Star Wars: Legal status of clones during the Old Republic

[Clistenes]

This is something that has been bugging me for some time.

We know that before the Clone Wars slavery was illegal and cloning was legal.
We know that after the Clone Wars slavery was legalized but cloning was restricted (to avoid the creation of clone armies).

So, how come the Kaminoans were creating and selling clones? How come they could sell shovel-handed miners to the businessmen of Subterrel and clone soldiers to mercenary companies? How come nobody called foul when the Great Clone Army was created?

Were clones considered property during the Republic? Could you buy and sell them without breaking the law, or is it a plothole?

Thank you for your answers.

[Nemirthel]

Kamino and most of their clients were outside the Republic, so they didn't have to follow Republic laws. I'm not entirely sure about the Republic army, but I get the impression that the Senate passed a law that essentially drafted all of those clones.

[pendell]

So far as I can tell from the films and the Republic Commando novels, clones in the Old Republic were property, essentially treated as a form of organic droid. Sorry I don't have a cite for that -- it's just looking at the reaction of Obi-Wan and the Council to the clones on Kamino. Certainly no one in the Republic seems very exercised about clone rights -- or droid rights for that matter. Yoda doesn't seem to hesitate at all about simply grabbing the army on Kamino and using it on Geonosis, as if they were a shipment of battle droids.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Clistenes]

Kamino and most of their clients were outside the Republic, so they didn't have to follow Republic laws. I'm not entirely sure about the Republic army, but I get the impression that the Senate passed a law that essentially drafted all of those clones.

It makes sense. The Subterral Sector was never part of the Republic, was it? As for the Clone Army, they were commisioned, cloned, trained and sold on Kamino, which isn't part of the Republic. And what happens on Kamino stays on Kamino...doesn't it?

I guess they treated the Clone Army as a Kaminoan mercenary company hired to fight for the Republic. And later, after the law to create the Grand Army of the Republic had been passed, they probably included an addendum saying something like "the Kaminoan Clone Company will be assimilated into the GAR; its members must sign as regular soldiers of the army or be dismissed". They all knew that the clones were slaves conditioned to serve the Republic, but the conditioning had happened on Kamino too, so it wasn't their problem...they had arrived to the Republic and signed as soldiers on their own free will, don't they? Then, who cares what happened on Kamino before?

Hypocrites.


So far as I can tell from the films and the Republic Commando novels, clones in the Old Republic were property, essentially treated as a form of organic droid. Sorry I don't have a cite for that -- it's just looking at the reaction of Obi-Wan and the Council to the clones on Kamino. Certainly no one in the Republic seems very exercised about clone rights -- or droid rights for that matter. Yoda doesn't seem to hesitate at all about simply grabbing the army on Kamino and using it on Geonosis, as if they were a shipment of battle droids.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Why weren't clone servants more prevalent, then? You could legally get Wookie, Gamorrean or Coynite soldiers and bodyguards, Bith, Gavin and Siniteen mathematicians, Bith and Ortolan musicians, Theelin singers, Twi'lek dancers, Zeltron courtesans...etc.

[Landis963]

Why weren't clone servants more prevalent, then? You could legally get Wookie, Gamorrean or Coynite soldiers and bodyguards, Bith, Gavin and Siniteen mathematicians, Bith and Ortolan musicians, Theelin singers, Twi'lek dancers, Zeltron courtesans...etc.

Maybe a nature/nurture sort of thing? Training and conditioning doesn't pay for itself you know. Besides, if I had any say in the Twi'lek/Wookiee/Bith/what have you government(s), I'd make Kamino pay through the nose before they got within a mile of any genetic sample of any of "my" people. Plus backup heirs in perpetuity at a bare minimum.

[GAThraawn]

Generally speaking, cloning is a lot more expensive and a lot more work than building a droid. Those clone soldiers took ten years to develop, and would have cost a fortune, and for what? Sure, they're better trained than mercenaries, and more loyal (basically slightly better in every way), but you can't exactly put an order in when you need a fighting force and then just wait for ten years. Even if cloning and owning close had been legal in the Old Republic (and lets be honest, if cloning was economically viable and significantly better than the way things ran, do you honestly think the senate wouldn't have found some way to justify legalizing it?), I can't imagine it would have been a super popular service.

