Wondering if this is normal

[CursedRhubarb]

So, I'm in my first ever D&D campaign, we're using 3.5, and I'm enjoying it so far but not as much as I know I could. After looking around at what other people have been doing and the general discussions and whatnot I've started to wonder if our GMs (we have two that tend to alternate) are a lot more strict about things or have some strange house rules. From what I've read online there seems to be a lot of freedom on characters and how to play but I feel a bit constrained as our party Barbarian (party is all CG with a NG healer). So I guess what I'm wondering is if these are normal things in D&D and how what kind of things I can try to have a bit more character freedom or make the character more fun. Also, since we have a few people that are new or haven't played in a long time things are strictly 3.5 players handbook and GM guide only. No prestige classes or add-on books in our adventure.

-Whenever we are in a town the GMs seem to love putting me in social situations where, unless I roll a natural 20, I wind up in a fight with the guards or attacked by shopkeepers.

-When we started they were adamant that Barbarians can only wear hide or leather armors. They decided to loosen up on that a bit eventually and I was allowed to get a breastplate.

-I had mentioned being excited about being able to wear Mithril full-plate in the late game and they pretty much said "Never going to happen" because Mithril, they said, is an elven material and they would never make something for humans with it, especially a barbarian. Also they say that despite being Mithril and counting as Medium armor it is still heavy armor so I couldn't wear it since I only have light and medium skill. So no armor or items of Mithril items for me ever since the rest of the 6 man party is elves, other than the gnome cleric.

-Alignment seems to be a huge part of our limitations in game but from reading online it seems like most people don't factor it in. For us it means casters can't use any spells that could be considered evil and the GMs consider pretty much anything with necromancy evil so no raising dead or enchantments that would use necromancy for us. It also grinds me a bit since in town I can't just slice up the guards or shopkeepers that keep trying to kill or arrest me. It also means I can't use my barbarians one social skill (intimidate) in town according to them.

-I try and hold my rage skill for when I'm about to hit the enemy in fights but I've been told I'm doing it wrong and should rage at the very beginning when we roll initiative. Even though it could be up to 4 turns before I can hit a guy from then which would mean about half the rage just goes to waste.

So, again wondering if these are normal things in a D&D campaign or if these are a bit more strict than normal and if anyone has any advice on how I can try and get a bit more flexibility with my character and try and make him more fun. Where we are currently, we are able to get a magic weapon, item, or armor with our coin so any items you think could be helpful would be great. I have 250 platinum and the limits are no mithril and sounds like we have a GM mercy and only have to pay 50% of the cost of the magic so that opens things up a bit more. Only magic Item I have so far is Gauntlets of Ogres Strength (+2 STR0 and am 6th lvl Barbarian using a greatsword as my main weapon.

[Flickerdart]

-Whenever we are in a town the GMs seem to love putting me in social situations where, unless I roll a natural 20, I wind up in a fight with the guards or attacked by shopkeepers.
Definitely not normal.



-When we started they were adamant that Barbarians can only wear hide or leather armors. They decided to loosen up on that a bit eventually and I was allowed to get a breastplate.
Not even a rule. Barbarians can wear any light or medium armor.


-I had mentioned being excited about being able to wear Mithril full-plate in the late game and they pretty much said "Never going to happen" because Mithril, they said, is an elven material and they would never make something for humans with it, especially a barbarian. Also they say that despite being Mithril and counting as Medium armor it is still heavy armor so I couldn't wear it since I only have light and medium skill. So no armor or items of Mithril items for me ever since the rest of the 6 man party is elves, other than the gnome cleric.
Anyone can craft mithril. And yes, it counts as medium instead of heavy, that's literally what the material does.



-Alignment seems to be a huge part of our limitations in game but from reading online it seems like most people don't factor it in. For us it means casters can't use any spells that could be considered evil and the GMs consider pretty much anything with necromancy evil so no raising dead or enchantments that would use necromancy for us. It also grinds me a bit since in town I can't just slice up the guards or shopkeepers that keep trying to kill or arrest me. It also means I can't use my barbarians one social skill (intimidate) in town according to them.

Raise Dead isn't evil. Even if it were, there are no restrictions on Good characters casting Evil spells.



-I try and hold my rage skill for when I'm about to hit the enemy in fights but I've been told I'm doing it wrong and should rage at the very beginning when we roll initiative. Even though it could be up to 4 turns before I can hit a guy from then which would mean about half the rage just goes to waste.

