[3.5] Beguiler/Swashbuckler skillmonkey/gish?

[Thurbane]

Is it possible to build a combination skillmonkey/gish using only Swashbuckler and Beguiler as the base classes?

The challenge is to get 8th or 9th level spells, BAB +16, and as many skill points/level as possible.

This isn't an optimized build, just something I'm intrigued with. I know there are much better gish combos available.

Ideally would like to have 4 levels of Swashbuckler for INT to damage (which would mean max 8th level casting). Probably going the TWF fighting route with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and a pair of rapiers.

Cheers - T

[dextercorvia]

Insightful Strike (Int to damage) is at Swashbuckler 3, not 4, but that is enough alone to knock Beguiler down to 8th level spells.

You could try:

Beguiler1/Swashbuckler3/Beguiler+1/PrestigeBard2/AbjurantChampion3/SublimeChord2/AbjurantChamp+2/Spellsword1/Dragonslayer1/UnseenSeer4

Feats: Apprentice Performer, Combat Casting, Dodge

That gets:

BAB: 16
Spells: 9th
Skill Points: 8 levels 6+Int, 5 levels 4+Int, 7 levels 2+Int

Honestly, though, Bard makes a better Skillmonkey/Gish

[Xerlith]

Or, quite simpler, a Swashbuckler3/Beguiler2/Unseen Seer2/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight 6/Beguiler+2

17BAB, 8th level Beguiler spellcasting. Grabbing Arcane Disciple (War) seems to be a good choice, since you gain +3BAB and +4 Caster Level going that route.

You can also drop the 6 levels of Eldritch Knight in favour of two more in Unseen Seer and four levels of Sacred Exorcist. Then be an Illumian and persist the best buffs (Hint: War domain).

But overall, yeah. Seconding the Bard being a better skillmonkey/gish notion.

[Thurbane]

I suppose if I get it to 8th level casting I can always push it to 9th with that feat I can never remember the name of (sacrifice 2 spells to cast 1 level higher)...

[Xerlith]

Versatile Spellcaster. Yeah, you probably could do that.

[Denver]

Probably going the TWF fighting route with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and a pair of rapiers.

Cheers - T

Despite it being an exotic weapon - if you're already going to take the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat - the Elven Thinblade plays well into the Swashbuckler build. Plus, as you work up to it, any weapon related feats you take for the rapier would apply to the Elven sword as well, such as Improved Critical, due to the shared focus they both have. Plus, as the Elven blade can be used with Finesse, the Swashbuckler can still get INT to damage. Further, the Elven blade does allow you to put both hands on one weapon to get Strength-and-a-half, should that situation ever arise.

If you are thinking of high DEX and INT for this build (and it seems like you are), racially you might consider the Gray Elf. (And, if you do take the Gray Elf, you could grab Improved Racial Familiarity instead of just Exotic Weapon proficiency, which would allow your character to use the full gamut of marginal Elven weapons.) [Edit: Though, being able to use the Elven Doublebow would thematically fit into a Two-Weapon build; using it is essentially two-weapon fighting from afar.]

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Versatile Spellcaster is definitely a way to get 9th level spells from 8th level spell slots, but I honestly don't see any appeal to a build like this. Spellcasting and BAB does not make a gish, buffing spells do, and Beguiler just doesn't have them. Beguiler is one of those classes that can do nearly every one of the things if built right, but melee combat is not something that I can see it being good at. It can skillmonkey, it can be the primary arcane caster especially if it expands its spell list just a little bit, it can be the primary divine caster with Rainbow Servant, it can be a ranged attacker with Shadowcraft Mage, but it's not well suited to melee combat. To make a gish out of a Beguiler, you would probably need to use the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick, put non-Beguiler spells on it, and make a DC 21 UMD check to emulate a class spell list class feature when you attune yourself to it each day.

[Troacctid]

Swashbuckler is just sooo bad. I can't think of any point in the level progression where I would rather have 3 levels of Swashbuckler than 3 more levels of Beguiler. I think I would honestly rather have a +3 level adjustment--or even +4, Pixies are pretty nifty--than take Swashbuckler levels on a caster. They don't do anything.


I suppose if I get it to 8th level casting I can always push it to 9th with that feat I can never remember the name of (sacrifice 2 spells to cast 1 level higher)...

You could do that to metamagic spells up to 9th, but you wouldn't actually get any 9th level spells, because you can't use it to cast spells you don't know, and Beguilers don't know the spells on their list until they gain access to spells of that level.

[Thurbane]

You could do that to metamagic spells up to 9th, but you wouldn't actually get any 9th level spells, because you can't use it to cast spells you don't know, and Beguilers don't know the spells on their list until they gain access to spells of that level.

I've seen pretty compelling arguments that you do. Anyway, that's how we play it at my table.


...and yes, I realize that a Beguiler based gish with 3 levels of Swashbuckler is quite a sub-optimal build. :smallwink:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

After further consideration, this could totally work, but you wouldn't benefit at all from using Swashbuckler in the build.

Get Magical Training for a spellbook. You've already put spells into this spellbook, which means you're capable of putting spells into a spellbook and thus learning them. This is further confirmed by the Rules Compendium, which states that anyone who prepares spells from a spellbook (which you do, though they're only 0-level) can add more spells to their spellbook via the same methods that wizards use. Combine this with Versatile Spellcaster, which enables you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, which would include any spell you've put into that spellbook.

Include anything that enables you to add persistent spell to your spells, preferably Incantatrix or Spelldancer, but Naenhoon Illumian plus a Sacred Exorcist dip is sufficient despite only giving you two persistent spells per day.

Cast Thunderlance and make it persistent. You can even use Fell Drain and/or Fell Frighten with that. Put Greater Magic Weapon on it. You now use your Int bonus for attack and damage rolls, and can AoO out to a 20 ft. reach.

You should also use Persistent Wraithstrike, and always two-handed power attack for your full BAB. Other persistent spells to consider include Greater/Superior Invisibility, Glibness, and if you have Fell Drain/Frighten use them with Persistent Cloud of Knives, Death Armor, and Fire Shield twice.

For a build, go Beguiler 6/ Fighter 1/ Spellsword 1/ Spelldancer 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 6. That's 18/20 spellcasting and a +16 BAB, and with Able Learner and a high Int score your skills should be fine.

[ShurikVch]

Beguiler-Swashbuckler?
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ssouth_gallery/84366.jpg
I wanna see it! :smallbiggrin:
Oh, wait... Reepicheep (http://narnia.wikia.com/wiki/Reepicheep)!

[Flickerdart]

Since you're giving up nines anyway, how about some Swiftblade all up ins?