision to augment a skill, but opens up options.
discussion: as I tried saying, methods 1 and 2 really don't seem to work, and thematically I like fortitude saves better than skill checks anyway. Brain burn thematically allows the mental training and spellwork to alter a difficult roll, but have penalties that match.

This could be incorporated into the base rules of spellcasting, only be allowed through the feat, or the following classes could get Brain Burn as a bonus feat (or could take with appropriate pre-reqs): Witch 1 (already built around ability score damage, but doesn't have spellcraft as a class skill), Druid 2, Mage 3, Bard 4 (might skip this one), Priest 5 (mirrors divine resilience nicely, or could replace it for negative energy priests). Brain Burn would be a move equivalent action.



Nice idea, but remember that about 1/2 the spells a fullcaster casts regularly are utility spells, so this is a major boost to one's resources. Way too much for a single feat.
Yea, I saw that dilemma too. Limiting these 3 feat benefits to use only for strain saves would mean that any use of the feat always contains a risk, and so utility spells would not see an undue boost to resources.



What did you mean by "Taking damage rules apply normally"?
Does this refer to spell failure due to taking damage?
yes



Quote: "Quivering Palm is an instantaneous effect - it cannot be postponed for a later time"
huh. Guess I was looking at the old version, where it can build up energy over 7 days.




For the sake of keeping things simple, I'll skip this suggestion.
What about Augmentation overflow? the numbers seem to give a bigger total bonus to the hybrid form.

nonsi
2018-02-16, 09:32 AM
So elementalist can go Huge at 8th level (16HD), while a druid can at 18th level.

1. We've already agreed that it's gonna be 1.5 x Elementalist level (change already applied), so that makes it level 11.
2. Druids have a better selection of spells.
3. Druids have companions.
4. Wild Shape is far more versatile than Elemental Form (not just combat, but social and espionage situations).





I couldn't find a good term for this kind of fort save: casting while fatigued because strain exceeds strain tolerance. How is the term Strain Save?

To set the record straight, the save is not vs. strain buildup, but vs. spell failure. You can't circumvent strain buildup.







Originally Posted by nonsi
If the save is failed, the spell fizzles with no effect and the Spellcaster takes damage equal to the spell's strain-toll.

this specifically states consequences when fizzling, and so should include all consequences when fizzling.

Even in core, when spellcasting fails, your spell is lost nonetheless.
Whatever's not mentioned in this project should continue to function according to the official rules.







Originally Posted by nonsi
DC = (20 + the spell's level + the amount of Strain he has over his Tolerance prior to casting the spell).

this states the fortitude save occurs before strain tolerance, and therefore strain toll does not precede everything. I read this as meaning that the spell fails before ever accessing the magic that creates the strain in the first place.

You regard the Tolerance value as it is before attempting to overcast, but your strain continues to accumulate nonetheless.







Originally Posted by nonsi
Alternatively, a spellcaster taking damage during spellcasting may decide to forgo the effort of going through with casting and snuff it pre-casting, to avoid taking the strain toll.

this states that if damage occurs mid-casting, then you may avoid the strain toll that is yet to occur, showing the order is something like:

1: if strain>tolerance, beat fort save or fizzle
2: if casting defensively, beat concentration or UNKNOWN (fizzle? AoO? is it a failure of the spellcasting per 3.5 RAW and therefore no AoO? or a failure of the defensive maneuvers?)
3: if combat damage, decide abort or continue
4: if abort, beat concentration and avoid strain toll or take strain toll (I read this implied a separate entity than fizzle, because fizzle did not mention strain toll).
5: if continue, beat concentration or fizzle.
6: incur strain cost
7: spell succeeds
Fizzle=no effect and the Spellcaster takes damage equal to the spell's strain-toll

The Mechanics of Spellcasting spoiler states that strain cost could only occur at step 4 or later. Obviously this order is not super critical, but if strain toll occurs with fizzles at fortitude failure, casting defensively failure, damage save failure, and abort failure, this needs clarification as I missed it thrice.

I see what you mean.
This complicates things a lot. I'll remove this option altogether.







Originally Posted by nonsi
If the save is failed, the spell fizzles with no effect and the Spellcaster takes damage equal to the spell's strain-toll. [I]This would be a good place to add[I] When you cast a spell, strain toll precedes anything else

So if you are a single point over strain tolerance, and fizzle (because you have to roll 18+), even though you've been penalized with damage, now you have to roll 25 on a d20? I really don't like the double penalization of raw damage plus making it more difficult for further spellcasting. Maybe 1 strain, even for a 0 cost spell, or spell level.

With my solution above, I think this issue is moot.







Originally Posted by nonsi
Pardon me, but I have no idea what this refers to. This entire passage seems to be missing a header topic.

topic: When strain exceeds strain tolerance, the caster must roll a fortitude save. The lowest possible DC for this roll is 22 for a 1st level spell.
postulate: At first level, non-optimized mages could average around +2 (CON 15 for 2nd highest stat, 70% of 4d6b3 will have a 14+ for 2nd best roll), ranging to the optimized half-orc priest or druid with great fortitude could max at +9 at first level (CON 20, 7-10% of 4d6b3 have at least one 18).
*snip*

I want to make one thing clear. My intent was to make overcasting a Hail Mary – especially at low levels.
As levels accumulate:
1. You have a bigger pool.
2. The costs decrease.
3. You gain more practice with overcasting.

Now, given that:
1. Druid spells are generally less potent than arcane spells.
2. Con-optimization is bound to come at the expense of other ability scores.
3. Wild Shape incentivizes focusing on mental stats.
This makes the potential of druids beating mages at overcasting a negligible issue as far as I'm concerned.

Furthermore, I'm out of posting space on post #4, so I have no more room to elaborate anything.

In addition, notice the alternative rules for Strain & Tolerance. The Spell Points option.
The reason it's in the overhaul is to allow one not to get his hands dirty with overcasting, and with a slight tweak of the numbers, you can control the resources of spellcasters with surgical precision.
As much as I love the thematic value of Strain & Tolerance (Raistlin Majere struggling to cast a spell), I think that the Spell Points option I've come up with is more game-practical and is a better tool at reducing the gap between casters and noncasters.







Originally Posted by nonsi
For the sake of keeping things simple, I'll skip this suggestion.

What about Augmentation overflow? the numbers seem to give a bigger total bonus to the hybrid form.

1. The hybrid form does not gain the increased size of the beast form.
2. The hybrid form does not benefit from Augmented Physics. Augmentation overflow is a residual effect of Augmented Physics.

I'm getting this nagging feeling that I missed something.




Offtopic, I added 2 Epic feats to the Elementalist, just to make it clear that Elemental Monolith form is not available w/o putting some resources into it.

faden
2018-02-16, 10:23 AM
Okay, the strain picture is making a lot more sense now. I got the hail mary aspects of it, but I see how the rest of the pieces fit together. I appreciate the clarification. I did like the option to go for a lower concentration DC to avoid the strain, but I see how that would make things more straightforward.

I like the elementalist changes, then.

Netherhost:


Augmentation Overflow (Ex)
The body of a 9th level netherhost becomes stronger due to the beast's influence, yet a little less normal, gaining some of the might of the beast itself. He gains a permanent +2 increase to the ability chosen for Augmented Physics. In addition, the hybrid form gains the benefits of Nether Strikes.
At 17th level, the host gains another +2 increase to the ability chosen for Augmented Physics. In addition the hybrid form gains the benefits of the beast's entire array of physical attacks and the host form gains the benefits of Nether Strikes, despite it not being visually obvious.
The hybrid form, gains twice the above bonuses to the selected physical abilities and gains the above bonuses to the other two physical abilities.


Augmented Physics (Ex)
...
The bonus for the hybrid form is half that of the beast itself.

I forgot about the size increase, that makes the beast bonus better and may solve my question. But now, I'm confused again. The last line of augmentation overflow says "the hybrid gets twice the (augmentation overflow bonus) to the selected stat that the host gets" (so lv9 host gets 2/0/0 and hybrid gets 4/2/2, then at 17 host gets 4/0/0, hybrid gets 8/4/4, as currently written) and the Augmented Physics chain states "The bonus for the hybrid form is half that of the beast itself." So the hybrid form is getting bonuses from both the host bonus and the beast bonus, as currently written. Your most recent post seems to state only one of these two sources is supposed to apply.

So level 19 beast would get 10/8/8 + size bonus, while hybrid would get 5/4/4 from augmented physics PLUS 8/4/4 from overflow. if the hybrid should get anything from the overflow, it should be just the 2/0/0 or 4/0/0.


20th – Massive Beast: The body of the beast is unrealistically large compared to that of the host, while in hybrid form you are one size category larger, and while in beast form you are two size categories larger.
so beast gets +2 str, then at 20th gets +4 and hybrid gets +2. I like the way this progression works.

nonsi
2018-02-16, 02:32 PM
Netherhost:


Augmentation Overflow (Ex)
The body of a 9th level netherhost becomes stronger due to the beast's influence, yet a little less normal, gaining some of the might of the beast itself. He gains a permanent +2 increase to the ability chosen for Augmented Physics. In addition, the hybrid form gains the benefits of Nether Strikes.
At 17th level, the host gains another +2 increase to the ability chosen for Augmented Physics. In addition the hybrid form gains the benefits of the beast's entire array of physical attacks and the host form gains the benefits of Nether Strikes, despite it not being visually obvious.
The hybrid form, gains twice the above bonuses to the selected physical abilities and gains the above bonuses to the other two physical abilities.



Augmented Physics (Ex)
...
The bonus for the hybrid form is half that of the beast itself.

I forgot about the size increase, that makes the beast bonus better and may solve my question. But now, I'm confused again. The last line of augmentation overflow says "the hybrid gets twice the (augmentation overflow bonus) to the selected stat that the host gets" (so lv9 host gets 2/0/0 and hybrid gets 4/2/2, then at 17 host gets 4/0/0, hybrid gets 8/4/4, as currently written) and the Augmented Physics chain states "The bonus for the hybrid form is half that of the beast itself." So the hybrid form is getting bonuses from both the host bonus and the beast bonus, as currently written. Your most recent post seems to state only one of these two sources is supposed to apply.

So level 19 beast would get 10/8/8 + size bonus, while hybrid would get 5/4/4 from augmented physics PLUS 8/4/4 from overflow. if the hybrid should get anything from the overflow, it should be just the 2/0/0 or 4/0/0.

You're right again. The double benefit somehow eluded me.
The clause about hybrid form will be nixed from Augmentation Overflow.





20th – Massive Beast: The body of the beast is unrealistically large compared to that of the host, while in hybrid form you are one size category larger, and while in beast form you are two size categories larger.
so beast gets +2 str, then at 20th gets +4 and hybrid gets +2. I like the way this progression works.

TBH, the intent was that Augmented Physics already reflects the size increase, not that size adds some more on top of that.

nonsi
2018-02-17, 02:07 AM
I like the elementalist changes, then.

A thought has crossed my mind: Does an elementalist really need 4 separate tolerance pools?
I mean, it's always nice to have more, but the game is also about resource management tactics. If someone wishes not to be bothered with resource management, have them play a warlock or a noncaster.

This makes me feel that it might be better if the Elementalist had a single tolerance pool to draw from.
The total amount of accumulated known powers will remain unchanged (e.g. at level 20 you'll have 40/34/28/22 known powers from your primary/secondary/tertiary/quaternary elements respectively), but powers from the 4 elements will all draw from the same pool of tolerance (or "spell points").


OTOH, it feels right that a grandmaster elementalist would be able to shake the earth 5 times a day w/o it coming at an expense of his ability to fly or shoot fireballs.



Thoughts?............







Yea, what you said about warlocks and soulknives makes sense. Maybe overheating would just be limited to a siege situation only.

I decided to put it to the test and see what comes out.
Here's an idea regarding the Warlock and "overheating":

Eldritch Reservoir: level + Cha-score + Con-mod

Costs:



Usage
Cost
EB w/o shape or essence
-1
Each application of shape or essence
-1 (or -1 per shape/essence grade)
Overload
-5 (in addition to the 1-round cooldown)
Iterative blasts
each blast is calculated according to the above
Split Blast
each AoE is calculated according to the above
Invocations
-1 / grade


Recovery: +1 / round.

According to the above, even at 1st level you could exhaust yourself in 5 rounds (you'd probably not have more than a reservoir of 22 (1 + 18 + 3)), but each round you'd have at least 1 point to fire an unmodified EB due to recovery.

At higher levels, you could burn out real fast, which would require feats for boosting one's reservoir (that would come at the expense of character resources).
Alternatively (or in addition), a warlock's reservoir could increase by +2/+3/+4 starting at levels 6/11/16 respectively.


As you can see, things are starting to get messy.

faden
2018-02-19, 04:20 AM
I agree with your OTOH. I still like the flavor of 4 separate strain pools. It allows for resource management, and remember, this is already much more restrictive than the original spell pool plan.

To get more nitpicky on another aspect, is there anything that justifies having max saves? Would it be too tricky to say Earth gets max fortitude, Air gets Will, Water gets reflex. Fire... Could spin it thematically to really fit any of the three, so player's choice. This means once you have 7th level 3 elements you get max saves, but before then is limited based on your 1-2 elements. Same net result, but a ton more flavor and sense of accomplishment to get there, at the cost of extra rulekeeping.


.
Overload (Su)
Once per minute, a warlock may overload his EB to make it deal additional damage. After overloading, the warlock may not use his EB until after the end of his next turn.
I like those numbers, but how do you get 5 rounds to exhaust? If you're overloading every round that would do it, but you said overload was max 1 per minute. If eliminating the one minute lockout (and EB 1 round lockout), these rules would allow a way to calculate Going Nova and burnout. But this would also represent a power increase (and penalties) for overload. at a cost of 1+5?=6 per overload, this would let you burnout once per 36 seconds indefinitely. If overload cost 9 (not saying this is or isn't a suggestion), that would make it an even minute between overloading indefinitely (to keep power level equivalent to prior structure) but only let you do about 2 in a row (again, this would still be a power increase for overload). I think 5 is probably a better cost, but if I'm understanding you, would represent a large frequency increase for overload.

Without changing overload frequency limitations, reaching eldritch reservoir would be so overburdening it would make it silly to keep this rule.

Increasing regen rate at 6/11/16 would be a good way to keep up with iterative attacks.

Is the regen rate only when not expending? With a regen of 1, does that mean you can use a cost of 1 indefinitely?

What happens when going over eldritch reservoir? become fatigued like strain? fort save to try again? Can you go from 20->26 but then can't do it until 5 rounds go by and you reach your score of 21?



EB keeps gaining 1d6 every other level past 11th level
Just to clarify, does the warlock EB gain 1d6 per level until 11?

nonsi
2018-02-19, 06:53 AM
To get more nitpicky on another aspect, is there anything that justifies having max saves? Would it be too tricky to say Earth gets max fortitude, Air gets Will, Water gets reflex. Fire... Could spin it thematically to really fit any of the three, so player's choice. This means once you have 7th level 3 elements you get max saves, but before then is limited based on your 1-2 elements. Same net result, but a ton more flavor and sense of accomplishment to get there, at the cost of extra rulekeeping.

I'm ok with this approach. Maybe I'll implement this myself (I'll need to evaluate viability. not a lot more posting space left).

Btw, IIRC, in 3.5e Air is associated with Reflex (Dex) and Water is associated with Will (Wis).







Overload (Su)
Once per minute, a warlock may overload his EB to make it deal additional damage. After overloading, the warlock may not use his EB until after the end of his next turn.

I like those numbers, but how do you get 5 rounds to exhaust? If you're overloading every round that would do it, but you said overload was max 1 per minute.

Explanation:
"Turn" = your actions (move / standard / full round / swift) during a combat round.
Out of turn actions = immediate actions.
Free actions are applicable in both cases.