What the hell kind of encounters are you doing where it takes 4 turns to get to the enemy?



So, again wondering if these are normal things in a D&D campaign or if these are a bit more strict than normal and if anyone has any advice on how I can try and get a bit more flexibility with my character and try and make him more fun. Where we are currently, we are able to get a magic weapon, item, or armor with our coin so any items you think could be helpful would be great. I have 250 platinum and the limits are no mithril and sounds like we have a GM mercy and only have to pay 50% of the cost of the magic so that opens things up a bit more. Only magic Item I have so far is Gauntlets of Ogres Strength (+2 STR0 and am 6th lvl Barbarian using a greatsword as my main weapon.
You're 6th level and all you have is a 4000gp item and 2500gp? The wealth you should have is 13,000gp.

Looks like your DMs need to re-read the PHB and DMG.

[Afgncaap5]

Doesn't sound normal to me, and I consider myself to be pretty strict. I mean, it's one thing if they want to say that elves are the only people who control any mithril mines and the only ones who've developed a skill to work mithril so far, but that kind of thing still shouldn't make it an outright impossibility. (Heck, if anything, it should be an inviting story hook. Offer to steal the mithril secrets for some dwarves for a fee that includes a few free suits of mithril armor.)

[atemu1234]

Not normal. Definitely not normal.

[DrMotives]

Not only is it weirdly strict, it doesn't even make sense. Barbarian doesn't always mean savage, that's just the most common fluff as a throwback to 2e barbarians. A 2e barbarian could only wear leather & hide at the start, but roleplaying adventuring exposing them to more advanced cultures voided that restriction in all but a few variants of the class. And if the only elves have mithril thing is supposed to go back to LotR, that's not even right. The only mithril gear in all of LotR was mined, crafted, and held by dwarves until the dragon moved in. They just said the word mithril was Elvish for true silver, and while they valued it they didn't control it.

[CursedRhubarb]

Wow, thanks for the fast replies.

So definitely not a normal setting, heh. Any ideas on things I could try to give my guy some more flexibility? I've been feeling like I'm stuck with very few options, but then I'm still new and could be missing great opportunities because I haven't thought of things.

As for why we are so broke and I only have the one item, we thought we'd try The Worlds Largest Dungeon and after being still in section A after almost a year decided to scoot and do a more traditional campaign style and that dungeon has jack squat for loot or money.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The mithril full plate thing I can kind of understand, having it count as medium for movement but not proficiency, but everything else (including the rest of the explanation for not getting any mithril armor) is just plain bad.

[RolandDeschain]

This is definitely NOT normal, and as has already been stated, some of it doesn't even make sense. You could and probably should bring these things up for discussion.

Alternatively(nothing is really alternative to talking things out) you could consider a class dip. Part of me suspects that your DM(s) are equating Barbarian illiteracy with being an utter savage. I humbly submit that a 1 level dip into cleric might do your character some good. Now, you may not be able to cast spells in battle due to raging, but who cares? If you've got the raging part down and you're enjoying being a beatstick during combat, that's great. You're suppose to be having fun right?

Consider that it'll 'cure' your illiteracy, also grants heavy armor proficiency(I'll leave it to you if you want to wear heavy armor and give up your fast movement, but it might be a useful argument against their silly belief about mithril full plate). You'll get some social skills out of the class dip, but not as many skill points sadly.

Plenty of gods out there that a Barbarian would find appealing and lots of great Domain powers as well. You can return to Barbarian for more levels or keep going cleric for lots more versatility for your character. Sadly the Rage/Spellcasting thing doesn't work, but like I said, just wade in to battle and do your Barbarian thing because it's FUN!

EDIT: What gods/pantheons are available in your setting, I could possibly help you "find religion" in terms of which one makes the most sense and has fun Domains.

[Malimar]

The only thing on that list that's even half reasonable is "mithril is an elf thing" -- giving the benefit of the doubt, it could be a setting thing: the elves control all the mithril mines and are racist jerks about whom they sell it to. It's not in line with the standard assumptions, but lots of settings have elements that aren't in line with the standard assumptions.

Still, it shouldn't prevent you from, say, beating up some elves and taking their stuff.


Raise Dead isn't evil. Even if it were, there are no restrictions on Good characters casting Evil spells.

Other than clerics, who can't cast spells with an alignment descriptor opposed to their own or their deity's.

