Have you noticed? (Roy v. Xykon)

[Shawnis]

Each time Roy would take a swing and hit Zykon,it would do little or no real damage. Is Zykon just that powerful? Or is Roy not as strong as we think?

[chionophile]

Roy hasn't hit Xykon yet. He's hit the dragon every time. Except maybe the last one, the angle is funny and it's hard to tell. Any damage from that swing will show up in their next strip. Why did you spell Xykon's name with a Z?

[Oxymoron]

Xykon has damage reduction. Roy needs a bludgeoning magic weapon to do some real damage.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Xykon has damage reduction. Roy needs a bludgeoning magic weapon to do some real damage.
Hm...

Roy is a level 13 (or so) power attack-equipped fighter wielding a +5 greatsword that deals extra damage against undead. The sword averages 12 damage per successful hit before factoring the additional undead damage, 1-1/2 times Roy's Strength bonus, and any bonus power attack damage (which is twice the penalty roy takes on the attack). If we assume the weapon is the equivalent of a +5 undead bane greatsword, we wind up with 21 plus Strength and Power Attack for damage per successful hit against undead. After applying Xykon's DR, we wind up with 6 + Strength and Power Attack. Even if he doesn't Power Attack, let's assume Roy was at least smart enough to build his strength up to 18, giving him an average of 12 damage per hit to Xykon.

Sure, that doesn't seem like much, but consider that Xykon has no Constitution modifier to his hit points. He gets only 6.5 hp per hit die. I'm not sure if we have any good idea of what level he is, but for the sake of argument, let's assume it's level 16. That would give him about 104 hp. If he were built according to PC rules, he'd have closer to 110. At 12 damage per hit, Roy would only have to successfully strike Xykon about 10 times. Giving him a 50% hit chance, that would take about 6 or 7 rounds.

And that's without power attacking. Unfortunately, Xykon is immune to criticals.

Xykon's tough, but it'd still take Roy less than a minute to take him apart. The lich better be doing something to defend himself. I doubt the Order will overlook the phylactery this time.

[Assassinfox]

Why did you spell Xykon's name with a Z?

Xykon took the Obscure Personal Truename feat, causing his deceptively simple name to be impossible for most people to spell. :smalltongue:

[Bluelantern]

He don't have flesh or blood, it is a little hard to tell well he is hurt =P

[factotum]

I'm not sure if we have any good idea of what level he is, but for the sake of argument, let's assume it's level 16. That would give him about 104 hp.

I think it's generally accepted that Xykon has to be at least level 18 to be able to cast the spells he's been seen to cast in the various comics, so he'll have a few more hit points than that. And, while Roy might well be able to take Xykon apart in a few rounds, that's assuming Xykon just sits there and takes the punishment without retaliating in any way...which is about as likely as me sprouting wings and flying to the Moon.

In the "reality" of D&D, a level 18 lich sorcerer would be classed as an impossible challenge for an entire party of level 13 adventurers, much less a single fighter of that level.

[the_tick_rules]

He don't have flesh or blood, it is a little hard to tell well he is hurt =P

True remember belkar's lament over undead not bleeding and being in pain when they get attacked. I'm uncertain if Xykon's Lich DR is being factored in this world, i think there would have been a comment, like roy's dad saying your not even using the right damage type kid!!! one thing is for sure, being an undead spellcaster he has LOW hp. So it won't take alot of hits. plus we don't know exactly what this green energy does. undead bane is way too mundane to be it, this is OOTS unique.

[StoryKeeper]

I agree with the idea that Xykon would not show signs of damage. According to the rules for undead, they don't have to reach -10 to die, they just hit zero and are destroyed. That means that they don't get disabled, and probably don't feel pain. And if you want ot get into real detail, a skeleton lacks a nervous system to give him a sense of pain. I can't remember what Libris Mortis said about the sense of pain, but I think it said that undead have only a vague one. In other words, he feels like he's on morphine as far as actual pain goes.

[Mewtarthio]

In the "reality" of D&D, a level 18 lich sorcerer would be classed as an impossible challenge for an entire party of level 13 adventurers, much less a single fighter of that level.

