Decision Time Character Creation

[GutterFace]

So we finally got around to making a new game, in 5.0. This is our tables first time go around since we got our group back together. some vets some lightly experienced players. I have always tended to optimize anything i made, it's in my blood. So I am going to break the mold this time and try and make a total Support player and let the others shine.
Everyone is still going through the PHB and figuring out what they want to be. but i can tell already we have a Paladin, Barbarian, Warlock, possibly a Fighter (Champion).

So to the meat of it; I am thinking BM Fighter, with javelins, the grizzled sergeant type. or an Abjurer Wizard, the cautious type. (I dislike Clerics and Druids, i have over played those in the last 15 years).

I am leaning towards Wiz cause we have a lot of Beefy guys in the mix, but does BM fighter get more mileage with these guys? or would the Abjurer?

Starting at level 1 and going all the way over time with these guys (DM willing).

[pwykersotz]

If your goal is total support, I'd probably go Wizard. Spells offer far more pure support options. If you go BM Fighter, you're support is based on you connecting with attacks and supplementing damage. But if optimization is in your blood, maybe staying away from Wizard is a good thing. Spell selection is notoriously difficult to not power-game if you have the capability and tendency for it. :smallwink:

[GutterFace]

If your goal is total support, I'd probably go Wizard. Spells offer far more pure support options. If you go BM Fighter, you're support is based on you connecting with attacks and supplementing damage. But if optimization is in your blood, maybe staying away from Wizard is a good thing. Spell selection is notoriously difficult to not power-game if you have the capability and tendency for it. :smallwink:

I know, the lust for power/wizard is part of the draw.
i plan on choosing a non optimal race to start, and defiantly no variant human. I think you might be right, Wizard might be the better support. if i demand i never prepare spells to drop bombs with.

I forgot to mention before, Bards creep me out. And we used to have a guy that played music and sang at the table while he played. i can't top that, so i wont even try.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I always liked the idea of the Divination Wizard in 5e. I mean, you basically replace your allies' awful rolls with good ones, or turn an enemy boss's critical into a flub to save the Rogue or something. It's just neat and flavorful.

[GutterFace]

I always liked the idea of the Divination Wizard in 5e. I mean, you basically replace your allies' awful rolls with good ones, or turn an enemy boss's critical into a flub to save the Rogue or something. It's just neat and flavorful.

ooooh i hadn't even thought about that. nice.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

ooooh i hadn't even thought about that. nice.

There's also Transmutation and Necromancy. Transmutation lets you have a magic stone that you can burn for special effects, including some extremely powerful healing effects. Barbarian dead? Your stone lets you Raise Dead. Fighter bleeding out at 0 hp and failing saves? Restore all health, no slots expended. Rogue just got hit with a horrible disease (he caught from a tavern wench)? Cure everything. Yes, everything. No slots. No prepared spells. It's just that easy.

You can also permanently remove age from yourself or others (3d10? 13 minimum, I know).

Necromancy is fun just because you get a bunch of Skelebros to wreck with. It costs you essentially perma-depleting spell slots, so it's something of a handicap on your Wizard, but you still have combat cantrips, and the party now has minions/moving shields to help them overcome their foes.

[GutterFace]

My fear is know Trans spells will make me too reliable in the party. people need to learn how to carry their own weight hahaha
i always loved Necro as well but im staying away from creating and summoning for now

[Balor777]

I highly believe the beat support comes as a hidden card.
I would make a rogue/sorc multiclass.
DEX based and controll/buff spells you can allways twin
and change tgw tide of tide battle on the fly.
High stealth setup.Hide and ready a twin levitate dominate person or many othee stuff when things go wrong.
1 level of rogue every 2 levels of dragon sorc is nice.
Also go with only clothes.Dont forget dragon sorc gains 5hp per level and has higher armor.
1 rogue
2 sorc
3 rogue
4-6 sorc
7 rogue(choose archtype assasin and trickster would work)
8rogue
9-20 sorc

[Mandragola]

Certainly a sorceror is the best buffing caster, thanks to twin spell haste (or twin spell anything). But you don't get all that many tricks to play with. I was also going to suggest the divination wizard, or maybe the bard.

If you can't top the guy singing and playing music as the bard why not pick something different entirely? Not every bard is meant to go around playing the Lute nowadays I think. Also I can't help noticing that none of the current picks is a healer so that could be useful.

[hawklost]

If you really want Non optimal, then you would want to be a wild magic Sorcerer. Half your class effects go off completely randomly and are completely random. You might save the day or turn yourself into a potted plant!

There are many spells that can be used for Support, but remember now that Concentration works differently, you cannot really be the Buffer of the party anymore (too many spells require concentration to work and you can only have one of them on at a time.)

As for Diviner, the temptation of that one is just as strong as a Transmuter. Using your effects to solve all the riddles or find the enemy because of Devination spells is hard to pass up when the party is divided. Also note that no matter what Wizard sub class you take, you can pick spells from any other school, (there are no restrictions in school in 5e).

EDIT:
A Bard is also a very good choice for support. You can make yourself knowledgable for effects, you can make yourself choose the college of Lore and not choose combat spells when you can pick from anyone and you are not exactly a front line fighter or a damage caster. A lot of your spells are controlling, which also helps in the party if all you do is knock someone out of combat lately.