[CursedRhubarb]

Ah, I thought I had included that we aren't allowed multiclass. Just straight core class. I thought I'd mentioned that but realized I completely missed it, my apologies. Deity for my guy is Kord since I needed a CG one that would fit a barbarian.

The illiteracy thing can be a pain but I've managed to find some fun loopholes with it since my guy has an Int. of 14. I've been able to get our bard to teach me some basic Draconian phrases and insults for taunting and intimidating and the same with Demonic from our sorcerer. I may not be able to read it but I can speak it a little. Also, it's more fun than it should be to make the rest of the party read things to me so I kind of like the illiteracy.

[eggynack]

So definitely not a normal setting, heh. Any ideas on things I could try to give my guy some more flexibility? I've been feeling like I'm stuck with very few options, but then I'm still new and could be missing great opportunities because I haven't thought of things.
Barbarians tend to be pretty lacking in flexibility. What you generally want is a caster of some kind, both for the general reason that you can adapt more to odd situations, and for the game specific reason that you can adapt more to this game's weirdness. Sure, they're also shutting down casters in weird ways, with the alignment thing (though bypassing that is possibly trivial just by going neutral), but a caster can have their tricks shut down in a massive pile of weird and difficult to predict ways without running out of awesome tricks.

My typical advice is druid, because they can adapt instantly to problems without preparation through spontaneous summoning and wild shape, and because they can change their list without research unlike a wizard which needs some shop access. The overall goal here is the ability to, when they tell you something doesn't work for some absurd reason, just transition over to another thing within either six seconds or a day, depending on the thing. You could argue against some of the weirdness, but if you don't want to you can quietly remake your entire character, just within the bounds of normal class features. Cleric would work also, but they rely more on preparation, so you could be caught off guard within the context of a particular day. Also, druids have less in the way of what this DM would call an "aligned spell", given their general lack of necromancy or enchantment.

Edit: Even better if you're stuck with one core class. Barbarians really like to ditch out of the class after a level or two, and other casters like to prestige class away as soon as possible. Druid 20 just keeps on keeping on.

[WhiteSatyr]

Are you having fun?

Is the group having fun?

Have you spoken to the GM's about it?

It's possible that the GM's have a plan behind their actions. Maybe they like giving players the challenge of playing in a world where not everything which is in the books is automatically available.

The behavior of the guards, not allowing metal armor for a barbarian, those are perhaps their idea of how their world should work. I don't agree with those choices, but that doesn't automatically make them wrong.

Every game is different. These forums only represent the way people on these forums play the game. There is no way this game SHOULD be played. There are millions of ways it CAN be played. The objective is to have fun, isn't it? There will always be a game somewhere where characters get more stuff, more things are allowed, and so on.

Talk to the people in the group, try to align your and their expectations. Most of all, have fun!

[CursedRhubarb]

Are you having fun?

Is the group having fun?

Have you spoken to the GM's about it?


I'm having a little fun, but more frustration than fun because so far about 70% has been social encounters and I've just been completely useless. because I wind up in a confrontation with some female npc that is pulling some sort of scam and everyone else in the party fawns over the npc and I wind up risking a fight against the npc and my party, which honestly would be interesting since I think my guy could take out the party, except the cleric pretty quick since we are still low level and no one has many highly damaging spells yet and other than the cleric, they have less than 30 hp and are in leather or cloth.

I've tried asking the GM about it but that always comes to the "The GM is always right, argue and I smite your character or party."

I just don't want things to wind up with having to fight and kill my own party before I get killed so I'm trying to find ways to improve my options XD.

[RolandDeschain]

Ah, I thought I had included that we aren't allowed multiclass. Just straight core class. I thought I'd mentioned that but realized I completely missed it, my apologies.

Oh. Umm...good luck then.

[atemu1234]

I'm having a little fun, but more frustration than fun because so far about 70% has been social encounters and I've just been completely useless. because I wind up in a confrontation with some female npc that is pulling some sort of scam and everyone else in the party fawns over the npc and I wind up risking a fight against the npc and my party, which honestly would be interesting since I think my guy could take out the party, except the cleric pretty quick since we are still low level and no one has many highly damaging spells yet and other than the cleric, they have less than 30 hp and are in leather or cloth.

I've tried asking the GM about it but that always comes to the "The GM is always right, argue and I smite your character or party."

I just don't want things to wind up with having to fight and kill my own party before I get killed so I'm trying to find ways to improve my options XD.

In this case, vote with your feet.

