First time running E6

[EnnPeeCee]

I'm interested in running an E6 campaign for my group, but I've never actually used the E6 rules before. The rules for it seem simple enough from what I've read, the main thing I'm concerned about is game balance and what houserules to use.

Does anything go wildly out of balance in an E6 game? (at least more so than normal 3.5?) Mostly asking about player options like classes/races/feats that become over/under powered. Is there anything that should be banned from an E6 game? Our group is typically low optimization, so we have a pretty light ban list when we play.

Do any classes etc need to be adjusted for E6, or is it best to just run everything as written? Just looking at the core classes, Barbarian and Rogue both have very boring 6th levels, might be nice to make sure all classes have a nice 6th level capstone ability. Just wondering if anyone has put together adjusted classes for E6 already? Also, for PrCs, through my brief googling I found some rules for converting PrCs to be used in E6, any experience with this?

And lastly, any other houserules or variant rules that you would suggest using with E6? I'm thinking about trying the vitality/wound point system, and possibly also the armor as DR and classes based defense bonus rules.

[DEMON]

I'm interested in running an E6 campaign for my group, but I've never actually used the E6 rules before. The rules for it seem simple enough from what I've read, the main thing I'm concerned about is game balance and what houserules to use.

I personally prefer E6 to a standard game, but that's becouse I prefer a gritty fantasy, such as Conan or The Wither to the high fantasy of a high-level campaigns.

Unless someone is actively trying to break the game, I'd say E6 is fairly balanced (compared to standard 3.5), especially on the low-to-mid op level.

Just bear in mind that, if you're strict about it, many magic items are not generally available due to caster level requirements, which might be an issue for some players.

Also, Fighter is rather useless, unless stacking on ACFs, since his only "class feature" becomes moot after level 6. Luckily there's a few ACFs that can make him viable.

Oh, and Dread Necro, Warmage and Beguiler can get to 4th level spells via Versatile Spellcaster feat.


Do any classes etc need to be adjusted for E6, or is it best to just run everything as written? Just looking at the core classes, Barbarian and Rogue both have very boring 6th levels, might be nice to make sure all classes have a nice 6th level capstone ability.

There are the capstone feats for E6, that offer some goodies to 6th level characters of a particular class. But I tend to avoid going Rogue 6, or Barb 6 in E6, combining the former with a Swashbucker (or, at the very least a single level of Assassin) and the latter with a Warblade. That means I won't qualify for the capstone feats, but I feel the builds are better fleshed out that way.

[Calimehter]

Does anything go wildly out of balance in an E6 game? (at least more so than normal 3.5?)

Nah. Tier imbalances can still be a thing, of course, and there are a few nasty low level spells (Shivering Touch, Power Word Pain, Alter Self) that you might want to consider banning.


And lastly, any other houserules or variant rules that you would suggest using with E6? I'm thinking about trying the vitality/wound point system, and possibly also the armor as DR and classes based defense bonus rules.

I ran a VP/WP low-magic E6 game once, mostly to reduce the need for magical healing for each and every fight. I liked it, but the ever present threat of suffering a critical hit meant that entering combat was never a light decision. I don't know if it is needed or desired in a game in which healing magic is commonly available through spellcasters or items, especially if you want the PCs to seek out fights.

I've *only* ever run E6 with Generic Classes (low or standard magic) so I guess I'm recommending that. :) I've had a few more new players run through our group lately, though, and even our vets grew up used to the smaller number of classes in pre-3E, so I might be getting more mileage out of the simplification than some other groups would.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, ignore the E6 magic item list that's based only on the default caster levels of items. The DMG errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) made it so an item's default caster level is no longer a prerequisite for crafting it. That default caster level only ever comes into play when an item is discovered as loot. Any item created by PCs or NPCs uses the creator's caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel) instead of its printed caster level. Furthermore, creatures with racial spellcasting or spell-like abilities can take item creation feats and craft magic items that require a higher caster level than 6th. Just an Artificer can have caster level in excess of 6th level for item creation. Plus there's still the Midgard Dwarf in Frostburn, that can create any magic arms/armor, ring, or wondrous item, including epic items and artifacts. Powerful magical items would certainly be rare, but they could definitely still be present in an E6 setting.

Be careful of Kobold shenanigans and/or Versatile Spellcaster giving characters access to higher-than-3rd-level spells.

A Mystic Ranger 6 with the Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) ACF and Sword of the Arcane Order is basically the most powerful E6 character you can make. He still gets the Ranger chassis for BAB, HP, saves, and skills, can cast 0-3rd level Ranger and Wizard spells even when Wild Shaped thanks to Natural Spell, and can get Extra Wild Shape to be in the form of a Fleshraker dinosaur for up to 24 hours per day. Throw on the Trap Expert ACF and he's a one-man party.