(maybe you're confusing the term with other editions/RPGs, where "Turn" = 1 minute)





If eliminating the one minute lockout (and EB 1 round lockout), these rules would allow a way to calculate Going Nova and burnout. But this would also represent a power increase (and penalties) for overload. at a cost of 1+5?=6 per overload, this would let you burnout once per 36 seconds indefinitely.

I think you're neglecting the cost of shapes and essences (could range anywhere from +0 to +8 at high levels).





Increasing regen rate at 6/11/16 would be a good way to keep up with iterative attacks.

It won't close the gap entirely though.
Also, notice that overload is roughly 150%-200% that of normal EB damage (going down), so there's no increase of the cost.





Is the regen rate only when not expending?

No. It's always on.





With a regen of 1, does that mean you can use a cost of 1 indefinitely?

That's right. You're never shooting blanks altogether, but your ammo might not suffice if you overtax your resources.





What happens when going over eldritch reservoir?

Never happens. You just can't do that. This is not another application of Strain & Tolerance (even if the pool is of similar size).







EB keeps gaining 1d6 every other level past 11th level

Just to clarify, does the warlock EB gain 1d6 per level until 11?

In Complete Arcane, the Warlock gains +1d6 at each odd level until 11. Then the damage increases by another 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter (14, 17, 20…)

nonsi
2018-02-19, 07:19 AM
.

I considered adding the Aasimar and Tiefling to my Races collection for a very long time, but I never liked their LA.
I think I finally have a formula for both of them to accommodate LA +0.


Aasimar (http://dustin.wikidot.com/pc-race:aasimar)

+2 Wis, +2 Cha
Medium size
Land Speed: 30'
Darkvision: 60'
Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5
Automatic Languages: Common, Celestial. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Sylvan.



Tiefling (http://dustin.wikidot.com/pc-race:tiefling)

+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha
Medium size
Land Speed: 30'
Darkvision: 60'
Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5
Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.

nonsi
2018-02-25, 04:50 AM
-Forgery/decipher check DCs are discussed, how does this mechanic work? are you rolling language ranks (1-3) + literacy (1-3) + decipher/forge (0-1) + int mod vs DC x?



I re-worded the mechanics, for better readability.




Decipher Script & Forgery are skill-like language-dependent abilities. Once their requirements are met and a single skill point is invested in either/both, ranks in the given language count as ranks in either/both so-called skills and apply to that language.
. . .
Opposed Checks: Decipher Script is used for opposed checks vs. Forgery attempts.


Notice that nothing's to stop you from investing ranks in a language well passed Mastery level, though few would ever do.




FYI, I'm lowering the Elementalist's BAB to 1/2.

When I first created the Elementalist, its capabilities were nowhere near what they are now.
Now a player would have to choose between the ability to manipulate the elements and a powerful combat suite.
Since this class eventually has x4 as much output as fullcasters, I see no reason whatsoever why it would have powerful combat capabilities at the same time (remember that in these settings there's no way to circumvent the absence of spellcasting when Wild Shape is on).

nonsi
2018-03-06, 05:57 AM
Reserved..

nonsi
2018-03-23, 10:03 AM
.
I finally have rules for deities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18875745&postcount=32) (becoming one and advancing as deities)
I've also completed the details for flying castles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777522&postcount=30). Now you can take your flaying castle with you. Now flying castles can vanish and teleport and plane-shift.

nonsi
2018-07-19, 05:37 AM
.
Status report:

- 2 base classes added: Bladeweaver and Portalist
- PrC alternative: Bone Knight (feat tree)

The above additions complete every character concept I've ever thought of implementing, and just about every character concept viable via official 3.5 materials (with the exception of obviously broken stuff).
If anyone has a notion of a character concept that could fit into a medieval setting that they'd never encountered as a viable 3.5e character build, I'd be happy to hear about it. If the overhaul rules turn out not to already make it viable, I'll try to think of a way to make it so.
.

VladtheLad
2018-10-01, 05:57 AM
I have read quite a bit of the overhaul (not all of it) and I remember actually reading a lot of what you wrote back when you had extra abilities (perception and agility I think).
I salute you for keeping at it for such a long time!

I actually agree with a lot of your design goals and choices. Especially the "lets not have an unnecessary abundance of classes".

I am interested in how this rules play out, so I have some questions:
-I couldn't find anything indicating a wealth by level chart. More importanly, because that's where wealth by level emerges from, is there a standarized award for defeating a monster of a specific CR?
-Also what changes would monsters require to run in your overhaul?
-Would monsters with spell like abilities incur strain(couldn't find a section about spell likes in spellcasting)? How about normal spellcasting?
I am thinking that maybe you could include general instructions on how to convert monsters (if that's actually even necessary).
- You mention ability enhancing magic items don't stack, does that mean there is no point to them? In general I am confused about how dc's and saves will scale in your games. Will spellcasters have a chance to affect lvl appropriate monsters and player resist lvl appropriate dc's?
In a post you mention the iron will etc feats function differently in your games but i can't find them anywhere in your rules.

Other notes: I always wanted to connect level with longevity in dnd 3.5. Kinda like if you gain levels you age more slowly. I see you had a similar idea with cancelling age penlaties. If you went that slower aging route, do you have any ideas how would you do it?

nonsi
2018-10-01, 05:42 PM
I have read quite a bit of the overhaul (not all of it) and I remember actually reading a lot of what you wrote back when you had extra abilities (perception and agility I think).


I remember those.
With time, I've come to the understanding that practicality must precede common sense when it comes to an effective game overhaul, or even isolated house rules. Any changes to the set of ability scores would have just too much impact on the game, to a point where reconciling all the implications would merit huge amounts of rules, and the end result would probably confuse the majority of the readers.





I salute you for keeping at it for such a long time!


Thanks : )





I actually agree with a lot of your design goals and choices. Especially the "lets not have an unnecessary abundance of classes".


Sure. But that reduction in the number of classes must not come at the expense of the available character concepts to choose from.
I believe I have that angle covered with a lot of extra.





-I couldn't find anything indicating a wealth by level chart.


WBL is meant to become unimportant when using the overhaul. The classes are so much more versatile and capable on their own than any official classes that they should be able to function with very little gear (except for extreme cases where it would promote the story line).





More importanly, because that's where wealth by level emerges from, is there a standarized award for defeating a monster of a specific CR?


See "Encounter-CRs and XP Awards" spoiler in post #5.

[Edit:] Oh, you meant treasure. No. nothing in particular. I'd advise no more than 50% of what's suggested in the DMG. In all epic stories, heroes save the day using mostly their innate capabilities + wits. Much more stylish and elegant than shining like a Christmas tree.





-Also what changes would monsters require to run in your overhaul?


Very few actually.
1. Give them maxed out HP, but also see "Modified Monsters" spoiler in post #28.
2. Up their saving throws when relevant, according to "Saving-Throws Modifiers – Redefined" spoiler in post #3.





-Would monsters with spell like abilities incur strain (couldn't find a section about spell likes in spellcasting)? How about normal spellcasting?


No and yes.
SLAs always had #uses per day and never counted as regular spellcasting. No reason to change that.
Spellcasting should work the same for everyone, otherwise it'll complicate things.





I am thinking that maybe you could include general instructions on how to convert monsters (if that's actually even necessary).


I'd prefer converting only what merits change, and not converting for the sake of changing.





- You mention ability enhancing magic items don't stack, does that mean there is no point to them?


No. it means that if one has multiple magical effects that augment a given character stat (ability score, attack bonus, deflection bonus to AC, etc.) they overlap and only the highest augmentation applies.





In general I am confused about how dc's and saves will scale in your games. Will spellcasters have a chance to affect lvl appropriate monsters and player resist lvl appropriate dc's?


AFAIK, no change there. Nothing that's intended anyway.
None of the classes was designed to break RNG, and a lot of crazy stat-boosting means have been eliminated.





In a post you mention the iron will etc feats function differently in your games but i can't find them anywhere in your rules.


Better rather than differently.
See "By Categories" spoiler (inside "Modified Feats", post #8).





Other notes: I always wanted to connect level with longevity in dnd 3.5. Kinda like if you gain levels you age more slowly. I see you had a similar idea with cancelling age penlaties. If you went that slower aging route, do you have any ideas how would you do it?


I wouldn't, for the simple reason that dying of oldage is not something one should be concerned about.
Downtime should never accumulate to dangerous levels, otherwise the DM is doing something terribly wrong.
Also, quite a few classes overcome oldage altogether (Jester, Priest, Druid, Warlock, Witch, Monk, Dragon Evolutionist, Time Bender, Elementalist, Radiant Soul).
On top of that, there's Lichdom, Green Star Adept, Bone Knight, divinity and Highlander immortality.

But if I would, I'd make it like that:
6th character level: +20% to character's age steps and maximum age.
12th character level: +50%
18th character level: +100%

VladtheLad
2018-10-02, 08:34 AM
I remember those.
With time, I've come to the understanding that practicality must precede common sense when it comes to an effective game overhaul, or even isolated house rules. Any changes to the set of ability scores would have just too much impact on the game, to a point where reconciling all the implications would merit huge amounts of rules, and the end result would probably confuse the majority of the readers.



Absolutely, it was the right choise IMO.
As an aside familiarity is also an issue, if 3.5 came out today, I wouldn't be so sure I could spend the time or more importanly have the desire to re learn it.





Sure. But that reduction in the number of classes must not come at the expense of the available character concepts to choose from.
I believe I have that angle covered with a lot of extra.



I personally would be satisfied even with only the class and multi class options from adnd (provided they were well done), but I understand why many people want more.



WBL is meant to become unimportant when using the overhaul. The classes are so much more versatile and capable on their own than any official classes that they should be able to function with very little gear (except for extreme cases where it would promote the story line).





[Edit:] Oh, you meant treasure. No. nothing in particular. I'd advise no more than 50% of what's suggested in the DMG. In all epic stories, heroes save the day using mostly their innate capabilities + wits. Much more stylish and elegant than shining like a Christmas tree.




AFAIK, no change there. Nothing that's intended anyway.
None of the classes was designed to break RNG, and a lot of crazy stat-boosting means have been eliminated.


I haven't run any numbers but my fear is without magic items classes will be very vulnerable, especially on saves and ac. On the other hand I could be totally wrong because even half WBL and your as far as i understand more expensive magic items should end up granting some considerable bonuses.

I am also considering running published adventures with your rules, treasure and magic items unchanged, and simply disallowing or severly hampering magic item trading, which will make things much more straightforward and faster.
In general I always wanted to have a system where magic items aren't necessary but are also randomly awarded, since the fun factor in my experience is very high on that one, and the treasure can be used for other things or simply as xp awards (like in old school games).



Very few actually.
1. Give them maxed out HP, but also see "Modified Monsters" spoiler in post #28.
2. Up their saving throws when relevant, according to "Saving-Throws Modifiers – Redefined" spoiler in post #3.


I see, if that's all, the conversion isn't that hard. Also I personally would ignore feat conversions saying that if a feat is picked by your racial hd it uses the old version (unless the feat and the rules it affects have changed radically).

That said I just noticed you used 4th edition saving throws, for the purpose of not having dump stats. I don't see how exactly this is achieved and I don't see many dump stats in your rules actually, except maybe charisma. Then again its hard to predict how all of your many houserules interact so I could be totally wrong.
This will result in many strength focused monsters having even better fortitude saves and generally monsters with higher saves will be even harder to affect for spellcasters, who now have lower dc's because of MAD on spellcasting and less magic items. Again I haven't run any actual numbers so I could be totally wrong here.
But on that note what spell dc's do you expect a 15th level wizard or caster generally to have?
Thinking further about maybe without resistance adding items players might need this revised saves rule to make up for it?

What do you think would be the effect of removing the redifined saving throws modifiers from your houserules?



No. it means that if one has multiple magical effects that augment a given character stat (ability score, attack bonus, deflection bonus to AC, etc.) they overlap and only the highest augmentation applies.


That's what I thought, thanks for clarifying



Better rather than differently.
See "By Categories" spoiler (inside "Modified Feats", post #8).


Ah yes that's what I meant, but I couldn't find it.



I wouldn't, for the simple reason that dying of oldage is not something one should be concerned about.
Downtime should never accumulate to dangerous levels, otherwise the DM is doing something terribly wrong.
Also, quite a few classes overcome oldage altogether (Jester, Priest, Druid, Warlock, Witch, Monk, Dragon Evolutionist, Time Bender, Elementalist, Radiant Soul).
On top of that, there's Lichdom, Green Star Adept, Bone Knight, divinity and Highlander immortality.

But if I would, I'd make it like that:
6th character level: +20% to character's age steps and maximum age.
12th character level: +50%
18th character level: +100%

Seems reasonable, though downtime for elfs and dwarfs isn't controlled by oldage, but more likely by dm intervention.

I was thinking sth like:

6th level half elf lifespan
12 level dwarf lifespan
18 level elf lifespan

Some extra things:

In your general rules ability score progression you write "Special: Once per 6 character levels, a general feat can be used to raise one's ability score and ability limits by +1." do you mean "to raise one's ability scores" so all ability scores are increased?


The rogue seems to be able to coup de grace as a sneak attack, isn't this a bit excessive? Again its hard to tell for me because I can't see all the rule interactions. At 15 level your sneak attack is 8d6, 10d6 total damage with a short sword for coup de grace and lets say str 14 for another +4. That's 39+10=49 dc save, it pretty much kills anything you can sneak attack automatically. Considering you have anti immunity to
3 enemy types for sneak attack as a class feature and darkstalker it, at least initially, seems to me very few enemies will be able to do sth about this.

nonsi
2018-10-02, 04:29 PM
I haven't run any numbers but my fear is without magic items classes will be very vulnerable, especially on saves and ac.


If there's one thing that I'm sure of, is that my classes are anything but vulnerable.
None of the core classes comes on its own anywhere near the level of survivability as my classes.





I am also considering running published adventures with your rules, treasure and magic items unchanged


Amen to that. I'd love to know how things go at the gaming table.





simply disallowing or severly hampering magic item trading, which will make things much more straightforward and faster.


That's an upside I didn't mention, but I do believe it to be so.





treasure can be used for other things or simply as xp awards (like in old school games).


Going back to "Encounter-CRs and XP Awards", I think that magical gear should affect XP calculations if and only if it makes the encounter more difficult in practice.
Now the DM only needs assessing what was the in-practice CR.
That way, your notion comes into practice on one hand and is very simple to execute on the other hand.





Also I personally would ignore feat conversions saying that if a feat is picked by your racial hd it uses the old version (unless the feat and the rules it affects have changed radically).


I think that using different versions of feats would probably turn out to make things more confusing.
And on that note, another thing I forgot to mention in monster adaptation is to replace omitted feats (e.g. Power Attack)





That said I just noticed you used 4th edition saving throws, for the purpose of not having dump stats. I don't see how exactly this is achieved and I don't see many dump stats in your rules actually, except maybe charisma.


Since each level comes with an ability boost, any dump stat means that you have less ability scores to put those ability boosts into.
The save-redundancy approach gives more incentive to make previously unorthodox character builds and give more room for players to build the characters they envision rather than always building given classes around the same ability scores or end up shooting themselves in the leg.





This will result in many strength focused monsters having even better fortitude saves and generally monsters with higher saves will be even harder to affect for spellcasters, who now have lower dc's because of MAD on spellcasting and less magic items.


A far better ability package to start with plus an ability boost at each level practically guarantee that MAD is far less of an issue now.
Also, I wanna talk about spellcasters overcoming DCs. A few years back I played a 6th level Beguiler and made an excessive use of SoS effects. I was so good at it that I got kicked out of the group for ruining the fun for all the other players. I'm more than ok with SoS effects being a gambit. This would give more room to damage effects and save (partial) effects.





But on that note what spell dc's do you expect a 15th level wizard or caster generally to have?


The same as for official 3.5e. When facing a really tough cookie, you should really give SoS effects (which are basically an "I win" button) a serious consideration before spamming them.





