Would you win this fight?

[Dr TPK]

Here's your character: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx0NhN0o9JzxUWNSSEJTTGtJZkU/view?usp=sharing
Here's your opponent: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx0NhN0o9JzxZFRrY0NjeWxobGM/view?usp=sharing

The distance between you two would be 420 ft. It's a clear day in open plains. You both are fully aware of each other and have no hiding place.

You would be well-prepared for this fight, and you would be knowing what you're facing, but you would not have any called or summoned creatures when the fight starts (for some overly complicated religious reason).

Could you do it?

[Xerlith]

Assuming well-prepared means that I can also buy things for the money left, I'd run to a nearest Psion to PsyRef my Skill Focus feats into Power Attack, Leap Attack and Divine Might.
Then proceed to cast Rhino's Charge, charge+smite+power-attack with Leap Strike and Divine Might activated and vaporize the giant in a round.

Of course, I'd also buff myself to high heaven:
Divine Power, Divine Favor, Bull's Strength, Bless, Righteous Might
Knight Unburdened is a nifty Paladin spell that lets me ignore heavy armor speed penalties, so I'd probably use that too.


Aaand that's if I was feeling fair. The giant has no flight capabilities and abysmal ranged damage. Air Walk means I can hover around and throw spells around if I fancy so.

Basically, you're putting a 10th level caster against a 6th level one, meaning I have two more spell levels. And the spells that the Giant has put him as a Tier4 at best. So, yeah. I would win - the question is WHAT WAY would I choose.

[Fruchtkracher]

I love (note: sarcasm) how as soon as anyone posts something not optimised the first comment tends to be "Your built sucks, change this and that"

Nonetheless I'd put my money on the giant, as long as the Cleric has no means of flight.
Depends mostly on his spell list, which isn't added.
In my opinion.

[EyethatBinds]

I can't see the sheets, but yes. I would win.

[Dr TPK]

I love (note: sarcasm) how as soon as anyone posts something not optimised the first comment tends to be "Your built sucks, change this and that"

Nonetheless I'd put my money on the giant, as long as the Cleric has no means of flight.
Depends mostly on his spell list, which isn't added.
In my opinion.

Feel free to have any spells on the spell list you wish (that can go there by RAW, of course).

[Invader]

The cleric wins. 5th vs 3rds. It's not going to be a blow out and the sorc could still pull out a win here and there but if you run the fight a hundred times the cleric is going to win the majority.

[Xerlith]

With these spells? The sorcerer is a cakewalk for the cleric. By the means of Air Walk itself the cleric can be basically invulnerable to the giant's attacks, since the crossbow deals abysmal damage and Cleric could nuke the poor guy from above.

@Fruchtkracher, well, I certainly didn't say that. Only mentioned what I would do when given the resources mentioned in the OP. If you perceive this as stating that the build sucks, well, so be it.
But now that you invoked this, yes. The three Skill Focus feats are in this case a waste of a very scarce resource which is feats.

[Dr TPK]

With these spells? The sorcerer is a cakewalk for the cleric. By the means of Air Walk itself the cleric can be basically invulnerable to the giant's attacks, since the crossbow deals abysmal damage and Cleric could nuke the poor guy from above.

@Fruchtkracher, well, I certainly didn't say that. Only mentioned what I would do when given the resources mentioned in the OP. If you perceive this as stating that the build sucks, well, so be it.
But now that you invoked this, yes. The three Skill Focus feats are in this case a waste of a very scarce resource which is feats.

I thank you for the message, it was just great! Just what I needed... To be honest, I completely ignored the advice about the feats, but the rest of your message was awesome.

[Greenish]

51.800 gp yhteensä.Finn detected.

Do we get to choose the cleric's domains, or why aren't they listed?

[Dr TPK]

Finn detected.

Do we get to choose the cleric's domains, or why aren't they listed?

Domains are in the section that says "Domains".
http://i.imgur.com/roqbbpN.gif

[Aegis013]

Just repeating what others have said, but if we're well prepared for this fight as in having specifically chosen spells knowing the opponent and their capabilities, it's hands-down going to be the Cleric who comes out on top.