[lsfreak]

Just looking at the core classes, Barbarian and Rogue both have very boring 6th levels, might be nice to make sure all classes have a nice 6th level capstone ability. Just wondering if anyone has put together adjusted classes for E6 already? Also, for PrCs, through my brief googling I found some rules for converting PrCs to be used in E6, any experience with this?

This has been a pet project of mine for some years now, but between other projects, utter lack of discipline in the face of no-work-needed video games, and no actual group, it hasn't gone much of anywhere. I don't know how active it is - I'm pretty sporadic on the forums now - but Gnorman has a whole set of E6-built classes in the Homebrew Forum, intended as a replacement for the normal classes. For prestige classes, I've toyed with turning them into feat chains, albeit with rather heavy alterations, but no actual rules for doing so (what little I've done is pretty heavily class-specific and can't be generalized).

[Monkeyknuckles]

This is from my own personal experience running E6 for the last year and a half:

1.) Be careful allowing races/templates that give sizeable stat increases, in E6 items that grant permanent stat bonuses cap out at +2 RAW, so races and templates that give large stat bonuses become disproportionately strong compared to normal DnD.

2.) Decide before you begin whether spells higher than lvl. 3 exist. I personally advise against them as they're the main reason higher level games get problematic to run. And any competent optimizer/user of google can get access to 9th level spells.

3.) Decide on an Optimization level you're comfortable DMing at and enforce it. Rocket tag is very doable in E6, especially since some builds that aren't normally possible until lvl 17+ due to feat availability start working at lvl 6. For example at level 6 it's not difficult to make a Scorching ray hit for 120 damage with a bit of feat stacking.

4.) Everything else I can think of atm are just specific examples of those three points.

5.) Oh and Psions with psionic body and vigor+share pain are virtually impossible to kill via hit point damage, ditto for crusaders.

Edit for additional information:

This campaign is any classes allowed, all books allowed except BoED,BoVD 1 trait, 2 flaws. Standard e6 point buy/LA rules +1 trait, 2 flaws. A few other rule tweaks and pathfinder system updates for quality of life improvements ( Skill system I'm looking at you) and to up the power level slightly.

The party consists of a Draconic Elven Swordsage, Dark Elan psychic Rogue, Draconic Half-orc Duskblade, Half Dragon Mystic Wildshape Ranger SotAO/warshaper, and occasionally a Half Giant Psion (Kineticist). ( I allow them to use feats to buy up to level 8 in non-prohibited class features). Example: The Ranger is level 6 and has spent his feats since then getting the fast healing, morphic weapons and morphic reach from the Warshaper class. Entire group is lvl6+12 atm.

P.S. Not to derail but I haven't turned up any campaign journals for E6, anyone know of a good one or a collection worth reading? Right now it feels like I'm the only one running it

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Race optimization is extremely significant in E6, especially considering how it handles level adjustment. Level adjustment reduces your starting point buy instead of increasing your ECL.

A Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie) is permanently invisible and can fly from 1st level, its +4 LA reduces its point buy to zero points, its ability scores are all 8 + racial adjustments. Its ability scores are Str 4, Dex 16, Con 8, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 14, it gets Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats, a few spell-like abilities (Dispel Magic, Entangle) at a caster level of 8th, and he can use that caster level to qualify for item creation feats and to fulfill prerequisites of crafting magic items. From what I've seen most Pixie characters end up being Warlocks.

A Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) Half-Goristro (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) get 0 point buy due to its +4 LA, all of his ability scores are 8 + racial adjustments. He's large size and has Str 28, Dex 6, Con 22, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 6, with +8 natural armor, DR, SR, energy resistances, and two natural slam attacks that deal damage as though they were two-handed weapons. Those two slams are both at his full BAB, which is significantly better than a 6th level character's iterative attack at -5, and he gets it at 1st level. With one level of Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) Barbarian and Power Attack, his full attack routine is 3 Slams at +8 each, for 2d6+18 each. Get a flaw for Cleave because he's almost guaranteed to drop something every round, plus he's large size and will probably get an AoO every round.

Don't allow the Half-Minotaur template from Dragon 313, or if you do allow it attach a higher level adjustment if it grants a size increase. The tier system for templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044) should give you some idea of what to watch out for, but Half-Minotaur is by far the worst offender.



This is from my own personal experience running E6 for the last year and a half:

1.) Be careful allowing races/templates that give sizeable stat increases, in E6 items that grant permanent stat bonuses cap out at +2 RAW, so races and templates that give large stat bonuses become disproportionately strong compared to normal DnD.

This is untrue. The last line of an item's description contains Detect Magic information; Item Caster Level; Prerequisites; Price. The item's caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel) is not a prerequisite for crafting it due to the DMG errata, and even if it was, there are ways of getting a caster level in excess of 6th. For example:

Headband of Intellect
Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, fox’s cunning; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6).

Detect Magic shows a result of Moderate Transmutation.