Also bear in mind that, in the first fight, Xykon did almost nothing. He triggered a Symbol of Pain against Haley and Elan (which, per RAW, would have been their before the battle, though Xykon appears to bend that rule a little) and Shattered Roy's sword. Prior to that, he was too busy enjoying the fight (and watching Elan in anticipation) to actually do anything against the Order; after that, he was too busy monologuing about the MitD to continue fighting Roy--and Roy threw him into the instant-no-save-death gate. In other words, the Order completely lucked out. Had Xykon actually wanted to kill them, they'd be dead. If Roy were to pose an actual threat to Xykon (eg Cause a significant amount of damage), Xykon will best him easily. As of right now, the lich hasn't really done much more than throw a Save-or-Die against Roy's strongest save, cast some other unidentified spell (possibly another Finger of Death that Roy saved against, or maybe an Enervation), and recovered his crown.

Not to say, of course, that the power of plot won't let Roy beat Xykon yet again, but I'd strongly bet against Xykon being destroyed in conventional combat.

[Lizard Lord]

I think the plan is to chop up the dragon, use the ring of jumping to jump off, and let Xykon plummet to his death.

Of course, there is the chance that Xykon has the flight spell.

[StoryKeeper]

I should hope a lich has invested enogh time and energy to get a flight spell. I mean, he's been around how many years? Of course, Xykon isn't the most... productive of liches so...

[Begle1]

When Xykon duelled Dorukan, I believe he was flying.

Of course, that was back in 2ed days, so who knows what version he would have.

Wait... Sorcerers didn't exist in 2ed days, did they...

[StoryKeeper]

I don't believe so.

[Caledonian]

I wonder if Rich's been reading Monte Cooke's works? Anti-undead weapons utilize green energy in them...

[Nightmarenny]

When Xykon duelled Dorukan, I believe he was flying.

Of course, that was back in 2ed days, so who knows what version he would have.

Wait... Sorcerers didn't exist in 2ed days, did they...It was third edition days.

[Mawhrin Skel]

one thing is for sure, being an undead spellcaster he has LOW hp.
Becoming a lich causes all HD to become d12s. He has a lot of HP from them, but no con bonus.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

[lord_khaine]

and btw we dont know IF the sword is undead bane, assuming a str of 18, he would do 2d6+11-15 per hit, +2 points per point spend on power attack, and with some unknown damage bonus from the green energy thats especaly harmfull to undeads.

but even so, we cant even be sure roy can hit him well enough on top of the dragon, to actualy start using power attack.

[Sky_Schemer]

And, while Roy might well be able to take Xykon apart in a few rounds, that's assuming Xykon just sits there and takes the punishment without retaliating in any way...which is about as likely as me sprouting wings and flying to the Moon.

True enough, though Xykon has already cast some number of spells before entering the fight, isn't in a position to cast spells with somatic components while flying that dragon, and overall is something of a sitting duck while Roy has Freedom of Movement.

That, and Xykon has a Wisdom score usually reserved for Belkar. ;)

So, it's not quite a slam-dunk. Still, I don't believe that this will end with Roy dropping him. Rich will trump the battle with plot in some manner. :)

[Fighteer]

In the first fight, Xykon was intentionally waiting for the PCs to trigger the gate. He didn't start serious spellcasting until after Haley stopped Elan from touching it. He also never, at any time, perceived the PCs as a real threat. (He still doesn't.)

He doesn't have to be casting spells at Roy either (finger of death notwithstanding). His basic melee/touch attack causes a decent helping of damage with a forced save vs. paralysis. Liches are nasty.

[Jade_Tarem]

I wonder if Rich's been reading Monte Cooke's works? Anti-undead weapons utilize green energy in them...

Actually, I think the Giant has been attributing certain colors of magic to certain characters, as I said a while ago in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38299&highlight=Xykon%27s+Attack+Haley) thread. The only exceptions to my list there are that necromancy seems to always be black and healing seems to always be white.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I think it's generally accepted that Xykon has to be at least level 18 to be able to cast the spells he's been seen to cast in the various comics...
I think I've heard that. But I don't really recall seeing him cast any 9th-level spells (or 9th-level equivalent post-metamagic), so I don't really know how accurate that is.


so he'll have a few more hit points than that...
We can expect about 13 more. But he coulda gotten lucky on the hp rolls and gotten a full extra 24. Or, through bad luck, only gotten an extra 2. Still not a lot for a CR 18-20 creature.


And, while Roy might well be able to take Xykon apart in a few rounds, that's assuming Xykon just sits there and takes the punishment without retaliating in any way...which is about as likely as me sprouting wings and flying to the Moon.
As has been said, Xykon isn't taking anyone seriously as a threat. He won't seriously fight back until he's really hurt. Which will be quite dangerous for him. But, yeah, once he does start fighting back, things will get pretty bad for Roy.


and btw we dont know IF the sword is undead bane...
But we do know it deals extra damage against undead, and the easist way to model that is with an undead bane weapon. Yeah, there is a certain amount of speculation in my post above, but it's not entirely unfounded.