At that range, the Cleric can even afford to lose initiative. The Giant can't close into melee fast enough, so he either fires his crossbow or attacks with magic missile, either way the damage is relatively piddly. The Cleric casts Air Walk (PHB) and ascends out of melee reach, the Giant continues with crossbow or magic missiles, while the Cleric nukes him with spells that do damage (Diamond Spray (BoED), Flame Strike (PHB), etc), or if the Cleric wants to hang on to spell slots, maybe use spells that make the Giant unable to effectively fight back (Bestow Curse (PHB) or other will-save targeting encounter ending spells etc). Alternatively the Cleric can use spells that will do damage over time and just stay out of reach while those spells work their effects, such as Curtain of Light (BoED).

The Cleric just has lots of options and the Giant really doesn't.

[Sewercop]

Well.. You are already very skilled in diplomacy.

Fly up, protect yourself with spells, then talk him down

Divine insigh and guidance of the avatar for a sweet +35 extra to diplomacy and defeat him based on skill focus

[HunterOfJello]

If i get to choose the spells prepared, I could.

[Lerondiel]

Well.. You are already very skilled in diplomacy.

Fly up, protect yourself with spells, then talk him down

Divine insigh and guidance of the avatar for a sweet +35 extra to diplomacy and defeat him based on skill focus



Nice work. The whole scenario looks like a test of paying attention to whats on the character sheets. The giant's best spell is communication & the cleric/paladin beacon of talent is diplomacy.

Have a chat and walk away with the XP

[Sewercop]

Nice work. The whole scenario looks like a test of paying attention to whats on the character sheets. The giant's best spell is communication & the cleric/paladin beacon of talent is diplomacy.

Have a chat and walk away with the XP

Thanks.

To be honest, im a coward of a player. I think how I(my characters) best have a chance of survival. If I can avoid fighting and walk away with increased skill or power aka exp, ill take that option every time. Know to choose your battles.

The cleric in this scenario can win many ways really. Of course the giant might win, but his chances are tiny.
Btw he is kinda small for a giant, coming in at 4 feet

[Wacky89]

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew

Skill Focus (Diplomacy)

Skill Focus (Know Religion)

Skill Focus (Ride)

[JDL]

As others have pointed out, he has virtually no ranged attacks. Therefore you get airborne with Air Walk as soon as combat starts.

From there you want to cast Wind Wall to stop his crossbow ranged damage dead. Sit inside your personal windstorm and laugh as his bolts miss automatically.

Now you have a creature that has a massive fort save and gobs of hit points but no way to harm you. In turn, you have no great ability to deal damage with a weapon at range so you will be relying on your spells to save you from a stalemate.

Your enemy has 269 hp buffed. The question is how you intend to get through these successfully with ranged damage. It also has a fortitude save of +18, so you can reliably expect it will save vs. all fortitude saving throws. Reflex is low but spells that target this save usually do direct damage, thus Will save is your best bet for a "save-or-lose" win.

Looking at the list of options for you with up to level 5 spells as a cleric, your majority of ranged battle winning spells are fort save. There's precious little even in the Spell Compendium that would win you this battle with a good will save.

You can cast a maximum of 3 Flame Strikes against this enemy, each for 10d6 damage. We can safely assume he'll fail his DC 19 reflex throw vs. his +6 save mod 65% of the time. Thus if we take it to be that he'll save vs. one of the three Flame Strikes, you'd deal an average of 35 damage per failed save, and 17.5 damage for the successful save. Congratulations, you've taken out 87.5 hp out of the 269 using all three of your level 5 spells.

Level 4 spells next. You'll have spent one on Air Walk, so you have 3 plus a domain spell left. Assuming you use your domain for Holy Smite, his +10 will save vs. your DC 19 spell will be a 55% chance of saving. The spell deals 22.5 average damage on a failed save and half on a success, therefore statistically this spell would deal an average of 16.3 damage.

Now I don't know if your comment about summoned creatures was a blanket ban on the whole fight or if you just can't start with one already out, but the Summon Monster IV Lantern Archon is your best bet to get through his HP for this spell level. Each deals 1d6 damage per round for 10 rounds vs. his touch AC. That's a potential of 10d6 each summon with a +2 attack vs. AC 9, giving a 65% chance to hit. Therefore each is worth an average of 22.75 damage. Two of these mean you get through 45.5 hp of the giant.

So after burning all three level 5 spells and all five level 4 spells, we've done an average of 149.3 hp damage to the giant. He's still got just under 120 hp left and you're out of high level spells now.