Also, once the army had been created, sanctioned or otherwise, what was the Republic going to do? Sure, the whole free will issue was sticky, but whatever the reason, the clones now existed and wanted to fight for the Republic.

[pendell]

but whatever the reason, the clones now existed and wanted to fight for the Republic.


Did they really? People less than ten years old who've grown up in a restricted environment and fed nothing but military propaganda their whole lives? That's a choice?

First of all , we're assuming they had any kind of choice. In the Republic Commando novels, they didn't. They were treated as a product, bought and sold. They could not 'desert', because they had taken no oath of allegiance. They could not crab about the pay, because they weren't paid. They were given only what they needed to carry out their mission. Nothing more and nothing less. Any clone that failed to meet the Kaminoans specifications would be 'reconditioned', which in most instances meant 'terminated'. There were stories of a clone turning in a marksmanship of less than ninety percent and the entire company disappeared, never heard from again.

Clones who grew up on Kamino learned to be outwardly compliant, obedient, and to shut up. Those who didn't learn this lesson in a hurry didn't last long.

Most of them didn't think about it, because they had no options. In the RC novels, only a small select group of them are able to get away from their barracks , with the connivance of their instructors, and have a night on the town, or have a relationship with a Republic civilian that isn't official or involve shooting someone, or have non-regulation food.

Those that experienced even a tiny bit of the life an ordinary Coruscanti had, the immense things the galaxy had to offer, developed a great deal of resentment at the lot they'd been given. And so an 'underground railroad' of sorts was created for clones who wanted more out of life than to shot and be shot at, then to be recycled as involuntary organ donors once wounded beyond fighting ability. The Republic Senate did feel some guilt, and so compassionate centers were set up for veterans to live out their days, but it was only a few clones who lived long enough, unwounded, to take advantage of those facilities.

And those that did .. rapid aging sets in after about age 20 or so, at a geometric rate . A clone that is 10 chronologically is 20 physically, but a 20-year old clone is considerably older than 40 physically, and it's worse if they've been living a stressful life full of combat, which of course they had.

That's why one of the subplots of the RC novels is a desperate attempt by the underground railroad to find some geneticists who can alter the genetic code to give them longer lives. It's not something the Kaminoans thought of or cared about ;long life wasn't in the requirements, so they didn't build it in. Instead they sacrificed it in order to meet the other goals.

I haven't seen anything anywhere else in the EU that contradicts that.

But then, it's no great surprise that the Republic is like that , is it? Droids are intelligent and capable of self-awareness in this universe, and that means they are mem-wiped on a regular basis in order to keep them complaint little servants . With few exceptions (such as R2D2 and C3PO), they are never allowed to learn, or grow, or develop ... they're simply reset back to zero so they can be good little boxes and tools without thoughts or feelings of their own , despite their capability otherwise.

Aliens didn't get much better treatment. While high human culture (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Human_High_Culture) didn't really kick off until the Empire, I can't believe such an institution could grow from nothing; instead, Palpatine was already capitalizing on deep-seated speciesism among Coruscant-descended humans. Not for nothing was pretty much the entire Confederacy composed of aliens and robots -- quite aside from the Sith Lord running the Republic, the Republic wasn't good to the vast majority of the galaxy which wasn't Core world human.

So when Obi-Wan Kenobi was musing about the Old Republic in the first movie, I have to conclude he was viewing it through the eyes of relative privilege. The Old Republic may have seemed like a golden age to someone born naturally to human parents. If you're an alien or a clone or a droid, the picture isn't nearly so rosy. The only good thing you can say about the Old Republic is that, from that vantage point, the Empire is worse in every possible way.

Although, come to think of it, Kenobi's own lot was only relatively privileged compared to the rest of the galaxy. Taken from his parents at an early age and living his entire life being indoctrinated in a monastic order, then being sent out with a lightsaber to settle quarrels not his own -- there's a pretty good case to be made that life in the Jedi itself was something of a prison sentence, given for no other reason than burgeoning force-sensitivity.

