Super bow of dooooom! (Stupid range 3.5 bow)

[Zantaotes]

So, I was looking up some bow stuff for a player of mine (we play a bastardized 3.5/3.0/pathfinder/homebrew monster of mostly my friend and I's creation) and I came across this thread about the longest shot possible in 3.5

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?166182-Longest-shot-possible

Now, I almost commented on it, realized it was almost 5 years old, decided to look up the policy on thread necro (knowing it's frowned upon in most places) and sure enough, it is here, too. So here's my new post. Albeit completely un-necessary, and probably has some flawed math, F*** it, let's do this.

Starting with a Composite Greatbow [complete warrior] 130 ft

Now, assuming you're allowing the 3.0 rules that say range increments go up by 125% per each size category, and you somehow managed to use a colossal sized bow (via enlarges/strongarm bracers [magic item compendium] or some other tom-foolery)
that puts us at
162 for large, 203 for huge, 253 for gargantuan, and finally 317 for colossal [yes, I rounded down]

Now, assuming only the base and the Dragonbone[+20 feet] (Draconomicon) get multiplied, That puts us at 337 base.
Flight Arrows (Dragon 349) x1.25
Far Shot x1.5
and Distance Enchant x2
(this part confused me for a minute, but basically to add multiple multipliers that stack in 3.5, you just find out how much it modifies the base, so 1.25 is .25 more, making these total out to [1.25-1(base)=.25] [1.5-1=.5] [2-1=1] [.25+.5+1=1.75]
then you add it to the base, meaning your total multiplier is 2.75, sorry if this confuses you, just the only way I know how to explain it)
So total of 2.75, 337x2.75= 926.75
Add +20' for Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
Add +100' for Deepwood Sniper 10 (races of the wild)

And you have a total range increment of 1046.75, Now, I got a little generous here, and decided to make that 1050 for easier maths.

Cragtop Archer 4 (Races of Stone) Allows you to shoot out to 15 range increments. Bringing the total to 15750 ft.

But I didn't stop there. I wanted to know (as someone pointed out in the previous thread) how hard this thing hit. [And if we could hit the moon with it]

Now, I did a whole lot of conversions using a few different formulas, but basically decided to assume this was a completely closed system in which the only factors were the speed (and velocity) of the arrow, the draw force of the bow, and gravity. And Since this arrow is traveling at 2625 ft/s (assuming a round is 6 seconds), and the arrow weighs around .15 lbs (a quiver of arrows[20] weighs 3 lbs) it has a rough Kenetic energy on impact of 16, 100 ft lbs, or approximately 6 times the force of a 30-06 rifle under the same conditions.


Sadly, However. This is not enough to exceed Earth's escape velocity, even at the higher point we use for launching rockets and whatnot. (it would need to be travelling around mach 22, but we only got it to go around mach 2 [yes I realize 'ONLY' is a relative term, as this is an ARROW we are talking about traveling at OVER MACH FRIGGEN 2] I have no idea what the damage on such a force would be, if calculated proportionally, though)

Edit: I'm sorry, I should have clarified, Yes, I know this is bending the rules, No I, personally, would not allow this silliness in one of my games, This was just simply seeing a discussion on a 'dead' thread, and decided to run the figures with their own rule-set.

It is entirely possible to hit objects at infinite distances in 3.5, but this was simply me being bored and deciding to physics the 3-mile bow (and fix some erroneous math in the first thread)

If you think I missed anything, or would like me to physics out a bow/gun/whatever impact using a different set of rules, I can do that. (keep in mind there are a TON of variables, and this system excludes a lot of them, to be able to do the calculations, this is assuming the only forces acting on the bow are the draw, and gravity)

Thanks :3

[Curmudgeon]

Now, assuming you're allowing the 3.0 rules that say range increments go up by 125% per each size category ...
I don't think that's a reasonable assumption. The Arms and Equipment Guide rule to that effect (pages 4-5) was based on the D&D 3.0 weapon size system, and that system was discarded in the change to 3.5 rules.