At level 3 we have Searing Light. Ranged touch with your +11 BAB vs. his 9 AC means you hit 95% of the time. Five of these each for 5d8 mean 106.9 damage with 95% average. He's really badly wounded now!

At level 2 we're down to Sound Burst. 1d8 damage per cast no matter if he saves or not. Throw five of these at him for 22.5 damage.

Right now we've won! The giant is at statistically negative HP thanks to the power of horribly inaccurate mathematics.

Remember though, statistics teach us that the average person has one testicle and one ovary. The above is theoretical only. For example, it makes no adjustment for your enemy's actions. The Total Defense action for example would severely lower the amount of damage as more hits miss with the bonus to AC. You're getting very close to running out of spells, and poor rolls mean you'll end up short. However he's lost a lot of hp and you can still go down there and stick something pointy into him until he stops moving, so you're probably okay.

Edit: Yeah, looking at this again, it seems your best option is actually to fill your spell list with as many Searing Light spells as you can memorize aside from Wind Wall and Air Walk. Each does an average of 22.5 damage per hit, and with 1 being a miss and 20 being a crit that evens out to be roughly that much per casting. You have 13 spell slots you can put this into, 11 left after you prep the previous two spells for defense, and that would deal about 247.5 damage. So battle strategy is simply to fly up using Air Walk, defend against the crossbow using Wind Wall, then boost your attack roll with Divine Favor, Bless etc. and zap away with Searing Light.

[Coidzor]

OP: I'd recommend investigating the possibility of using Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)in stead of multiclassing between Cleric and Paladin to the player of the Cleric/Paladin, since at that proportion of levels combined with Cleric, Paladin is basically redundant.

The raw power of 10th level Cleric spellcasting generally outweighs what 6 levels of Sorcerer spellcasting or a Frost Giant's base RHD can bring to the table separately and there's poor synergy between Sorcerer HD and being a melee-focused Frost Giant.

The Frost Giant is wearing armor with an arcane spell failure despite presumably being able to afford armor without ASF, this is a notable faux pas on his part as a sorcerer.

Also, huh. I thought Frost Giants were either blue or white or vaguely icy-looking. :smallconfused:


Nonetheless I'd put my money on the giant, as long as the Cleric has no means of flight.
Depends mostly on his spell list, which isn't added.

A 10th level Cleric has no means of flight? Both Air Walk and Summon Monster will get him up into the sky before the Frost Giant can close with him.

Although the OP didn't say they were both standing on the ground at the start of the encounter, only that the surrounding terrain is plains, so the Cleric could Air Walk in, potentially.

[(Un)Inspired]

Is that Giant only 4'2"?

[Dr TPK]

It's a different sort of frost giant. Don't be so narrow-minded!

[Twilightwyrm]

My money would also be on the cleric, even without preparation. That sorcerer has a frankly abysmal selection of spells, and even if we assume the Sorcerer already has Bear's Endurance and Shield going, that really won't make that much difference. In this case I think the matter is less that the Cleric wins simply by having higher level spells available (wise spell selection could give the Cleric some problems), but rather than the Sorcerer's spells are terrible enough that the Sorcerer is really just a Frost Giant with a better Will save.

[Max Caysey]

I just wish to know why the frost giant is medium sized at below 5 feet in height? And... The cleric souls win 8 out of 10 times I would think!

[Jack_Simth]

My money would also be on the cleric, even without preparation. That sorcerer has a frankly abysmal selection of spells, and even if we assume the Sorcerer already has Bear's Endurance and Shield going, that really won't make that much difference. In this case I think the matter is less that the Cleric wins simply by having higher level spells available (wise spell selection could give the Cleric some problems), but rather than the Sorcerer's spells are terrible enough that the Sorcerer is really just a Frost Giant with a better Will save.

Yeah. The surprisingly small Giant (hit by Return to Nature a few times?) is pretty much toast if the Cleric prepares for the fight. If the cleric player scours books specifically for this encounter, then the surprisingly small giant is very much toast.

With better spell selection, the Giant has a fighting chance - trade out Tongues for Fly, say - but as is? Not so much. As many others have said: Air Walk + Wind Wall + well chosen Ranged attack spells = win for the Cleric. Spiritual Weapon would probably be a decent choice of spell for the cleric - 10 rounds of +15/+10/+5 at 1d8+3 each per 2nd level spell slot. As the Small Giant has an AC of 26 with Shield up, each casting averages 57.75 hp damage over the course of ten rounds (that's ignoring crits, so it'd be slightly more than that in practice - but how much more depends on the specific favoured weapon). The frost giant has at most 269 hp - five castings will likely do the job (although that would require a recast of Wind Wall at some point).