So there's a lot of inequity in the Old Republic, and a tremendous number of intelligent beings receive reduced civil rights or are flat-out treated like appliances without worthwhile thoughts or feelings of their own. Against such a backdrop, clones having no rights is no surprise.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

Even if you leave aside the Republic Commando novels, TCW has both Kaminoans and Jedi Masters like Shaak Ti, refer to the clones as "property".

In the AOTC novelization Obi-Wan is very troubled by the whole issue - but he keeps his mouth shut around the Kaminoans.


Obi-Wan stared at the closest embryo, floating contentedly in its fluid, curled and with its little thumb stuck in its mouth. In ten short years, that tiny creature, that tiny man, would be a soldier, killing and, likely, soon enough killed.
He shuddered and looked to his Kaminoan guide.
"Come," Lama Su bade him, walking along the corridor.
...
"Would you care to inspect the final product now?" the Prime Minister asked, and Obi-Wan could hear excitement in his voice. Clearly he was proud of this accomplishment. "I would like your approval before you take delivery."
The callousness of it all stuck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final product. These were living beings they were talking about. Living and breathing and thinking. To create clones for such a singular purpose, under such conditions, even stealing half their childhood for efficiency, assaulted his sense of right and wrong, and the fact that a Jedi Master had began all this was almost too much for him to digest.
...
The Jedi watched in amazement as clones climbed up into those tubes and settled into place, closing their eyes and going to sleep.
"Very disciplined," he remarked.
"That is the key," Lama Su replied. "Disciplined, and yet with the ability to think creatively. It is a mighty combination. Sifo-Dyas explained to us the Jedi aversion to leading droids. He told us Jedi could only command an army of life-forms."
And you wanted a Jedi as host? Obi-Wan thought, but he did not say it aloud. He took a deep breath, wondering how Master Sifo-Dyas, how any Jedi, could have so willingly and unilaterally crossed the line to create any army of clones. Obi-Wan realised that he had to suppress his need for a direct answer to that right now, and simply listen and observe, gather as much information as he could so that he and the Jedi Council might sort it out.

[Clistenes]

Maybe a nature/nurture sort of thing? Training and conditioning doesn't pay for itself you know. Besides, if I had any say in the Twi'lek/Wookiee/Bith/what have you government(s), I'd make Kamino pay through the nose before they got within a mile of any genetic sample of any of "my" people. Plus backup heirs in perpetuity at a bare minimum.

Clones can be grown in a year in the SW universe using Spaarti tech, and their skills and personality can be downloaded using Flash Training. You get crappy soldiers that way, but the seller or the buyer can still give them some traditional training afterwards to make them better.

As for the Wookies, Bith and others not letting the Kaminoans get their DNA, they could be tricked. You could even get samples from several individuals and mix the genome so the clones aren't just copies (and hence, making more difficult for them to notice that those are their clones).

[Landis963]

Clones can be grown in a year in the SW universe using Spaarti tech, and their skills and personality can be downloaded using Flash Training. You get crappy soldiers that way, but the seller or the buyer can still give them some traditional training afterwards to make them better.

As for the Wookies, Bith and others not letting the Kaminoans get their DNA, they could be tricked. You could even get samples from several individuals and mix the genome so the clones aren't just copies (and hence, making more difficult for them to notice that those are their clones).

I've been following the Thrawn book read-throughs in a couple of other threads (Thrawn Trilogy here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385881-Let-s-ALL-Read-The-Thrawn-Trilogy) and Hand of Thrawn duology here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395437-Let-s-ALL-Read-The-Hand-of-Thrawn-SPOILERS-AHOY)), and as far as I can tell, Spaarti cloning tech sucks. They degenerate even faster than Kaminoan clones, who in turn are much more intelligent and competent for roles other than cannon fodder. It's a quality over quantity thing, with Kamino being quality and Spaarti being quantity. In my hypothetical "dictator of insert-SW-alien-race-here" role, I couldn't care less about Spaarti. Also note that with Spaarti clones, "the seller or the buyer can still give them traditional training," whereas the Kamino clone training is done in-house and with more time to go in-depth, thus providing a higher-quality product.