What do you think would be the effect of removing the redifined saving throws modifiers from your houserules?


1. Less means of offsetting gear reduction.
2. Less room for maneuvering with character builds.





Seems reasonable, though downtime for elfs and dwarfs isn't controlled by oldage, but more likely by dm intervention.

I was thinking sth like:

6th level half elf lifespan
12 level dwarf lifespan
18 level elf lifespan


Doesn't bother me, but this would practically remove the age differences between the races and make longer lifespan a no-reason for choosing a race for having a longer lifespan.





In your general rules ability score progression you write "Special: Once per 6 character levels, a general feat can be used to raise one's ability score and ability limits by +1." do you mean "to raise one's ability scores" so all ability scores are increased?


Absolutely not. This would practically make this option a no-brainer. You should only use it if it really makes a difference for you – and usually every class has that one ability score that really affects its power level. Like any other benefit, you should spend your resources on it only when it counts (i.e. raising the chosen ability score from an odd number to the next even value). If it makes a difference – take it. If not – don't.
In a perfect world, all feats are made equal and choices amount to player's vision of the character. Still, I'm trying to bring feats as close as possible to one another. When a feat is obviously superior to most other feats, the chances that it sees use increase and you end up with the same builds over and over again.

[Edit]: Just for comparison, I know of only a single official 3.5e race that grants +2 to Int with LA +0 (Gray Elf, with -2 to Str) and I see no reason to think why it wouldn't be the obvious choice for Int-based classes and scoundrel type classes. That's how much another +1 to the modifier of the right ability can affect a character's effectiveness.





The rogue seems to be able to coup de grace as a sneak attack, isn't this a bit excessive? Again its hard to tell for me because I can't see all the rule interactions. At 15 level your sneak attack is 8d6, 10d6 total damage with a short sword for coup de grace and lets say str 14 for another +4. That's 39+10=49 dc save, it pretty much kills anything you can sneak attack automatically. Considering you have anti immunity to
3 enemy types for sneak attack as a class feature and darkstalker it, at least initially, seems to me very few enemies will be able to do sth about this.


This is absolutely a correct observation.
I'll need to see how I resolve this issue and I'd really prefer not to resort to a daily #uses limit, but rather make it more situational.
Suggestions would be appreciated.

Just an observation: you can't coup-de-grace creatures with no anatomy - even if you know how to effectively SA them.

VladtheLad
2018-10-03, 09:20 AM
If there's one thing that I'm sure of, is that my classes are anything but vulnerable.
None of the core classes comes on its own anywhere near the level of survivability as my classes.


Oh absolutely, but still magic items are pretty big numeric power booster. I guess only if I actually sat down and created characters with your classes I would have an informed opinion and even then that can't replace actually playtesting them.



Going back to "Encounter-CRs and XP Awards", I think that magical gear should affect XP calculations if and only if it makes the encounter more difficult in practice.
Now the DM only needs assessing what was the in-practice CR.
That way, your notion comes into practice on one hand and is very simple to execute on the other hand.


I was talking about getting xp from the treasure you bring back, not about magical gear affecting xp award calculations.




I think that using different versions of feats would probably turn out to make things more confusing.
And on that note, another thing I forgot to mention in monster adaptation is to replace omitted feats (e.g. Power Attack)


Understood, btw feats is one aspect of your system I have explored the least of.



Since each level comes with an ability boost, any dump stat means that you have less ability scores to put those ability boosts into.
The save-redundancy approach gives more incentive to make previously unorthodox character builds and give more room for players to build the characters they envision rather than always building given classes around the same ability scores or end up shooting themselves in the leg.


I am a bit confused on how this is achieved exactly. I am trying to think of some examples:
You can now play a wizard that focuses on strength a bit more than constitution without gimping his fortitude save, or a fighter than can have higher charisma than wisdom which is unlikely in 3.5 and a cleric with high intelligence and low dexterity.
Basically stength, intelligence and charisma and especially strength and charisma have the potential to not be dump stats as often?




A far better ability package to start with plus an ability boost at each level practically guarantee that MAD is far less of an issue now.
Also, I wanna talk about spellcasters overcoming DCs. A few years back I played a 6th level Beguiler and made an excessive use of SoS effects. I was so good at it that I got kicked out of the group for ruining the fun for all the other players. I'm more than ok with SoS effects being a gambit. This would give more room to damage effects and save (partial) effects.





The same as for official 3.5e. When facing a really tough cookie, you should really give SoS effects (which are basically an "I win" button) a serious consideration before spamming them.


Oh if the dc's will be the same as for official 3.5 then they are more than enough. I was pretty sure the dc's would be ok at low levels, but I am a bit worried about high levels. You will have less gold and more expensive magic items so most likely a weaker headband of intelligence cloak of charisma. I was also worried about the split stats and the fact that a wizard will need both intelligence and charisma, but it is true that the extra ability points make up for that.



1. Less means of offsetting gear reduction.
2. Less room for maneuvering with character builds.


Hmm I 'll run it then as you propose, though I never really minded 2 and perhaps 1 can be solved with just more treasure.



Doesn't bother me, but this would practically remove the age differences between the races and make longer lifespan a no-reason for choosing a race for having a longer lifespan.


True.
Its funny because part of it is ironing the mechanical differences between players, after all races are supposedly mechanically equal, and the other part affects setting assumptions.
As things are there is no direct explanation why elfs don't just dominate other races by aquiring levels. At older edition level limits performed that role, now you have to say elves are bored, barren, mad or utterly detach level gaining from the passage of time.

In any case to be honest I don't especially mind how the DM goes about this issue.



Absolutely not. This would practically make this option a no-brainer. You should only use it if it really makes a difference for you – and usually every class has that one ability score that really affects its power level. Like any other benefit, you should spend your resources on it only when it counts (i.e. raising the chosen ability score from an odd number to the next even value). If it makes a difference – take it. If not – don't.
In a perfect world, all feats are made equal and choices amount to player's vision of the character. Still, I'm trying to bring feats as close as possible to one another. When a feat is obviously superior to most other feats, the chances that it sees use increase and you end up with the same builds over and over again.

[Edit]: Just for comparison, I know of only a single official 3.5e race that grants +2 to Int with LA +0 (Gray Elf, with -2 to Str) and I see no reason to think why it wouldn't be the obvious choice for Int-based classes and scoundrel type classes. That's how much another +1 to the modifier of the right ability can affect a character's effectiveness.


Oh yes it did seem a tad too good to me. My point is you should then change the text to " Once per 6 character levels, a general feat can be used to raise one ability score and ability limits by +1."




This is absolutely a correct observation.
I'll need to see how I resolve this issue and I'd really prefer not to resort to a daily #uses limit, but rather make it more situational.
Suggestions would be appreciated.


Yes I would also dislike uses per day for sth like this.
Perhaps in the same conditions mentioned in the rogue entry (full/standard action and unobserved) double the sneak attack damage? At level 15 tripple it?
Or simply add your dex mod to the sneak attack damage die?




Just an observation: you can't coup-de-grace creatures with no anatomy - even if you know how to effectively SA them.

Ah I see, you are correct, that makes it much more tame then.


Other stuff:

The jester class you have is from Frank and K's dungeonomicon, so author isn't unknown.

The druid's Avenger of nature ability says you add twice your wisdom bonus, do you mean add one time your wisdom bonus and one your charisma bonus or two times your wisdom bonus and one time your charisma bonus?
A bit of silly aging nitpick (another point about aging for some reason!) but druid turning into a plant type could affect his aging, though he does overcome this totally at 20th level.

I get the feeling from reading your houserules, that you might appreciate adventurer conqueror king's domain managament rules. I suggest you check them out, maybeyou will find sth usable in them, even if they are made for classic dnd.

nonsi
2018-10-04, 02:43 AM
I was talking about getting xp from the treasure you bring back, not about magical gear affecting xp award calculations.

I know how it went in prev editions.
I'm against it for 2 reasons:
1. It makes no sense: items don't teach you new ways of how to cope with challenges, so there's no reason why they'd take direct part in XP accumulation.
2. It's an effective way of producing malcontent players and an ever increasing pressure on the DM from the players' side (which is bound to lead to WBL incline). Been there, done that.





Understood, btw feats is one aspect of your system I have explored the least of.

Like everything else in the overhaul, everything that I've done with feats was motivated by 2 main goals:
1. Bringing them closer together – to make feat selection revolve more around vision of character than choosing optimal builds.
2. Making any imaginable character concept viable.
Also, some of them are essential since there are no PrCs in the overhaul.





I am a bit confused on how this is achieved exactly. I am trying to think of some examples:
You can now play a wizard that focuses on strength a bit more than constitution without gimping his fortitude save, or a fighter than can have higher charisma than wisdom which is unlikely in 3.5 and a cleric with high intelligence and low dexterity.
Basically stength, intelligence and charisma and especially strength and charisma have the potential to not be dump stats as often?

Not just those in specific, but basically that.





I was pretty sure the dc's would be ok at low levels, but I am a bit worried about high levels. You will have less gold and more expensive magic items so most likely a weaker headband of intelligence cloak of charisma.

If you look at "Offensive and Defensive Magical Plusses" spoiler (post #4), you'll see that there's no longer a headband of intelligence or a cloak of charisma.





Oh yes it did seem a tad too good to me. My point is you should then change the text to " Once per 6 character levels, a general feat can be used to raise one ability score and ability limits by +1."

Go it.





Yes I would also dislike uses per day for sth like this.
Perhaps in the same conditions mentioned in the rogue entry (full/standard action and unobserved) double the sneak attack damage? At level 15 tripple it?
Or simply add your dex mod to the sneak attack damage die?

I believe that the problem is now taken care of.
Also, I think you had a slight error in the DC calculation. 15th level grants 6 SA dice, and a medium short sword deals 1d6 base damage, so that's 7d6 overall (not including Improved Sneak Attack special ability, which can push it to 9d6 at 15th).






The jester class you have is from Frank and K's dungeonomicon, so author isn't unknown.

Yes, that was a leftover.
The credit is in the Credits section.





The druid's Avenger of nature ability says you add twice your wisdom bonus, do you mean add one time your wisdom bonus and one your charisma bonus or two times your wisdom bonus and one time your charisma bonus?

1. Cha was never a part of this ability. It's all about willpower and intuition, not force of personality.
2. I re-worded Avenger of Nature and modified it a bit (+1 per level is a bit crazy, so I toned it down).






A bit of silly aging nitpick (another point about aging for some reason!) but druid turning into a plant type could affect his aging, though he does overcome this totally at 20th level.

1. Extending character age twice via class features seems redundant to me.
2. I'm already scratching the content limit for the Druid entry. This might come at the expense of more important future corrections/changes.





I get the feeling from reading your houserules, that you might appreciate adventurer conqueror king's domain managament rules. I suggest you check them out, maybeyou will find sth usable in them, even if they are made for classic dnd.

Are you talking about the STRONGHOLDS AND DOMAINS section (p.125)?
Seems like an expansion of what's suggested in Rules Cyclopedia (BECMI).
I'm not categorically against stronghold rules, but it seems quite tedious for players that just wanna sit around the table and have fun.
1. It promotes individual sessions with the DM, which is bad for group meetings.
2. If two or more players start messing around with strongholds, this might get real messy very fast.

On that note, mass combat rules could be a nice addition....... provided you don't get too much into rules about how to build a low-level army.

VladtheLad
2018-10-04, 05:16 AM
I know how it went in prev editions.
I'm against it for 2 reasons:
1. It makes no sense: items don't teach you new ways of how to cope with challenges, so there's no reason why they'd take direct part in XP accumulation.
2. It's an effective way of producing malcontent players and an ever increasing pressure on the DM from the players' side (which is bound to lead to WBL incline). Been there, done that.


I think it works pretty well in old school games, if i were to implement it in 3.5 would be in a different way. Money you spend on class stuff like training, better training equipment, magic research, temple building, running your army, guild, academy or temple, buying ancient scrolls regarding your class grant you xp. The ration of xp/gp would have to obviously become smaller and smaller as you lvl up though.

Just to clarify I am not suggesting you implement it in your houserules, I simply mentioned my own preference two posts back.

As an aside though how would you feel about a level progression where is easier to gain the lower lvls than the higher ones?




If you look at "Offensive and Defensive Magical Plusses" spoiler (post #4), you'll see that there's no longer a headband of intelligence or a cloak of charisma.


So there is no way to buff your spell dc's which based on charisma? So lvl 20 wizard who starts with 16 charisma will have 21 at level 20, which will make his dc's 16-24?
Those seem too low to me.
Also if you cast magic vestment to a ring does it give a deflection bonus? If no is it even possible to gain a deflection bonus to ac from a magic item?





I believe that the problem is now taken care of.
Also, I think you had a slight error in the DC calculation. 15th level grants 6 SA dice, and a medium short sword deals 1d6 base damage, so that's 7d6 overall (not including Improved Sneak Attack special ability, which can push it to 9d6 at 15th).


Hmm I think I didn't use your critical rules but the original critical rules. I also forgot to add any bonus damage due to a magic weapon.
In any case I think your solution works.



1. Cha was never a part of this ability. It's all about willpower and intuition, not force of personality.
2. I re-worded Avenger of Nature and modified it a bit (+1 per level is a bit crazy, so I toned it down).


Yes but charisma adds to all save dc's for spellcasting. So its charisma bonus+ wisdom bonus at the very least.



1. Extending character age twice via class features seems redundant to me.
2. I'm already scratching the content limit for the Druid entry. This might come at the expense of more important future corrections/changes.


Agreed.



Are you talking about the STRONGHOLDS AND DOMAINS section?
Seems like an expansion of what's suggested in Rules Cyclopedia (BECMI).
I'm not categorically against stronghold rules, but it seems quite tedious for players that just wanna sit around the table and have fun.
1. It promotes individual sessions with the DM, which is bad for group meetings.
2. If two or more players start messing around with strongholds, this might get real messy very fast.

On that note, mass combat rules could be a nice addition....... provided you don't get too much into rules about how to build a low-level army.

Yes, regarding individual sessions, I have always handed these things with skype and emails. If a player doesn't want to partake that's cool too.

There is a supplement for mass combat for the same game. Its called domains of war, though I suppose it uses rules based on he originals economy so ymmv.

On the other side pathfinder has some rules (Kingmaker/Ultimate Campaign) and expansions-fixes on those rules exists from legendary games (Ultimate Battles/Rulership) no idea if they are worth it though.

nonsi
2018-10-04, 03:51 PM
As an aside though how would you feel about a level progression where is easier to gain the lower lvls than the higher ones?

I think it would take the wind out of players' motivation to continue at high levels.
My best practice with the game experience and fun is roughly a level once every 4 or 5 gaming sessions. That's about 1 level per 20 encounters. Just the right time to experience all the goodies that were gained in the current level and move on.
Making it an ever increasing uphill climb would probably make things feel tedious.





So there is no way to buff your spell dc's which based on charisma? So lvl 20 wizard who starts with 16 charisma will have 21 at level 20

1. Eagle's Splendor raises Cha.
2. If you start with 16 Cha, you still have a racial limit of 18 (unless you're a dwarf or some other race with inherent Cha penalties). So that's 23 of the board – 26 (i.e. +8) if you put 3 general feats into it.
3. I assume that it's within reason that a 9th level spell could raise an ability score by +6. Make an appropriate item and you have it covered.
That's potentially +11 at level 20.
I really don't think that you need more than this.





Also if you cast magic vestment to a ring does it give a deflection bonus? If no is it even possible to gain a deflection bonus to ac from a magic item?

I'd count magic vestment as deflection bonus, since it includes "an outfit of regular clothing".
Also see "'Personal' Spell Effects" spoiler under "Redefining Magical Items' Creation"





Yes but charisma adds to all save dc's for spellcasting. So its charisma bonus+ wisdom bonus at the very least.

Absolutely. Features always come in addition to the general rules.





