Who would win?

[Falcos]

So, a friend and I are having a debate, and I wish to ask the Playground's arbitration.

The setup:

Sniper-themed Spellthief. One level of Targetteer Fighter to pick up Sniper. Repeating Great Crossbow (or Heavy, if the DM doesn't allow Repeating to be applied to Great). Telling Blow feat and as many extra-attack feats as possible to fuel Sniper. Hunts casters for a living.

Sorcerer. Vanilla. "Standard" build. Is unaware of the incoming bounty hunter.

Both level 20.

My argument is, that if the Spellthief was given time and resources to prepare for a fight between the two, he would emerge victorious.

His argument is, the Sorc wins based on selection of spells and paranoia.

Preparations that I argue the Spellthief would take include, but are not limited to: Sanctum'ing his house to prevent Scry and Dies from vengeful casters he hunts, stealing spells and spell-effects intelligently, not attacking until he has set up the area he is in to his advantage (cover overhead, for example), not attacking from anything other than the maximum range he could do so from (with aid of spells to allow accuracy at such a range), and having multiple Perma-AMF'd bolt-holes he can flee to in event of things going pear-shaped.

Also, paying other casters for things like Crafted Contingency and access to spells he ordinarily wouldn't have, because he hunts high-level casters. He considers those payments more of investments than costs.

The Sorc, on the other hand, is probably not expected to be shot from over a mile away with an arrow that steals a spell, then powers the Spellthief's Celerity, gets shot again, stolen again, etc etc.

I'm aware the Sorc can do Celerity too, but I honestly don't see a way a caught-by-surprise Sorc can beat a prepared Spellthief.

I'm aware the Sorc in a fair fight would win, as he would win given infinite information.

It's neither of those things.

What do you all think?

[SangoProduction]

I am not familiar with either at level 20...in fact, not many things at level 20, but typically being prepared will win the day....
However, if he let's the sorcerer get a turn, and they aren't required to fight. A simple time stop would allow the sorcerer to get away. So would most forms of teleportation. Then just cast some protection from divination, and boom. Easy escape. Distance is literally nothing to a 9th spell level caster. Then, the caster would be aware he's being hunted. Buy ring of arrow protection. He can't do that stuff anymore.
If he did have to fight, and wasn't one shotted, the antimagic field would be a pain in the ass, but there are conjuration spells that don't give 2 ****es about it. So, a simple distance of just 1 mile will be traversed with just a quickened discern location, and a teleport. Plop some spells and summons down, and he will have plenty of chances to win.
And, even if the hunter was protected from divination, the sorcerer could declare he's looking for the origin point of where this arrow was fired from. Then just teleport there, it would be bound to be close to where the hunter was. At best, mundane hiding would be his greatest defense at that point, as the sorcerer doesn't get many skills, or a high wisdom. But who doesn't get max spot whenever possible?

[Studoku]

What's the sorcerer's spell-list like? Is he allowed to have buffs already up when the encounter begins, since he has 60+ spells/day?

The Sorc, on the other hand, is probably not expected to be shot from over a mile away with an arrow that steals a spell, then powers the Spellthief's Celerity, gets shot again, stolen again, etc etc.
Getting shot from over a mile away isn't uncommon at level 20.

[Threadnaught]

If the Sorcerer is unaware and the Spellthief is able to prepare for the fight, Spellthief.

The Sorcerer may have the advantage in terms of overall power, but they'll be caught Flatfooted at the start of combat, be attacked from out of nowhere and unless they're specifically built to take out the Spellthief, the Spellthief would be able to nullify the majority of the Sorcerer's capabilities.

I know "..but the Tiers", but if the Spellthief is able to Sneak Attack the Sorcerer enough, they'll take away much of the Sorcerer's power, while improving their own versatility. Considering how the Spellthief has time to prepare, they should be able to Sneak Attack.

[Surpriser]

I still think that the sorcerer would win in most cases, unless the spellthief finds a way to kill him before they get a chance to act.

As soon as it is the sorcerer's turn, you get a Time Stop, Teleport, Shapechange, whatever... that either kills the spellthief, makes the sorcerer invulnerable to further attacks or at least gets the sorcerer away from the danger. There are too many spells that accomplish either of those that a spellthief could steal all of them.

And using Contigency (which can be assumed at this level), the sorcerer would simply have set up something to get him away if dropped and apply a heal afterwards. This is not optimization specific against the spellthief, but rather common sense at this level.

[Flickerdart]

Foresight. Sorcerer wins.

[Asrrin]

Foresight. Sorcerer wins.