Or if your DM says, "Rocks fall, everyone dies" respond with the most powerful word ever invented, so powerful and so simple that so many cultures never altered it from its form:

No.

[oxybe]

No gaming is better then bad gaming. It's words to live by.

I have a lot of options when it comes to how I spend my spare time. I have other roleplaying games I could be playing, other friends I could be hanging out with, or I could just open steam and play anything on that huge list. Hell, I might just sit back, pop open Netflix, find myself a cheezy B-movie, warm up a pot of tea and snuggle into the cozy blanket mom got me for christmas.

Lots of options.

And knowing those options exist, I see no reason why "hang out with abusive GM" should take priority over genmaicha.

"The GM is always right, argue and I smite your character or party" is a downright horrible attitude for one to take. Remember first and foremost, D&D is a social activity. Imagine ANY OTHER social situation where "the host is always right, argue and I smite you or the people attending" actually comes up. You would probably leave, right? If you're getting frustrated playing a game because of the GM tell him your issues and he can either revise how stuff works or find a new player.

I've walked out on bad games. They exist and you shouldn't suffer them.

[Crake]

Raise Dead isn't evil. Even if it were, there are no restrictions on Good characters casting Evil spells.

I suspect he meant animating dead, though with all the other things mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually did mean raise dead.

[Karl Aegis]

It really sounds like you're being treated like a slave or ex-slave because you didn't play to your DM's Elf fetish. Player's Handbook Elves tend to be one of the worst races in the game, especially without access to splatbooks. But, it doesn't seem like your DM is using Player's Handbook Elves for some reason, instead using some kind of Lawful Evil variant that delights in torturing minorities and values the traditional overt racism over their usual Chaotic Good freedom-loving.

[Blackhawk748]

It really sounds like you're being treated like a slave or ex-slave because you didn't play to your DM's Elf fetish. Player's Handbook Elves tend to be one of the worst races in the game, especially without access to splatbooks. But, it doesn't seem like your DM is using Player's Handbook Elves for some reason, instead using some kind of Lawful Evil variant that delights in torturing minorities and values the traditional overt racism over their usual Chaotic Good freedom-loving.

But Chaotic Good High Elves are just better than everyone, didnt you know that?

Heres a question, are you in Dragonlance? because that would answer SO much.

Also, listen to oxybe, there is much wisdom in those words.

[Invader]

AFaiK illiteracy doesn't affect how many languages you can speak. If you have an int of 14 you should get your bonus languages just like anyone else and it's simple enough to spend two skill points of you do want to know how to read and write them.

[CursedRhubarb]

But Chaotic Good High Elves are just better than everyone, didnt you know that?

Heres a question, are you in Dragonlance? because that would answer SO much.

Also, listen to oxybe, there is much wisdom in those words.

I'm not familiar with what Dragonlance is, not heard of it before. As for elves, from what I've seen they are all pretty racist and high-and-mighty. Our GM does prefer playing Drow though.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm not familiar with what Dragonlance is, not heard of it before. As for elves, from what I've seen they are all pretty racist and high-and-mighty. Our GM does prefer playing Drow though.

This sounds like Dragonlance Elves, who have a lot in common (at least personality wise) with Warhammer Fantasy High Elves.

Also Drow are, well, Drow. They may be Racist, but they are far less in your face about the superiority thing, mainly cuz they already got stomped once (ala Corellian Lerathion)

[Coidzor]

-Whenever we are in a town the GMs seem to love putting me in social situations where, unless I roll a natural 20, I wind up in a fight with the guards or attacked by shopkeepers.

Nope. Weird, unfair, and kinda passive-aggressive. Also, lame.

Did you steal someone's girlfriend or something? :smallconfused:


-When we started they were adamant that Barbarians can only wear hide or leather armors. They decided to loosen up on that a bit eventually and I was allowed to get a breastplate.

Not normal, probably a result of never having actually looked at the rules and just tried to make their own prejudices into rules.


-I had mentioned being excited about being able to wear Mithril full-plate in the late game and they pretty much said "Never going to happen" because Mithril, they said, is an elven material and they would never make something for humans with it, especially a barbarian. Also they say that despite being Mithril and counting as Medium armor it is still heavy armor so I couldn't wear it since I only have light and medium skill. So no armor or items of Mithril items for me ever since the rest of the 6 man party is elves, other than the gnome cleric.

Yeah, there's very few ways to tell what character class someone with a lot of money who wants to buy or commission armor is. Also

So, again, they're making their prejudices into rules.