There is a supplement for mass combat for the same game. Its called domains of war, though I suppose it uses rules based on he originals economy so ymmv.

Couldn't find it.






On the other side pathfinder has some rules (Kingmaker/Ultimate Campaign) and expansions-fixes on those rules exists from legendary games (Ultimate Battles/Rulership) no idea if they are worth it though.

I'm not fascinated enough by the subject to devise rules for mass combat, but if I find anything that will sit well with me I'll reference it.
In the meantime, I've referenced the stronghold rules you suggested (on post #29).

VladtheLad
2018-10-05, 09:10 AM
1. Eagle's Splendor raises Cha.
2. If you start with 16 Cha, you still have a racial limit of 18 (unless you're a dwarf or some other race with inherent Cha penalties). So that's 23 of the board – 26 (i.e. +8) if you put 3 general feats into it.
3. I assume that it's within reason that a 9th level spell could raise an ability score by +6. Make an appropriate item and you have it covered.
That's potentially +11 at level 20.
I really don't think that you need more than this.


Missed that you push racial ability score limits and not your intial score.
+11 is certainly more than enough, that said it would require though 3 general feats, starting with 16 charisma, investing 7 levels of raised ability scores and an item that costs 9splvl*6000 constant*1,85 caster level=99.900gp which is excessive for half WBL and I am not sure I missed anything.
Ofcourse even a +4 charisma item would be okeyish and that would be much much cheaper.
To be honest 3 general feats are also a bit much considering you need another two to make sure you have good saves at high levels, so reach 5 feats already commited.
However with no general feats 22 charisma and a +4 you can reach 26 charisma which is workable.

If you are lvl 1, with 32 point buy and the stats are sth like
str 8 dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 10 cha 16, you would end up with
At level 20 you would end up with str 8 dex 14 con 20 int 22 wis 10 cha 22
with no feats or magic items.

As an aside does the mage have a limit on spells known? How does int help him, with extra spells known, if he hasn't a limit on them?




I'd count magic vestment as deflection bonus, since it includes "an outfit of regular clothing".
Also see "'Personal' Spell Effects" spoiler under "Redefining Magical Items' Creation"


So you can have magic vestment on you armor giving you an armor bonus and one on your ring giving you a deflection bonus?
Or does it always grant a deflection bonus wherever you put it?

What? Magic vestment isn't a personal effect.



Absolutely. Features always come in addition to the general rules.


Yes, but the "twice your wisdom modifier" made me think maybe it was a left over from when druid used wisdom modifier for spells, that's why I mentioned it.



Couldn't find it.


Stupid mistake, Domains at war.

nonsi
2018-10-05, 11:58 PM
Missed that you push racial ability score limits and not your intial score.
+11 is certainly more than enough, that said it would require though 3 general feats, starting with 16 charisma, investing 7 levels of raised ability scores and an item that costs 9splvl*6000 constant*1,85 caster level=99.900gp which is excessive for half WBL and I am not sure I missed anything.
Ofcourse even a +4 charisma item would be okeyish and that would be much much cheaper.
To be honest 3 general feats are also a bit much considering you need another two to make sure you have good saves at high levels, so reach 5 feats already commited.
However with no general feats 22 charisma and a +4 you can reach 26 charisma which is workable.

That's right. +8 is definitely solid.
It's ok to be a pig and go for broke toward +11, but....... it takes a heavy toll and players should make their own calculations if they're willing to pay it.
Raising the DC bar by +3 (+5 for some spells with Greater Spell Focus) is a significant power boost. It's supposed to have a significant toll on character resources.





If you are lvl 1, with 32 point buy and the stats are sth like
str 8 dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 10 cha 16, you would end up with
At level 20 you would end up with str 8 dex 14 con 20 int 22 wis 10 cha 22
with no feats or magic items.

Check out "Optional Rules & Brews" spoiler at post #29. In it there's a link: "Alternative Stat Rolling Rules".
In a game where it's a lot harder to abuse stats, that proposal doesn't seem outrageous to me.
. . . but I guess it's a matter of personal taste, that's why those links are placed at post #29 rather than post #5.





As an aside does the mage have a limit on spells known? How does int help him, with extra spells known, if he hasn't a limit on them?

Under "Arcane Spellcasting" the Mage has an inner spoiler: "Mage Spells-Permanently-Memorized".
- Those are the class' Spells Known: the base package that the character keeps even if she's somehow deprived of her spellbooks.
- On top of that you have a small pool of floating memorization: some flexible daily addition to play with.
Both amount to a bit less than what an official Wizard can memorize daily. But...
- On top of that there's the casting from an open book part: I've seen that more than once in fantasy films/series. That's also the part of not losing a day for making bad memorization choices.
Without spellcasting a mage has absolutely nothing, so it only makes sense that the Mage class gets the most out of them.






So you can have magic vestment on you armor giving you an armor bonus and one on your ring giving you a deflection bonus?
Or does it always grant a deflection bonus wherever you put it?

Stat benefits from any given spell are expressed in only one manner. This is something that seems to me to belong to the "goes w/o saying" part.
Either armor or deflection, not both. My common sense goes with deflection.





Yes, but the "twice your wisdom modifier" made me think maybe it was a left over from when druid used wisdom modifier for spells, that's why I mentioned it.

The Druid still uses Wis as its primary casting stat.
It's divine spellcasting (the Priest) that is changed to Cha – for 3 reasons:
- You need inner conviction (force of personality) to follow your faith.
- You need to be charismatic to convert others to your faith.
- Turn/Rebuke Undead is Cha-based.





Stupid mistake, Domains at war.

Way too long. It's an entire system in and on itself.
BECMI Rules Cyclopedia (TSR 1071, 1992) had something a lot shorter and way more coherent (but that proposal was quite inaccurate and hand-wavy).

VladtheLad
2018-10-08, 08:34 AM
Sorry for responging late but here it goes.


That's right. +8 is definitely solid.
It's ok to be a pig and go for broke toward +11, but....... it takes a heavy toll and players should make their own calculations if they're willing to pay it.
Raising the DC bar by +3 (+5 for some spells with Greater Spell Focus) is a significant power boost. It's supposed to have a significant toll on character resources.


I still think its too much, especially compared to how much the +2 dc costs, but that is easily fixed by making it a 6th level spell instead of a 9th level one.
In any case the changes in gp magic item calculation are many and I need to invest more time to fully grasp them.



Check out "Optional Rules & Brews" spoiler at post #29. In it there's a link: "Alternative Stat Rolling Rules".
In a game where it's a lot harder to abuse stats, that proposal doesn't seem outrageous to me.
. . . but I guess it's a matter of personal taste, that's why those links are placed at post #29 rather than post #5.


Yeah that would fit your overhaul better.



Under "Arcane Spellcasting" the Mage has an inner spoiler: "Mage Spells-Permanently-Memorized".
- Those are the class' Spells Known: the base package that the character keeps even if she's somehow deprived of her spellbooks.
- On top of that you have a small pool of floating memorization: some flexible daily addition to play with.
Both amount to a bit less than what an official Wizard can memorize daily. But...
- On top of that there's the casting from an open book part: I've seen that more than once in fantasy films/series. That's also the part of not losing a day for making bad memorization choices.
Without spellcasting a mage has absolutely nothing, so it only makes sense that the Mage class gets the most out of them.


I had found it at some point and then for some reason I kept missing it.
So intelligence adds to the spells known per day in a sense, or more precicely to available spells known for casting.



Stat benefits from any given spell are expressed in only one manner. This is something that seems to me to belong to the "goes w/o saying" part.
Either armor or deflection, not both. My common sense goes with deflection.


Okey so you can at max add a +5 to your ac from magic item bonuses? Barring increasing your dexterity?
Maybe I am missing sth, but I can't think of anything else.
Ah maybe you could have an item that gives you permanent barkskin?



The Druid still uses Wis as its primary casting stat.
It's divine spellcasting (the Priest) that is changed to Cha – for 3 reasons:
- You need inner conviction (force of personality) to follow your faith.
- You need to be charismatic to convert others to your faith.
- Turn/Rebuke Undead is Cha-based.


Oh didn't mean he didn't use wis as a primary casing stat, I was talking about spell dc calculation, where everything uses charisma as far as I understand

nonsi
2018-10-08, 11:43 PM
I still think its too much, especially compared to how much the +2 dc costs, but that is easily fixed by making it a 6th level spell instead of a 9th level one.
In any case the changes in gp magic item calculation are many and I need to invest more time to fully grasp them.

That's fine. Remember that all game rules – official as well as unofficial – are all suggestions. You can stretch them as you see fit.
My objective was to tell stories more about awesome characters and less about awesome gear.
Just note to be careful how you up the numbers. Too much would make things too easy for the players, which would come at the expense of sense of accomplishment.





So intelligence adds to the spells known per day in a sense, or more precicely to available spells known for casting.

If to be accurate, Int adds to the pool of knowledge (i.e. known spell) for all casters.
Specifically for Mages (Int-based casters), it also adds to their tolerance pool / spell points (according to the spellcasting mechanism you choose to adopt).





Okey so you can at max add a +5 to your ac from magic item bonuses? Barring increasing your dexterity?
Maybe I am missing sth, but I can't think of anything else.
Ah maybe you could have an item that gives you permanent barkskin?

Indeed that could work... and then there's also "Bestow Spell-Like Ability", along with its continuation feat "Spell-like to Supernatural Conversion" (which is a bit more costly in terms of character resources, but also way more permanent).
I'm considering upping the cost of the latter when it comes to spells with short duration. Not sure by how much ATM.

nonsi
2018-12-08, 09:26 AM
.

Status Report since last update:


Mirror Dancer and Colossus Hammer classes added. With a high probability, the last classes I homebrew for this project (or anything for that matter).
Craft skill resolved for high-level play.
Giant races redesigned.
New monster added: Chupacabra.
Revenant imported from 5e (that one’s a big “should’ve-been in 3.Xe”)
A handful of monsters tweaked slightly.
Armor and DR rules added.
Aasimar & Tiefling adapted to the codex as LA +0 races.
"Restrained" condition adopted from 5e and adjusted for 3e mechanics.
Weapons section enriched with more weapons and more options.
Gravity Mage concept introduced
Classes by Frequency of Appearance distinction added
A few more feats, spells and invocations added.
A handful of spells imported (referenced) from 5e.

nonsi
2019-01-16, 04:11 AM
.

A small update this time:

Cyclops added to the New Monsters section (post #31).
Tortel added to the Races section (post #6)

VladtheLad
2019-06-02, 04:28 AM
Hey Nonsi, hopefully you are still brewing in this thread. I have read your rules some more and I have some questions, maybe even suggestions.

1)Why do racial hd get max hp? Is it because you try to differenciate between hp from experience and hp from physical qualities/race. Or is there a balance reason?

2) Regarding SLA you said:


Nonsi:
No and yes.
SLAs always had #uses per day and never counted as regular spellcasting. No reason to change that.
Spellcasting should work the same for everyone, otherwise it'll complicate things.


So are SLAs affected by Severe conditions effects, Battlefield control spells and Casting Defensively under the Mechanics of Spellcasting? If yes, aren't spellcasting monsters nerfed pretty hard? Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, I just want to clarify

3) You mentioned you would change the feats the monsters have to your new versions.
Maybe you should mention in your houserules how toughness, combat reflexes and save enhancers change the monsters. Toughness especially. Picking an edge case the Tarrasque will have 4194 hp which seems excessive (I counted toughness only 5 times not 6 as it can't take it 6 times according to your rules).
On that note toughness seems excessive to me in general even for player characters.


4)Your item creation system doesn't differentiate between durations of spells. For example divine agility is a pretty good spell to put in an item. Granting +10 dex for 32.400gp? As an aside you can use Conviction at caster level 18th for the +5 bonus to saves, for 11.400gp as a replacement for cloaks of resistance.


Maybe you should factor the spell duration to the price of permanent items. For example spells at 1 min per level have the normal cost and spells with lower duration cost more while spells with a higher duration cost less.

5) Darkstalker ignoring blindsight is super wrong. Many creatures with blindsight have no spot or listen ranks and are blind, you could make it so that dark stalker turns blindsight into blindsense or tremorsense.

nonsi
2019-06-03, 09:37 PM
Hey Nonsi, hopefully you are still brewing in this thread.


Yes, still brewing. But it’s getting more and more challenging to find new ideas, improvements or lingering errors that require corrections.





1)Why do racial hd get max hp? Is it because you try to differenciate between hp from experience and hp from physical qualities/race. Or is there a balance reason?


Among the more frustrating things I remember when starting new parties was the high level of fatalities associated with pure bad luck of dice rolls at early levels that constantly required the DM to cheat to avoid TPKs and forced repeated stat-rolling for new characters.

On the monsters’ side... with personal experience, players find more and more techniques to increase the party’s damage output, which means that if they manage to ensure a 50% hit ratio and their opponents don’t have a massive amount of HP, the encounters usually end within 4 rounds.





So are SLAs affected by Severe conditions effects, Battlefield control spells and Casting Defensively under the Mechanics of Spellcasting? If yes, aren't spellcasting monsters nerfed pretty hard? Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, I just want to clarify


This is offset by the versatility that spells grant. Every spellcaster should have fallback spells that are maybe less potent, but easier to execute.





3) You mentioned you would change the feats the monsters have to your new versions.
Maybe you should mention in your houserules how toughness, combat reflexes and save enhancers change the monsters. Toughness especially. Picking an edge case the Tarrasque will have 4194 hp which seems excessive (I counted toughness only 5 times not 6 as it can't take it 6 times according to your rules).
On that note toughness seems excessive to me in general even for player characters.


I’m not sure how you’re getting those numbers.
The official Tarrasque has 48d10+594 (858 hp). Even maxed-out, this amounts to 1074.
Con 35 = +12. Therefore, 5 times (12 +48) equals 300.
This gives us a total of 1374, and even that’s only when taking things to the extreme.





4)Your item creation system doesn't differentiate between durations of spells. For example divine agility is a pretty good spell to put in an item. Granting +10 dex for 32.400gp? As an aside you can use Conviction at caster level 18th for the +5 bonus to saves, for 11.400gp as a replacement for cloaks of resistance.

Maybe you should factor the spell duration to the price of permanent items. For example spells at 1 min per level have the normal cost and spells with lower duration cost more while spells with a higher duration cost less.


This is odd. I was sure I had this issue addressed. Maybe it was a suggestion that I made as a reply and forgot to incorporate it into the codex.
I’ll give it some thought to figure out how durations affect prices of permanent items (I’d probably limit thing to 2 or 3 steps at most).




5) Darkstalker ignoring blindsight is super wrong. Many creatures with blindsight have no spot or listen ranks and are blind, you could make it so that dark stalker turns blindsight into blindsense or tremorsense.


Or maybe make Blindsense would grant +10 to Spot while Blindsight would grant +20.

VladtheLad
2019-06-04, 04:18 AM
Yes, still brewing. But it’s getting more and more challenging to find new ideas, improvements or lingering errors that require corrections.


Well that's good in a sense.



Among the more frustrating things I remember when starting new parties was the high level of fatalities associated with pure bad luck of dice rolls at early levels that constantly required the DM to cheat to avoid TPKs and forced repeated stat-rolling for new characters.

On the monsters’ side... with personal experience, players find more and more techniques to increase the party’s damage output, which means that if they manage to ensure a 50% hit ratio and their opponents don’t have a massive amount of HP, the encounters usually end within 4 rounds.



Ah I see, so its more like a balance issue.

This is offset by the versatility that spells grant. Every spellcaster should have fallback spells that are maybe less potent, but easier to execute.






I’m not sure how you’re getting those numbers.
The official Tarrasque has 48d10+594 (858 hp). Even maxed-out, this amounts to 1074.
Con 35 = +12. Therefore, 5 times (12 +48) equals 300.
This gives us a total of 1374, and even that’s only when taking things to the extreme.

I read that toughness grants you (con modifier+1) hp per level not con mod+1hp per level. Ok that's fine.