Or shapechanged into a dire tortoise to always act in the surprise round. Or using the Contingency spell.

[Falcos]

It's good to know that opinions are split here too, and me and my friend weren't an island in argument.

Honestly, both of them have infinite-turn shenanigans that can be pulled off, but the Spellthief gets their turn first.

I should have been clearer. Win condition for either is either killing their target or making their target decide that running is a better idea than fighting, meaning that if the Sorc decides that his best bet is just to split and go to ground somewhere, Spellthief wins. And vice versa.

Sorc's spell list is what a "standard" level 20 sorc could be expected to have, and I understand that that's a wide wide list, but the concept here is hunting multiple sorcerers as a job, meaning that the Thief'll probably come up against most spells at various points. As for buffs, some buffs are more believable than others. Fly, believable. True Sight or Detect Magic, kind of. Specific things like being Polymorphed into a form for fighting? Not so much.

I have to say, I've never been shot at from a mile away in any game I've ever played. Maybe my DMs are just boring.

Yeah, part of the preparation thing that the Spellthief gets is picking the time, place, and circumstances of their conflict, within reason.

It's entirely possible that the Thief won't let the Sorc have a turn, though. The Thief can steal any spell of 4th or above and use them to power Celerity. Throw in an item of immunity to daze (I'm sure there's a way to do it) and the thief gets infinite turns.

If the Sorc Contingencies out at negative health and the spellthief is alive, that's a win for the thief.

Foresight, while wonderful fluff-wise, only really tells them things like "You're being shot at. Get away." I don't consider that to be amazing aid that swings the tide of this kind of battle over the spellthief's extensive preparations.

EDIT: Are you really telling me that all 20th sorcs go about all of their business as Dire Tortoises? How on earth do they shop? Get their familiars to say "Excuse me sir, I am the bird of the turtle down there, and he would like ten of your finest sides of beef. Please don't be alarmed."

[LoyalPaladin]

This is sort of like the age old "Bats vs Supes" argument right? With enough time and prep Batman can accomplish amazing things. But given half a second Superman would demolish the caped crusader. I think that would apply here as well.

[Rebel7284]

EDIT: Are you really telling me that all 20th sorcs go about all of their business as Dire Tortoises? How on earth do they shop? Get their familiars to say "Excuse me sir, I am the bird of the turtle down there, and he would like ten of your finest sides of beef. Please don't be alarmed."

Same way the real world's most powerful people go shopping... they have an underling do it.

There is also no item RAW that gives immunity to Daze. There is a dragonmark that does it and a 4th level paladin spell. Also quick recovery allows you to recover as a move action.

[Greenish]

The point of Foresight is that you're never surprised (so no surprise round) or flat-footed (so you can use immediate actions, and won't be vulnerable to SA).

Celerity is an immediate action, so unless you have a way to gain infinite immediate actions per round, you can't spam it for infinite standard actions.


What's the spellthief using to Sneak Attack targets with Heavy Fortification armour? I haven't dabbled into high level sneak attackers, so I'm a bit unfamiliar with their tricks.

[Eldariel]

Depends on the Sorcerer. A well-built Sorcerer can't be caught by surprise; it's fully possible for a Sorcerer to persist Foresight or Shapechange and even if they don't, those spells last 10 min/level at caster level of at least 20 (probably quite a bit more accounting for items) so at least 3 hours per casting and a level 20 Sorcerer is looking at 7-8 castings of Level 9 spell with just stats; easy enough to keep them up all day with just a Greater Rod of Extend Spell which costs paltry 25k gp (out of 760k) and 3 castings. Either way, even a Core Sorcerer has no excuse other than bad spell selection to be caught flat-footed even if he's not operating from a base of any kind and not using remote movement abilities to act. Contingency, Foresight and Shapechange should be enough to thwart any ambush a mundane attempts; Shapechange also includes options like traveling inside walls or whatever (of course, a level 20 Sorcerer probably prefers Teleportation; even trying this kind of an assassination just logistically without a lot of magic would be very, very difficult and luck-based).

Shapechange is an absolute must (Wizard or Sorcerer and given most abilities derive save DCs off Cha & it can replicate a ton of spells saving Sorc spell slots, Sorc gets even more out of it and Wizard) and if we're talking about a level of play where high level casters can die, so is Foresight. Not-dying is so much better than dying that it's worth devoting significant amounts of resources towards not-dying. Once Celerity comes into play, well, why would the Sorcerer ever be hit? He has no reason to be.