[Coidzor]

I just wish to know why the frost giant is medium sized at below 5 feet in height? And... The cleric souls win 8 out of 10 times I would think!

It explains the enmity between Dwarves and Giants when Giants can be mistaken for Dwarves, right?

[endur]

They are both CR 12, so as others mentioned it will come down to spells, equipment, etc., and it looks like the cleric has a better set of options. Or rather the Frost Giant is CR 12, and I'm not sure what CR a cleric 10/paladin 4 should be? maybe CR 14, maybe CR 12.

[Coidzor]

They are both CR 12, so as others mentioned it will come down to spells, equipment, etc., and it looks like the cleric has a better set of options. Or rather the Frost Giant is CR 12, and I'm not sure what CR a cleric 10/paladin 4 should be? maybe CR 14, maybe CR 12.

CR's largely irrelevant, really, once you've shrunken the Frost Giant to the size of a Dwarf, thrown on a bunch of non-associated levels, and thrown on Paladin levels of questionable value onto a Cleric.

[Melcar]

They are both CR 12, so as others mentioned it will come down to spells, equipment, etc., and it looks like the cleric has a better set of options. Or rather the Frost Giant is CR 12, and I'm not sure what CR a cleric 10/paladin 4 should be? maybe CR 14, maybe CR 12.

I would think that a level 14 assimar would be CR 15... yes?

[Dr TPK]

I would think that a level 14 assimar would be CR 15... yes?

Yes, that is correct.

[Lerondiel]

My money would also be on the cleric, even without preparation. That sorcerer has a frankly abysmal selection of spells, and even if we assume the Sorcerer already has Bear's Endurance and Shield going, that really won't make that much difference. In this case I think the matter is less that the Cleric wins simply by having higher level spells available (wise spell selection could give the Cleric some problems), but rather than the Sorcerer's spells are terrible enough that the Sorcerer is really just a Frost Giant with a better Will save.


Yes, there's not really any front the frost giant can win on. The giant has no real options but close & swing asap, giving away at least 4 rounds getting to him with a charge (presumably losing initiative with a -8 disadvantage) and that's more than enough for numerous simple options. If he stops to buff a round it just gets worse.

- zap it from orbit
- or just Moon Bolt it 6 times to get its strength down to 6 (avg) then bludgeon it.
- melee buff and annihilate

- or for a nice bit of humiliation: righteous might, divine power & balor nimbus (SC) to out-grapple him by +5 and do 6d6+50% fire damage per round

not bad for a diplomat who also burnt 4 levels just to get +8 to saves :)

[Coidzor]

Onjalf is 20 feet short of being able to sprint for two rounds and then charge on the third, so it takes him 4 rounds to get over to the Cleric at his fastest. With some preparation, a mount with 50 move speed would get him within 20 feet in 2 rounds of sprinting, letting him charge the final 20 feet on the third round. A mount with 60 move speed would be able to get adjacent in 2 rounds.

If he had an item of Expeditious Retreat and wasn't able to activate it beforehand, that'd give him 40 feet of movement on the first round and then he'd be able to run 280 feet the second, and charge the remainder on the third. If he had Expeditious Retreat up from the get-go, he'd be able to run 280 feet and then charge 140 feet the second round.

[Lerondiel]

Onjalf is 20 feet short of being able to sprint for two rounds and then charge on the third, so it takes him 4 rounds to get over to the Cleric at his fastest. With some preparation, a mount with 50 move speed would get him within 20 feet in 2 rounds of sprinting, letting him charge the final 20 feet on the third round. A mount with 60 move speed would be able to get adjacent in 2 rounds.

If he had an item of Expeditious Retreat and wasn't able to activate it beforehand, that'd give him 40 feet of movement on the first round and then he'd be able to run 280 feet the second, and charge the remainder on the third. If he had Expeditious Retreat up from the get-go, he'd be able to run 280 feet and then charge 140 feet the second round.

yup, but dont forget the cleric backs up every round too

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The giant wins, hands down:


1) Frost giant rock-throwing deals 2d6+9 at +14 attack roll (+1 racial bonus), with a ranged increment of 120 ft, max 600ft. Wind Wall is largely irrelevant and ammunition costs nothing (i.e. practically endless).

