Enlightened Spirit increasing invocation

[j_spencer93]

I don't understand the class not progressing invocations, would it change anything if i allowed it?

[Troacctid]

It does progress invocations in the sense that it gives you new invocations at appropriate levels--you just don't get to choose what they are.

[j_spencer93]

well i guess that is true, but still that hardly justifies ten levels for what it does give you.

[Vhaidara]

well i guess that is true, but still that hardly justifies ten levels for what it does give you.

Welcome to 90% of 3.5 Prestige Classes.

[j_spencer93]

lol that is true

[ZamielVanWeber]

It gestalts hilariously because of its progression of eldritch blast. Otherwise it is terrible.

[j_spencer93]

Well have a hellbred (new character not the same player that has done this before) that is going to take it and then hellfire warlock (oddly hellfire doesn't require evil) and he found it disappointing it didn't advance invocations.

[Troacctid]

Compare side by side with a normal Warlock.



Level
Warlock
Enlightened Spirit


6
Lesser invocation of your choice
Spirit blast (lesser blast essence), aura of courage, aura of menace


7
Eldritch blast +1d6, DR 2/cold iron
Eldritch blast +1d6, +1 AC


8
New lesser invocation
Celestial flight (lesser invocation you were going to take anyway)


9
Eldritch blast +1d6
Eldritch blast +1d6, tongues


10
New lesser invocation, energy resistance 5
New greater blast shape invocation, energy resistance 5


11
New greater invocation, eldritch blast +1d6, DR 3/cold iron
Eldritch blast +1d6, +2 AC


12
Imbue Item
Holy blast (greater invocation that is kinda lame)


13
New greater invocation, fiendish resilience 2
Eldritch blast +1d6


14
Eldritch blast +1d6
Transform magic (greater invocation that does the same thing as a lesser invocation)


15
New greater invocation, DR 4/cold iron
Eldritch blast +1d6, death ward, +3 AC



The first 4 levels are actually not that bad. You're locked into spirit blast as your first lesser, but your second lesser is celestial flight, which you were going to take anyway. And the aura of courage and tongues are both reasonably relevant. If you know you're going to be fighting undead, I think it's actually reasonable compared to straight Warlock. Then at level 5, you're locked into a blast shape, but it can be a greater blast shape, which takes some sting off at least. You're not really getting stiffed until level 6, where you lose out on an actual greater invocation, and it's all bad news from there.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

There's also the fact that you're losing caster levels taking the PrC, making it much easier for your invocations to be dispelled as you take more levels in it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Let me introduce you to the Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0), which ranks Enlightened Spirit at Down One Tier along with tons of other potentially cool prestige classes that just aren't mechanically strong enough to be worth considering on most characters.

[Red Fel]

It gestalts hilariously because of its progression of eldritch blast. Otherwise it is terrible.

Pretty much this.

A lot of PrCs fall into the "great in concept, rubbish in execution" trap. This one is no exception. A holy-oriented Warlock? Cool beans. Special class features that specifically hurt Evil Outsiders? Neat. Targeted dispel, scary aura, and death immunity? Classy.

Like many PrCs, ES trades off versatility for focus. The problem is that a Warlock's versatility, while by no means gamebreaking, is substantially greater than that of ES. ES basically takes away your ability to pick and choose invocations - and due to the lack of CL progression, to use them effectively - and trades it for a very narrow, very specific list of abilities which, when examined under laboratory conditions, are disappointingly lackluster.

But in gestalt? It is awesome sauce.

Now, as to your question: If you allowed ES to progress invocations, it would be strictly better than Warlock. Strictly. Why? Because Warlock's class features consist of invocations, EB, DR, and some utility powers. ES advances EB already, and provides some nice powers of its own; if you throw in Warlock invocation progression, the only thing ES really loses out on (other than a few utilities) is DR, which frankly isn't so hot.

Would it be gamebreaking? No. But it would basically upgrade from "it works in a build sometimes" to "why didn't you take this yesterday?"

[Vhaidara]

Would it be gamebreaking? No. But it would basically upgrade from "it works in a build sometimes" to "why didn't you take this yesterday?"

To be fair, the other Warlock PrC (Hellfire) is in this boat. It doesn't even have an alignment requirement. Sure, the Con damage means you can't spam it, but it's 3 levels that add a LOT of burst damage (Maximize SLA is great on locks, now you've added 36 damage with 3 levels)

[Red Fel]

To be fair, the other Warlock PrC (Hellfire) is in this boat. It doesn't even have an alignment requirement. Sure, the Con damage means you can't spam it, but it's 3 levels that add a LOT of burst damage (Maximize SLA is great on locks, now you've added 36 damage with 3 levels)

True enough. To a certain extent, HFW is seen almost as mandatory. Not as much of a tax as, say, Natural Spell on a Druid or Adaptive Style on a Swordsage, or as mandatory as PrCing out of Wizard or Cleric into the nearest full-caster-progression PrC ASAP, but pretty high up there. It's almost pure profit, assuming you can soak the Con damage; it's only a few levels, so it's barely a dent, and it progresses invoker level and EB, so you're not losing out. It's short, sweet, and doesn't hurt your progression.

Short version: To paraphrase Orwell, "HFW good, ES bad."

[j_spencer93]

i was thinking of letting it advance caster level (i worded this thread wrong). Would that be a problem? don't allow it to grant new invocations, instead you get those the class actually gives you, but still allow it to increase your caster level?

[nedz]

A 1 level dip into Enlightened Spirit might be alright, if you want Spirit blast etc.

It costs you 1/2 d6 EB, and delays a few other things, but gets you an extra Lesser.

[Chronos]

There are actually three PrCs designed for warlocks, not two: You're forgetting Eldritch Theurge, which does progress invocations (but doesn't give as much else).

And just having ES progress caster level (but not invocations) should certainly be OK. There's no good reason for it not to.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You will need to write in the caster level progression as just that. If you use the text from something like Eldritch Theurge it will double progress Eldritch Blast. Otherwise it makes no sense why it doesn't progress caster level.

[Troacctid]

There are actually three PrCs designed for warlocks, not two: You're forgetting Eldritch Theurge, which does progress invocations (but doesn't give as much else).

I'm surprised you'd call out Eldritch Theurge and not Eldritch Disciple. Also, as long as we're being thorough, let's not forget Demonbinder.

[j_spencer93]

Ok i will make it increase caster level but you get none of the other benefits of the class including eldritch blast progression

[Chronos]

I'm surprised you'd call out Eldritch Theurge and not Eldritch Disciple. Also, as long as we're being thorough, let's not forget Demonbinder.
That's because I got Eldritch Disciple and Enlightened Spirit mixed up, and forgot they were two different classes. And Demonbinder is designed to be compatible with Warlock, as is Mindbender, but neither of them actually requires it, and can work with other casting bases.

[j_spencer93]

baleful uttereance is required for demonbinder...so i would say it was made for them

[Chronos]

...And, that's yet another class I was getting mixed up-- I was thinking of Acolyte of the Skin. Though of course, it could also be confused with Fiendbinder or Nar Demonbinder.

Actually, Demonbinder (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) looks pretty potent.

[Troacctid]

Demonbinder is nifty if you're willing to invest in Cha. You lose a caster level, but the demonbinds you get are pretty cool. It's kind of like getting true seeing, gaseous form, and tongues as extra invocations--they're not at will, but they're situational enough that you don't necessarily need them to be "on" all the time, and they are all quite useful to have. Plus, if you can get an extra round to buff up before combat, you can boost your eldritch blast up with an extra effect in Vrock or Nalfeshnee mode (or Bebilith at lower levels), and even if you don't have that luxury, you can go into Marilith mode and still fire off an eldritch blast that round and start firing off two blasts on subsequent rounds.

Sadly, you do have to be a Drow, which is a pretty lame race, but at least you can avoid LA with (Deepwyrm) Half-Drow.

[nedz]

Demonbinder can also be viewed as a 1 level dip since it's binding ability is based off Class levels + Cha Mod. So, if you have reasonable Cha, one level gives you plenty of options.

[Troacctid]

You would still want to take more levels because your demonbinds have a daily use limit based on your class levels, and because it's full casting after the first level so there really isn't a reason not to take levels 2-10 after you've taken level 1.

[j_spencer93]

demonbinder is actually awesome, combined with hellfire warlock.