Remember, Shapechange means the Sorcerer can switch form once a turn as a free action. Thus, the opportunity cost of wearing a safe form all day is practically nil. He's probably Polymorph Any Objected his base form into something more servicable than a standard humanoid permanently too but still, Shapechange takes precedence most of the time. Note, there are no social issues with this PAO use since Shapechange means he can still appear in his normal form as desired; though more than likely he'd just use Disguise Self or other lesser spell for lesser mortals and truly powerful people could divine the Sorc's true form through True Seeing anyways so such parlor tricks are unnecessary.

You're accounting for low level spells but it's all about the high level spells here. From core, plan around:
- Shapechange
- Foresight
- Astral Projection
- (Time Stop/Disjunction) [not defensive, but probably available in some capacity]
- Polymorph Any Object
- Mind Blank
- Moment of Prescience
- Greater Teleport
- Contingency

Outside Core, add:
- Craft Contingent Spell (so 20 Contingencies, essentially)
- Celerity
- Additional Shapechange forms (most relevantly Chronotyryn for doubled actions throughout and Dire Tortoise for never being surprised)
- Anticipate Teleport (restricts using teleportation in the general vicinity of the caster)
- Hide Life

Minor stat buffs are probably present either way but ultimately, you can always reach bigger numbers; it's rather trivial to guesstimate their defenses. It's the strategic aspect of their power that makes casters so potent and it's the aspect you need to defeat. If things are being persisted, also remember Ironguard, Superior Invisibility & co. That becomes difficult since with persistent spells, even the numbers begin to be hard to defeat (I can easily imagine Touch AC and all saves of 100+), but if you wish to go for it, have at it.

[Flickerdart]

EDIT: Are you really telling me that all 20th sorcs go about all of their business as Dire Tortoises? How on earth do they shop? Get their familiars to say "Excuse me sir, I am the bird of the turtle down there, and he would like ten of your finest sides of beef. Please don't be alarmed."
Shapechange into the turtle, then Disguise Self back into a person. Use Hands of Man to manipulate objects. Alternatively, polymorph your familiar into a person and Alter Self into a different animal and pretend to be the familiar.

[Falcos]

Rules of Custom Magic Item for continual or on-use item of that Paladin spell.

Also, through a very interesting RAI, the DM ruled that Celerity could be spammed infinitely for the Sorc's actions. So, I ran with it.

Honestly, I know I had a way around it but I cannot remember it. Also, Heavy Fortification, RAW, doesn't prevent theft on sneaks via crits, just the damage from them.

Yeah, I guess part of what I'm asking here is "Optimize my mage-hunter!" There's a lot of holes here, but I'm trying to make a caster-killing bounty-hunter.

[Der_DWSage]

Well, if the Spellthief is a bounty hunter type, and this isn't hunting for a specific Sorcerer, the equation becomes a lot simpler. The Spellthief picks his targets appropriately, and works from there. Also, he absolutely needs something that gives him Mindblank or other protections against divination, because while a Sorcerer isn't as crazy-prepared as a Wizard, it's still an easy way to screw him over.

Really, this comes down to the competence level of the Spellthief in question. It's not out of the question for a level 20 character to acquire a Silver Sword or similar item that can cut the cord on an Astral Projection, removing one of the best and most common of high-level defenses available. Mindblank, Vecna-blooded, (That's the name of the template, right? I could be misremembering) and other such spells help keep Divinations from spying him. For high-profile, highly defended cases, I could see an item that throws Disjunction into the fray, stripping them of many of their high-level buffs. (Maybe getting a partner for those cases, since you really need to kill them within a round or two. I know that he wins if the Sorcerer flees, but there's little keeping the Sorcerer from hunting the Spellthief down later. Also finding a way to throw out Quickened Dimensional Anchors or Dimension Locks in general, to keep them from using their best methods of flight.)

But yeah, this is very much a Batman vs. Superman fight. The only difference being, it might not be Superman-the guy could be facing threats from Zatanna (Who is just a little too unpredictable to hunt, he could refuse the job) to Fadeaway Man. (A minor villain who can run away, stop him from fleeing and you're golden.) This becomes 20th level Calculus, with the shifting competence level of the Spellthief, the amount of money he can request for materials, how much time they have to prepare for the fight, how much of the information the Spellthief gets is accurate, and how dangerous the Sorcerer is.

[Flickerdart]

WIt's not out of the question for a level 20 character to acquire a Silver Sword or similar item that can cut the cord on an Astral Projection, removing one of the best and most common of high-level defenses available.
A silver sword removes the usefulness of Astral Projection not at all, merely adds a minor danger to its use. The power of gith swords to wreck astral travellers has been blown widely out of proportion because people just repeat what they hear instead of actually reading the books.