[Andion Isurand]

I think a creature throwing a dagger appropriate to its size, should be able to throw it at least as far as it can attack using a melee reach weapon, before incurring any range penalties. In this case, the range increment for every ranged weapon would scale with the change in a creature's reach.

This would mean that that your composite greatbow with a range increment of 130 feet if made for use by a medium creature with a natural reach of 5 feet... would have a range increment of 780 feet if it were made for use by a tall colossal creature with a natural reach of 30 feet.

Meanwhile, for Tiny creatures....


Tiny Creatures with Reach Weapons (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a)
As noted earlier, using a reach weapon doubles your natural reach. If your natural reach is 0, your reach is still 0 when you wield a reach weapon. As a variant, allow Tiny creatures a reach of 5 feet when they use reach weapons.

So basically, the range increment for a tiny creature throwing an appropriate dagger would be 5 feet, and their composite greatbows would have a range increment of 65 feet.

[thethird]

Cragtop Archer 4 (Races of Stone) Allows you to shoot out to 15 range increments. Bringing the total to 15750 ft.

Why use Cragtop Archer?

Use an Eagle's Cry Bow (Dragon Magazine Compendium) it can shoot to 20 range increments.

Use those fred levels to get a psionic class and Extend Range. (Complete Psionics)

[Deophaun]

SAnd Since this arrow is traveling at 2625 ft/s (assuming a round is 6 seconds)...
Actually, in 3.5, arrows travel at an infinite speed, because as soon as it leaves the bow it deals damage (which is why you can't ready an action to step behind a tree after someone shoots at you but before the arrow hits).

[kalasulmar]

Cragtop Archer also gets Horizon Shot.

[Zantaotes]

I don't think that's a reasonable assumption. The Arms and Equipment Guide rule to that effect (pages 4-5) was based on the D&D 3.0 weapon size system, and that system was discarded in the change to 3.5 rules.

Oh I'm well aware of this, There was several debates spread across the old threads I found. I, personally, wouldn't allow this in my games, just using the cragtop archer/deepwood sniper is ludicrous enough for a scry n die build.

[Zantaotes]

I think a creature throwing a dagger appropriate to its size, should be able to throw it at least as far as it can attack using a melee reach weapon, before incurring any range penalties. In this case, the range increment for every ranged weapon would scale with the change in a creature's reach.

This would mean that that your composite greatbow with a range increment of 130 feet if made for use by a medium creature with a natural reach of 5 feet... would have a range increment of 780 feet if it were made for use by a tall colossal creature with a natural reach of 30 feet.

Meanwhile, for Tiny creatures....



So basically, the range increment for a tiny creature throwing an appropriate dagger would be 5 feet, and their composite greatbows would have a range increment of 65 feet.


This is another thing that's commonly discussed in range threads. It makes perfect sense, but the 3.5 system is so ingrained with 'Do it this way because we said so' that you'd have to re-write a whole bunch of things to have them work effectively (I don't remember what examples they use other than the stone and hill giant's thrown weapons) but if you're okay with scrapping the current system and writing a new one based on size, it is certainly more realistic and logical. (although still incomplete)

[Zantaotes]

Why use Cragtop Archer?

Use an Eagle's Cry Bow (Dragon Magazine Compendium) it can shoot to 20 range increments.

Use those fred levels to get a psionic class and Extend Range. (Complete Psionics)

DAMMIT! I don't wanna do the math again...

[Seerow]

As long as we're making questionable rules assumptions, why not add all of the flat bonuses before the multipliers? There's probably a much better RAW argument for RWM having its range bonus multiplied than there is for using 3.0 range multipliers in a post 3.5 build.



Also, 1 level of Martial Monk, pick up Distant Shot with your bonus feat. Get range increment NI with a single level.

[Zantaotes]

Actually, in 3.5, arrows travel at an infinite speed, because as soon as it leaves the bow it deals damage (which is why you can't ready an action to step behind a tree after someone shoots at you but before the arrow hits).


