The 5E Gish

[NeoSeraphi]

So there are a lot of options for the magic warrior in 5E. For burst with your attacks, there's paladin and elemental monk. For accuracy or defense and healing, there's all the martial clerics. For warriors who use magic to buff themselves, the eldritch knight, paladin, and valorous bard. And bladelock is somewhere in there too.

So which class is preferable for gishes? And how much casting do you need with your beef to be effective. What spells are ideal for a gish in 5E?

[Easy_Lee]

Largely opinion, but my thought is that the best gish spells do one of two things:

Help you hit the target - magic weapon, fly (so you can get to them), haste, and so on
Deal with targets too strong to reasonably beat down - wisdom and charisma saves would be the most consistent

For these reasons in addition to full casting, I believe blade pact warlocks actually make the best gish.

[NeoSeraphi]

A solid argument. But with light armor and d8 hp (can warlock use shields?) I'd be afraid to get into the thick of things. Maybe a one level dip of fighter for heavy armor + Defensive fighting style?

[Easy_Lee]

A solid argument. But with light armor and d8 hp (can warlock use shields?) I'd be afraid to get into the thick of things. Maybe a one level dip of fighter for heavy armor + Defensive fighting style?

Two options for good AC and better DPR at all levels than EB:

Take one level of fighter and variant human at level 1. Take polearm master, dueling fighting style, and use a quarterstaff in one hand. Use heavy armor and a shield, AC = 20, and all ASIs go to STR then CHA until both are maxed. At 13, you can start adding both CHA and STR to your three attacks per round. Progression delayed by one level, but it's worth it.
Convince your DM that some kind of finesse dual weapon should be reasonable. Say you want to play like darth maul, wielding a single weapon that effectively functions like dual wielding scimitars or rapiers. This way you won't need a fighter dip, can use DEX with armor of shadows for up to 18AC, and can pick up defensive duelist (preferably from variant human) or dual wielder to push your defenses (and possibly damage) higher. DPR will be a little below the above, but you won't have to delay your progression.

One notable thing both can do is take the warcaster feat early. This delays your stat progression, which is rough, but let's you turn your opportunity attacks into Eldritch blasts. The damage potential here is obviously huge, and I really can't believe WotC let this through when you compare it to a single attack from a greatsword.

[Balor777]

Two options for good AC and better DPR at all levels than EB:
[list]

Convince your DM that some kind of finesse dual weapon should be reasonable.

The difficult part on "try to convince" your DM would be this:

Take one level of fighter and variant human at level 1. Take polearm master, dueling fighting style, and use a quarterstaff in one hand. Use heavy armor and a shield, AC = 20,
Once youll start speaking about "now i attack with the other side" there gonna be war.

The best gish in this edition is
2lvl PALA/1lvl fighter for TWF style(more smites)/17 sorc.
or
6 pala/14 sorc.
Always human with heavy armor master feat.

[Easy_Lee]

The difficult part on "try to convince" your DM would be this:

It's RAW. He can't do **** about it besides houserule. If he's willing to houserule, option two is more reasonable and should be allowed.

If he says no to both, just play a sorcerer and destroy his campaign. Sorcerers too stronk.

[NeoSeraphi]

If you play bladelock, what spells from the warlock spell list would you recommend for a gish? And which Lord would work best?

[NeoSeraphi]

The best gish in this edition is
2lvl PALA/1lvl fighter for TWF style(more smites)/17 sorc.
or
6 pala/14 sorc.
Always human with heavy armor master feat.

Really? :smallconfused: What spells does the sorcerer add to the equation? Metamagic, the sorcerer class features, and the list all seem purely damage focused.

[Balor777]

If he says no to both, just play a sorcerer and destroy his campaign. Sorcerers too stronk.

Yeah i agree with that.TWF pala2/fighter1/sorc 17.Because who else can choose between doing melee 3d8+STR+6d8 per round(smite+haste) or cast a twinned chain lightning for some 64d8 damage?
and still have some 20 AC?

[Easy_Lee]

If you play bladelock, what spells from the warlock spell list would you recommend for a gish? And which Lord would work best?

I'm rather fond of fey patron. The defensive capabilities are nice, your patron (DM) probably won't ask you to do anything too mean, and it encourages you to act like a meddling pixie jackass.

For darker and edgier, fiend pact is good DPR. The spell selection isn't the best, since you don't need the attack options. But you could one day pull off two attacks, hurl through hell, and hold an action for power word kill when the target gets back. That's some pretty serious damage.

For spells, Hex is mandatory. Beyond that, I really like hold person, crown of madness, and misty step just to cover the bases. As many have stated, darkness can be good with the right party. But it's really up to you what you think is useful in your campaign.

The only spells I would stay away from are non-aoe attack spells. You should be using your blade (or Eldritch blast) for that.

[Balor777]

Really? :smallconfused: What spells does the sorcerer add to the equation? Metamagic, the sorcerer class features, and the list all seem purely damage focused.