The item, when discovered as loot, has a caster level of 8th for its own saving throws, dispel checks against it, and level-based effects of spells it may produce. If one is created during play, it uses the creator's caster level instead of what's printed.

Its prerequisites are Craft Wondrous Item and Fox's Cunning. All three grades are equally difficult to craft, the only difference is time and cost. If you can make a +2 version, you can also make the +4 and +6 versions.

The price is self-explanatory. When crafting one you pay half the price in gold, and 1/25 the price in xp. You cannot spend so much xp that you would lose a (virtual) level, and in E6 the virtual levels are 5,000 xp each. That means an item would need to have a base price of 125,000 gp or more to be impossible to craft due to the xp cost always costing the creator a level. A +6 ability score item is well below that limit.

Even if an item has a caster level prerequisite >6, the Pixie above has a caster level of 8th at 1st level, and there are plenty of other ways (Artificer 6) to get a caster level above six as a 6th level character. The restricted item list for E6 is completely nonsensical, and only exists due to ignorance of the game rules.

[johnbragg]

The restricted item list for E6 is completely nonsensical, and only exists due to ignorance of the game rules.

I don't think he was ignorant of the item creation rules. I think he didn't like their RAW and rules-as-played implications. He didn't want them in the game, didn't like the Christmas Tree Effect, didn't like the power level implied by a plethora of

You're going in a different direction than most E6 fans. It sounds like you're having fun, and There Is No Badwrongfun, but I don't think it's fair to say that Ry didn't understand the item creation rules. (Or perhaps he did misunderstand, but wouldn't have given an antfart-in-a-turdstorm for the errata'd RAW.)

[EnnPeeCee]

Unless someone is actively trying to break the game, I'd say E6 is fairly balanced (compared to standard 3.5), especially on the low-to-mid op level.
That's what I was hoping for, that's good to hear.


There are the capstone feats for E6, that offer some goodies to 6th level characters of a particular class. But I tend to avoid going Rogue 6, or Barb 6 in E6, combining the former with a Swashbucker (or, at the very least a single level of Assassin) and the latter with a Warblade. That means I won't qualify for the capstone feats, but I feel the builds are better fleshed out that way.
Oh yeah, I forgot about those. I guess in one sense it would give incentive to multiclass if there are dead levels in some classes, something that my group tends to avoid. Although knowing my group, the would probably stick to one class anyway despite the dead level. Maybe if I get around to doing some adjusting I'll make sure every class gets nice things.


I've *only* ever run E6 with Generic Classes (low or standard magic) so I guess I'm recommending that. :) I've had a few more new players run through our group lately, though, and even our vets grew up used to the smaller number of classes in pre-3E, so I might be getting more mileage out of the simplification than some other groups would.
I'll have to take a look at that. I'm not sure it would be the best fit for my group to run it as is, since I have some players that are really attached to certain classes. But there might be some material from it that would be good to use.


This has been a pet project of mine for some years now, but between other projects, utter lack of discipline in the face of no-work-needed video games, and no actual group, it hasn't gone much of anywhere. I don't know how active it is - I'm pretty sporadic on the forums now - but Gnorman has a whole set of E6-built classes in the Homebrew Forum, intended as a replacement for the normal classes. For prestige classes, I've toyed with turning them into feat chains, albeit with rather heavy alterations, but no actual rules for doing so (what little I've done is pretty heavily class-specific and can't be generalized).
Thanks for the tip about Gnorman's post, I've found it and looked through it briefly, will definitely go over it more. I'm so tempted to start putting together my own set of custom classes, but I feel like I should hold myself back since I don't actually have any experience with E6.


1.) Be careful allowing races/templates that give sizeable stat increases, in E6 items that grant permanent stat bonuses cap out at +2 RAW, so races and templates that give large stat bonuses become disproportionately strong compared to normal DnD.

Race optimization is extremely significant in E6, especially considering how it handles level adjustment. Level adjustment reduces your starting point buy instead of increasing your ECL.
Ok that's good to know. I'll keep my eye on races and templates. Thankfully my group tends to stick to the PHB races, so this probably wont be an issue.

[johnbragg]

Oh yeah, I forgot about those. I guess in one sense it would give incentive to multiclass if there are dead levels in some classes, something that my group tends to avoid. Although knowing my group, the would probably stick to one class anyway despite the dead level. Maybe if I get around to doing some adjusting I'll make sure every class gets nice things.
.

Of the PHB classes, Rogue is the biggest question mark for having Nice Things at the capstone levels. Full BAB classes get extra attacks, full casters get 3rd level spells (at 5th or 6th doesn't matter so much.) Bard gets her Suggestion ability. Rogue 6 doesn't have the same sort of mic-drop difference from Rogue 3-4.

(Oh, and Monk, but if you give Monk full BAB, problem solved. Especially if you houserule that all attacks are at full BAB).