I will admit that there are other channels than the legal for Kamino to get a non-human species' DNA, but it would be more difficult unless they got lucky and some businessman wanted the Boba Fett package or something.

[Clistenes]

I've been following the Thrawn book read-throughs in a couple of other threads (Thrawn Trilogy here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385881-Let-s-ALL-Read-The-Thrawn-Trilogy) and Hand of Thrawn duology here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395437-Let-s-ALL-Read-The-Hand-of-Thrawn-SPOILERS-AHOY)), and as far as I can tell, Spaarti cloning tech sucks. They degenerate even faster than Kaminoan clones, who in turn are much more intelligent and competent for roles other than cannon fodder. It's a quality over quantity thing, with Kamino being quality and Spaarti being quantity. In my hypothetical "dictator of insert-SW-alien-race-here" role, I couldn't care less about Spaarti. Also note that with Spaarti clones, "the seller or the buyer can still give them traditional training," whereas the Kamino clone training is done in-house and with more time to go in-depth, thus providing a higher-quality product.

The Spaarti clones go mad if they are grown in less than a year, but they don't degenerate particularly fast if they are grown for a year or more.

Their training sucks because it's all Flash Training, but many clients won't need supersoldiers, just decent soldiers. If you can buy ten Spaarti clones for the price of a single Kaminoan clone, you can drill them for ten years while using them for less demanding roles at the same time.

At the end of those ten years you have soldiers as competent as the Kaminoan ones AND you have been exploiting them for ten years.

Thrawn started his war before finding the Spaarti cloning chambers, so he needed to churn soldiers FAST, hence the need to make them grown in weeks instead in years, even if they went mad.


I will admit that there are other channels than the legal for Kamino to get a non-human species' DNA, but it would be more difficult unless they got lucky and some businessman wanted the Boba Fett package or something.

If you get a good Wookie template you can sell Wookie soldiers forever. I think It's worth the effort.

[Landis963]

The Spaarti clones go mad if they are grown in less than a year, but they don't degenerate particularly fast if they are grown for a year or more.

Their training sucks because it's all Flash Training, but many clients won't need supersoldiers, just decent soldiers. If you can buy ten Spaarti clones for the price of a single Kaminoan clone, you can drill them for ten years while using them for less demanding roles at the same time.

At the end of those ten years you have soldiers as competent as the Kaminoan ones AND you have been exploiting them for ten years.

Thrawn started his war before finding the Spaarti cloning chambers, so he needed to churn soldiers FAST, hence the need to make them grown in weeks instead in years, even if they went mad.

Still seems far inferior to the Kaminoan process, which has a reputation both for excellence and for putting in the effort required to make you a product that lasts. Spaarti smacks of "Easy-Bake cloning" to me, both in- and out-of-universe. (Of course, Spaarti was created long before the prequels came out, so there's that).


If you get a good Wookie template you can sell Wookie soldiers forever. I think It's worth the effort.

They'd need to kludge one together from multiple poor sources, doable but possibly very annoying to work through (especially for the type of perfectionista that is the Kaminoan stereotype), or hope they get lucky and a non-human patron wants a tailor-made heir or source of "intelligent conversation" or something that would require the patron to give a sample. And again, I suspect that any leader of an extra-human nation with an eye on maintaining what little sovereignty alien races get in the Star Wars 'verse would be very much against a Kaminoan getting so much as a toenail clipping. Also, we're not told what exactly "Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas" paid for his Grand Army of the Republic, but I'd be willing to bet that it's quite a lot.

[pendell]

Thrawn was able to solve the problem of clone instability by judicious use of Ysalamir. So his Spaarti clones no longer went mad as the earlier Spaarti clones did. If there were other practical military drawbacks to mass cloning (as opposed to moral ones), they were not obvious in the Thrawn Trilogy. Thrawn's refusal to conscript Ukio's population indicates he intended to depend solely on his cloning chamber for human resources, and those clones we meet in the hand of thrawn trilogy appear to be both well-adjusted and capable. Their military skills have not suffered. What has suffered is that after more than ten years out of Imperial service they have grown into very different people from the young soldier templates.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[GAThraawn]

Did they really? People less than ten years old who've grown up in a restricted environment and fed nothing but military propaganda their whole lives? That's a choice?