Once again, I know this, this was just a fun little 'what-if' I did because of an old thread. It was 3 am. xD

Really though. The fact that the arrow would HAVE to be traveling at above mach 2 in order for this arrow to reach is destination before the round was 'over' is really hilarious.

Just imagine a medium sized creature (Even a big one, let's say like a 6'8 human) or comparable creature, Pulling back this 20 ft tall-ish bow, angled upwards (since, you know, he can't even put it on the ground vertically) and drawing it back with all his weight, then releasing it, and he breaks the sound barrier from the arrow sliding off the end of the bow CRACK, the sound can be heard for hundreds, if not thousands of meters, because, you know, IT'S 6 TIMES LOUDER THAN A F***ING GUN, and then this arrow, more a blur at this point, really, arcs slightly up, and then succumbs to the will of gravity, and starts falling, but it doesn't just fall, it crashes through the air, splitting the air, really, as it comes thundering down on a single, unsuspecting kobold almost 3 miles away.....

[Zantaotes]

Cragtop Archer also gets Horizon Shot.

Yeah, there's a couple 'if you can see it, you can shoot it' Mechanics in 3.0/3.5 the original thread was ruling those out to exclude infinity as an option.

[Jormengand]

Truenamer 14 with a distant shot longbow can shoot anything he has line of effect to.

I don't see why you need to bother ruling out infinity as an option when it's far easier and better than anything else.

[Zantaotes]

As long as we're making questionable rules assumptions, why not add all of the flat bonuses before the multipliers? There's probably a much better RAW argument for RWM having its range bonus multiplied than there is for using 3.0 range multipliers in a post 3.5 build.



Also, 1 level of Martial Monk, pick up Distant Shot with your bonus feat. Get range increment NI with a single level.


Sure, but I wasn't the one making the rules calls on this particular thread, just calculating out IF those were how it worked. If a Dm really wants to let somebody shoot 3+ miles with a bow, they can run it like this.

Also, You wouldn't be much better off using the other rules, even assuming the only thing that gets multiplied is the base increment of the bow (I don't actually know if the material modifiers would be calculated) using magic/psionics you could actually get a much further range than what I calculated.
Not to mention the numerous 'if you can see it, you can shoot it' options in 3.5.
This was just a 'If you had a bow that could shoot 3 miles, how hard would physics say it would hit, and would it be fast enough to break the escape velocity of the earth?'

Honestly, most of my players thing they only have 3 range increments with ranged weapons unless I tell them they can make a shot (because I think shooting something at 300+ feet has way more variables than just whether or not you can see it, and d&d only accounts for that and cover), so I just make a judgement call as to whether or not it would be reasonable to even hit them with luck, and tell my player whether or not they can make the shot, and nobody's seemed to mind, like I said, bastardized rule set. (that mostly consists of 'we don't like that rule, we're gunna run it this way, somebody write it down in case it comes up again!' and running with whatever rules are in our book, and changing them if circumstances dictate, VERY flexible group, VERY flexible players)


Did you mean Distant shot? That's the epic feat... you know, pre-req 21st level and whatnot. If by some obscure RAW rule manipulation martial monk lets you do it at level 1....

[Zantaotes]

Truenamer 14 with a distant shot longbow can shoot anything he has line of effect to.

I don't see why you need to bother ruling out infinity as an option when it's far easier and better than anything else.


I was ruling out infinity for physics purposes. I was trying to calculate the impact force of the arrow fired from that bow, based on the velocity and weight of such a thing, shooting an infinite distance in 6 seconds means the bow has infinite potential energy. And therefore the arrow could, theoretically have infinite kinetic energy

Hello, ACTUALLY SUNDERING THE MOON.

[Lord Lemming]

I was ruling out infinity for physics purposes. I was trying to calculate the impact force of the arrow fired from that bow, based on the velocity and weight of such a thing, shooting an infinite distance in 6 seconds means the bow has infinite potential energy. And therefore the arrow could, theoretically have infinite kinetic energy

Hello, ACTUALLY SUNDERING THE MOON.