[Finwe]

Let's say that Xykon has an AC of 25 - not bad for a high level caster.


Roy's BAB is around 13. He also gets a +5 bonus to hit from his sword, and (probably) has 18 str and greater weapon focus (greatsword).

That places his base attacks at +24/19/14. His damage (not including green effects) will be 2d6 + 5 (sword) + 4 (gws - assumed) +4 (str) = 21 (Avg). This becomes 6 with Xykon's DR, giving a total average of ~13.5 dmg per round.


Let's assume that Xykon is level 20. That puts his HP at ~130. If Roy were to take a -6 penalty on his attacks for power attack, he now has

+18/+13/+8 for attacks, and
2d6+27-15=17 damage per attack on average. This gives an average dmg per round of ~23. (If you'd like to do the math, you'll see that this is pretty much the optimal amount of power attack for Roy to use). That would let him kill Xykon in 6 rounds, 5 if he was lucky. Were his ancestral weapon a greataxe instead of a greatsword, he could smash Xykon in just two or three rounds (his optimal average damage would be over 50 per round).

[happyturtle]

I think the plan is to chop up the dragon, use the ring of jumping to jump off, and let Xykon plummet to his death.

Of course, there is the chance that Xykon has the flight spell.

What about ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html)? Won't that negate any falling damage? Or does it leave behind a body to get hurt? Can't really tell from the comic.

[Irenaeus]

I think I've heard that. But I don't really recall seeing him cast any 9th-level spells (or 9th-level equivalent post-metamagic), so I don't really know how accurate that is.


It's pretty accurate. In the bonus strips in On the Origin of PCs he use a Meteor Swarm against the dragon he is currently riding, making him at east level 18. In strip #373 he states that his forcecage should last "like a day and a half, give or take a few hours". Since forcecage lasts two hours per caster level, I'll say (like others before me) that Xykon is probably level 18, 19 or 20. He could be a higher level, but certainly not a lower one.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It's pretty accurate. In the bonus strips in On the Origin of PCs he use a Meteor Swarm against the dragon he is currently riding, making him at east level 18.
That'd do it. But I have yet to read On the Origin of PCs, so I certainly haven't seen that.


In strip #373 he states that his forcecage should last "like a day and a half, give or take a few hours". Since forcecage lasts two hours per caster level, I'll say (like others before me) that Xykon is probably level 18, 19 or 20. He could be a higher level, but certainly not a lower one.
He could be lower based on that statement. It is "give or take a few hours," after all.

But the meteor swarm does confirm the 18+ evaluation.

[my_evil_twin]

I should hope a lich has invested enogh time and energy to get a flight spell. I mean, he's been around how many years? Of course, Xykon isn't the most... productive of liches so...
At any rate, I'd put the odds of a spellcaster with a flying mount sing at least one spell slot for feather fall at one in a very small number.

[PsyBlade]

Xykon is a sorcerer, if he has feather fall, he can cast it as long as he has the spell slots for it. But a good question is, does he? I know he's been shown flying though, so that has a better chance of being known to him.

[Ariko]

Why did you spell Xykon's name with a Z?

well someone has to misspell Xykon's name in any thread he appears in. might as be at the start of the thread :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and its not in Origin that he kills the dragon by the way.

[Sky_Schemer]

It's pretty accurate. In the bonus strips in On the Origin of PCs

I believe you mean No Cure for the Paladin Blues.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Well, despite the hypebole and bloviage over how the whole Order wouldn't have a chance against X, it seems that roy has taken a coupd solid hits from him and is still stnading, maybe with help from durkon's blessings. I'm looking forward to seeing how x handles his first solid hit from roy's starmetal enhanced sword.

[Irenaeus]

I believe you mean No Cure for the Paladin Blues.

Thank you, yes. I was tired.

[ShiningTed]

Well, despite the hypebole and bloviage over how the whole Order wouldn't have a chance against X, it seems that roy has taken a coupd solid hits from him and is still standing, maybe with help from durkon's blessings. I'm looking forward to seeing how x handles his first solid hit from roy's starmetal enhanced sword.Yeah, definitely the Freedom of Movement spell and Roy's high Fortitude saving throws keeping him in the game. I'd suggest the last panel of the last comic they were in featured Roy landing a blow on Xykon though, and he did look put out by it, though he didn't actually look threatened.