Quite probably not, but I meant to frame things from the Republic's point of view; the Senate quite probably willing to overlook the issues of free will and such to take at face value the adult age army whose services are being offered in a prospective time of war (Don't look a gift ronto in the mouth).

I agree that sentient rights are a complex issue in Star Wars, and the legislation surrounding them is likely as driven by economic policy as anything else.

[Sith_Happens]

In the Legends EU the legal status and rights of the clone troopers remains a contentious issue in both the Senate and the Jedi Order for the entire duration of the Clone Wars. In practice, if I remember right, they end up treated more or less like any other military conscript.

[supermonkeyjoe]

I always got the impression that the situation was somewhat desperate, the republic needed an army right now so they took the one that was oh so conveniently ready for them and worried about the legal issues later, or not since Palpatine managed to have himself voted grant galactic overlord.

I can't recall anyone receiving any legal comeuppance for mistreatment of the clones in the films or the clone wars series which leads me to believe that their legal rights were about as much as all those sentient pain-feeling droids that get constantly mistreated.

[Cikomyr]

I always got the impression that the situation was somewhat desperate, the republic needed an army right now so they took the one that was oh so conveniently ready for them and worried about the legal issues later, or not since Palpatine managed to have himself voted grant galactic overlord.

I can't recall anyone receiving any legal comeuppance for mistreatment of the clones in the films or the clone wars series which leads me to believe that their legal rights were about as much as all those sentient pain-feeling droids that get constantly mistreated.

I think the actual well-meaningness of the Republic, regardless of desperation, is the public opinion regarding the future of the clones.

Were the clones given any sort of pay? Were they allowed to have material property?

Could a clone retire from service? Was there a time, in the far future after the war, when clones could be disbanded and allowed to live a life of peace? Or were they sent to the processing plant and transformed into clonefood?

[Bob of Mage]

I always got the impression that the situation was somewhat desperate, the republic needed an army right now so they took the one that was oh so conveniently ready for them and worried about the legal issues later, or not since Palpatine managed to have himself voted grant galactic overlord.

I can't recall anyone receiving any legal comeuppance for mistreatment of the clones in the films or the clone wars series which leads me to believe that their legal rights were about as much as all those sentient pain-feeling droids that get constantly mistreated.

I think this is pretty much what happened. The CIS forces were more then strong enough to take Coruscant before the clones showed up. So the Old Republic really only had the choice of use these clones that were somehow battleready, or be reduced to a handful of loyalist worlds (CIS would only have attack worlds that would be a net gain after their victory).

After the GAR was formed, it became quite hard to ask tough questions about the war effort. Anyone who did could be labeled as a CIS supporter by Palpatine's propaganda machine. {scrubbed}

[Hyena]

Well, things that I do know from current canon: after the clone wars, 501st legion remained the only clone part of the imperial army, the rest was composed of recruits. We also know that clones have a poor lifespan - I don't think any lived to see the end of the Empire.

[Bob of Mage]

I think the actual well-meaningness of the Republic, regardless of desperation, is the public opinion regarding the future of the clones.

Were the clones given any sort of pay? Were they allowed to have material property?

Could a clone retire from service? Was there a time, in the far future after the war, when clones could be disbanded and allowed to live a life of peace? Or were they sent to the processing plant and transformed into clonefood?

I would point out that in the Republic Commando novels they were in a sort of legal limbo. They sort of counted as both property and people, but no one was able to bring the issue to the courts. Clones too sick to be healed would be put down or used for research (tech for Vader's suit came partly from tests on clones). As said before they got no pay, and couldn't quit. I do think they might be able to own material property, but would never earn the money to get any.

[Philistine]

Maybe a nature/nurture sort of thing? Training and conditioning doesn't pay for itself you know. Besides, if I had any say in the Twi'lek/Wookiee/Bith/what have you government(s), I'd make Kamino pay through the nose before they got within a mile of any genetic sample of any of "my" people. Plus backup heirs in perpetuity at a bare minimum.