And forgetting that dwarves are the source of mithril, because those poncy elves can't be bothered to do any mining ...and that all you'd have to do would be kill an elf in mithril fullplate, take it to a smith or have craft ranks yourself, and then refit it to yourself. Bada-boom, bada-bing.

But good to know your fellow players are cooperating to try to prevent you from enjoying the game, though. And that in-character they view being ponces as more important than the survival of the party both individually and as a whole.


-Alignment seems to be a huge part of our limitations in game but from reading online it seems like most people don't factor it in. For us it means casters can't use any spells that could be considered evil and the GMs consider pretty much anything with necromancy evil so no raising dead or enchantments that would use necromancy for us. It also grinds me a bit since in town I can't just slice up the guards or shopkeepers that keep trying to kill or arrest me. It also means I can't use my barbarians one social skill (intimidate) in town according to them.

That's pretty weird, yeah, ruling bringing people *back* to life as evil. :smallconfused:

...So the DM keeps trying to kill you and then tells you OOC that you're not allowed to defend your character?

Yeah, we've officially reached NoBadWrongFun territory.


-I try and hold my rage skill for when I'm about to hit the enemy in fights but I've been told I'm doing it wrong and should rage at the very beginning when we roll initiative. Even though it could be up to 4 turns before I can hit a guy from then which would mean about half the rage just goes to waste.

Why on earth does it take you 4 rounds to enter combat after an encounter has started? :smallconfused: But, yeah, they're wrong on that front as well.


So, again wondering if these are normal things in a D&D campaign or if these are a bit more strict than normal and if anyone has any advice on how I can try and get a bit more flexibility with my character and try and make him more fun.

Not play with these people, since reasoning with them seems unlikely from what you've said. I mean, sure, you could try reasoning with them, but you're completely new to the game and they don't respect your perspective or ability to read the rules.

edit:


Doesn't sound normal to me, and I consider myself to be pretty strict. I mean, it's one thing if they want to say that elves are the only people who control any mithril mines and the only ones who've developed a skill to work mithril so far, but that kind of thing still shouldn't make it an outright impossibility. (Heck, if anything, it should be an inviting story hook. Offer to steal the mithril secrets for some dwarves for a fee that includes a few free suits of mithril armor.)

Indeed. Dwarves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurDwarvesAreAllTheSame) would find that situation utterly intolerable and a reversal of the natural order.


AFaiK illiteracy doesn't affect how many languages you can speak. If you have an int of 14 you should get your bonus languages just like anyone else and it's simple enough to spend two skill points of you do want to know how to read and write them.

Illiteracy has absolutely nothing to do with the number of languages you can speak.


This sounds like Dragonlance Elves, who have a lot in common (at least personality wise) with Warhammer Fantasy High Elves.

Also Drow are, well, Drow. They may be Racist, but they are far less in your face about the superiority thing, mainly cuz they already got stomped once (ala Corellian Lerathion)

Well, if you're not in Drow lands you only see them if they've got relations for trading with the surface worlders (and even then they prefer to use proxies) or when they're raiding or slave-taking. So they're either being on their best behavior or trying to stab you in the face. No real time to gloat.

In Drow lands, though? They definitely make sure that the non-slave, non-drow know their place.


AFaiK illiteracy doesn't affect how many languages you can speak. If you have an int of 14 you should get your bonus languages just like anyone else and it's simple enough to spend two skill points of you do want to know how to read and write them.

Illiteracy has absolutely nothing to do with the number of languages you can speak.

I'm having a little fun, but more frustration than fun because so far about 70% has been social encounters and I've just been completely useless. because I wind up in a confrontation with some female npc that is pulling some sort of scam and everyone else in the party fawns over the npc and I wind up risking a fight against the npc and my party, which honestly would be interesting since I think my guy could take out the party, except the cleric pretty quick since we are still low level and no one has many highly damaging spells yet and other than the cleric, they have less than 30 hp and are in leather or cloth.

You've chosen poorly and they were not upfront about the nature of the game so they basically laid a trap for you.


I've tried asking the GM about it but that always comes to the "The GM is always right, argue and I smite your character or party."

Yeah, you don't need a scrub GM like that.


I just don't want things to wind up with having to fight and kill my own party before I get killed so I'm trying to find ways to improve my options XD.