This is odd. I was sure I had this issue addressed. Maybe it was a suggestion that I made as a reply and forgot to incorporate it into the codex.
I’ll give it some thought to figure out how durations affect prices of permanent items (I’d probably limit thing to 2 or 3 steps at most).


Sounds fine.



Or maybe make Blindsense would grant +10 to Spot while Blindsight would grant +20.

I don't think blindsense needs changing and it seems this would make these abilities even better.

nonsi
2019-06-07, 07:51 AM
Sounds fine.


What do you think about the following solution?

Optional: Spell Durations and Permanency
Spells with duration of 24 hours or longer duration all use the formula given above for permanent magical effects.
Spells with a shorter duration add 10%, 20%, 40% and 80% respectively (see "Spell Durations Redefined" above)
Motivation: Duration is a major balancing factor of spells. More potent effects are given shorter durations, so it only makes sense that turning them into permanent effects should be more costly.





I don't think blindsense needs changing and it seems this would make these abilities even better.


And what if that clause was specifically aimed toward Darkstalker?

Roland St. Jude
2019-06-08, 09:00 PM
Hey Nonsi, hopefully you are still brewing in this thread. I have read your rules some more and I have some questions, maybe even suggestions.
Sheriff: Thread necromancy is generally prohibited here. If you find an old Homebrew thread and have questions, try PMing the brewer and they can answer or revive the thread.

nonsi
2019-06-10, 11:29 AM
Sheriff: Thread necromancy is generally prohibited here. If you find an old Homebrew thread and have questions, try PMing the brewer and they can answer or revive the thread.


Greetings.
I'd appreciate it if this thread could be excluded from the Thread-Necromancy policy.
This overhaul is an ongoing project and as far a I have a say on that matter it remains active for as long as I'm taking part of the activity here.
I believe that it would be pointless and counterproductive on my part to bump it periodically just for the sake of making a statement that it's still active.
I took every reasonable step I could think of to keep it alive. It seems to me that periodic bumping would be a step too far.

Thanks.

Durzan
2019-06-10, 04:30 PM
You could request that it be stickied, I suppose.

nonsi
2019-06-13, 10:59 AM
You could request that it be stickied, I suppose.

If only...

While the thought is by all means appealing, AFAIK sticky threads were always restricted here to the category of "serves the general public's interest" and never for someone's personal homebrew materials (except for The Giant... privileges of rank :smallbiggrin:).
I seriously doubt they'll make an exception on my behalf - definitely not when 3e is no longer the official D&D edition.
It's a nice thought though :smallsmile:

nonsi
2019-09-14, 02:40 PM
Ok, given that 3e activity is extremely slow here lately (with even less noticeable amount of exchange of ideas), I thought of bumping this project to try and liven things up.
Everybody's welcome to plunder ideas and use/abuse them as they see fit.
Questions and comments regarding this thread's contents are also welcome.

Pakis54
2020-01-09, 05:32 AM
oh man i really enjoyed this some years back,the whole idea of it, your intro, the spellacsting part etc....dont know how much time ur investing in it now...have u playtested it a lot? real life has f**ed me up and i barely have time to play a bit of 3.5 now like once a month

nonsi
2020-01-10, 09:34 AM
oh man i really enjoyed this some years back,the whole idea of it, your intro, the spellacsting part etc....dont know how much time ur investing in it now...have u playtested it a lot? real life has f**ed me up and i barely have time to play a bit of 3.5 now like once a month

Greetings Pakis.
I have my hands quite full these days and don't really have the time or energy for further extensive researches. But whenever an inspiration pops up, I do my best to have it quickly resolved in here.
I personally stopped playing a few months before I started this project and it basically sums up my experiences (BECMI D&D, AD&D 1e & 2e, as well as 3e and 3.5e) along with all the various insights I've collected here and on previously active forums. And yet, I threw away about twice the volume of what's in here (everything that in the aftermath proved not to be an improvement - most of which was indicated by others, but for some I got to the conclusion myself).
AFAIK a lot of the stuff in here was play-tested in parts by others with satisfying results. Whatever few caveats and reservations people had presented (all revolved around how things could be made even better) were dealt with.
I never got feedback about the system as a whole, but I'm quite convinced it's solid. I'd like to hear if any proposed mechanics interact poorly with another proposed mechanics so that I can further improve things.

nonsi
2020-04-04, 07:08 AM
.

”Epic” Skills and Feats


Skill Additions drawn from D20SRD Epic Skills page (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm):

Writer's Note: One can easily notice that a lot of the DCs suggested below are quite lower than those suggested in the SRD. The motivation for this is that the core rules take into account easily obtainable magical enhancements to skill checks, whereas under this project enhancements to skill checks are only circumstantial and are never directly magic-derived. Furthermore, quite a few of the things made possible below were actually achieved by real life people. The rest were simply leveled with those.


Autohypnosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm)
Poison’s DC+5: Resist Poison: You don’t have to make a saving throw against the poison’s secondary damage.
DC 30: Stay Conscious: If reduced to negative HP but not dead, you don’t go unconscious and can continue taking actions until you bleed to death or stabilize.
DC 40: Mental Resistance: If a failed saving throw indicates you’re affected by any mind-affecting powers, spells, or (Sp) effects, make an immediate second saving throw to resist the effect.
If the mind-affecting effect normally does not allow a saving throw, a successful Autohypnosis check allows a saving throw.
DC 45: Durability: You gain temp HP equal to [10 + Wis-mod]. The temp HP persist until lost. You cannot check for temp HP more than once per day.
Temp HP gained through Autohypnosis do not stack with temp HP gained through any other source.
DC 60: Damage Reduction: On a successful Autohypnosis check, you gain DR 2/- that lasts for 12 hours. You cannot check for DR more than once per day.
Damage reduction gained through Autohypnosis does not stack with damage reduction gained through any other source.

Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm)
DC 20: 1-2 inches wide surface
DC 30: Up to 1 inch wide surface
DC 45: Liquid / fragile brance / other surface that couldn’t support your weight.
DC 60: Cloud

Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm)
DC +30: Instill Suggestion in Target: This is identical to the effect of the suggestion spell, except that it is nonmagical and lasts for only 10 minutes.
It can be sensed as if it were an enchantment effect (Sense Motive DC 25).
DC 45: Display False Alignment: You can fool alignment-sensing effects by displaying a false alignment of your choice.
Once set, a false alignment remains as long as you remain conscious and awake.
Setting or changing a false alignment requires a full-round action.
DC 55: Disguise Surface Thoughts: You can fool spells such as detect thoughts (or similar effects) by displaying false surface thoughts.
While you can’t completely mask the presence of you thoughts, you can change your apparent Int-score (and thus your apparent mental strength) by as much as 10 points and can place any thought in your “surface thoughts” to be read by such spells or effects.
If a character attempts to use Sense Motive to detect your surface thoughts (see the Sense Motive skill description), this becomes an opposed check.

Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm)
DC 30 + 2*SL: Cast spell with somatic component while grappled
DC 35 + 2*SL: Cast spell with material component while grappled
DC 40 + 2*SL: Cast spell with somatic and material component while grappled

Disguise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm)
DC +20: Change height and/or weight 11% to 25%
DC +35: Change height and/or weight 26% to 50%

Gather Information (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/gatherInformation.htm)
DC +20: Avoid Suspicion: By accepting a Gather Information DC increase of +20, you can avoid any suspicions that might otherwise be aroused by someone pursuing sensitive information.

Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm)
DC 30: Quicken Recovery:You can allow a character to regain HP in a single hour as if you had provided long-term care for a full day (2 or 3 hit points per level, based on activity).
You can quicken the recovery of up to six patients at a time. No character’s recovery can be quickened more than once per day.
DC 50: Perfect Recovery:You can allow a character to regain HP in a single hour as if he or she had provided long-term care for a full week (2 or 3 hit points per level per day, based on activity).
You can use perfect recovery on up to six patients at a time. No character’s recovery can be perfected more than once per day, nor can perfect recovery and quicken recovery both be used on the same patient in the same day (even by different healers).

Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm)
DC +20: Hide Another: You can hide another adjacent creature whose size is no more than one category larger than your own.
Modifiers to the check for the size of the creature still apply, as do all other penalties, including those for moving faster than half speed.
Likewise, you can only hide another creature when it is not under direct observation by a third party.
The creature you hide remains hidden until it is spotted or it takes some other action that breaks its concealment, as normal.

Listen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm)
DC 40: Defeat Illusion: You can automatically detect any illusion with an auditory component for what it truly is.
No Will save is required, and you don’t have to interact with the illusion (but he or she must be able to hear its auditory component).
Special: You can use Listen to notice the presence of an invisible creature (generally opposed by a Move Silently check).
You can pinpoint the location of the invisible creature, though it still maintains total concealment from you (50% miss chance).

Ride (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm)
DC 35: Stand on Mount: This allows you to stand on your mount’s back even during movement or combat.
You take no penalties to actions while doing so.
DC 40: Unconscious Control: As a free action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, or heavy horse while in combat.
If you fail, you control the mount as a move action. You don’t need to roll for warhorses or warponies.
DC 45: Attack from Cover: You can react instantly to drop down and hang alongside your mount, using it as cover.
You can attack and cast spells while using your mount as cover without penalty. If you fail, you don’t get the cover benefit.

Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm)
DC 35: Get along in the wild while moving at full speed: You can provide food and water for one other person for every 2 points by which the check result exceeds 35.
DC 40: Automatically succeed on all Fort saves against severe weather: You can extend this benefit to one other character for every 2 points by which the check result exceeds 40.
DC 40: Ignore overland movement penalties of terrain: You and your mount can move at full overland speed regardless of terrain. You can extend this benefit to one other character for every 5 points by which the check result exceeds 40.
DC 55: Identify race/kind: Identify race/kind of creature(s) by tracks (requires Track feat).

Sense Motive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/senseMotive.htm)
DC 35: Discern Partial Alignment: This use of the skill lets you discern one alignment component of a target within 30’.
When making the check, you state whether you’re trying to discern the law-chaos or good-evil component.
You can’t retry the check, and you can’t use this to discern more than one component of the alignment (but see below).
DC 40: Discern Full Alignment: This use of the skill lets you determine both alignment components of a target within 30’.
You can’t retry the check.
DC 50: Detect Surface Thoughts: This lets you read the surface thoughts of a single target (as the 3rd-round effect of detect thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectThoughts.htm)) within 30’.
There is no saving throw to resist this effect, though the target can use Bluff to disguise his or her surface thoughts (see the Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) skill description), in which case this becomes an opposed check.

Sleight Of Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm)
DC +20: Disown Weapon: You can lift a sheathed weapon from another creature and hide it on your person.
- A small or one-handed weapon can be taken if the weapon is no more than one size category larger than your own size.
- A two-handed weapon can be taken if the weapon is no more than your own size.
- A pole-weapon can be taken if the weapon is no more than one size category smaller than your own size.
DC 50: Hide a willing creature or object: Make an adjacent, willing creature or object of your size or smaller “disappear” while in plain view. In fact, the willing creature or object is displaced up to 10’ away.
Make a separate Hide check to determine how well the “disappeared” creature or object is hidden.

Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm)
DC 40+CL: Identify Basic Property of Magic Item: This use of the skill requires one round of inspection, and functions exactly as if you had cast an identify spell on the item. You can’t attempt this on the same item more than once.
DC 50+CL: Identify All Properties of Magic Item: This requires one minute of inspection, and reveals all properties of a single magic item (including command words and charges remaining). You can’t attempt this on the same item more than once. If an item has different CLs for different properties, use the highest CL.
DC 50: Quick Identificationof alchemical substances and potions: You can identify a substance or potion in the field as a full-round action, without an alchemical lab or any cost. You can’t retry this check (or take 20); if you fail, you must identify the substance in an alchemical lab, as normal.

Spot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm)
DC 20: Notice presence of active invisible creature
DC 30: Notice presence of unmoving, living invisible creature
DC 40: Notice presence of inanimate invisible object / unmoving nonliving creature
DC 45: Sense the presence of any active magical effects in the area being searched. You can’t determine the number, strength, or type of the effects.
DC 55: Defeat illusion

Swim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm)
DC 40: Swim up Waterfall: This use of the skill allows you to swim an angled or vertical surface, as long as you remain completely or mostly immersed in water.
Other examples might include swimming up a whirlpool or an incredibly large wave.
DC +20: Speed Swimming: You can swim at your speed as a move action, or double his or her speed as a full-round action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions).

Tumble (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm)
DC 30: Reduce falling damage by 20’
DC 35: Free stand: You can stand up from prone as a free action (instead of a move action). You don’t provoke AoOs.
DC 40: Reduce falling damage by 30’
DC 45: Climb vertical surface: You can climb up to 20’ (as part of normal movement) by jumping and bouncing off walls, trees, or similar vertical surfaces.
You must have at least two vertical surfaces to bounce off, and the two must be within your jump distance from a standstill.
DC 50: Reduce falling damage by 50’
DC 70: Ignore falling damage

Use Rope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useRope.htm)
DC 50: Quick splicing: You can splice two ropes together as a move action.
DC 60: Tie unique knot: You can tie a knot that only you know how to untie. This doesn’t affect any Escape Artist checks made to escape these bindings.
DC 80: Animate held rope: You can command any rope you hold as if animate rope was cast upon it.
Each command requires a separate Use Rope check. Because the effect isn’t magical, it can’t be dispelled.


Feats drawn from D20SRD Epic Feats page (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm):

Bane Of Enemies
Requirements: Signature Enemy, Knowledge (arcana) 8, Spot 12
Benefit: Any weapon you wield against one of your signature enemies is treated as a bane weapon for that creature type (thus, its enhancement bonus is increased by +2 and it deals +2d6 points of damage).

Blinding Speed
Requirement: Dex 23
Benefit: You can act as if hasted for 1 round per level each day. The duration of the effect need not be consecutive rounds.
Activating this power is a free action.

Bonus Domain
Requirement: Priest level 10
Benefit: Choose an additional domain from your deity’s domain list. You now have access to that domain’s spells and granted powers.
You can gain this feat multiple times – once per 10 Priest levels.

Death Of Enemies
Requirements: Bane of Enemies, Knowledge (arcana) 12, Spot 18
Benefit: Your precision-based damage vs. a signature enemy is doubled. Oppenents that are typically not susceptible to precision damage still suffer precision damage once.

Efficient Item Creation
Requirements: Knowledge (arcana/religion/nature) 24 ranks, Spellcraft 24 ranks, Master Artisan.
Benefit: When crafting items as a Master Artisan, you enchant them at a rate of one day per 10,000 gp of the enhancement’s market price.

Epic Reputation
Requirement: Cha 23
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform checks.
Extended Life Span
Requirement: Con 23
Benefit: Add one-half the maximum result of your race’s maximum age modifier to your normal middle age, old, and venerable age categories. Calculate your maximum age using the new venerable number. This feat can’t lower your current age category.
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Group Inspiration
Requirement: Perform 20, Bardic Music class feature.
Benefit: The number of allies you can affect with your inspire competence or inspire greatness bardic music ability doubles.
When inspiring competence in multiple allies, you can choose different skills to inspire for different allies.
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Improved Spell Resistance
Requirement: Must have SR from a feat, class feature, or other permanent effect.
Benefit: Your SR increases by +2.
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Improved Stunning Fist
Requirement: Dex 19, Wis 19, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist.
Benefit: Add +2 to the DC of your stunning attack.
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Inspire Excellence
Requirement: Perform 24, Inspire Heroics.
Benefit: You can use song or poetics to grant a bonus to one ability score to your allies.
To be affected, an ally must hear you sing for 1 full round.
The effect lasts as long as you sing and for 5 rounds after you stop singing (or 5 rounds after the ally can no longer hear you).
Each ally to be inspired gains a +4 competence bonus to the same ability score, which you must choose before you begin inspiring.
Inspire excellence is a (Su) mind-affecting ability. Using the feat counts as one uses of song or poetics.
This feat is treated as a bardic music inspiration ability for purposes of feats that affect such abilities.
Special: If you also havr Group Inspiration, you my assign a different ability scor boost to each ally.