If I'm not mistaken, if you fired an arrow with infinite speed and infinite energy you wouldn't live long enough to see the moon's destruction, since all the air molecules floating around could never move out of the way of the arrow fast enough. So you've got an object with infinite speed running into what is effectively an unbreakable wall (the air molecules are incapable of moving, and matter cannot be destroyed, so it's close enough). Trying to imagine what happens at this point is fruitless, since physics break down when you're moving at a speed that is physically impossible, but if I had to hazard a guess I would say that infinite energy would be released from the point of contact. A blast wave of infinite energy, since it is impossible, would also cause the laws of physics to break down, but it would probably propagate outwards at the speed of light and reduce all matter it impacts to a state of existence unknown to us, effectively destroying it. Since black holes can also be formed from an enormous amount of energy, as well as matter; you might expect to find a continuously expanding black hole in the wake of the explosion, not that we have any way of knowing, and not that it would matter to anyone who gets hit with the blast wave in the first place.

In the end, then, you would have destroyed pretty much the entirety of the observable universe. Not the WHOLE universe, mind you, since while the speed of light is the fastest possible speed in the universe, in theory there are objects that are effectively traveling away from us at FTL speeds, since the universe is expanding and carrying them away in its wake, rather like a warp drive. But for every object that doesn't manage to get carried away at FTL speeds by universal expansion, the blast wave would eventually catch up and end its existence in a way that science has no way of predicting. Our best guess is that about ten sextillion, or 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars would be destroyed, since that's the estimate for the number of stars in the observable universe. Granted, this wouldn't happen all at once, since even with a blast wave traveling outward at the speed of light it would take tens of billions of years to reach the edge of the observable universe.

So think about that next time you aim your +5 Longbow of Icy Burst at some random kobold you spotted in a dungeon some time. :smallamused:

[Zantaotes]

If I'm not mistaken, if you fired an arrow with infinite speed and infinite energy you wouldn't live long enough to see the moon's destruction, since all the air molecules floating around could never move out of the way of the arrow fast enough. So you've got an object with infinite speed running into what is effectively an unbreakable wall (the air molecules are incapable of moving, and matter cannot be destroyed, so it's close enough). Trying to imagine what happens at this point is fruitless, since physics break down when you're moving at a speed that is physically impossible, but if I had to hazard a guess I would say that infinite energy would be released from the point of contact. A blast wave of infinite energy, since it is impossible, would also cause the laws of physics to break down, but it would probably propagate outwards at the speed of light and reduce all matter it impacts to a state of existence unknown to us, effectively destroying it. Since black holes can also be formed from an enormous amount of energy, as well as matter; you might expect to find a continuously expanding black hole in the wake of the explosion, not that we have any way of knowing, and not that it would matter to anyone who gets hit with the blast wave in the first place.

In the end, then, you would have destroyed pretty much the entirety of the observable universe. Not the WHOLE universe, mind you, since while the speed of light is the fastest possible speed in the universe, in theory there are objects that are effectively traveling away from us at FTL speeds, since the universe is expanding and carrying them away in its wake, rather like a warp drive. But for every object that doesn't manage to get carried away at FTL speeds by universal expansion, the blast wave would eventually catch up and end its existence in a way that science has no way of predicting. Our best guess is that about ten sextillion, or 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars would be destroyed, since that's the estimate for the number of stars in the observable universe. Granted, this wouldn't happen all at once, since even with a blast wave traveling outward at the speed of light it would take tens of billions of years to reach the edge of the observable universe.

So think about that next time you aim your +5 Longbow of Icy Burst at some random kobold you spotted in a dungeon some time. :smallamused:

You're my new favorite. Because physics. Really though, this is the exact reason I excluded infinity. Because a bow that can shoot infinite range instantaneously doesn't exactly have a formula for calculating impact...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unlimited (anywhere on the same plane within line of effect): Dragonwrought Kobold, Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot), Third Eye Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense).