[fangthane]

Let's say that Xykon has an AC of 25 - not bad for a high level caster.


Roy's BAB is around 13. He also gets a +5 bonus to hit from his sword, and (probably) has 18 str and greater weapon focus (greatsword).

That places his base attacks at +24/19/14. His damage (not including green effects) will be 2d6 + 5 (sword) + 4 (gws - assumed) +4 (str) = 21 (Avg). This becomes 6 with Xykon's DR, giving a total average of ~13.5 dmg per round.
Close, but no cigar. :) 2d6+5+4+6 = 22 average per hit (prior to DR); the D6's average 3.5 each, not 4, and strength bonus is multiplied by 1.5 for a two-hander. :smallbiggrin:
His odds of hitting are 95%, 75% and 50% respectively so his average per round is 7*(0.95+0.75+0.5)=7*2.2 = 15.4 damage


If Roy were to take a -6 penalty on his attacks for power attack, he now has

+18/+13/+8 for attacks, and
2d6+27-15=17 damage per attack on average. This gives an average dmg per round of ~23.

His damage would actually be 19 damage per attack average (7+5+4+6+12 less 15 DR) meaning he gets 19*(0.7+0.45+0.2)=19*1.35 = 25.65 average per round. +7 PA yields 25.2/round and it only drops for the next iterations, while +5 PA only yields 25.5 average damage per round.

[Fighteer]

The comics show Roy hitting Xykon at least twice with the green glow on his blade. Rich tends not to show multiple attacks for characters wielding only a single weapon (with the notable exception of Miko), and as far as I can see always shows Power Attack as a single blow. (I have a hard time mentally reconciling Power Attack with multiple attacks per round anyway, but that's just me.)

Also, it would appear that Xykon doesn't show damage in the way a mortal character does. Thus, we are left guessing how much actual damage he's taken, but it does seem like Roy's last hit (in the crown strip) made him at least pay attention a bit.

[Finwe]

Close, but no cigar. :) 2d6+5+4+6 = 22 average per hit (prior to DR); the D6's average 3.5 each, not 4, and strength bonus is multiplied by 1.5 for a two-hander. :smallbiggrin:
His odds of hitting are 95%, 75% and 50% respectively so his average per round is 7*(0.95+0.75+0.5)=7*2.2 = 15.4 damage



His damage would actually be 19 damage per attack average (7+5+4+6+12 less 15 DR) meaning he gets 19*(0.7+0.45+0.2)=19*1.35 = 25.65 average per round. +7 PA yields 25.2/round and it only drops for the next iterations, while +5 PA only yields 25.5 average damage per round.


Oh yeah, I always forget about the 1.5x str. Silly me.

[Bunch of Grapes]

For a couple of reasons, I believe Roy stands a better chance one on one with Xykon than many will give him credit for. Roy's sword has some ability that allows it to damage, either by bonuses or bypassing DR, some types of EVIL creatures, not just undead. In #297, the smith who reforged the sword informed Roy that the sword would "glow with a deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead." Then in #349, Roy uses the green ability to damage Sabine in their fight in Cliffport. So apparently, the sword does additional damage to more creatures than just undead. Which leads to another question, what type of ability is the green thing??

Since Sabine is an evil outsider and apparently vulnerable to starmetal, does this mean the sword is doing axiomatic damage?? I'm guessing that Sabine is CE and so is Xykon, so the only shared types of damage they would be vulnerable too would be holy and axiomatic. I just can't see how Roy's sword would be doing holy damage, unless Durkon or one of Shojo's clerics had a part in the reforging. It could be that Roy's sword is somehow lawfully aligned, doing extra damage to chaotic creatures, which would agree with Roy's alignment. But I don't understand why lawful damage would be "particularly harmful to undead" since there are many types of LE and NE undead as well as CE types. My guess is that Roy's sword has some special abilities either through multiple enhancements (like being lawful aligned and an undead bane weapon at the same time) or has some special ability unique to itself since it is an ancestral weapon or perhaps because the blade contains starmetal.

Secondly, I believe Roy has a much higher level than we give him credit for. I think Roy is at least a 16th level fighter. Wish I could remember the exact strip, but I think in Wooden Forest, Haley or Durkon makes a remark about banditry being a bad idea because the bandits might eventually "run into a 16th level fighter." If this is an off-hand comment about Roy, that would make him much more powerful than previously considered.