[Greenish]

Rules of Custom Magic Item for continual or on-use item of that Paladin spell.There are no rules for custom magic items. There are guidelines, but allowing those for PC consumption is just asking for the game to be wrecked, more often than not.


Also, through a very interesting RAI, the DM ruled that Celerity could be spammed infinitely for the Sorc's actions. So, I ran with it.It's not just RAI, it's also the RAW. Still, if you can turn spell slots into actions as many times a round as you want, well, that's probably in the sorcerer's favour, just for having more spell slots:

ST attacks.
Sorc uses Celerity to interrupt ST's attack.
ST uses Celerity to interrupt Sorc's interruption.
Sorc uses Celerity to interrupt ST's counter-interruption.
…

And so on, until either person runs out of spell slots. The spellthief can't steal spellslots without a successful attack, and can't make one as long as sorcerer can spam Celerity.


Honestly, I know I had a way around it but I cannot remember it. Also, Heavy Fortification, RAW, doesn't prevent theft on sneaks via crits, just the damage from them.Heavy Fortification has a 100% chance to negate Sneak Attack. Steal Spell requires a successful Sneak Attack.

[SangoProduction]

Right. Dimensional Anchor to stop teleportation...which would be annoying. What type of magic user actually walks around places. Well, Magic Carpet away!
Could expeditious retreat, time stop, for the extra turns, sprint at 4 to 5 times normal speed. lesser celerity for the additional move action each round, or infinite, if you allow it to do so. That's at minimum 2 rounds of free actions to make movements of of 60ft + 60ft*5 (360) so, 720 ft traversed before the time stop ended (essentially instantaneous movement), and that's assuming no other movement modifiers. So, unless you've got a divination lock on this sorcerer, there is absolutely 0 chance of you being able to get a second shot off, because you wouldn't find him again in the same combat. (Of course, I don't know of the spell thief, he might have something like that)
And when all is said and done, the sorcerer only used one spell slot above second level. And, once you've lost the sorcerer, you become as much the prey as he was, difference being he probably has some save or die bull crab.

Your best chance would be to fire an arrow that explodes into an anti-magic field...but I have cheesed my way out of more than one of those before, and there's no doubt the people of this forum know more way to do that than I do.
Your only chance would be to one shot your target, and not let them get spells off at all. No matter your distance, it will always essentially be a "fair fight" because they don't care about distance, for the large part.

[Eldariel]

Right. Dimensional Anchor to stop teleportation...which would be annoying.

Dimensional Anchor does nothing. It requires a failed save, allows SR and is a touch attack; used by either party, successfully DAing someone is far harder than just killing them (meditate on that for a second). Dimensional Lock does have some applications though, having no defenses applicable so if movement can be restricted, it can be a useful tool in either preparing a battlefield or in trapping a turtle (a hard-to-kill character with high defenses but meaningless offense). Anticipate Teleportation is largely a better preparatory spell though; and always kill rather than just Dimensional Lock if you can (enough damage to kill in a single hit should be relatively trivial for either a mage or a mundane). Prepare the point where the hostile arrives with a deathtrap of doom and watch the hostile explode (though of course, Dimensional Lock is a good backup in case they don't).

[Cruiser1]

Are you really telling me that all 20th sorcs go about all of their business as Dire Tortoises? How on earth do they shop? Get their familiars to say "Excuse me sir, I am the bird of the turtle down there, and he would like ten of your finest sides of beef. Please don't be alarmed."

Shapechange into the turtle, then Disguise Self back into a person. Use Hands of Man to manipulate objects. Alternatively, polymorph your familiar into a person and Alter Self into a different animal and pretend to be the familiar.
Better is to Shapechange into the Dire Tortoise, which gives you the Lightning Strike (Ex) ability. Then Polymorph into yourself. Standard Polymorph doesn't give you or remove (Su) or (Ex) abilities, so you inherit them from Shapechange, even though the form setting part of Shapechange has been completely replaced by Polymorph. Even better is to:


Step 1: Shapechange into a Dire Tortoise, to get the useful Lightning Strike (Ex) ability.
Step 2: Polymorph Any Object into a Sarrukh (SK), because Polymorph Any Object gives you the INT of the form you take, but doesn't give or replace (Su) or (Ex) abilities. You now have the INT 30 of a Sarrukh before buffs, and still have the Lightning Strike of a Dire Tortoise.
Step 3: Draconic Polymorph into something with great physical stats like a Titan, giving you STR 51, DEX 12, CON 41 before buffs. (Draconic) Polymorph doesn't doesn't give or replace (Su) or (Ex) abilities, or change INT. You now have the Lightning Strike of a Dire Tortoise, the INT of a Sarrukh, and the physical stats of a Titan.
Step 4: Alter Self into your original form. Alter Self doesn't give or replace (Su) or (Ex) abilities, and doesn't change any stats, so you end up with the Lightning Strike of a Dire Tortoise, the INT of a Sarrukh, the physical stats of a Titan, and the body of yourself. :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Alter Self into your original form.
The problem with this is that Polymorph Any Object changes your type, and Alter Self is type-restricted. So you cannot Alter Self into yourself because your type is still Outsider from the Titan, unless you started out as a tiefling or something.

[Greenish]

Step 2: Polymorph Any Object into a Sarrukh (SK), because Polymorph Any Object gives you the INT of the form you take, but doesn't give or replace (Su) or (Ex) abilities.I'm not sure I'd burn an 8th level spell to get a bonus on Knowledge skills and Spellcraft.

[Eldariel]

I'm not sure I'd burn an 8th level spell to get a bonus on Knowledge skills and Spellcraft.

Well, it is often permanent so there's not all that much reason not to.

[Asrrin]

Also, ignoring for the moment all of the ways a sorcerer can be immune to surprise attacks, it's surprisingly easy to become immune to Sneak Attacks, and thus render the Spellthief's main schtick useless. Uncanny Dodge, Undead/Construct immunities, magic items...the list goes on.

[ben-zayb]

Constructs and undeads are not subject to crits, and changing to either type is easy by level 20. It's also easy to be immune against ranged attacks, which is the worst aspect of archery builds.

[Curmudgeon]

The answer, always, is Chuck Norris.

[Greenish]

Wait, wait, wait. What, exactly, is the spellthief even trying to kill the sorcerer with?

Targeteer's Sniper plus Repeating Great Crossbow (which doesn't even exist) plus Telling Blow plus Manyshot adds up to one standard action attack for 2d8+(enhancement) damage, 12-20 threat range (with 5d6 SA damage on crit), delivered by medium BAB combatant with -6 to attack from Manyshot and up to -20 from range penalties (unless negated somehow).

Even if the sorcerer doesn't have Celerity and is vulnerable critical hits and the spellthief can spam Celerity as long as he has spell slots for it, it seems like a decent AC (not to mention miss chances) would be protection enough to survive to take your turn, more likely than not.

[Falcos]

Ignoring the whole cheese loop with forms, because I can't really speak to that... That's not standard, that's cheese.

Yeah, if it's a cheesy sorc, I lose.

Plenty of ways around immunity to crits, too. Truedeath crystal, off-hand, if it's undead type immunity.

The spellthief is trying to kill the sorcerer with lots and lots of arrows. I'm aware that Repeating Great isn't a thing, but the original friend I was arguing this with agreed that it was not an unreasonable concept, and therefore was something we would think about both existing and not existing.

There are a lot of spellthief spells that boost to-hit, and items of custom magic spell are explicitly permitted, so penalties to hit aren't such a terrible thing anymore.

There's also, I'm sure, a lot of ways which I am not thinking of to make the spellthief even more of a threat, since the thief could just hypothetically take smaller-time bounties until has enough money for magic item de jour.

There is also the fact that if the Sorc doesn't have Celerity (unlikely) and the Thief can keep critting, he can keep powering Celerity ad infinitum.

[Asrrin]

Ignoring the whole cheese loop with forms, because I can't really speak to that... That's not standard, that's cheese.

Yeah, if it's a cheesy sorc, I lose.

Plenty of ways around immunity to crits, too. Truedeath crystal, off-hand, if it's undead type immunity.

The spellthief is trying to kill the sorcerer with lots and lots of arrows. I'm aware that Repeating Great isn't a thing, but the original friend I was arguing this with agreed that it was not an unreasonable concept, and therefore was something we would think about both existing and not existing.

There are a lot of spellthief spells that boost to-hit, and items of custom magic spell are explicitly permitted, so penalties to hit aren't such a terrible thing anymore.

There's also, I'm sure, a lot of ways which I am not thinking of to make the spellthief even more of a threat, since the thief could just hypothetically take smaller-time bounties until has enough money for magic item de jour.

If it's trivial to make a monk unkillable, it's doubly so for a sorcerer. Something like Hide Life is instantaneous and makes the caster immune to death by HP loss. Hell, Sorcerers have access to Wings of Cover as a 2nd level spell.