You're assuming that local governments have perfect (or indeed any) control over the behavior of every single individual member of any species native to their worlds, no matter where those individuals might travel in the greater galaxy. And worse, that the genetic material of individuals is somehow the property of the system government of the world where the individual's species evolved. Can you support either of those assumptions at all?

[Lord Magtok]

This is something that has been bugging me for some time.

We know that before the Clone Wars slavery was illegal and cloning was legal.

Do we have anything actually confirming that? I mean, Anakin and his mother were slaves (admittedly, that was on Tatooine, which isn't exactly known for its strict adherence to regulations). If those two weren't legal property, what was stopping Qui-Gon from just grabbing Anakin and his mother and taking off, after their ship was repaired?

[Philistine]

Do we have anything actually confirming that? I mean, Anakin and his mother were slaves (admittedly, that was on Tatooine, which isn't exactly known for its strict adherence to regulations). If those two weren't legal property, what was stopping Qui-Gon from just grabbing Anakin and his mother and taking off, after their ship was repaired?

Actually, yes. Padme is shocked to learn that Anakin and Shmi are slaves in That One Movie, because slavery is illegal in the Republic. But Tatooine is not a Republic member world (which is also the given explanation for Watto's unwillingness to accept Republic money).

As for "What stopped Qui-Gon just taking them?", presumably in-universe it was the explosive collars around their necks. (Out of universe, of course, the answer is "bad writing.")

[pendell]

All answers based on Republic Commando novels.

1. Could a clone retire from service?
No. It's a job for life.

At the behest of some well-meaning senators, retirement homes were set aside for them so that those who survived through the war could live out their lives in relative comfort. But it's more like assisted living in a rest home than it is a normal life. Remember, these guys have been put in a military environment and made to break things and kill people from birth. They have never lived in civil society. You can't just turn people like that loose on Coruscant and expect things to end well. So they go to retirement homes or the lucky few desert to the Mandalorian homeworld, where the open spaces, clan
structure, and semi-military atmosphere make for a much easier adjustment then, say, the undercity of Coruscant.

2) Was there a time, in the far future after the war, when clones could be disbanded and allowed to live a life of peace?

There is no "far future" for the clones. Rapid aging. Most died, either from being killed in action or from being recycled for parts when wounded. A few survivors lived to see the rest homes or the Mando world. An even smaller percentage, perhaps, were able to find an anti-aging cure and live out normal lives, but these especially would be outlaws from the Empire merely by existing.

3) Or were they sent to the processing plant and transformed into clonefood?

I don't think they were ever fed to other sentients or clones. Instead, those wounded in action were made into involuntary organ donors, stripped for parts then put down. A very few survivors DID get a happy ending, thanks to some very kindhearted senators, but they were a small number of lottery winners.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

And in the "newcanon SW-verse" there's a couple of interesting interviews related to Rebels:

http://www.hitfix.com/news/dave-filoni-on-star-wars-rebels-place-in-the-timeline

Interviewer: Setting “Star Wars Rebels” in the lead up to “A New Hope” leads to some interesting questions. Like what happened to all the clones after Order 66?

Dave Filoni: “The Clones are all working the docks. They’re all old men. Some of them are very bitter. Some of them feel terrible about what happened. It’s tough being a clone.”


http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2013/10/18/nycc-star-wars-rebels-unleashes-the-empires-inquisitor/

“Clone troopers basically stopped production,” Hidalgo said. “Stormtroopers are anyone, like you or me. They’re citizens that volunteer. It’s an interesting contrast because the lab-grown Clone troopers exhibited too much individuality to be of use to the Empire. They can actually find better uniformity in fervent patriots who volunteer for service.”
Now that Stormtroopers are entering the picture, the future of the Clone troopers is somewhat uncertain. “Even though the cloning operations as we know them from the Clone Wars have stopped, those Clone troopers are still around and they’re aging twice as fast as everyone,” Hidalgo said. “Some of them still believe in what they know and have gone on to become trainers of Stormtroopers, while others have become discarded by a society that never really appreciated them to begin with.”

Oddly, in Star Wars debates I've seen a lot of arguments that "It's growth acceleration, not rapid ageing - once they reach adulthood they age normally - the EU is wrong - and Filoni & Hidalgo are wrong to try to canonize the EU's rapid ageing"