You are against 2x lvl10 evil warlords and one Iron golem.Your are in a party of 3
Tough fight.Right?
What about twin dominate person the warlords and tell them to kill the iron golem?
Its 5v1 now .Plus you can keep them as friend for some 8 hours :)

[NeoSeraphi]

But wait, I thought enchantment/control spells were unreliable in this edition because of the Legendary Save ability? :smallconfused:

That's part of the reason I want to play a gish. It seems buffing and damage are the only good spell types.

[calebrus]

twinned chain lightning for some 64d8 damage?

Twinned spell: When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self....

Chain Lightning: You create a bolt of lightning that arcs toward a target of your choice that you can see within range. Three bolts then leap from that target to as many as three other targets....

You can't twin Chain Lightning.


But wait, I thought enchantment/control spells were unreliable in this edition because of the Legendary Save ability? :smallconfused:

That's part of the reason I want to play a gish. It seems buffing and damage are the only good spell types.

That's to keep "legendary" fights from being insta-gibs by casters. If you target the correct save, then all you have to do is cast some crappy 1st level spells with saves for the first few rounds (or from multiple casters in the same round), and then bring the big guns with saves. It just means that any fight with a legendary creature has to last more than one round.

[Easy_Lee]

That's to keep "legendary" fights from being insta-gibs by casters. If you target the correct save, then all you have to do is cast some crappy 1st level spells with saves for the first few rounds (or from multiple casters in the same round), and then bring the big guns with saves. It just means that any fight with a legendary creature has to last more than one round.

Very true, and most mobs don't have legendary resistance. Even holding or turning one mob can often make a fight easy.

[NeoSeraphi]

That's to keep "legendary" fights from being insta-gibs by casters. If you target the correct save, then all you have to do is cast some crappy 1st level spells with saves for the first few rounds (or from multiple casters in the same round), and then bring the big guns with saves. It just means that any fight with a legendary creature has to last more than one round.

I don't know. I'm skeptical. Between gnomes having advantage on three saves and Resilient and monks proficient in all saves and barbarians/nature clerics/ancient paladin resistances it seems like save-based casting is a trap.

[Easy_Lee]

I don't know. I'm skeptical. Between gnomes having advantage on three saves and Resilient and monks proficient in all saves and barbarians/nature clerics/ancient paladin resistances it seems like save-based casting is a trap.

Only if you're attacking gnomish monks. See the thread below for an idea of how many proficient saves to expect by CR. Notably, even a +11 in a save requires you roll 7 or higher (70%) to resist the spell.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387385-Monster-Stat-By-CR-(Now-with-better-damage-resistance-info!)&highlight=CR

[calebrus]

I don't know. I'm skeptical. Between gnomes having advantage on three saves and Resilient and monks proficient in all saves and barbarians/nature clerics/ancient paladin resistances it seems like save-based casting is a trap.

Monsters aren't built like PCs in 5e, and if your DM pits you against anything with actual class levels from the PHB its CR essentially goes through the roof.
You won't be facing a bunch of high level monks and whatnot. And even if you eventually do, you'll certainly have a few damage dealing spells to compensate anyway (because if you don't, then what the hell were you thinking?...).

[Easy_Lee]

Monsters aren't built like PCs in 5e, and if your DM pits you against anything with actual class levels from the PHB its CR essentially goes through the roof.
You won't be facing a bunch of high level monks and whatnot. And even if you eventually do, you'll certainly have a few damage dealing spells to compensate anyway (because if you don't, then what the hell were you thinking?...).

Or you can just beat them with your stick/dual scimitar.

What he said about CR for players is noteworthy. I rolled up a level 3 blade pact warlock to send at my 3-player table of level 2's. I had to hold back to keep from TPKing them 1v3.

[NeoSeraphi]

Okay. Solid advice, everyone. But back on topic. How does the valorous bard match up to the blade pact warlock as a gish? As the other full caster option I would guess it's quite strong.

[Balor777]

Twinned spell: When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self....

Chain Lightning: You create a bolt of lightning that arcs toward a target of your choice that you can see within range. Three bolts then leap from that target to as many as three other targets....

You cant can twin Chain Lightning.

It targets only one creature and then spreads to three others if they are there.
Its not a line/cube/cone/sphere/cylinder area targeting spell/it doesnt threat an area.You cannot cast it near a rock to damage the guy hiding behind it.
Also you cant cast it without targeting a creature.Exactly like finger or death / blight / disintegrate / dominate person and 30 other single target non AoE spells.

[Eslin]

It targets only one creature and then spreads to three others if they are there.
Its not a line/cube/cone/sphere/cylinder area targeting spell/it doesnt threat an area.You cannot cast it near a rock to damage the guy hiding behind it.
Also you cant cast it without targeting a creature.Exactly like finger or death / blight / disintegrate / dominate person and 30 other single target non AoE spells.

That is hilarious, I love it. Twin spell's making the sorcerer look better and better, pity about the subclasses both being kinda crappy - as soon as a good one comes out, I'm playing the hell out of a sorcerer.

[calebrus]

It targets only one creature and then spreads to three others if they are there.
Its not a line/cube/cone/sphere/cylinder area targeting spell/it doesnt threat an area.You cannot cast it near a rock to damage the guy hiding behind it.
Also you cant cast it without targeting a creature.Exactly like finger or death / blight / disintegrate / dominate person and 30 other single target non AoE spells.