Instant Reload
Requirements: Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Close Combat Shot, Sleight of Hand 7.
Benefit: You may fire a crossbow at your full normal attack rate. Reloading the crossbow does not provoke AoOs.

Legendary Tracker
Requirements: Wis 23, Track, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, Search 24.
Benefit: You can track creatures across water, under-water, or through the air.
This adds the surfaces of water, underwater, and air to the list of surfaces found under the Track feat as follows:
- Water: DC 50
- Underwater: DC 60
- Air: DC 70

Legendary Wrestler
Requirements: Str 21, Dex 21, Improved Grapple, Escape Artist 15.
Benefit: You gain a +10 bonus on all grapple checks.

Magical Beast Cohort
Requirements: Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, wild shape 6/day.
Benefit: The following magical beasts are added to the lists of wild cohorts from which you can select.

1st Level (No Adjustment)

Stirge (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/stirge.htm)
Darkmantle (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/darkmantle.htm)
4th Level (-3)

Hippogriff (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hippogriff.htm)
Shocker lizard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shockerLizard.htm)
7th Level (-6)
Cockatrice (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cockatrice.htm)
Ankheg (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ankheg.htm)
Griffon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/griffon.htm)
Owlbear (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owlbear.htm)
Sea cat (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/seaCat.htm)*
10th Level (-9)

Basilisk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/basilisk.htm)
Digester (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/digester.htm)
Girallon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/girallon.htm)
Spider eater (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/spiderEater.htm)
13th Level (-12)

Bulette (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bulette.htm)
Chimera (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/chimera.htm)
Remorhaz (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/remorhaz.htm)
16th Level (-15)

Gorgon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gorgon.htm)
Gray render (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm)
Special: Creatures marked with an asterisk are available only in an aquatic environment.

Permanent Emanation
Requirements: Spellcraft 25 ranks, ability to cast the spell to be made permanent.
Benefit: Designate any one of your spells whose area is a Spread effect centered on you. This spell’s effect is permanent (though you can dismiss or restart it as a free action). Effects that would normally dispel this spell instead suppress it for 1d4 rounds.
You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, select a different spell to become permanent.

Proactive Search:
Requirements: Search 13, Spot 8
Benefit: Whan you pass within 5’ of a trap or any item of interest, you are entitled to a Search check to notice it as if you were actively looking for it.

Ranged Inspiration
Requirements: Bardic music class feature, Perform 25
Benefit: Double the range of any bardic music ability that has a range.
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Spell Opportunity
Requirements: Dex 21, Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Spellcraft 15
Benefit: Whenever you are allowed an AoO, you may cast (and attack with) a touch spell as your AoO.
You may not hold the spell in case of a miss.

Thundering Rage
Requirements: Str 25, Tireless Rage
Benefit: Any weapon you wield while in a rage is treated as a thundering weapon.
The DC of the Fortitude save to resist deafness is equal to 10 + ˝ your level.
This ability does not stack with similar abilities.

Uncanny Accuracy
Requirements: Dex 21, base attack bonus +11, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Spot 20 ranks.
Benefit: Your ranged attacks ignore the miss chance granted to targets by total concealment (50% miss chance).

VladtheLad
2020-04-10, 12:53 AM
Hello there!

So some extra questions/thoughts on your homebrew.

1) "Epic-Level Spellcasting:
Spellcasters that have gained their 21st class level gain a new spell level (regardless of the level that had granted them their highest pre-epic spell level).
Beyond level 21, access to new spell levels is gained at the normal rate as it did pre-epic:"
What's the strain cost for spells higher than level 9? And does the strain cost change as the caster goes into epic levels?
I asume the new spell level for full caster (wizard etc) is 10th at 21, 11th at 23, 12th at 25 etc...

2) Your critical replacement system requires calculating by how much you beat an opponents ac at every attack. Do you worry this will be too time consuming?

3) Is there any way to get back the ability points loss from being raised from the dead?

4) What do you think about changing all spell dc's to 10+1/2 caster level derived from class leels+modifier(charisma in your houserules). It does make casters stronger, but design wise it's kinda weird the lower level spells have lower dc's. This punishes low level spells that use dc's despite them being essentialy weaker than higher level ones.
Normally I wouldn't advice this kind of rules change, but in the context of your houserules I think it can work.
You can also make a similar rule for magic items. For example magic swords and armor could use 10+1/2 bab+ spell level. Wondrous items 10+spell level+ charisma modifier or sth. I big problem IMO with magic items that have saves or sth effects is that they don't scale.

5) What stuff do consider allowable outside of core 3.5? Obviously you have classes/prestige classes covered. Feats are also pretty comprehensive, but what about spells?

nonsi
2020-04-10, 08:02 AM
1) "Epic-Level Spellcasting:
Spellcasters that have gained their 21st class level gain a new spell level (regardless of the level that had granted them their highest pre-epic spell level).
Beyond level 21, access to new spell levels is gained at the normal rate as it did pre-epic:"
I assume the new spell level for full caster (wizard etc) is 10th at 21, 11th at 23, 12th at 25 etc...


Correct.





What's the strain cost for spells higher than level 9? And does the strain cost change as the caster goes into epic levels?


The answer here is: Follow the pattern of your chosen spell-pool rules.
The example below is for full casters, but the trail of thought is the same for all spellcasting classes:
Strain & Tolerance:
- Spell Levels 1, 2, 3 start with a cost of 7
- Spell Levels 4, 5, 6 start with a cost of 8
- Spell Levels 7, 8, 9 start with a cost of 9
(notice that for each even class-level gained in the class, the strain toll decreases by 1 for each SL)
- This will make SLs 10, 11, 12 start with a cost of 10. Then, SLs 13, 14, 15 start with a cost of 11 . . . and so on.
Spell Points:
- Just continue with a +2 incline: SLs 10, 11, 12 . . . cost 21, 23, 25 . . .





2) Your critical replacement system requires calculating by how much you beat an opponents ac at every attack. Do you worry this will be too time consuming?


At first glance it would seem so, but . . .
In my experience, one of the most costly aspects of the game is dice rolling.
OTOH, All crit-substitution calculations are done by one player and one player alone: the GM, with no intervention whatsoever from the other players. After all, only the GM knows the AC and attack rolls of the party's opponents.
After about 2 game sessions it should become second nature.
In practice, this should save huge amounts of your game time.





3) Is there any way to get back the ability points loss from being raised from the dead?


The answer here is: Yes and No.
You can recover them in 2 ways:
1. Gain levels
2. Buy them with feats (post #5, first spoiler)
You cannot undo the loss. Dying should hurt in some permanent way. Otherwise it removes a lot of the suspense.





4) What do you think about changing all spell dc's to 10+1/2 caster level derived from class leels+modifier(charisma in your houserules). It does make casters stronger, but design wise it's kinda weird the lower level spells have lower dc's. This punishes low level spells that use dc's despite them being essentialy weaker than higher level ones.


Currently I don’t see how this would improve things.
Both proposed spell-pool systems favor preserving your resources, so there’s already a significant incentive for preferring lower-level spells whenever possible.
I want to maintain a health dilemma between using low-level and high-level spells.





You can also make a similar rule for magic items. For example magic swords and armor could use 10+1/2 bab+ spell level. Wondrous items 10+spell level+ charisma modifier or sth. I big problem IMO with magic items that have saves or sth effects is that they don't scale.


In this system, every magical item is a wondrous item.
My approach to magical items is such that the only thing that dictates prices and functionality are the spells themselves, not the shape or modus operandi of the item on the physical level.
I’m not sure what kind of scaling you refer to. A magic item is constructed for a certain purpose and usefulness. If it upholds its purpose then you probably made a good choice. If not, then better luck next time.





5) What stuff do consider allowable outside of core 3.5? Obviously you have classes/prestige classes covered. Feats are also pretty comprehensive, but what about spells?


All official 3.5e materials.
The overhaul codex takes all of them into account.
I’ve addressed whatever spells I know of that warrant attention. If you notice something I’ve missed, do share your thoughts.
Same goes for feats, skills and any other aspect.
In the aftermath, the majority of doing the hard work of getting into details was on me. It should come at no surprise that I might’ve missed something along the way.
Specifically regarding PrCs – that's the one aspect that made 3.5e absolutely impossible to balance, so it was particularly important for me to find a way to remove them. All credit goes to Vadskye (https://forums.giantitp.com/member.php?69721-Vadskye) for making it possible.

VladtheLad
2020-04-10, 11:59 AM
The answer here is: Follow the pattern of your chosen spell-pool rules.
The example below is for full casters, but the trail of thought is the same for all spellcasting classes:
Strain & Tolerance:
- Spell Levels 1, 2, 3 start with a cost of 7
- Spell Levels 4, 5, 6 start with a cost of 8
- Spell Levels 7, 8, 9 start with a cost of 9
(notice that for each even class-level gained in the class, the strain toll decreases by 1 for each SL)
- This will make SLs 10, 11, 12 start with a cost of 10. Then, SLs 13, 14, 15 start with a cost of 11 . . . and so on.
Spell Points:
- Just continue with a +2 incline: SLs 10, 11, 12 . . . cost 21, 23, 25 . . .


Huh... so there was a pattern, I honestly tried to see it but failed to do so and now it seems quite obvious.
You also didn't, directly at least, answer my question on wether the tolerance continues to be reduced. From what I can gather it does. So at level 22 4th level spells will have 0 strain?




At first glance it would seem so, but . . .
In my experience, one of the most costly aspects of the game is dice rolling.
OTOH, All crit-substitution calculations are done by one player and one player alone: the GM, with no intervention whatsoever from the other players. After all, only the GM knows the AC and attack rolls of the party's opponents.
After about 2 game sessions it should become second nature.
In practice, this should save huge amounts of your game time.


I suppose confirming criticals is also time consuming, though in my houserules, I made improved critical not double the crit range but simply make criticals automatically confirm.
I suppose only testing this will give me a clear answer on wether your way is better than the core rules way.



The answer here is: Yes and No.
You can recover them in 2 ways:
1. Gain levels
2. Buy them with feats (post #5, first spoiler)
You cannot undo the loss. Dying should hurt in some permanent way. Otherwise it removes a lot of the suspense.


Ouch!
Heh seems to me its simply No, but I can see why you do it.
Personally I think pathfinder guess too far in ignoring the concequences, but losing a level as in normal 3.5 is still pretty bad, unless you have true resurection I guess.
Personally I increase the material component of raise spells to a maximum of your level's wealth by level minus your (level's-1) wealth by level. So higher level pc's require more gold to raise.




Currently I donÂ’t see how this would improve things.
Both proposed spell-pool systems favor preserving your resources, so thereÂ’s already a significant incentive for preferring lower-level spells whenever possible.
I want to maintain a health dilemma between using low-level and high-level spells.


It balances things out between low level spells I think. Usually you are incentivized to avoid low level spells that require saves and prefer spells like buffs, utility and no save offensive spells.



In this system, every magical item is a wondrous item.
My approach to magical items is such that the only thing that dictates prices and functionality are the spells themselves, not the shape or modus operandi of the item on the physical level.


Ah, the differences between the magic items types was tangential, nothing to do with my main point.



IÂ’m not sure what kind of scaling you refer to. A magic item is constructed for a certain purpose and usefulness. If it upholds its purpose then you probably made a good choice. If not, then better luck next time.


I mean the scaling of its dc. Its clear in official 3,5 certain magic items would be much more usable if you their dc scaled a bit.
Ignore my suggestion for scaling spells dc. Lets say you make a whatever type of item that throws fireballs. All I am saying is that the fireball could use the users charisma modifier to add to its 13 dc and maybe even his caster level.




All official 3.5e materials.
The overhaul codex takes all of them into account.
IÂ’ve addressed whatever spells I know of that warrant attention. If you notice something IÂ’ve missed, do share your thoughts.
Same goes for feats, skills and any other aspect.
In the aftermath, the majority of doing the hard work of getting into details was on me. It should come at no surprise that I mightÂ’ve missed something along the way.
Specifically regarding PrCs – that's the one aspect that made 3.5e absolutely impossible to balance, so it was particularly important for me to find a way to remove them. All credit goes to Vadskye (https://forums.giantitp.com/member.php?69721-Vadskye) for making it possible.

I am certain that is impossible to know every single problematic spells from all the 3.5 source books.
I am talking more about main line books, basically spell compendium, phb II, and the complete series.

Regarding feats the ones you don't mention at all are generally allowed then?

Yeah your rules don't need prestige classes at all, and that's sth I like, though I do remember you had a paladin prestige class at some point, the last prestige to be removed from your houserules I think?

As another aside I guess I get a kind of old school dnd feel from your rules, especially the harder casting, heavy consequences for dying and a dedication to a consistent vision parts.

nonsi
2020-04-11, 01:39 AM
So at level 22 4th level spells will have 0 strain?


Yes






Ouch!
Heh seems to me its simply No, but I can see why you do it.
Personally I think pathfinder guess too far in ignoring the concequences, but losing a level as in normal 3.5 is still pretty bad, unless you have true resurection I guess.


That’s not how it works.
Under these rules, dying doesn’t cost you a level (nothing does actually). See XP “Payment” (last spoiler on post #5)






Usually you are incentivized to avoid low level spells that require saves and prefer spells like buffs, utility and no save offensive spells.


If you can make SoS spells do the job 30% of the times, then they’re worthwhile.
Statistically speaking, they do that. I once played a Beguiler focused on SoS spells and hiding his spellcasting ability and I totally dominated the game.





Lets say you make a whatever type of item that throws fireballs. All I am saying is that the fireball could use the users charisma modifier to add to its 13 dc and maybe even his caster level.


The Mage does have Spellpower to shift things in her favor, but I guess that’s more class-oriented than item-oriented.







I am certain that is impossible to know every single problematic spells from all the 3.5 source books.
I am talking more about main line books, basically spell compendium, phb II, and the complete series.


I don’t know all spells from all official source books, but until I know a spell is problematic, it is allowed as is.
It is a common consent that core has the most broken stuff, whereas in other sources you only get broken stuff if you read things RAW instead of RAI (which are easy to figure out).






Regarding feats the ones you don't mention at all are generally allowed then?


Yes. When problems are pointed out, I deal with them.





Yeah your rules don't need prestige classes at all, and that's sth I like, though I do remember you had a paladin prestige class at some point, the last prestige to be removed from your houserules I think?


The Paladin theme is covered by the Pries class. You can take the “Cleric” variant to build a full fledged Paladin. You don’t get full BAB, but what you do get more than compensates – and with a lot of extra.






As another aside I guess I get a kind of old school dnd feel from your rules, especially the harder casting, heavy consequences for dying and a dedication to a consistent vision parts.


The pattern consistency is an actual goal. It makes things easier to remember and to fill in the blanks w/o asking for expansion.

And as far as “oldschool” feel goes – it goes beyond that.
One of the goals of this project is to allow you to role any fantasy character you’ve ever seen in any story or on screen, and more.
- Raistlin Majere: Low-Con Tolerance-mage
- Verminaard (Dragons of Winter Night): Hexblade
- Elrik of Melnibone: Bladeweaver with Lifedrinker feat
- Leto Atreides ii: A high-level Wierding Channeler (I’ve left out the sand-worms symbiosis, because it’s more of a storyline thing)
- The shipwreck survivor from Star Trek TNG that transcended into a being of light: Radiant Soul
- Master Li Mu Bai: 9th level Monk with Whirling Steel feat
- Dr. jekyll & Mr. Hyde: Netherhost
etc.

VladtheLad
2020-04-11, 04:49 AM
ThatÂ’s not how it works.
Under these rules, dying doesn’t cost you a level (nothing does actually). See XP “Payment” (last spoiler on post #5)


I understood this I just talked about how it is in 3.5 and pathfinder.