[Zantaotes]

Unlimited (anywhere on the same plane within line of effect): Dragonwrought Kobold, Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot), Third Eye Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense).

Aaaand there's another one. xD

I excluded these for physics purposes, but good one for anyone looking for infinite distance. xD
(except distant shot is an epic feat)

[JustIgnoreMe]

Did you mean Distant shot? That's the epic feat... you know, pre-req 21st level and whatnot. If by some obscure RAW rule manipulation martial monk lets you do it at level 1....
I think I remember how the 'sploit goes... Something like "Fighters (who are Epic) can take Distant Shot as a Fighter Bonus Feat, therefore Distant Shot is on the Fighter Bonus Feat List, therefore Martial Monk 1 can take Distant Shot because it's on the list and I can ignore the pre-requisites, which are "Being Epic", so I win the game at Level 1!"

Yeah, I think it's nonsense too.

Edit to add: Dragonwrought Kobolds can, I think, legitimately take Epic Feats. Because Dragons. It is, however, an often argued-about interpretation of the rules.

[Zantaotes]

I think I remember how the 'sploit goes... Something like "Fighters (who are Epic) can take Distant Shot as a Fighter Bonus Feat, therefore Distant Shot is on the Fighter Bonus Feat List, therefore Martial Monk 1 can take Distant Shot because it's on the list and I can ignore the pre-requisites, which are "Being Epic", so I win the game at Level 1!"

Yeah, I think it's nonsense too.

*shrug* I figured it was something like that. There's lots of 'well, the rules weren't specific enough to say no.... so... IT WORKS!' in 3.5. So it doesn't surprise me, just most DMs will look at that, look at the player, and laugh.

[Jormengand]

If I'm not mistaken, if you fired an arrow with infinite speed and infinite energy you wouldn't live long enough to see the moon's destruction, since all the air molecules floating around could never move out of the way of the arrow fast enough. So you've got an object with infinite speed running into what is effectively an unbreakable wall (the air molecules are incapable of moving, and matter cannot be destroyed, so it's close enough). Trying to imagine what happens at this point is fruitless, since physics break down when you're moving at a speed that is physically impossible, but if I had to hazard a guess I would say that infinite energy would be released from the point of contact. A blast wave of infinite energy, since it is impossible, would also cause the laws of physics to break down, but it would probably propagate outwards at the speed of light and reduce all matter it impacts to a state of existence unknown to us, effectively destroying it. Since black holes can also be formed from an enormous amount of energy, as well as matter; you might expect to find a continuously expanding black hole in the wake of the explosion, not that we have any way of knowing, and not that it would matter to anyone who gets hit with the blast wave in the first place.

This (http://what-if.xkcd.com/1/) would happen.

[Zantaotes]

This (http://what-if.xkcd.com/1/) would happen.

A careful reading of official Major League Baseball Rule 6.08(b) suggests that in this situation, the batter would be considered "hit by pitch", and would be eligible to advance to first base.

I died.

[Lord Lemming]

This (http://what-if.xkcd.com/1/) would happen.

Ah, but this scenario takes place with the baseball traveling at .9c, which is a theoretically possible speed for a baseball to travel. At this point, the laws of physics still apply, since we're dealing with a finite speed and finite energy, and therefore a finite explosion. But the arrow aimed at the kobold impacts instantly, which means that it has infinite speed, infinite energy, and no regard for the laws of physics. :smallcool::smallwink:

[Zantaotes]

Ah, but this scenario takes place with the baseball traveling at .9c, which is a theoretically possible speed for a baseball to travel. At this point, the laws of physics still apply, since we're dealing with a finite speed and finite energy, and therefore a finite explosion. But the arrow aimed at the kobold impacts instantly, which means that it has infinite speed, infinite energy, and no regard for the laws of physics. :smallcool::smallwink:

Yes, but it is the effect of air being unable to move out of the way fast enough you were describing, just on a larger scale. An infinitely larger scale, to be precise....

[Deophaun]

An infinitely larger scale, to be precise....

No. Infinity.0000 is being precise. To four decimal places.