It doesn't "spread to three other creatures" as you say. It "leaps fro that target to as many as three other targets" which is an important difference.
It doesn't leap from that target to three other creatures, it leaps from that target to three other targets.
Meaning four targets.
And your math of (60+)d8 means that it did indeed target those three other targets, meaning it no longer targeted only a single creature.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "line/cube/cone/sphere/cylinder area targeting spell" in 5e. Those are areas of effects. Those AoEs still have a target point, not a target AoE. There is no such thing as a target AoE in 5e.

You cannot twin Chain Lightning.
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/12/11/twinned-spell-2/
Twinned Spell only works with what would have been considered "single target spells" in 3e.
If a spell "can" target more than one creature, it cannot be twinned.

[Balor777]

It doesn't "spread to three other creatures" as you say. It "leaps fro that target to as many as three other targets" which is an important difference.
It doesn't leap from that target to three other creatures, it leaps from that target to three other targets.
Meaning four targets.
And your math of (60+)d8 means that it did indeed target those three other targets, meaning it no longer targeted only a single creature.

You cannot twin Chain Lightning.
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/12/11/twinned-spell-2/

Because i was sure you wont get it:(As writen in the player's handbook)
Fireball:
"Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must
make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire"

Chain lightining:
You create a bolt of lightning that arcs toward a target of
your choice that you can see within range


http://postimg.org/image/c99j8jwh1/

[calebrus]

Because i was sure you wont get it:

I left the link because I was sure that you wouldn't get it.
Why don't you click the link?

And I'll copy my edit in here, in case you missed it.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "line/cube/cone/sphere/cylinder area targeting spell" in 5e. Those are areas of effects. Those AoEs still have a target point, not a target AoE. There is no such thing as a target AoE in 5e.

You cannot twin Chain Lightning.
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/12/11/twinned-spell-2/
Twinned Spell only works with what would have been considered "single target spells" in 3e.
If a spell "can" target more than one creature, it cannot be twinned.


edit:
And your link shows incorrect information.
"Fireball:
"Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must
make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire"

"centered on a point"
The point is the target, not the AoE. The fact that multiple enemies can be affected means that it can't be twinned. Again, Twinned Spell only works on spells which, in earlier editions, would have been considered single target spells.

[Balor777]

That is hilarious, I love it. Twin spell's making the sorcerer look better and better, pity about the subclasses both being kinda crappy - as soon as a good one comes out, I'm playing the hell out of a sorcerer.

Yeah both the subclasses suck.
Who the hell had the idea of making the dragonborn resistance not work a feature of the class that fits the most as a race.

[calebrus]

PHB, page 204

Targets
A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (as described below).

Emphasis mine.
AoEs target a point not an AoE, but any affected creatures count as targets as well of the spell as well for these purposes.
If a spell can affect multiple creatures, it cannot be twinned.
Single target spells only.

Chain Lightning isn't a single target spell. Chain lightning is an AoE, 30' radius, centered on a point. That point, in this case, happens to be a creature instead of a place.

[Balor777]

I left the link because I was sure that you wouldn't get it.
Why don't you click the link?

And I'll copy my edit in here, in case you missed it.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "line/cube/cone/sphere/cylinder area targeting spell" in 5e. Those are areas of effects. Those AoEs still have a target point, not a target AoE. There is no such thing as a target AoE in 5e.

You cannot twin Chain Lightning.
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/12/11/twinned-spell-2/
Twinned Spell only works with what would have been considered "single target spells" in 3e.
If a spell "can" target more than one creature, it cannot be twinne

By spell descripion in the book.
Fireball:
"Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must
make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire"
So:
The target is all Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere.RAW.
You target Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere so no twin.

Chain lightning:

"You create a bolt of lightning that arcs toward a target of
your choice that you can see within range"

The chain lightning clearly states you target one guy.RAW again.



A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (as described below).

Yes in chain lightning you pick one Target.You cant controll were it gonna go next.On fireball you know what targets you will affect.

[calebrus]

Simply put, you are wrong.

[Balor777]

Simply put, you are wrong.

No its your words that if it affects more targets than one cannot be twinned.Not by the book.
If it was writen "affect" i would agree.
There are two multiple target spells.
The shape/area attack that describe cone/line etc
And "Creatures of your choice" spells.
Bith of this two are multiple target spells and you know/choose who you gonna target.
Chain lightning is special.You target one target, and then it goes wherever luck chooses to.

Even Crawford said "target" not affect.

[calebrus]

Even Crawford said "target" not affect.

Even your Chain Lightning spell says the word "target."
Three other targets. Meaning more than one. Meaning it cannot be twinned.

[Balor777]

Even your Chain Lightning spell says the word "target."
Three other targets. Meaning more than one. Meaning it cannot be twinned.

Do you have controll of where it gonna jump after target 1?If yes then your right.Because they ARE targets since you choose to target them.
If not , then its not a multiple target spell.

[Easy_Lee]

Simply put, you are wrong.