If you can make SoS spells do the job 30% of the times, then theyÂ’re worthwhile.
Statistically speaking, they do that. I once played a Beguiler focused on SoS spells and hiding his spellcasting ability and I totally dominated the game.


Ok, heh I remember you mentioning your beguiler again in the past. Beguiler is such a deceptively (ha!) powerful class.




The Mage does have Spellpower to shift things in her favor, but I guess thatÂ’s more class-oriented than item-oriented.


No idea what that is, will check it out.





I donÂ’t know all spells from all official source books, but until I know a spell is problematic, it is allowed as is.
It is a common consent that core has the most broken stuff, whereas in other sources you only get broken stuff if you read things RAW instead of RAI (which are easy to figure out).

Yes. When problems are pointed out, I deal with them.



Hmmm I had a list of out of core problematic spells, I used to ban them in my games.
I will check the out of core spells and pm if I find anything that could become too nasty.




The Paladin theme is covered by the Pries class. You can take the “Cleric” variant to build a full fledged Paladin. You don’t get full BAB, but what you do get more than compensates – and with a lot of extra.


I was 100% sure you had an alternate build, I just mentioned it because I remember it as the last prestige class in your houserules.




The pattern consistency is an actual goal. It makes things easier to remember and to fill in the blanks w/o asking for expansion.

And as far as “oldschool” feel goes – it goes beyond that.
One of the goals of this project is to allow you to role any fantasy character youÂ’ve ever seen in any story or on screen, and more.
- Raistlin Majere: Low-Con Tolerance-mage
- Verminaard (Dragons of Winter Night): Hexblade
- Elrik of Melnibone: Bladeweaver with Lifedrinker feat
- Leto Atreides ii: A high-level Wierding Channeler (IÂ’ve left out the sand-worms symbiosis, because itÂ’s more of a storyline thing)
- The shipwreck survivor from Star Trek TNG that transcended into a being of light: Radiant Soul
- Master Li Mu Bai: 9th level Monk with Whirling Steel feat
- Dr. jekyll & Mr. Hyde: Netherhost
etc.

Interesting. I especially like the mirror mage, since it reminds me of certain sidereal martial art from exalted rpg(which was cool though a bit too much).

nonsi
2020-04-11, 09:17 AM
Hmmm I had a list of out of core problematic spells, I used to ban them in my games.
I will check the out of core spells and pm if I find anything that could become too nasty.


I actually prefer to fix things and make them viable over nixing them, but I do realize that sometimes things are beyond repair.
Bring it on and we’ll check them out :smallsmile:





I was 100% sure you had an alternate build, I just mentioned it because I remember it as the last prestige class in your houserules.


Then you remember more than I do :smallbiggrin:





Interesting. I especially like the mirror mage, since it reminds me of certain sidereal martial art from exalted rpg(which was cool though a bit too much).


Yes, Mirror Dancer is one of my favorite creations. Definitely one of my bigger challenges. Wish I had a character to match it with (never tried Exalted).

nonsi
2020-04-15, 09:17 PM
.
Update:
Full Shifter adaptation (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=19620939&postcount=38) is now part of the codex. The one race with inherent variations and built-in evolution mechanics.

VladtheLad
2020-04-18, 02:41 PM
More Questions/Thoughts!

-Whats “Once a class skill always a class skill” ? As an aside, I would advice to a least rule that cross class skills don't cost double the ranks to raise. That said I am not a very big fun of removing cross class skills altogether as they did in pathfinder.

-Is there a difference between creating a magic item and buying a magic item?
Clarification:
“- All Save-or-Lose spells: spells that would directly impose (by definition of the effect, not situation/tactic related) a status on a target that limits the actions they can take:
• Dead
• Dying
• Paralyzed
• Petrified
• Unconscious
(basically anything that would render the target helpless or worse) "
What is it any spell that limit your actions? Or spells that make you worse than helpless?

-Does introspective the feat count as a skill feat or are its bonuses an exception to the skill feats?
“Skill-Feats
The two associated skills are always considered class skills, and you gain a bonus on them equal to 2 + 1/4 char-level."

-Considering the lower wealth by level and lack of Book of Boccob, can scribe costs become too punishing for mages? Do you see a similar item existing?
I saw the archmage feat claiming that runes are more cost effective. So maybe I need to check these first.

-How do mage armor and shield work? Do they add shield and armor bonuses or deflection bonuses? What about different type of ac bonuses(insight etc) from spells, are they always deflection bonuses?

- Some spells I consider possibly problematic:
Wraithstrike,
Giant size+enlarged web weave.

-Xp awards, pathfinder balances them at 20 encounters but in 3.5 they were 16 encounters unless I am mistaken? Maybe you should award more xp if you want to remain within 3.5 benchmarks.

-At Level 17, you will have around 33 strain, you can cast 2 level 9, 1 level 8, 1 level 7 spell. If you have fortitude +12+6 con+3 saves=+22. Even 4th level have a risk of failing and being lost.
The maximum you can reach in a day is 16*3=48 more strain through rests for 2 more 8th level spells 16, 2 more 7th level 14 , 4 more 6th level spells, and a 5th level spell.
This is a total of 2 level 9th, 3 level 8th , 3 level 7th, 4 level 6th and a 1 level 5th spell. If he does no spell casting the rest 14 hours also gets 14 more strain.
This actually seems a bit on low side to me, though since you have infinite 2nd level spells things probably balance out.
If you HAD to reduce strain costs or increase strain how would you go about it?

nonsi
2020-04-19, 02:05 AM
-Whats “Once a class skill always a class skill” ?


“Once a class skill always a class skill” is exactly that: If you ever have it as class-skill, it counts as class-skill regardless of future classes you take levels in.

Re-worded.





As an aside, I would advice to a least rule that cross class skills don't cost double the ranks to raise. That said I am not a very big fun of removing cross class skills altogether as they did in pathfinder.


On the realistic side, some people need to invest a lot more time to lern certain skills, and regardless of their efforts they never become good at them as others to whome they come naturally. So far I haven’t encountered a model to illustrate that better than the [double-coust half-value-cap] duality.
I’m open to suggestions if you have a better proposal.
I believe I’ve provided plenty of means to circumvent that drawback (via races, classes and feats).





-Is there a difference between creating a magic item and buying a magic item?
Clarification:
“- All Save-or-Lose spells: spells that would directly impose (by definition of the effect, not situation/tactic related) a status on a target that limits the actions they can take:
• Dead
• Dying
• Paralyzed
• Petrified
• Unconscious
(basically anything that would render the target helpless or worse) "
What is it any spell that limit your actions? Or spells that make you worse than helpless?


Nice catch.
“a status on a target that limits the actions they can take” is a leftover.
I just changed it to “a status on a target that makes it unable to take actions”





-Does introspective the feat count as a skill feat or are its bonuses an exception to the skill feats?
“Skill-Feats
The two associated skills are always considered class skills, and you gain a bonus on them equal to 2 + 1/4 char-level."


Again nice catch.
Fixed the description of Introspective.





-Considering the lower wealth by level and lack of Book of Boccob, can scribe costs become too punishing for mages? Do you see a similar item existing?
I saw the archmage feat claiming that runes are more cost effective. So maybe I need to check these first.




The codex does not directly address WBL. It just states that characters are far less dependent upon WBL to be effective. It’s the Weirding Channeler class in specific that states a restriction of no more than 1/3 the WBL agreed-upon by the group. With everything that’s going on in the codex, I see no reason for WBL to be different than the officially proposed WBL.
Nothing’s to stop you from formulating your own rules regarding high-quality books with thinner sheets of paper. This project has already exhausted its posting space and this issue doesn’t seem important enough to me to burden the readers, so I’ll leave it to you to figure it out according to your personal common sense. If it’s solid, I’ll reference it.






-How do mage armor and shield work? Do they add shield and armor bonuses or deflection bonuses?


I’d say armor bonus and shield bonus respectively.





What about different type of ac bonuses(insight etc) from spells, are they always deflection bonuses?


My approach is that while magic can collect information for you, it can’t hone your skills in any way, thus I’m firmly against insight bonuses via magic.





- Some spells I consider possibly problematic:
Wraithstrike,
Giant size+enlarged web weave.


Wraithstrike is a single-round spell. How broken can it be when it comes at the expense of another spell?

Good call on Enlarge Webweave and personal spells gaining range: touch. Seems like a good call to make an exception here that such spells are limited to a single target.





-Xp awards, pathfinder balances them at 20 encounters but in 3.5 they were 16 encounters unless I am mistaken? Maybe you should award more xp if you want to remain within 3.5 benchmarks.


My groups always progressed on average after about 20 encounters and it felt reasonable. It’s their survival that was problematic.
The good news is that you never lose XP by any means.
You’re free to tweak the numbers to your heart’s content.
You can also make things more challenging on average, but that’d probably come at the expense of longer encounters, so no real gain there.





-At Level 17, you will have around 33 strain, you can cast 2 level 9, 1 level 8, 1 level 7 spell. If you have fortitude +12+6 con+3 saves=+22. Even 4th level have a risk of failing and being lost.
The maximum you can reach in a day is 16*3=48 more strain through rests for 2 more 8th level spells 16, 2 more 7th level 14 , 4 more 6th level spells, and a 5th level spell.
This is a total of 2 level 9th, 3 level 8th , 3 level 7th, 4 level 6th and a 1 level 5th spell. If he does no spell casting the rest 14 hours also gets 14 more strain.
This actually seems a bit on low side to me, though since you have infinite 2nd level spells things probably balance out.
If you HAD to reduce strain costs or increase strain how would you go about it?


We talked about encouraging using lower level spells. The above observation seems like a powerful incentive for that.
You also have overtaxing in case of emergency.

I wouldn’t recommend lowering the costs, because that might make things too easy. But you’re welcome to try and see where it puts things.
You could lower the starting costs and stretch the cost reductions, but that'd make it difficult for you to formulate a noticeable pattern.

You could adopt the level-associated increased recovery that’s proposed for the spell-points system. That might work decently.
Instead of spell-points you recover strain at the same rate.

From a practical point of view of easier game-management and faster game-flow, choosing the spell-points system would probably make things simpler.
It would also make things simpler if you’d want to play with the numbers to find your personal sweet spot.
The tradeoff would be losing the flavor of overtaxing and having certain spell levels cost nothing at high levels.

If you’re a fan of the Strain & Tolerance approach, adopting the proposed recovery of the spell-points system would probably be your best bet.

VladtheLad
2020-04-19, 05:18 AM
“Once a class skill always a class skill” is exactly that: If you ever have it as class-skill, it counts as class-skill regardless of future classes you take levels in.


Ok cool!




On the realistic side, some people need to invest a lot more time to lern certain skills, and regardless of their efforts they never become good at them as others to whome they come naturally. So far I haven’t encountered a model to illustrate that better than the [double-coust half-value-cap] duality.
I’m open to suggestions if you have a better proposal.
I believe I’ve provided plenty of means to circumvent that drawback (via races, classes and feats).



Ok understood.




Nice catch.
“a status on a target that limits the actions they can take” is a leftover.
I just changed it to “a status on a target that makes it unable to take actions”


Again nice catch.
Fixed the description of Introspective.



Both of these make sense.




The codex does not directly address WBL. It just states that characters are far less dependent upon WBL to be effective. It’s the Weirding Channeler class in specific that states a restriction of no more than 1/3 the WBL agreed-upon by the group. With everything that’s going on in the codex, I see no reason for WBL to be different than the officially proposed WBL.
Nothing’s to stop you from formulating your own rules regarding high-quality books with thinner sheets of paper. This project has already exhausted its posting space and this issue doesn’t seem important enough to me to burden the readers, so I’ll leave it to you to figure it out according to your personal common sense. If it’s solid, I’ll reference it.





I think you mentioned half the wealth by level. Though you also seemed ok with my suggestion to just get the random loot and just restrain reselling and buying stuff from a magic market.
Regarding magic markets what are your thoughts? My experience is that most players just don't care enough to spent the time to buy and sell, but obviously there are exceptions.




I’d say armor bonus and shield bonus respectively.


My approach is that while magic can collect information for you, it can’t hone your skills in any way, thus I’m firmly against insight bonuses via magic.


That's what I thought.You pretty much clarify that spells give deflection bonus. That's why I was wondering about mage armor and shield. What about dodge bonuses, haste can grant a dodge bonus?
If yes basically spells grant either an armor/shield/dodge or deflection bonus. Any "other" bonus becomes a deflection bonus. Thinking about it fluff wise you could turn insight bonuses into a dodge bonus.




Wraithstrike is a single-round spell. How broken can it be when it comes at the expense of another spell?

Good call on Enlarge Webweave and personal spells gaining range: touch. Seems like a good call to make an exception here that such spells are limited to a single target.


Considering wraithstrike. I am not sure, I haven't seen a 3.5 gish or allowed the spell for that matter for a long time. It is a swift action spell with a personal range. I guess I could see it being very good with enlarged web weave even if it affects only the fighter, then again tbh I am not certain.

Thanks!



My groups always progressed on average after about 20 encounters and it felt reasonable. It’s their survival that was problematic.
The good news is that you never lose XP by any means.
You’re free to tweak the numbers to your heart’s content.
You can also make things more challenging on average, but that’d probably come at the expense of longer encounters, so no real gain there.


Understood, I was just mentioning the 3.5 maths.




We talked about encouraging using lower level spells. The above observation seems like a powerful incentive for that.
You also have overtaxing in case of emergency.

I wouldn’t recommend lowering the costs, because that might make things too easy. But you’re welcome to try and see where it puts things.
You could lower the starting costs and stretch the cost reductions, but that'd make it difficult for you to formulate a noticeable pattern.

You could adopt the level-associated increased recovery that’s proposed for the spell-points system. That might work decently.
Instead of spell-points you recover strain at the same rate.

From a practical point of view of easier game-management and faster game-flow, choosing the spell-points system would probably make things simpler.
It would also make things simpler if you’d want to play with the numbers to find your personal sweet spot.
The tradeoff would be losing the flavor of overtaxing and having certain spell levels cost nothing at high levels.

If you’re a fan of the Strain & Tolerance approach, adopting the proposed recovery of the spell-points system would probably be your best bet.

Ok I will have to mull over this a bit and also check your spell points approach. I am also considering to simply increasing the strain given from levels from 1 to 2.

VladtheLad
2020-04-19, 05:58 AM
Also from your codex:
"Throughout D&D's different incarnations, one of the more tedious aspects was tracking how much XP each monster is worth.
In Pathfinder 2, they finally simplified things by:
Setting XP requirement for the next level to a fixed value of 1000.
Subtracting 1000XP once a level was obtained (without re-calculating whatever XP left).

While this direction is definitely an improvement, I find the Minor (10) — Moderate (30) — Major (80) division too rough and inaccurate, and a bit unfair."

Pathfinder 2e doesn't make this distinction for monsters you are referencing awards for accomplishments.
See here https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=575
There is a table for xp awards from monsters.

nonsi
2020-04-20, 05:50 PM
I think you mentioned half the wealth by level.


If so, then it’s an undesired leftover.





Regarding magic markets what are your thoughts? My experience is that most players just don't care enough to spent the time to buy and sell, but obviously there are exceptions.


Given that the vast majority of the population in any fantasy game world are non-adventurers and never encounter the dangers that adventurers do, then the rationale is that there’s no institutionalized network of magic shops.
Any item-gold exchanges shold be managed on a case-by-case basis (i.e. price haggling), where in most cases the potential buyed would probably not possess the funds to make the purchase.





That's what I thought.You pretty much clarify that spells give deflection bonus. That's why I was wondering about mage armor and shield. What about dodge bonuses, haste can grant a dodge bonus?
If yes basically spells grant either an armor/shield/dodge or deflection bonus. Any "other" bonus becomes a deflection bonus. Thinking about it fluff wise you could turn insight bonuses into a dodge bonus.