Even if you could surprise a sorcerer, even if you caught them flat footed, even if you bypassed crit immunity, and even if you caused them massive damage in a single hit, you still can't kill a sufficiently paranoid sorcerer. And after all of those ifs (and that's a lot of ifs) the sorcerer gets to bring his nuke to bear. the only way to beat a full caster is to be one yourself.

[Falcos]

Then I guess the question here is "How many sorcs are inherently paranoid nutters?"

Also, I realized that I neglected to mention the fact that the Thief almost definitely has enchants on the weapon.

[Flickerdart]

Then I guess the question here is "How many sorcs are inherently paranoid nutters?"
Anyone who survives to level 20 is a paranoid nutter. Need I remind you that these guys have been fighting literal demons, angels, dragons, and worse for years?

Not to mention that it takes the sorcerer less time to put these spells up in the morning than it takes you to brush your teeth.

[Cruiser1]

The problem with this is that Polymorph Any Object changes your type, and Alter Self is type-restricted. So you cannot Alter Self into yourself because your type is still Outsider from the Titan, unless you started out as a tiefling or something.

Alter Self: You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
Your normal form or unbuffed creature type (Humanoid usually) is different from your current type (Outsider after Polymorph). Therefore you can always Alter Self into your original Humanoid form, even though your current creature type is Outsider (and will remain Outsider even after you take a form that looks humanoid, because Alter Self doesn't change your creature type).


I'm not sure I'd burn an 8th level spell to get a bonus on Knowledge skills and Spellcraft.
INT is less important for a Sorcerer, but for an INT class like Wizard in which INT affects Save DC's, bonus spells, and such, every last bit of INT is super important, and being able to start with INT 30 before buffs and gear is amazing. :smallcool:

[SangoProduction]

Ignoring the whole cheese loop with forms, because I can't really speak to that... That's not standard, that's cheese.

Yeah, if it's a cheesy sorc, I lose.

Yeah. It's quite cheesy.




Plenty of ways around immunity to crits, too. Truedeath crystal, off-hand, if it's undead type immunity.

Not much (if anything...I doubt anything) actually does anything against the most common way around immunity to crits...the only worth while armor enhancement. Fortification. Some could argue that brilliant energy passes through the armor, and thus, this magic...but then others come back and say, no it's a magic protection from critical strikes, and thus it doesn't pass through it.



The spellthief is trying to kill the sorcerer with lots and lots of arrows. I'm aware that Repeating Great isn't a thing, but the original friend I was arguing this with agreed that it was not an unreasonable concept, and therefore was something we would think about both existing and not existing.

As I mentioned, not going to work, unless you first nail down their spell casting, or kill them in one shot, because basically no matter what, they can either a) get out of range, b) move so fast you can't track them, or c) teleport. Not necessarily exclusively one.



There are a lot of spellthief spells that boost to-hit, and items of custom magic spell are explicitly permitted, so penalties to hit aren't such a terrible thing anymore.

I don't know of either of these, and can't comment on them sense they aren't specific examples, but I'll believe you.



There's also, I'm sure, a lot of ways which I am not thinking of to make the spellthief even more of a threat, since the thief could just hypothetically take smaller-time bounties until has enough money for magic item de jour.

If we are doing a fair comparison, you guys should have the same amount of gold. While you do your bounties, he does his adventures. No one's even been talking about magic items for the sorcerer outside of the dead standard enhanced robes. Which balances with the hunter's weapon.



There is also the fact that if the Sorc doesn't have Celerity (unlikely) and the Thief can keep critting, he can keep powering Celerity ad infinitum.
Celerity is really quite incredibly powerful as is, idk why you'd have this house rule to increase it further, but whatever works I guess. Of course, you are relying on something that is not the average for any sorcerer that's live long enough to be level 20.

[Greenish]

Ignoring the whole cheese loop with forms, because I can't really speak to that... That's not standard, that's cheese.Inarguably no more cheesy than custom magic items, and certainly less cheesy than infinite immediate actions.


Plenty of ways around immunity to crits, too. Truedeath crystal, off-hand, if it's undead type immunity.So how does the spellthief bypass bog-standard heavy fortification?


The spellthief is trying to kill the sorcerer with lots and lots of arrows.Your options with standard actions are either Manyshot for three arrows, or Manyshot for one arrow with the +2 threat range increase from Sniper.