[Felvion]

I got completely ninjaed by Mandragola (the delivery boy helped him by distracting me:smallbiggrin:) so i'll just second what he said!
A bard could be just a loreseeking adventurer. Gathering the lore can be your thing, you definately don't have to sing it too! You could use all your inspiration dice for cutting words, i doubt anyone will complain as long as you keep healing their @sses. Additionally the bard (especially the lore path) is the new skill-king and i've noticed your party lacks a skill monkey. You get more skill proficiencies than any other class at level 3 plus expertise.
In overall, a bard has all those advantages that make for a good support:
1)Full arcane caster
2)Spell versatility beyond the limits of his own class through magical secrets. (honorable mention to the find steed spell here)
3)Healing potential.
4)Most skills in the game + expertise
5)Being charisma based caster also allows you to be the social guy.
What not to love? Who can bring up more as a support?
Just find a good rp reason to dislike music, even though you are still good at it. Perhaps your mentor's methods were too harsh? It was the only class you disliked in your college but the lore-love kept you going? Maybe you are too shy to demonstrate your skills (which happen to be excellent) and you only study music when noone can hear you? Were you expelled from a bardic college due to criminal background and any reference to music makes you feel shame?
Anything could work.

Bear in mind that nothing can beat the coolness of a twinned buff especially haste. On the other hand a sorcerer has much more limited options than a bard when it comes to game action. I mean a sorcerer can cast twinned haste and just watch the world burn especially if your party has a champion and a barbarian. Are you ok with this playstyle? Your concentration is now on this spell and you can cast even less spells for the rest of the fight. Plus there is a big downside on the twinned haste. Should you lose your concentration, they both get stunned for a round. Which would be really bad.
Still, it's a gamebraking combo but not the best for a support... You have no healing, no great skill list... Your few spells have to be the gamechangers that doesn't fit the role you're looking for.

Anyway, whatever class you may pick consider picking sentinel and possibly a whip. No matter how good a caster you are, once your concentration is set on something you have limited options and locking someone to the ground as part of your reaction is great. If you can afford the MAD pair it with polearm master (and a pole obviously!) to proc OA much more often. A one level monk dip can save you the strength investment, while giving you an extra unarmed attack when fighting in melee. The multiclassing cost is just a 13 in wis assuming your dex would be in high priority anyway.

Finally, i don't see but very limited supportive usefullness in the bm. Early game he can pull a trick or two but in mid to late game if he's not optimized to fight he's doomed. Is it something i'm missing?

[GutterFace]

@Felvion,
i was thinking Sorc originally, then realized we have 2 classes with a ton of Charisma and those guys love being the party face.

i know if pick Bard people are going to want singing or stories or jokes. hahaah they have come to expect it. im just not that quick witted hahaha.

i think its going to come down to a coin flip at this point haha but buffing Sorc miiiiight edge everything out

[Felvion]

@Felvion,
i was thinking Sorc originally, then realized we have 2 classes with a ton of Charisma and those guys love being the party face.

i know if pick Bard people are going to want singing or stories or jokes. hahaah they have come to expect it. im just not that quick witted hahaha.

i think its going to come down to a coin flip at this point haha but buffing Sorc miiiiight edge everything out

In case you choose bard, try this: There is background feature in charlatan that allows you to have a second identity. Tell everyone you are a sorcerer and at the first 1-2 levels nobody will know the difference if you are all new to 5th. After few sessions just reveal your true identity in-game while talking to an npc!
It'd be even better to make it happen when none of their characters is present. That way they'd have to pretend they still know your false identity. Should anyone come to ask why you did such a thing tell them that's what your bard is good at, fooling people! Songs and jokes are just for comic bards!
Your dm's approval is crucial to make this happen (you'll need much of his help) but it'd be a good bard lesson!
Anyway, whatever you decide, have fun mate!

[archaeo]

You could certainly have fun with a Wizard, but I second what hawklost says:


A Bard is also a very good choice for support. You can make yourself knowledgable for effects, you can make yourself choose the college of Lore and not choose combat spells when you can pick from anyone and you are not exactly a front line fighter or a damage caster. A lot of your spells are controlling, which also helps in the party if all you do is knock someone out of combat lately.

It also helps that Bards get inspiration to throw out constantly, which can be an extremely meaningful buff, especially in the early game. It's a great class for making other classes better.


i know if pick Bard people are going to want singing or stories or jokes. hahaah they have come to expect it. im just not that quick witted hahaha.

Don't be afraid to break the mold!

Pick the acolyte background, choose to play a Bard who took a vow of silence but hums little magical tunes in addition to playing music beautifully. Be a Gnomish student of theoretical bardic arts, someone who can't actually play music (a point of shame!) but understands the underlying theory of bardic magic perfectly, casting spells with single perfect notes using beautiful bells and tuning forks. Be an already very old Bard with the hermit background, who came out of the wilderness unable to communicate with anyone except through magical koans and poetry. Be a Tiefling who works magic through the music of the underworld, which to mortals sounds like torturous atonal noise.

Lots of ways to have a cool Bard without necessarily needing to be a quick-witted songwriter.