2) 99% of good Cleric offensive spells are close (touch), short (50 ft) and medium (200 ft) ranges. That's shorter range than the giant's thrown rocks by a considerable margin.

3) Buffs are irrelevant. If the cleric buffs, the giant keeps his distance until the buff runs out. The cleric can't both move 80 feet (the giant's double move) and cast a spell in a round thus the giant plays it safe for however long is needed.

4) The giant's tactic is to keep beyond medium spell distance and attack with rocks. He has 2.5 times the cleric's HP, 2x the cleric's ranged damage and they both have comparable AC/attack numbers. Some 40 rounds later, the cleric is dead unless he teleports away (if he can).

[Dr TPK]

The giant wins, hands down:


1) Frost giant rock-throwing deals 2d6+9 at +14 attack roll (+1 racial bonus), with a ranged increment of 120 ft, max 600ft. Wind Wall is largely irrelevant and ammunition costs nothing (i.e. practically endless).

2) 99% of good Cleric offensive spells are close (touch), short (50 ft) and medium (200 ft) ranges. That's shorter range than the giant's thrown rocks by a considerable margin.

3) Buffs are irrelevant. If the cleric buffs, the giant keeps his distance until the buff runs out. The cleric can't both move 80 feet (the giant's double move) and cast a spell in a round thus the giant plays it safe for however long is needed.

4) The giant's tactic is to keep beyond medium spell distance and attack with rocks. He has 2.5 times the cleric's HP, 2x the cleric's ranged damage and they both have comparable AC/attack numbers. Some 40 rounds later, the cleric is dead unless he teleports away (if he can).

It's true that the giant can use rocks even though it's not on the sheet. I just didn't want to bring that up because the counterargument would be very simple: "WHY ISN'T IT ON THE SHEET?!1"

[Riculf]

Use the impressive Diplomacy in a fight of words and ideas to convince the giant to convert to your deity.

[Coidzor]

The giant wins, hands down:

1) Frost giant rock-throwing deals 2d6+9 at +14 attack roll (+1 racial bonus), with a ranged increment of 120 ft, max 600ft. Wind Wall is largely irrelevant and ammunition costs nothing (i.e. practically endless).


It's true that the giant can use rocks even though it's not on the sheet. I just didn't want to bring that up because the counterargument would be very simple: "WHY ISN'T IT ON THE SHEET?!1"

So the giant has been shrunken down to Medium size and yet still retains the rock throwing ability despite it having been excluded from the sheet and that it shouldn't have rock throwing by RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm) as a Medium-sized creature? :smallconfused:

[JDL]

Yep, unless the size listed on the sheet is a typo the dwarf giant is a medium character, and by RAW can't throw rocks unless he sprouts up a bit. It doesn't say on the character sheet if he still has the cold subtype, which would be important to know since Flame Strike would deal 50% bonus damage.

[Sewercop]

If all comes down to technical stuff as usual... Lets figure out when they spot each other first perhaps?

[Lerondiel]

The giant wins, hands down:


1) Frost giant rock-throwing deals 2d6+9 at +14 attack roll (+1 racial bonus), with a ranged increment of 120 ft, max 600ft. Wind Wall is largely irrelevant and ammunition costs nothing (i.e. practically endless).

2) 99% of good Cleric offensive spells are close (touch), short (50 ft) and medium (200 ft) ranges. That's shorter range than the giant's thrown rocks by a considerable margin.

3) Buffs are irrelevant. If the cleric buffs, the giant keeps his distance until the buff runs out. The cleric can't both move 80 feet (the giant's double move) and cast a spell in a round thus the giant plays it safe for however long is needed.

4) The giant's tactic is to keep beyond medium spell distance and attack with rocks. He has 2.5 times the cleric's HP, 2x the cleric's ranged damage and they both have comparable AC/attack numbers. Some 40 rounds later, the cleric is dead unless he teleports away (if he can).


The range increments against that +14 attack don't have it hitting often and Moon Bolt is long range doing 3d4 Str damage (Fort for half) - 6 of those gets its strength below 6 on average and its rocks doing 2d6-3 and reduced encumbrance means it has to ditch everything but its armour and spear just to run away.