There are a lot of spellthief spells that boost to-hit, and items of custom magic spell are explicitly permitted, so penalties to hit aren't such a terrible thing anymore.Items of custom magic spells? Then the sorcerer has an item that grants him immunity to hitpoint damage. Because why wouldn't you have that if you can. 4k for continuous Beastland Ferocity and 120k for continuous Delay Death (or just little under 4k for Scroll of Hide Life in place of the latter).

The problem with custom magic items is that they're absolutely nuts. If you're going to allow them, you need to set some limits. Is immunity to HP damage cheesy? I'd say so, but then I'd also say that having attack of +yes is rather cheesy.


There's also, I'm sure, a lot of ways which I am not thinking of to make the spellthief even more of a threat, since the thief could just hypothetically take smaller-time bounties until has enough money for magic item de jour.Saying "a lot of ways which I am not thinking of" is not an argument. There are almost certainly more ways for sorcerers to protect themselves that you aren't thinking of than there are ways for spellthieves to threaten sorcerers.

Also, you do want to obey the WBL guidelines, because if you decree those can be ignored in favour of the characters earning money for themselves, the sorcerer can make money faster than the spellthief.


There is also the fact that if the Sorc doesn't have Celerity (unlikely) and the Thief can keep critting, he can keep powering Celerity ad infinitum.If the thief can keep critting, which is a big if. Even if the spellthief hits on Nat 2 and the sorcerer doesn't have any miss chance granting effects (fat chance with custom magic items), the attacks have 70% chance not to threaten (we can assume auto-confirm, I should think).

[Edit]: Oh yeah, Wings of Cover. The spellthief will run out of 4th level slots before the sorcerer runs out of 2nd+ level slots.

[DEMON]

I think I might have missed something, but why is the Spellthief relying on crits + Telling Blow? If we have already assumed the Sorcerer is caught unaware and not immune to crits/SA, wouldn't Sniper's Shot suffice to ensure sneak attack on every hit?

And even with an insanely high to hit modifier, isn't there always a 5% chance we're going to miss with our attack and and our (non)infinite loop?

Paraphrasing a common idiom, I'd say you brought a repeating great crossbow to a Rocket Tag.

I would assume you'd have a similar chance of success just trying to sneak on him and slit his throat coup de grace him, or hit him with a Death Attack and hope for a poor roll (and no immunity to that effect) on his side.

[ben-zayb]

If custom magic items are on, what's stopping the Sorc from getting an item of Obscuring Snow + Snowsight? Or an item of Friendly Fire or Ray Deflection for that matter?

Additionally, there are augments to crit Undead and Constructs. And we even have spells to allow crit on plants. But what about Elementals? Thes are also not subject to crit.

Also, you might want to check your Spot modifier. 1 mile is a lot of Spot penalty. Might also want find a way getting around the 1hr/level version of Superior Invisibility, because true seeing only has a range of 120ft. (if you even happen to add the 75k+ to the expenses for the Mask of True Seeing).

[Forrestfire]

Items of custom magic spells? Then the sorcerer has an item that grants him immunity to hitpoint damage. Because why wouldn't you have that if you can. 4k for continuous Beastland Ferocity and 120k for continuous Delay Death (or just little under 4k for Scroll of Hide Life in place of the latter).

The problem with custom magic items is that they're absolutely nuts. If you're going to allow them, you need to set some limits. Is immunity to HP damage cheesy? I'd say so, but then I'd also say that having attack of +yes is rather cheesy.

You don't even need a custom magic item to get that. Take Persistent Spell and put some ranks in UMD, then get your hands on a Minor Schema of Concurrent Infusions (11,200gp) and two Minor Schemas of Metamagic Item (6,000gp each). Concurrent Infusions gets you three emulations of the Spell-Storing Item infusion, which can get you a pair of temporary 1-charge wands of Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity. Metamagic Item can persist them both, and you're now immune to HP damage for 24 hours.

Do the same for Ray Deflection (immunity to all ranged touch attacks, period), and stuff like Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, and other useful defenses. It's cheap persisting of any spell of 4th-level or lower, from any list.

(Nevermind that the spellthief can do it too. If you have access to items at all, then both sides can become unkillable relatively easily, at which point the winner's going to be the one with the ability to toss around Disjunctions until the other one stops being unkillable.)

[Falcos]

I would honestly argue that magic items would tip the favour to the side of one who is aware of the upcoming conflict, and not just buying general-use items.

But I do understand that if any of a myriad of conditions is met, the thief is so far out of luck that it isn't funny.

[ben-zayb]

I would honestly argue that magic items would tip the favour to the side of one who is aware of the upcoming conflict, and not just buying general-use items.

But I do understand that if any of a myriad of conditions is met, the thief is so far out of luck that it isn't funny.

But why, though? The proposed items are all general purpose defense spells. And the spellthief can't even address its biggest hindrance: 5000+ feet of distance. Godly penalties to Spot and attack, no true seeing, max range of weapons, max range of sneak attack itself...

"Myriads of conditions" is not needed to beat the Spellthief, it's the other way around.

[Eldariel]

I would honestly argue that magic items would tip the favour to the side of one who is aware of the upcoming conflict, and not just buying general-use items.

But I do understand that if any of a myriad of conditions is met, the thief is so far out of luck that it isn't funny.

I don't think Spellthief is a viable approach. Not optimal at any rate. Precision damage is just too easy to be immune to and Spellthief doesn't actually grant anything useful much of the time: stealing spells from a level 20 caster is a minor annoyance at best and doing that means you aren't casting your own level 9 spells. If you successfully deal damage to a level 20 caster, you could've killed them instead. It's not hard to ramp up damage your attacks do. Thus, stealing spells is either useless (if you don't successfully attack them) or useless (if you successfully kill them with your attack). There's very little middle ground. Spellthief is far better for helping allied casters share spells across the party than stealing them from high level enemy casters.

My top picks for ways to approach beating casters without being a caster yourself are:
- Factotum [Dungeonscape]: They can get a ton of standard actions and pierce most defenses with ease. High-level Factotums can actually mimic basically any ability in the game making them top tier versatile (only difference is of course, they lack the gamebreaking power for 19 levels which makes them significantly weaker). Anywhere from 8 to 20 levels of Factotum is great for any kind of a stealth/stalker shell you want to try to tackle mages with.
- Eternal Blade [Tome of Battle]: It gets a built-in super-Celerity. Maneuvers also shore up a lot of normal issues in physical options and it's easy enough to build an archer whose basic damage is sufficient to kill basically anything in one full-round action and overcome most number ramp options while still maintaining the ability to also melee oneshot and threaten squares enabling a myriad of approaches. Stealth has to be built onto the shell since it's naturally limited to Hide/Move Silently and Darkstalker here but at least those can be made class skills.

Those are the two martial shells I've seen pose some nice numbers, though the Infinite Celerity (that is, lack of Immediate Action cost) ruling would of course make Eternal Blade far less relevant. Still, Warblade/Swordsage base gets some nice toys to at least allow them to be surprising threats if not surpassing a caster in any regard. Stealth shell in and of itself isn't bad; the right kind of Hide in Plain Sight plus extreme skill modifiers plus Darkstalker plus Mind Blank is one of the few things spells don't trivially negate and while there are ways around that (Elemental Weirds...).

However, your stealth shell needs to have a way to deal normal damage sufficient to kill your target in one action. Now, immunity to death is one thing but at least on base level, not being reliant on precision damage/criticals is absolutely crucial. Then you can begin using various anti-magic tools to try and penetrate the target's immunities and Thinaun to seal away their soul to avoid resurrection/soul escaping/etc. and so on. It's not foolproof but it's far better than most attempts at building mage slayers (which is not saying much, sadly; I don't think most people doing this bother even figuring out what level 20 casters can do before trying so they're kinda tilting at windmills and building random stuff that has no real point other than sounding impressive).

Then you need to begin working on ways to find out how to sneak up on mages/keep up with people teleporting thousands of miles/across planes in seconds while staying undetected, how to gather information on Mind Blanked supermobile casters that can look like anything they want (Sorcerers in particular are extremely charismatic so even that aspect can be difficult) and be wherever they want including extra-dimensional spaces not accessible to anyone they don't want or even their own planes.


And Shapechange all day is the most bogstandard Core buff there is; you need to be able to deal with something shifting form as a free action once per round for every round of their whole day. That's just what you're up against if you try to hunt level 20 casters. If you go for lower level game, fine, but vs. level 17-18+ Shapechange is game and you'll bet your ass they'll make use of it. It's the most spell slot-efficient means of getting stuff done: once you've cast Shapechange, you can win most combats and solve most problems without ever casting another spell. The rest of your spells can remain in reserve.

[Falcos]

I said any of a myriad of conditions, not all of a myriad of conditions.

And yeah, conceded, spellthief is not ideal mage-hunter.

[Mr Adventurer]

Apropos of very little, a Spellthief might be the BEST psi-hunter if you believe the people who say "psionics is (Sp)". :D

(OK not really because of all the same reasons in this thread but the idea of stealing the whole manifesting ability was worth a lol, I thought!)