So in the end, we have a spell buffed 16th level fighter with a +5 greatsword with multiple enhancements/special ablities vs a lich capable of casting 9th level spells. While I'm not ready to say Roy could take out Xykon by himself at this point, I thinks the odds against are less than many thought.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Secondly, I believe Roy has a much higher level than we give him credit for. I think Roy is at least a 16th level fighter.
I've heard that the party as a whole was once publicly stated by Rich to be "around 12th level." I assume this was before the last comic where the order leveled up, as #427: They're Just Another Brick in the Wall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) indicates V to be at least 13th level. And V, if given the choice, would not waste magical power by requesting fewer subjects for the spells than the maximum allows. He/She is too anal retentive for that.

And, yes, V's level can be taken as an indicator of Roy's level. The entire order consistently levels up at the same time (though Belkar lags behind just a little bit for whatever reason), indicating that they are all the same level, because they are gaining XP at identical rates. Additionally, comments about the Order being about 12th level apply to the Order as a whole.

Haley's comment was just an off-hand example.

[Fighteer]

For a couple of reasons, I believe Roy stands a better chance one on one with Xykon than many will give him credit for. Roy's sword has some ability that allows it to damage, either by bonuses or bypassing DR, some types of EVIL creatures, not just undead. In #297, the smith who reforged the sword informed Roy that the sword would "glow with a deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead." Then in #349, Roy uses the green ability to damage Sabine in their fight in Cliffport. So apparently, the sword does additional damage to more creatures than just undead. Which leads to another question, what type of ability is the green thing??
We've been over this how many hundreds of times already?

The green glow is apparently triggered randomly, and/or based on Roy's state of mind when he swings the sword. Although it does extra damage to undead, it does NOT only trigger when he attacks an undead creature.

Sabine was NOT damaged by the green energy; she was merely surprised by its appearance. Roy's sword, being magic, was fully capable of penetrating her DR regardless of any other special properties it may have had.

His sword is a +5 greatsword that randomly inflicts bonus damage against undead. That's it. There is no need to read anything special into it.

We also know for certain that all the OotS are at or near 13th level. We know that Roy did not min-max his fighter build; thus while he may have above-average Strength, his Constitution is not particularly high. We know he doesn't wear heavy armor. We know he has Weapon Specialization with his greatsword. We also know that Xykon is a lich capable of casting at least one 9th level spell per day (meaning he's at least an 18th level sorceror).

The combination of all of these factors lets us guess at the relative capabilities of these two combatants, and the picture isn't very pretty for Roy. While he may be able to beat Xykon when you compare pure melee damage, Xykon has an insane number of "save or lose/die" abilities and spells. Sooner or later, Roy will fail a save, and then Durkon will have to find himself a 5000gp diamond to raise our favorite hero, unless some outside force or raw luck intervenes.

[Sky_Schemer]

Sabine was NOT damaged by the green energy; she was merely surprised by its appearance.

I don't agree with this conclusion. In #349 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html), her reaction in panel 6 looks more like pain to me, and in panel 7 she is sporting a nice, new scar. She also seems pretty pissed at more than just the green special effects.

[Maerok]

It would seem like it were some kind of Holy/Sacred weapon...

[Fighteer]

I don't agree with this conclusion. In #349 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html), her reaction in panel 6 looks more like pain to me, and in panel 7 she is sporting a nice, new scar. She also seems pretty pissed at more than just the green special effects.
That's because Roy hit her with his sword.

Actually, reading back to the original strip with the blacksmith, he doesn't say that the green energy only causes damage to undead. He said it is "particularly deadly to the undead". So it may cause some extra energy damage to anybody when it procs, but double or triple to undead.

[Sky_Schemer]

That's because Roy hit her with his sword.

Well, of course he did. But I doubt it was a coincidence that Rich drew the green effect and showed a big reaction from Sabine and gave her a much bigger scar than she'd received from previous hits.

[Mewtarthio]

That's because Roy hit her with his sword.

Note that she mentions the sword is damaging her before the green effect. It's possible Roy decided to Power Attack for the first time in the battle, but it's more likely that the green energy was responsible for her reaction.

[Fighteer]

In game statistics terms, the "green energy" is probably a +1d6 damage bonus to normal opponents that procs randomly, increasing to +2d6 or +3d6 versus undead. Thus, it does inflict some extra damage to Sabine, but she is not undead so it doesn't do the super bonus damage.