Simply put, if a spell has one target and a sorcerer can cast it, then it can be twinned. There is no debating that. Chain lightning has one target when cast; the jumps are not part of its targeting. From the wording, it's not even clear that the caster chooses the additional targets; he only picks the one, after which the spell may be out of his hands depending on the DM's interpretation. So I fear you're the one wrong in this case.

Let's try and get back on topic. As far as valor bards go, they can cast a cantrip and make an attack similar to the way Eldritch Knights can. For that reason, I suspect valor bards actually make quite good gish characters, probably better than an EK overall as long as they have the right cantrips.

That said, they have no way to add CHA to cantrip damage. If going valor bard, I would definitely take two levels of warlock for the EB cantrip to fix that. Three levels of warlock for the ability to make pact weapons might not be a bad idea, either.

[LucianoAr]

well, for me the paladin lacks the gish flavor... you need arcane magic for that (imho)

so anything with lvls in wiz/sorc/warlock

currently im trying different builds, always including 3 rogue levels (for assasinate, skill monkey goodness and mobility its just the best 3 levels ever) and mix n matching fighter/sorc/lock lvls

[NeoSeraphi]

well, for me the paladin lacks the gish flavor... you need arcane magic for that (imho)

so anything with lvls in wiz/sorc/warlock

currently im trying different builds, always including 3 rogue levels (for assasinate, skill monkey goodness and mobility its just the best 3 levels ever) and mix n matching fighter/sorc/lock lvls

Well for multiclassing, I was wondering what level combination would be most preferable. How much casting does a wizard/fighter need to be effective?

[LucianoAr]

Well for multiclassing, I was wondering what level combination would be most preferable. How much casting does a wizard/fighter need to be effective?

effective as in? you can get away with nice things with a lvl3 sorc or lock. but if you want fireballs/haste you need at least 5. (my choice would be 5)

do you want to hit with magic or just use it as utlility/buffs? thats a core question.

i dont build lvl20 builds cause you never play them, currently i want to try bladelock 5/rogue 5


basically, what you want to do is choose a fighter flavor and a magic user flavor, and then mix and match according to your taste and the signature abilities (that you usually get at lvls 3, 5 and 7)

[Chronos]

Quoth LucianoAr:

well, for me the paladin lacks the gish flavor... you need arcane magic for that (imho)
Arcane magic? What's that? Are you trying to tell me that there's more than one kind of magic?

[LucianoAr]

Arcane magic? What's that? Are you trying to tell me that there's more than one kind of magic?

well yes, clerics and paladins have divine magic, and wiz/sor/lock have arcane magic

[Sidmen]

well yes, clerics and paladins have divine magic, and wiz/sor/lock have arcane magic

What he's getting at is that there is no Arcane/Divine magic divide in 5e, there is simply magic. Which many (say, most) classes have access to through some means or another.

The Arcane/Divine division could easily be Arcane/Primal/Divine/Martial/etc./etc. these days.

[EvanescentHero]

Arcane magic? What's that? Are you trying to tell me that there's more than one kind of magic?

The sidebar on The Weave in the PHB (I'm AFB, so I dunno where exactly that is) talks about arcane and divine magic, so yes, there is more than one kind of magic.

[NeoSeraphi]

effective as in? you can get away with nice things with a lvl3 sorc or lock. but if you want fireballs/haste you need at least 5. (my choice would be 5)

do you want to hit with magic or just use it as utlility/buffs? thats a core question.

i dont build lvl20 builds cause you never play them, currently i want to try bladelock 5/rogue 5


basically, what you want to do is choose a fighter flavor and a magic user flavor, and then mix and match according to your taste and the signature abilities (that you usually get at lvls 3, 5 and 7)

I want a warrior who can use magic effectively to increase his combat prowess, but I don't want to go too deep into caster and miss important class features like Extra Attack. Also keeping casting score to a minimum so that I can use good scores for things like Str, Dex and Con.

[Easy_Lee]

I want a warrior who can use magic effectively to increase his combat prowess, but I don't want to go too deep into caster and miss important class features like Extra Attack. Also keeping casting score to a minimum so that I can use good scores for things like Str, Dex and Con.

That's tough to do, because EK gets mostly attack spells. You can get spells like fly with your free slots, but the two school limit makes it difficult. It sounds like you want the equivalent of a paladin or Ranger, but for arcane casting, which sadly does not exist (EK is a limited 1/3 caster, as opposed to a 1/2 caster).

Picking a complex build like the oft mentioned paladin/sorcerer may be the only way to really pull this off. Something like fighter 11 / wizard 9 may do it, but there will be a lot of levels in there that aren't particularly fun and you may end up with fewer feats than you want.

[calebrus]

I want a warrior who can use magic effectively to increase his combat prowess, but I don't want to go too deep into caster and miss important class features like Extra Attack. Also keeping casting score to a minimum so that I can use good scores for things like Str, Dex and Con.

So you want at least 11 levels of fighter (which means 12 because the ASI is next level), and you only lose the last lvl20 attack. You want at least 5 levels of Wizard to get a decent amount and variety of utility and combat spells (haste, etc). Yes, I realize that you could get haste from one of your out-of-school EK spells, but those are few and far between.

I think that means your best bets are:
Fighter 12 / Wizard 5 / anything 3 (anything could add to those two as well as a third class for 1-2-3 dip)
Fighter 13 / Wizard 7 (3rd/4th spells known, 6th level slots, 3 attacks, the second wiz subclass ability)

Fighter 3 to get EK, then 1 level of Wiz (to get more and varied spells, arcane recovery for one more slot, and a few rituals), then more fighter until you decide that you want more spell variety, and switch off as needed until you're satisfied. Or just finish the rest of wiz at the end after at least 11 fighter.

[LucianoAr]

I want a warrior who can use magic effectively to increase his combat prowess, but I don't want to go too deep into caster and miss important class features like Extra Attack. Also keeping casting score to a minimum so that I can use good scores for things like Str, Dex and Con.

id say a fighter bladelock, something like fighter 5 lock 3, or fighter 11 lock 5 sounds nice. the other path would be EK/wizard as stated above. id seriously look into roguelock too, its my favourite multiclass so far.

[DDogwood]

The sidebar on The Weave in the PHB (I'm AFB, so I dunno where exactly that is) talks about arcane and divine magic, so yes, there is more than one kind of magic.

True, but that's the only reference to an arcane/divine split in the book, and it's presented as flavor text rather than as rules. If you wanted a Paladin who used "arcane" magic instead of "divine" magic, you're not making any more changes to the rules than you are if you call your longsword a "katana".

[Seruvius]

Personally id chose Paladin for a Tank n Spank gish. high AC, utility buff/heals and that DPS from smite and great weapin fighting style is pretty damn sexy.

[Naanomi]

I'm currently playing a character that is a ranged combatant now but going to transition into a Gish at mid/high levels.

Variant Human
Warlock 4/Sorcerer 4/Fighter 2/Warlock +1/Sorcerer +9

I eldritch blast every round, multiple times a round; like a boring 'attack every round' melee type in a way. Except Hex and Eldritch Blast, pretty much every spell is of the 'utility' sort; intentionally avoiding other combat options to not detract from the 'magic shotgun' approach. A passable thief-type and party face as well. And unparalleled sniping ability; which generally has little practical application as an adventurer but makes a good plot point sometimes.


STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 16

Variant Human - Spell Sniper Feat
Criminal Background

Skills:
Investigation, Stealth, Deception, Perception, *Thief Tools, *Dice

Warlock 1: Fiend Patron; Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand; Hex, Armor of Agathys
Warlock 2: Agonizing Blast, Eldritch Spear; Command
Warlock 3: Pact of the Chain; Mirror Image
Warlock 4: +2 Charisma; Friends; Suggestion
Sorcerer 1: Wild Mage; Minor Illusion, Message, Mending, Light; Shield, Sleep
Sorcerer 2: Detect Magic
Sorcerer 3: Distant Spell, Quicken Spell; Darkvision, Spider Climb, Detect Magic
Sorcerer 4: +2 Charisma; Dancing Lights; Knock
Fighter 1: Defensive Fighting Style
Fighter 2
Warlock 5: Repelling Blast; Counterspell
Sorcerer 5: Fly, Dispel Magic, Spiderclimb
Sorcerer 6: Major Image
Sorcerer 7: Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Sleep
Sorcerer 8: Warcaster; Banishment
Sorcerer 9: Creation, Telekinesis, Armor of Agathys
Sorcerer 10: Extend Spell; Blade Ward; Teleportation Circle
Sorcerer 11: True Seeing
Sorcerer 12: Polearm Master
Sorcerer 13: Teleport, Planeshift, Knock

The Mriswit family was a well known clan of sorcerers who lived in the hills. Separate from their neighbors to protect them from the streak of wild-magic that ran strong in their family, they were none-the-less well liked by the neighboring villages who enlisted their magic talents when. Their reputation cost them, as their youngest child Mariess was kidnapped by those seeking to abuse that power for their own.

Mariess grew up from infancy amongst the Black-Hat Thief Guild; treated well and taught the ins and outs of the criminal world while the guildmasters awaited her power to blossom for their own ends. On her thirteenth birthday, the guildmasters grew tired of waiting, and performed dark rituals to bind her to a Fiendish Patron and attempt to jumpstart her powers. It worked, in a way, but also scared the young girl into fleeing from her adoptive family and eventually seek her freedom adventuring in distant lands to escape her captors and maybe find her family again one day.

[Eslin]

True, but that's the only reference to an arcane/divine split in the book, and it's presented as flavor text rather than as rules. If you wanted a Paladin who used "arcane" magic instead of "divine" magic, you're not making any more changes to the rules than you are if you call your longsword a "katana".

Huh. You're right, and it's not a bad idea - they use charisma now, so you can easily refluff the casting as arcane.

[zhdarkstar]

I'm currently playing a character that is a ranged combatant now but going to transition into a Gish at mid/high levels.

Variant Human
Warlock 4/Sorcerer 4/Fighter 2/Warlock +1/Sorcerer +9

I eldritch blast every round, multiple times a round; like a boring 'attack every round' melee type in a way. Except Hex and Eldritch Blast, pretty much every spell is of the 'utility' sort; intentionally avoiding other combat options to not detract from the 'magic shotgun' approach. A passable thief-type and party face as well. And unparalleled sniping ability; which generally has little practical application as an adventurer but makes a good plot point sometimes.


STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 16

Variant Human - Spell Sniper Feat
Criminal Background

Skills:
Investigation, Stealth, Deception, Perception, *Thief Tools, *Dice

Warlock 1: Fiend Patron; Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand; Hex, Armor of Agathys
Warlock 2: Agonizing Blast, Eldritch Spear; Command
Warlock 3: Pact of the Chain; Mirror Image
Warlock 4: +2 Charisma; Friends; Suggestion
Sorcerer 1: Wild Mage; Minor Illusion, Message, Mending, Light; Shield, Sleep
Sorcerer 2: Detect Magic
Sorcerer 3: Distant Spell, Quicken Spell; Darkvision, Spider Climb, Detect Magic
Sorcerer 4: +2 Charisma; Dancing Lights; Knock
Fighter 1: Defensive Fighting Style
Fighter 2
Warlock 5: Repelling Blast; Counterspell
Sorcerer 5: Fly, Dispel Magic, Spiderclimb
Sorcerer 6: Major Image
Sorcerer 7: Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Sleep
Sorcerer 8: Warcaster; Banishment
Sorcerer 9: Creation, Telekinesis, Armor of Agathys
Sorcerer 10: Extend Spell; Blade Ward; Teleportation Circle
Sorcerer 11: True Seeing
Sorcerer 12: Polearm Master
Sorcerer 13: Teleport, Planeshift, Knock

The Mriswit family was a well known clan of sorcerers who lived in the hills. Separate from their neighbors to protect them from the streak of wild-magic that ran strong in their family, they were none-the-less well liked by the neighboring villages who enlisted their magic talents when. Their reputation cost them, as their youngest child Mariess was kidnapped by those seeking to abuse that power for their own.

Mariess grew up from infancy amongst the Black-Hat Thief Guild; treated well and taught the ins and outs of the criminal world while the guildmasters awaited her power to blossom for their own ends. On her thirteenth birthday, the guildmasters grew tired of waiting, and performed dark rituals to bind her to a Fiendish Patron and attempt to jumpstart her powers. It worked, in a way, but also scared the young girl into fleeing from her adoptive family and eventually seek her freedom adventuring in distant lands to escape her captors and maybe find her family again one day.

You're missing a cantrip at Warlock 1 because of Spell Sniper. You could use the feat to grab Eldritch Blast and take Minor Illusion much earlier. Also, you can't switch out Armor of Agathys with a sorcerer spell as it's a warlock spell. However, you can switch it with a 3rd level warlock spell, like Dispel Magic, when you get Counterspell at Warlock 5.

[Yagyujubei]

I want a warrior who can use magic effectively to increase his combat prowess, but I don't want to go too deep into caster and miss important class features like Extra Attack. Also keeping casting score to a minimum so that I can use good scores for things like Str, Dex and Con.

I would go EK fighter12/lore bard8 mainly because it offers more versatility in battle and specifically OUT of battle which is something I always look for in a build. I'm never content with the 2 skills most martial classes are stuck with, and I love being the(or one of the) party face(s).

this build lets you do all of that while still bringing 4 attacks when you have haste up which is as good as it gets, and you also have war magic and eldritch strike which are both amazing. That being said, you have to remember that Concentration being a thing has already nerfed any gish build a bit right out of the gate.

also ITT Balor knows more about DnD than Mike Mearls, thanks for the laugh.

[Chronos]

Note that you get fewer proficiencies from multiclassing than from your original class. If you combine bard or rogue with anything else, you probably want to take the bard or rogue level first.

Combining eldritch knight with bard means that your only dumpstat is strength (I'm still getting used to the fact that that's a dumpstat for fighters), as opposed to the two or three dumpstats most classes get. And wizard probably has more out-of-combat utility than bard, anyway, between all of the rituals, long-duration spells, and niche spells that come up occasionally but too rarely to be worth a spell known.

I'd still probably recommend pure paladin, refluffed to arcane if you prefer, as a gish. Their spells are actually designed for that purpose, and they've got some awesome defensive abilities for your whole party (+5 to all saves and immunity to charm are both huge, and resistance to spell damage is also quite nice). Though admittedly the gishiest oath doesn't have as many protective auras as the other two.

[FyreHeart]

Okay. Solid advice, everyone. But back on topic. How does the valorous bard match up to the blade pact warlock as a gish? As the other full caster option I would guess it's quite strong.

You could always multi-class Warlock with Bard. That's what I have currently for my Tiefling with an Archfey patron and pseudodragon familiar. Valor Bards would work well with Warlock: you get access to better armor and weapons as well. And you can still demoralize them in combat with that awesome Charisma lol.

[toapat]

Personally id chose Paladin for a Tank n Spank gish. high AC, utility buff/heals and that DPS from smite and great weapin fighting style is pretty damn sexy.

paladin pretty much is as far from tank gish as you can get. their spells mostly are support and offense, not defense. Heals still blow in combat. Paladin doesnt even have Shield Other this edition.

EK is the tank gish and that is pretty much pooped on from high orbit by Champion Fighter 12/ Fullcaster 8

[Easy_Lee]

EK is the tank gish and that is pretty much pooped on from high orbit by Champion Fighter 12/ Fullcaster 8

Only if you start at 20, otherwise you're waiting until 13 for your first spells. Even then, pure EK can cast a spell and make an attack in the same round, and gets more fighter features. That said, a blade-pact warlock probably fits the Gish concept best, all things considered.

[toapat]

Only if you start at 20, otherwise you're waiting until 13 for your first spells. Even then, pure EK can cast a spell and make an attack in the same round, and gets more fighter features. That said, a blade-pact warlock probably fits the Gish concept best, all things considered.

the progression needs work but 12/8 still beats EK even taking second level and every third after that as your caster class.

Its the fact that you get more then 3 spells from outside of the 2 restricted schools. Sure the Cantrip + attack is decent but what about Hex?

[Easy_Lee]

the progression needs work but 12/8 still beats EK even taking second level and every third after that as your caster class.

Its the fact that you get more then 3 spells from outside of the 2 restricted schools. Sure the Cantrip + attack is decent but what about Hex?

You can pick up Hex with a feat. But if you want to go down that route, the better build is warlock 2 / valor bard 18. That nets you:

two Hex casts per short rest
Eldritch blast with charisma to damage
armor of shadows or another invocation of choice
9 levels of casting at a two level delay (which is fine for a gish) with a huge spell selection
the ability to cast a cantrip and make a single weapon attack in the same turn

The cantrips plus attack is really important, because it negates the need for full attack progression. In fact, you make up to 5 attack rolls per round. With Hex and assuming a rapier and max stats, your damage at 17 looks like this:
(1d8+5) piercing +4(1d10+5) force +5(1d6) necrotic = 69, dude

[Naanomi]

Pick up Shillelagh as the valor bard later and totally run on CHA for this setup as well

[toapat]

You can pick up Hex with a feat. But if you want to go down that route, the better build is warlock 2 / valor bard 18. That nets you:

two Hex casts per short rest
Eldritch blast with charisma to damage
armor of shadows or another invocation of choice
9 levels of casting at a two level delay (which is fine for a gish) with a huge spell selection
the ability to cast a cantrip and make a single weapon attack in the same turn

The cantrips plus attack is really important, because it negates the need for full attack progression. In fact, you make up to 5 attack rolls per round. With Hex and assuming a rapier and max stats, your damage at 17 looks like this:
(1d8+5) piercing +4(1d10+5) force +5(1d6) necrotic = 69, dude

The fact is, no matter how you work it, the worst gish builds are straight EK and AT, and if you really want to work it that way, then the only classes that survives as a gish are paladin and valor bard, because even bladelock ends up just wanting to be a pure caster. Hex and Hunter's Mark are just easy refferences to why the EK isnt even good at what its supposed to be good at

[Easy_Lee]

The fact is, no matter how you work it, the worst gish builds are straight EK and AT, and if you really want to work it that way, then the only classes that survives as a gish are paladin and valor bard, because even bladelock ends up just wanting to be a pure caster. Hex and Hunter's Mark are just easy refferences to why the EK isnt even good at what its supposed to be good at

A fighter 1 / blade lock 19 with a polearm and polearm mastery is still a strong build, though. Best is quarterstaff, shield, and dueling, which adds 2+str+cha to attacks after 13 (12 warlock) .

2*(1d6+2+5+5 two attacks) + (1d4+2+5+5 bonus attack) + 3*(1d6 hex) = 56, not too bad at all.

Notably this build gets plenty of invocations to work with, plus pact features and a smaller delay on casting progression. The build is best if your DM allows a homebrewed double scimitar, though, so you can go straight warlock and Dex.

[Pyrophilios]

While we are at the topic:
For a campaign that probably won't move beyond level 10, what is the forum's opinion on a Tome Warlock as a gish?

I plan on taking Shillelagh, Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Polearm Master (human feat) and War Caster (level 4) with one level of fighter for shield proficiency and armor bonus.

[Easy_Lee]

While we are at the topic:
For a campaign that probably won't move beyond level 10, what is the forum's opinion on a Tome Warlock as a gish?

I plan on taking Shillelagh, Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Polearm Master (human feat) and War Caster (level 4) with one level of fighter for shield proficiency and armor bonus.

Well, I don't think you'll have much reason to use a weapon past 5, since Eldritch blast scales so well. Tome warlock doesn't get extra attack, so the best damage you'll ever get is two quarterstaff attacks. That also costs your bonus action, meaning you can't use it for hex and similar.

You could potentially take a level of fighter for great tankiness, though. Variant human fighter with the armored fighting style, a shield, plate armor, a rapier, and defensive duelist can hit the unbelievable 21/23+AC the moment plate armor is available. That's useful for any build, though bear in mind that you're still susceptible to saves.

[Yagyujubei]

Note that you get fewer proficiencies from multiclassing than from your original class. If you combine bard or rogue with anything else, you probably want to take the bard or rogue level first.

Combining eldritch knight with bard means that your only dumpstat is strength (I'm still getting used to the fact that that's a dumpstat for fighters), as opposed to the two or three dumpstats most classes get. And wizard probably has more out-of-combat utility than bard, anyway, between all of the rituals, long-duration spells, and niche spells that come up occasionally but too rarely to be worth a spell known.

I'd still probably recommend pure paladin, refluffed to arcane if you prefer, as a gish. Their spells are actually designed for that purpose, and they've got some awesome defensive abilities for your whole party (+5 to all saves and immunity to charm are both huge, and resistance to spell damage is also quite nice). Though admittedly the gishiest oath doesn't have as many protective auras as the other two.

the guy mentioned that he was most interested in self buffing type spells so you wouldnt really need a high INT stat. you could rock DEX/CHA with CON/int as secondary and just grab your save spells and stuff that requires a high mod from the bard list.

[Pyrophilios]

Well, I don't think you'll have much reason to use a weapon past 5, since Eldritch blast scales so well. Tome warlock doesn't get extra attack, so the best damage you'll ever get is two quarterstaff attacks. That also costs your bonus action, meaning you can't use it for hex and similar.

You could potentially take a level of fighter for great tankiness, though. Variant human fighter with the armored fighting style, a shield, plate armor, a rapier, and defensive duelist can hit the unbelievable 21/23+AC the moment plate armor is available. That's useful for any build, though bear in mind that you're still susceptible to saves.

Well, the main focus would of course be that - thanks to Polearm Master - entering my reach would trigger an opportunity attack that - thanks to War Caster - will be executed with Eldritch Blast combined with Repelling Blast. Ideally that resets the attacker 40ft. away without having a chance to hit me.

[Yagyujubei]

Well, the main focus would of course be that - thanks to Polearm Master - entering my reach would trigger an opportunity attack that - thanks to War Caster - will be executed with Eldritch Blast combined with Repelling Blast. Ideally that resets the attacker 40ft. away without having a chance to hit me.

if your campaign isnt going past 10 you wont be getting pushing the enemy nearly that far. the enemy will trigger your OA at 5ft away and then you'll push him back 20ft (and whether or not the push stack is debated) so they'll only be 25 ft away. But yeah, the combo is more than enough to keep a single attacker at bay assuming you always have your reaction to proc the OA with.

[Chronos]

Using a staff with Polearm Master and War Caster makes sense, but if you do that, you're never actually attacking with the staff, so Shillelagh becomes redundant.


Quoth toapat:

paladin pretty much is as far from tank gish as you can get. their spells mostly are support and offense, not defense. Heals still blow in combat. Paladin doesnt even have Shield Other this edition.
They might not get much in the way of defensive spells, but those defensive auras are awesome. Not just you but your whole party getting +5 to all saves, immunity to fear, and your choice of immunity to charm or resistance to all spell damage? Yes, please.

[toapat]

They might not get much in the way of defensive spells, but those defensive auras are awesome. Not just you but your whole party getting +5 to all saves, immunity to fear, and your choice of immunity to charm or resistance to all spell damage? Yes, please.

the thing is, a <type> gish tends to describe what the spellcasting is doing with the rest of the build, and by that measure Paladin this ed is basically Melee-Nukevoker, not a spell entombed knight like in third.

In other words, This Paladin is a Duskblade

[Anderlith]

Is a Fighter/Wizard going to strongly benefit if they used the Artificer rules?

As it stands I think a Fighter 2-5 Wizard 15-18 would be the best Gish. I'm not exactly a number cruncher but I think the investments & Wizard Spells would make this build preferable

[Easy_Lee]

Is a Fighter/Wizard going to strongly benefit if they used the Artificer rules?

As it stands I think a Fighter 2-5 Wizard 15-18 would be the best Gish. I'm not exactly a number cruncher but I think the investments & Wizard Spells would make this build preferable

I suspect that the bigger benefit to fighter EK/wizard would be to pick up battle magic from EK first, then go evoker and get INT to cantrip damage. That would be a pretty big spike in DPR for the build.

[CrusaderJoe]

Barbarian 6 or 8/ Lore Bard 14 or 12

Yes I'm aware you can't rage and cast spells. But when you are raging you don't need to cast spells. Besides you have reckless attack, you don't need rage all the time.

Start the fight with something like Vicious Mockery, reckless attack the next round, throw out blind/deafness, reckless attack, put haste on you and someone else.... You could be a beast with spells and with your Axe.

If you want a boom stick then replace bard with sorcerer, it works out nicely. Half elf might be the best race for this.

You even get to be the party face or a skill monkey if you want! And since you have reckless attack and won't be hitting Barb 20... You don't need to deal with getting your str high, you could keep it at 16 for most of your career and your effective modifier will be +8 (adv = +5).

HP won't matter much, you can heal yourself or grab some defensive spells. Boost that con save that you are proficient with and concentration spells won't be failing all that much.