Ok, I see what you mean.

I went over PHB I & II and Spell Compendium. What I noticed is that most spells that grant insight bonuses are caster-only spells.
I can see the common sense in a spellcaster that wields magical energies to draw insight directly via magic.
OTOH, It strikes me as unreasonable that an effect (which in and on itself is a mindless phenomenon) would give any other recipient any insight.
Therefore it seems to me that the best reconciliation between common sense and limitation of power abuse would be to rule that spells that grant insight bonuses are ridgidly personal spells and no manipulation could ever extend their range or make them applicable for magical items.

Regarding Haste . . .
it seems to me that the best way to regard the AC bonus is as circumstance bonus (when hasted, you perceive the world around you to be moving a bit slower).
So yes, limiting magic-based AC modifiers to deflection only is probably impractical.
Therefore I suggest expanding the definition to deflection/armor/shield/circumstance bonuses – and you can’t stack any of them.





Ok I will have to mull over this a bit and also check your spell points approach. I am also considering to simply increasing the strain given from levels from 1 to 2.


Yes. Doubling the level-based tolerance could work nicely . . . or increased recovery . . . or both.
Let me know what you make of the numbers.




p.s. I’ll have to think about the XP issue and get back at you . . . hopefully no later than this coming weekend. What I can say is that I already have a game plan.

nonsi
2020-04-22, 04:22 AM
Pathfinder 2e doesn't make this distinction for monsters you are referencing awards for accomplishments.
See here https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=575
There is a table for xp awards from monsters.


Yes, that’s my bad.

When I went over PF2 roulebook, one of the first concepts that cought my eyes was the action breakdown of 3 action units per combat turn.
I also tried my luck with proposing a new approach to combat actions (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?593232-Multiple-Actions-and-Multiple-Attacks-(inspired-by-PF-II)), but no one showed any interest.
That certainly didn’t start things for me on a positive note.

I also noticed the critical success and critical failure approach.
I liked the idea a lot, but I got discouraged very quickly when I realized that it would be impossible to import the concept to 3e without rewriting the game from the ground up.
So instead of going over the book cover-to-cover, I just skimmed the document and pretty much tossed it aside.

Both factors kinda took the wind out of my sails as far as PF2 goes, so I didn’t go deep into the document and missed the distinction between gaining XP for accomplishments and gaining XP for defeating opponents.



Now, going over the page you shared, here’s what I came up with. Tell me what you think.


Encounter-CRs and XP Awards:

Throughout D&D's different incarnations, one of the more tedious aspects was tracking how much XP each monster is worth.
In Pathfinder 2, they finally simplified things (https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=572) by:

Setting XP requirement for the next level to a predetermined fixed value (800/1000/1200 suggested for Fast/Medium/Slow level progression).
Subtracting 1000 XP once a level was obtained (without re-calculating whatever XP left).

While I do find this solution a huge improvement, I think it can be further streamlined and simplified.
I’m working under the assumption that a level advancement should be achieved after roughly 20 level-appropriate encounters, which should amount to about 4 game sessions (i.e. 50 XP for a level-appropriate encounter).

The numbers below are adjusted for a Medium level-progression rate (1000 XP):



Encounter CR XP
================================================== ================================================== =======================
Party Level - 5 or less ZERO (even if there is a threat, you can't learn anything new from such trivial encounters)
Party Level - 4 10
Party Level - 3 20
Party Level - 2 30
Party Level - 1 40
Party Level 50
Party Level + 1 60
Party Level + 2 70
Party Level + 3 80
Party Level + 4 90
Party Level + 5 or more 100 (there's only so much you can learn/improve from a single encounter)




In the above table, a single CR [X] creature is a level-appropriate challenge for a party of 4 characters with an average level [X].

If all characters are of the same ECL, each receives the stated XP from the encounter.

For each character of higher/lower ECL than the average, simply shifts individual XP award in the opposite direction. Round fractions closest*
Example: In case of a party of four characters, three of 5th level and one of 6th, when they finish a CR 5 encounter, three of them gain 50 XP while the higher-level character gains only 40 XP.
* If the party's average level is exactly midway between two levels, then round the encounter’s XP awrards down. I.e. a party of two 5th level characters and two 6th level characters is a 6th level party.


Groups of Different Sizes:
Intuition would dictate that for groups of a different number of characters N, one should apply the following formula to encounter XP: [XP * 4 / N].
While this is a reasonable possibility, there's a better option. Read on.




Going from [Creature CR] to [Encounter CR]:

It’s an obvious observation that 2 CR [X] opponents are not CR [2X] in any way fashion or form.
So, instead of trying to figure out the contribution of each opponent to the encounter’s CR, a DM should simply assess the overall threat level of the encounter.
This should take into account the following factors and more:
- Surprises / Ambushes
- Advantageous / Disdvantageous terrain (being surrounded, undersea combat, flying opponents with range attacks etc).
- How well the opponents are equipped compared to the party in terms of gear, spells, minions etc.

The encounter’s in-practice CR should be evaluated after the encounter is over.
If players make bad choices during an encounter, this should not increase the DM’s decided-upon encounter CR. That one's on them.

At first glance, it seems as if this approach makes XP-Awards less accurate.
In practice, CR is no more than a rough assessment of one subject vs. a huge variety of party builds.
Therefore, the best assessment tool in practice is the DM’s familiarity with the party’s overall set of capabilities.
While this approach is not really applicable for designing PC/XBox games, it is the best tool where the human factor is present (i.e. the DM).

Notes:
1. When applying this approach of assessing [Encounter CR], one doesn’t need to make complicated calculations as proposed under “Groups of Different Sizes”, so this actually simplifies things.
2. It’s perfectly within reason to decide that an encounter is worth [level – 1.5] threat and grant 35 XP for completing it. Very easy challenges could award 3 XP and that’s fine as well. Same goes for above-level-appropriate encounters.



XP – not just for defeating monsters:

Hazards and Obstacles:
XP should be awarded for overcoming/avoiding non-monster threats.
A threat should be evaluated vs. 2 things:
1. The variety and potency of options at the characters’ disposal for dealing with the threat.
2. The DM’s assessment of how well the players handled the problem.
Examples:
- A typical trap could be regarded as a [level – 3] threat, granting 20 XP to those who found and disabled it.
- A trap room, which is probably a more significant threat, could be regarded as a [level – 1] threat, granting 40 XP to each party member.
- Solving a difficult puzzle/riddle that required some brainstorming could award 30 XP to the one who actually came up with the solution, as well as 10 XP to anyone else who had contributed to the solution.

Basically, the more surprising, unorthodox and out-of-the-box-thinking a solution to a threat is, the more XP it should award.

Because the gane is run by people and not software, I don’t suggest adopting PF2’s approach of compiling a list of threats and assigning supposedly-accurate numbers to them.
DM’s gut feeling could save huge amounts of game time in this case and should be no less accurate in assessing the actual value of a challenge.



Accomplishments:
XP awards should also be given to characters for accomplishing actual stated campaign goals, such as:
- Securing a major alliance
- Establishing an organization
- Causing an NPC to have a change of heart
The significance of such accomplishments determines the size of the XP award.
Determine whether the achievement was a Minor / Moderate / Major accomplishment.

Minor accomplishments include all sorts of significant, memorable, or surprising moments in the game.
A Minor Accomplishment should count as [level – 3] or [level – 4] encounter (10 to 20 XP per player)

A Moderate accomplishment typically represents a goal that takes most of a session to complete.
A Moderate Accomplishment should count as [level – 2] … [level appropriate] encounter (30 … 50 XP per player)

A Major accomplishment is usually the culmination of the characters’ efforts across multiple sessions.
A Major Accomplishment should count as [level + 1] and up (60 … 100 XP per player)

As a general guideline, in a given game session, you’ll typically give several minor awards, one or two moderate awards, and only one major award, if any.



Design Notes:

Granting XP for any and all game-contributing activities can have a significantly positive effect on the attitude of playes.
In a game where an overwhelming percentage of the XP is granted for combat, players always urge the DM to bring on more opponents, which would probably lead to a drastic decrease of the story’s significance.

The above approach should maintain a high level of interest in just about anything that happens in the game.

Individual awards of XP should definitely be encouraged. This should highly motivate the game effort and enthusiasm of all players.
Just take care not to push it to a point where less inventive/imaginative/resourceful players find themselves frustrated for being left behind.




XP Management Proposal:
It is highly advisable for DMs not to share how much XP is awarded per encounter and update XP on character sheets only in the end of game sessions. This eliminates XP-award arguments around the gaming table.
The exception to this suggestion is when a character is entitled a level advancement. It actually feels very rewarding to gain level advancement while playing and it raises players’ morale.

PoeticallyPsyco
2020-04-25, 04:30 PM
Any plans for an incarnum class?

VladtheLad
2020-04-26, 03:56 AM
Interesting, I will have to read this a bit to form an opinion.

Sorry for not responding earlier work, stuff and dming two games has me swamped at the moment.

nonsi
2020-04-26, 10:11 AM
Interesting, I will have to read this a bit to form an opinion.

Sorry for not responding earlier work, stuff and dming two games has me swamped at the moment.

Take your time. No pressure :smallsmile:

nonsi
2020-04-26, 10:47 AM
Any plans for an incarnum class?

TBH, I never really understood the pattern of thought behind Incarnum.
I also didn't implement Psionics, Shadow Casting, Truenaming or ToM Binding.
All of those are covered to the fullest with the already proposed spellcasters.
The goal in this approach was to make things easier to play and to make the game flow faster.
I'm quite convinced that if you don't insist on rigid mechanics, any story that you could tell using the official D&D materials, you could also tell with these rules . . . and many many more.

For example: If it's all about Chakra Binding, then these rules cover the aspect of binding magical powers to one's self in a far more flexible way.
See the Monk's 8th level feature "Tempered Body".
Also, any character can acquire almost any spell effect via "Bestow Spell-Like Ability" and "Spell-like to Supernatural Conversion" feats, provided one of the group's spellcasters is kind enough to take them.
And all classes are bursting with special abilities, which enables you to produce groups that can do anything you'd want them to be able to do.

PoeticallyPsyco
2020-04-26, 06:01 PM
I really like the mirror dancer class, but I've got a few questions.

How do you calculate the save for the Mirror Blast feat? I assume it's something like (10 + half class level + Cha modifier)?

The Mirror Blade table column references Cha, but the text only mentions Str to damage.

Last, the Conjure Mirror mentions that it can be summoned as a shield; does it provide a shield bonus to AC if you do so? And what are the rules/stats for sundering a conjured mirror or mirror blade?

D&D_Fan
2020-04-26, 06:47 PM
Are you going to call this 3.6, or 3.55?
Also, I've never played 3.5, but I think I should, Is 3.55 as I'm calling it ready to be played yet?
Also, you should consider 3.55 as a name.

Class Idea:
Anachronaut
From the future.
They can use future firearms and other future weaponary. They don't need to uses spells.
Proficient with: all ranged martial weapons. Light armor, one kind of tools plus some other stuff
Starting Gear: Plasteel Armor, 2 laser pistols or a laser rifle and 20 energy cells, a grenade or hyposray (a healing item), and one set of tools
Abilities: Teleportation, Time travel, Invisibility

I don't know what the sci fi rules for 3.55 are/will be, but it would be cool if you could add them.

nonsi
2020-04-27, 03:38 PM
How do you calculate the save for the Mirror Blast feat? I assume it's something like (10 + half class level + Cha modifier)?


That’s exactly it.
Will be fixed soon.





The Mirror Blade table column references Cha, but the text only mentions Str to damage.


Right again :smallsmile:





Last, the Conjure Mirror mentions that it can be summoned as a shield; does it provide a shield bonus to AC if you do so?


Good question.
I’m thinking of a regular small shield with a reflective surface.





And what are the rules/stats for sundering a conjured mirror or mirror blade?


I’m guessing you could regard it as a regular item, but I’m open to suggestions here.




And now that I’ve checked again, I noticed that Shatter Mirror doesn’t really state how to check if the mirro on the other side yields or breaks.
I could actually use some inspiration on this one.




Also, I just came up with two new feats:

Secondary Mirror Blade
Requirements: Mirror Dancer level 7, TWF
Benefit: When forming your Mirror Blade, you may create an offhand counterpart to it.
By spending one use of Mirror Sight, you may produce an offhand Mirror Blade that’s two steps weaker than your primary Mirror Blade ([1d4+STR ; 1d4+Cha] if you’re a 7th level mirror dancer)
By spending two uses of Mirror Sight, you may produce an offhand Mirror Blade that’s one step weaker ([1d6+STR ; 1d6+Cha] if you’re a 7th level mirror dancer).
By spending three uses, you may produce an offhand Mirror Blade of equal power.
Your Secondary Mirror Blade lasts for 1 minute.


Two Bladed Mirror Sword
Requirements: Mirror Dancer level 8, Proficiency with Two Bladed Sword, Double Weapon Fighting
Benefit: By spending one use of Mirror Sight, you may fashion your Mirror Blade as a Two Bladed Sword.
Both sides deal your regular Mirror Blade damage.
Your Two Bladed Mirror Blade lasts for 1 minute.

nonsi
2020-04-27, 03:53 PM
Are you going to call this 3.6, or 3.55?
Also, I've never played 3.5, but I think I should, Is 3.55 as I'm calling it ready to be played yet?
Also, you should consider 3.55 as a name.


As far as I’m concerned, you can call it whatever you fancy.
I’m not counting on making money out of this project, so it doesn’t really bother me how catchy the name is.





Class Idea:
. . .



Well, I have three issues with that proposal:
1. I wouldn’t want to associate class with gear. A regular warrior/rogue/monk should do perfectly fine with futuristic gear if you’d want to attack that angle.
2. I dare not confront the SciFi angle, because I know it will suck me in hard. I’m content with sticking to fantasy (but don’t let my reservation hold you back).
3. What about ammunition? (laser charges, grenades, etc.)? In a video game you usually have those laying on the floor wherever you go. If that was the case in an actual campaign, it would really damage the credibility of the story. If not, then you’re gonna find yourself stuck pretty quick.

nonsi
2020-04-27, 04:05 PM
Ok I will have to mull over this a bit and also check your spell points approach. I am also considering to simply increasing the strain given from levels from 1 to 2.


Yes. Doubling the level-based tolerance could work nicely . . . or increased recovery . . . or both.

Actually, after revisiting the notion, I believe it will be a poor decision to double the level-based tolerance buildup.
Reason: One of the primary objectives for me to redesign spellcasters was to profoundly increase their flexibility of choices, but at the same time discouraging going NOVA. Your suggestion will pretty quickly grant spellcasters access to 2 extra spells of their highest available SL. That's practically begging them to go NOVA.
If you leave the Tolerance pool as it is, but grant them faster recovery throughout their daytime activities, it will keep their NOVA potential the same, but will allow them to make better use of their Work Day.
I won't tell you by how much to increase the recovery rate. I'll just wait to see what you come up with and take it from there.

nonsi
2020-05-01, 06:38 PM
.
I’m happy to inform that the subject of deities and divine beings/characters is finally complete.
Everything on the subject is now here in this thread, with no need to turn to external sources.
All additions, modifications, omissions, tweaks and corrections are done.
All known inconsistencies corrected.

nonsi
2020-07-16, 11:32 PM
.

There's something I wish to clarify.

I was addressed several times in the not so distant past with requests regarding this project.
One request involved turning this entire project into a PDF.
Another was to make an adaptation of all classes to 3.5e and potentially other systems.
Another was to break down all ideas presented here into topics and reference them all in My Extended Signature.

While I personally don't have the time on my hands or the drive for such endeavors, I certainly have no objection and would actually be glad to contribute my thoughts if anyone wishes to give it a go.

I'd also like to reiterate that I grant full permission in advance for anyone who finds anything of interest in here to take and use whatever they fancy and insert
changes as they see fit.

Happy gaming everyone :smallcool: