Help Me, DM Questions.

[Thatwarforged]

So I have been playing D&D and Pathfinder for seven years now but about a year ago I was put in as the GM, The first game I ran was D&D 4e for the group for about 8-10 sessions. After that the party wanted to try a game which they had more control of the character's build and more options for them to do so, so I switched the group over to Pathfinder. Which the party played a more stereotyped party of a Fighter, two Rogues, a Cleric and a Wizard. This going from 5th level to 14th Level, the party was disheartened when the Wizard and somewhat the Cleric started to pull crazy fix all kind of spells and the others felt like they weren't as useful with all the charm persons and summons started flying. So when I ran another game with the group everyone wanted to be a spellcaster and as such played them. This game was boring for me and only lasted for about four sessions before one of my group went off to a farther away College (He being the one to provide gaming space). So the groups plan was to convene in the summer and play a new campaign but the friend is coming in for the next weekend (Not this one) to visit his folks and to catch up and he wants to start the campaign then and play every so often when he comes to town. Caught of guard I have not thought of D&D stuff for the balancing the party bit, so right now I have been working on converting the Core martial classes and making some homebrew classes into Path of War and Tome of Battle Initiator classes (Yes I'm using both books, though not the ToB classes just discipline). I think this would be a nice way to sweeten the pot for anyone wanting to play martial. I also want to do a bit to Gimp Casters to not be so high, so I plan to nerf some spells or out right remove them then I thought how I actually wanted to use some ritual rules from 4e since I like the way those were done. So I found This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307778-The-Complete-Spell-Reformation) which is really nice for what I wanted to do with some minor adjustments.
So the first question is should I allow anyone wanting to pick up a feat (Ritual caster like the 4e feat) and skills to do the rituals to be able to do it or should I limit it to only spell casters?
The second questions is with this nerf and adjustments with spell casting (You don't have to read it all just know a lot spells get nerfed, while a couple like cure spells get buffed) keep up with the Martial characters or would it flop the balance to much?

Sorry about the amount in the intro this is part questions and part venting.

[Tommy_Dude]

My 2cp is on the Rituals bit. I always saw those as long, meticulous chants that anyone could do. Hence the reason you get cultists with warrior levels able to call up a demon in a module I had a long time ago. So I'd say let the rituals be taken by anybody.

[Callin]

Call it a low op game and restrict it to T3 or less.

[upho]

Call it a low op game and restrict it to T3 or less.This. By far the easiest and tried-and-tested method (besides perhaps level caps) IME. Though I'd add that you should also strongly recommend that no player base his/her PC on any class lower than T4 (1-5 level dips into T5s are usually OK/good, since they often allow for more character concepts to be viable, just allow them to get Favored Class bonuses from more than one class). It'll still give them tons of options, especially since the release of ACG and because you use PoW and ToB.

If you want to keep the full caster classes (and the Summoner), ie the T1-2s, there's no really easy fix AFAIK. I personally allow most of them in my T3 game, but they are limited to 6th level spells and no 4th level spells before they reach level 9. Meaning they have to multiclass, but I also allow them to gain in CL when doing so and have introduced a few homebrew PrCs tailored for their needs and wishes.

Though I'm impressed by the detail and scope of "Spell Reformation" system, I believe it would require a huge amount of work on the DM's (your) part to introduce it properly. And AFAICT it's not even remotely close to play tested enough to make it reasonably "safe" from weird unintended side-effects and balance issues.

If you find a different working solution you and your players are comfortable with, please let me know what it was!

[Thatwarforged]

If I find a good way of doing it I will tell you. Im thinking since I am already redoing the martial base class I might remake the casters with a spell cap of 6th like you suggested upho and giving better class features.

Though if I did use rituals and removed the more annoying spells based on the group would that fix it?

[upho]

If I find a good way of doing it I will tell you. Im thinking since I am already redoing the martial base class I might remake the casters with a spell cap of 6th like you suggested upho and giving better class features.My "formula" for full casters have been to introduce homebrew PrCs which follow approximately the same basic concept, inspired by existing casting and initiating PrCs:

at least 10 levels
access at 6th level, may require a certain relevant combat feat
3/4 BAB progression (+7 over 10 levels)
CL increase at every level, along with one or two other vital class features of the PC's starting full caster class (such as the scaling power (but not number) of a witch's hexes, a cleric's domain powers or channeling etc)
a slower progression on gaining additional uses and/or new versions of some of the above features (in my versions the witch PrC learns a new hex, and the cleric PrC gains an additional use of channeling, at PrC levels 3, 6 and 9)
increased casting (spells known and/or spells per day), as if gaining a level in the PC's starting full caster, at every even-numbered level
a limited access to maneuvers from two PoW disciplines, maybe three if limited to ranged (starting with 3 known, 2 readied and one stance, and ending with 8 known, 5 readied and 3 stances at minimum 15th character level, retraining starting at 4th PrC level and every second level thereafter, and max 6th level maneuvers)
IL = CL, initiation modifier based on casting stat
some limited action economy mechanism (allowing the PC to use a standard action maneuver and a standard action hex/spell/channeling as a full-round action, starting with quite severe limitations on possible targets, requiring hits to trigger, and/or weaker effects etc, but growing progressively less limited)
BAB equal to total character level when using the above to special combo, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to half initiation modifier at other times when using martial strikes
one or two bonus combat feats

The total effect is that the PC becomes a significantly weaker caster in higher levels, but as she retains a CL = total character level, she's still capable of using offensive spells. And while her other level-dependent class features are a bit more limited, the most important ones also retain their full functionality. This can be made to retain much of the feel of the original full caster class but in a gish version, like a 6/9 caster variant with limited maneuvers and some trademark features of the original full caster. The details of the PrC's I've made for this purpose have of course been highly dependent on the player's wishes and the story and setting. As the player and his/her PC should want to take the PrC, I wouldn't recommend to start working on a suggestion before having a good sense of where a PC is headed in the story, or more importantly before the player has had a chance to get a feel for how s/he'd like to see their PC develop.

Note also that unless you have more than 10 levels, some full casters who progress beyond 18th level will still also gain spells of levels higher than 6th, according to their class. This isn't yet really relevant in my game, though.

And I advice my players to stay away from the Summon lines of spells, mostly because they tend to slow down combat much more than other spells, and to a lesser extent because they're typically simply way more versatile and useful than other spells during most levels.


Though if I did use rituals and removed the more annoying spells based on the group would that fix it?I don't really know, as this is so dependent on which spells that would be removed and which ones that would become rituals and how those rituals would be designed. IME, there are two annoying things with higher level full casters, the first one being how they hog the spotlight and steal the show from the other party members, the second and often less problematic thing is how high level spells can completely circumvent or solve most challenges you put in front of the party. The first annoyance you'll likely be able to address somewhat with rituals accessible to everyone, although it does still result in quite a bunch of character concepts being strangely forced into learning rituals in order to remain viable in higher levels (unless maybe if you design plenty of rituals dependent on melee combat etc). I guess the second annoyance probably won't be affected much at all, judging by the fact that many of the strongest and potentially most game-breaking spells already require complex and time-consuming preparations and long casting times (simulacrum, planar binding etc.). But rituals sounds like a good idea even if you simply limit spells to 6th level.

[Thatwarforged]

Thanks upho but as of right now since I'm already overhauling the martial core classes (I include rogue and ranger here) to be initiators I've decided that I will overhaul the Wizard and Sorcerer class to be 6th level casters. Right now I have Wizard as a bit of Wizard + 3.5 Warlock (Eldritch blast kind of thing + Magic talents at even level to effect it) + Bardic spell progression and 3/4 Bab. I'm not sure what to do with Sorcerer though that feels sorcery and makes them function (I mean I will be utilizing bloodlines, since I think they are really cool but don't know what else).

The rituals will be some basic non combat spell that already had long duration or where useless as spells (Like magic mouth, Most divinations, Some comfort stuff (Tiny hut kinda things), Teleport (Minus greater), Plane shifts, Travel, Resurrection, Remove (Curse, Blindness, ect.) kind of effects. I like these so it allows without major spell list overhauls to still have some decent effects. These go to ninth level spells but not the insane ones like wish, and anyone can get them with a feat, long casting time and money (To scribe and to sacrifice in the spell) this also give casters the options to use their spell points in exchange for common money components but if a ritual calls for a specific material like raise dead which call for a 5000 gp diamond then you can't use Spell points. I'm just using the ritual list in the Spell reformation link I gave earlier. I will be implementing this on top of the Lowering of spells to just 6th level.

Also with most martial classes having up to 9th level maneuvers are they still balanced with 6th level spell progression?
What effect on my game would it have if I removed Druid and Cleric classes but fused some spells into the wizard and sorcerer spell list access (I.E mainly cure spells)?
Any classes I should watch out for after I do this Class overhaul? Right now the classes I'm not overhauling but keeping are Bard, Alchemist, Warpriest, Magus, Inquisitor, Warder and Warlord. I'm not using Psionics in my game because it does not make sense Setting wise. The classes I'm changing are Rogue, Fighter, Paladin, Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, Wizard and Sorcerer. As of righter now I'm looking over DSP Akashic mystery playtest and stuff and I like Vizier and Guru though Daevic don't have much of a place in the game setting so I'm going to do some homebrewing for a warrior like veil shaper.

The game I ran went okay but since I did not have everything done I told the group what I was going to be implementing during the summer and they were interested(Or so the group says anyway), Specially in the Initiator classes. Only one person was peaved at the nerf to casters (The one person who played in a different group before this). I will be allowing them to change characters or classes when we do come together again

So I would love to hear any suggestions.

Maybe I will make Sorcerers have access to higher level spell slots for metamagic and a pool to help reduce their cost? I kind of like this idea but I still want your guys opinions.

Yeah I've read to many horror stories to allow Simulacrum and planar binding to allow them and not expect a party to break it (Mainly the guy I mentioned early who was peaved about the caster nerf) so somethings still wont make a come back as rituals like said above one.

[unbutu]

@OP
Staying away voluntarly from T1-T2 seems easier, like it was said above. I'll simply add that a lot of people like it because it is more intuitive as well. Martial capabilities are things that are easier to imagine and relate to.

@Upho
Just curious: Do you spread the progession of 6 spell levels on 20 class levels ?

[upho]

Thanks upho but as of right now since I'm already overhauling the martial core classes (I include rogue and ranger here) to be initiators I've decided that I will overhaul the Wizard and Sorcerer class to be 6th level casters. Right now I have Wizard as a bit of Wizard + 3.5 Warlock (Eldritch blast kind of thing + Magic talents at even level to effect it) + Bardic spell progression and 3/4 Bab. I'm not sure what to do with Sorcerer though that feels sorcery and makes them function (I mean I will be utilizing bloodlines, since I think they are really cool but don't know what else).Hmm... Actually, I'm thinking it may be a better idea to turn the sorc into a semi-warlock, since they're typically more blaster-focused anyway. And simply ditch the wizards, or maybe give them some kind of more controller focused class abilities, don't have any good ideas about inspiration for this though...


Also with most martial classes having up to 9th level maneuvers are they still balanced with 6th level spell progression?Well, the full initiators have rather strong class features besides 9th level maneuvers, and they're very much "combat focused mid/low T3", in many ways comparable to alchemists, magi, bards, hunters, warpriests, inquisitors, skalds, and certain barbs, bloodragers and pallys etc. Maneuvers are generally not nearly as powerful as spells of the same level can be in the hands of a reasonably competent player, though I'd add that it's good to remember spells of one specific level of course include a lot more utility/out-of-combat stuff and a lot more variation power-wise, partially because there's just so damn many of them.


What effect on my game would it have if I removed Druid and Cleric classes but fused some spells into the wizard and sorcerer spell list access (I.E mainly cure spells)?That could work. I guess the biggest effect would be that choosing spells for the day would bring wizards an even greater headache. :smallsmile: I'd point out that witches already have access to healing spells, have a very good class feature beside spells, and gain a lot less spells per day, all of which makes them easier to adapt, IME.


Any classes I should watch out for after I do this Class overhaul?Throw in the already suitable skald, investigator and hunter. And maybe add some of the beta stuff from PoW Expanded. Especially the harbinger, perhaps some of the archetypes for Paizo classes, at least the disciplines Cursed Razor, Shattered Mirror, Piercing Thunder and Mithral Current, along with associated martial traditions and class templates would probably work fine as is. If you're not actually starting before summer, I'd throw in the whole book, with the exception of the psionic-related stuff as you're not using those. I'd also add Paizo's bloodrager (for a slightly more powerful and versatile archetype which has no problems to keep up with the initiators in combat, check out my wrathblood homebrew, link in my sig below).


Right now the classes I'm not overhauling but keeping are Bard, Alchemist, Warpriest, Magus, Inquisitor, Warder and Warlord. I'm not using Psionics in my game because it does not make sense Setting wise. The classes I'm changing are Rogue, Fighter, Paladin, Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, Wizard and Sorcerer.I don't really think there's any need to remake the barb, especially spell sunder beast totem builds are already at about the same combat capacity as the initiators. Same goes for pallys, especially with the Sacred Servant, Holy Tactician or Empyreal Knight archetypes.


Only one person was peaved at the nerf to casters (The one person who played in a different group before this).An actual caster supremacist? :smallbiggrin: Seriously though, I'd listen carefully to his (I'm assuming this person is male) objections and try hard to explain your reasons for the 6th level spell cap, and also give his PC what he wishes as far as possible (provided his wish isn't mostly "to give me a powertrip by being much more powerful than anyone else in the party and make every challenge a cakewalk", of course).


Maybe I will make Sorcerers have access to higher level spell slots for metamagic and a pool to help reduce their cost? I kind of like this idea but I still want your guys opinions.This might work, but takes some planning to avoid pushing their lower level casting down to too early levels.


Just curious: Do you spread the progession of 6 spell levels on 20 class levels ?Not really, since I've solved it mainly through 10 level PrCs with half progression speed, and a minimum CL 9 for 4th or higher level spells rule. Which means it's perfectly possible to get full caster progression during levels 1-5, for example. I believe most full casters would end up like a 6/9 caster with unusually quick early progression and typically more numerous spells per day (especially for lower level spells). This is intentional, since most full casters work fine in a powerful T3 party during earlier levels, and I wanted to preserve the option for more caster focused characters than the existing 6/9 casters allow.

[Thatwarforged]

Thank you Upho for the advice and comment. I will be doing some of the things you said like not to bother changing the Barb or the Pally. About the "Cast supremacist" I will have to ask him next time I see him (You were right he is male), but I think I know what it is (since I've known him for a long time and he started playing same time I did) in our first groups and many of the others we rarely ever went above 6th level (Not an E6 game either) and he never seen a high level Caster in action as he is only able to join in the group recently. To him the "balance" mechanism for casters is they usually suck then get better. He also has a hard time with system mastery always has, Him and I still crack jokes about how bad some of his characters are if he does not have someone holding his hand during creation plus he take 2 hours building a 1st level character (With no Backstory).

So I did lots of research today taking a break from the Homebrewing to clear my head and get ideas. That's when it hit me Fluff is not set in stone, I feel stupid about my early comments about Psionics and the Daevic. So I've found several post I think one here and several on other forums that folks like to use Psionics as the Magic of the world by refluffing it and the posts that I found some spoke of Psionics not having the mass Batman mage feel to it. Is that true because I might just use Psionics for my mage classes albeit with fluff mods, mainly names and psionics being magic. Psions being Wizards, Wilders being Sorcerer (Wild mages), Psychic warriors being Mystic Knights and Vitalist being Healers (If you have a better name that be awesome). Though please tell me if it has the same issues since I haven't read most of the Powers yet.

I had already planned on tacking onto the Magic classes like Bard a spell point pool since I feel that it has a more magic feel then "I have this many x level slots available to me today". So Psionics wont feel to much different from bard and inquisitor and stuff (Though alchemist keep spell slots since it is the potions they brewed not actual spells).