Well, your alternatives are leave the game or get into a physical altercation with the group then, and leaving the group is probably preferable, since they'd undo any PC deaths you inflicted after you left anyway.

Or kill your character and come back with another racist, poncy elf now that you know what kind of game this is going to be, I suppose.

[Karl Aegis]

Neither Drow nor Healer are in the Player's Handbook or the Dungeon Master's Guide. You aren't playing by the same rules everyone else is.

[CursedRhubarb]

Okay, yeah I had the wrong spell, I thought raise dead was the one to turn dead bodies into zombies under your command, my bad.

The fights that took about 4 turns to get to the enemy were ones the DM had the guys come from the opposite side of the area we were in from me so I had to maneuver around a bunch of objects and over a bunch of crap to get to them.

[DarkOne-Rob]

As a DM and a player I want to echo two things mentioned above:
1. No gaming is better than bad gaming. If you aren't having fun, leave.
2. D&D/PF/RPGs-in-general are social games in which everyone should have a say on what is going to happen. They are cooperative activities, not antagonistic ones. No one should "win" or "lose" when you play, and your DMs' attitudes are clearly hostile to that idea. If they want to write a story, they should do so - without you there wasting your time. If they want to play a game, you as a player must have the ability to influence what happens and how it happens.

I wouldn't play in such a game. Good luck on your decision.

My 2cp.

[Andreaz]

Things are looking terrible for you, bud. Your DM is inventing rules, being unnecessarily obtrusive and, worst of all, doesn't seem to care for the enjoyment of the players.

Providing a challenge does not equate being punitive. Games like yours I skip without thinking twice. Games of mine that turn like that get an immediate revamp, no questions asked.

[Firest Kathon]

And yes, it counts as medium instead of heavy, that's literally what the material does.
Pathfinder rules that while mithral armor counts as one category lighter in regards to encumbrance (e.g. run speed), you still need armor proficiency in the original category. 3.5 does not rule this, but could be interpreted as such, depending on whether you include proficiency in the "other limitations" clause or not.

Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.

This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor [...]
In any case, they could just spend a feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyHeavy), class abilities would not be affected.


Raise Dead isn't evil. Even if it were, there are no restrictions on Good characters casting Evil spells.
There is a restriction for Clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#chaoticEvilGoodandLawfulSpells), they may not cast spells of opposing alignment:

A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

[Keldrin]

Whoa. Flashback to some of my early experience playing back in the day (late '70s, early '80s), and not in a good way.
Very young DMs or older? The bad old days seemed to have a style that the DM should do everything in their power to keep the players down. On the other end young guys can get into a competitive mode, "me vs. the players" without realising that it's not about the DM "winning".
The good news is, it gets better. The bad? Probably not with these guys.
My core group of friends and I evolved and grew into the game together, once we shucked off the horrible "teachers" we first played with.
Good luck : )

[Ferronach]

AFaiK illiteracy doesn't affect how many languages you can speak. If you have an int of 14 you should get your bonus languages just like anyone else and it's simple enough to spend two skill points of you do want to know how to read and write them.

If they want to skrew you over for being illiterate and turning that into meaning stupid then seriously consider this. 2 skill points in order for you to not be considered stupid is worth it if you ask me.


So, I'm in my first ever D&D campaign, we're using 3.5, and I'm enjoying it so far but not as much as I know I could. After looking around at what other people have been doing and the general discussions and whatnot I've started to wonder if our GMs (we have two that tend to alternate) are a lot more strict about things or have some strange house rules. From what I've read online there seems to be a lot of freedom on characters and how to play but I feel a bit constrained as our party Barbarian (party is all CG with a NG healer). So I guess what I'm wondering is if these are normal things in D&D and how what kind of things I can try to have a bit more character freedom or make the character more fun. Also, since we have a few people that are new or haven't played in a long time things are strictly 3.5 players handbook and GM guide only. No prestige classes or add-on books in our adventure.

Sounds like a pretty restricted game but you do have options. Also, as has been previously mentioned, alot of the build concepts on this site are theoretical gamebreaking monstrocities :P Joking aside, DnD is about having fun and having the freedom to make the character you feel best embodies the image you have in your mind as wanting to play. The books specifically talk about multiclassing and prestiege classes so I would read up on those and then show the passages to the Dm(s) and ask why sections of the only books that they allowed are not allowed.


-Whenever we are in a town the GMs seem to love putting me in social situations where, unless I roll a natural 20, I wind up in a fight with the guards or attacked by shopkeepers.
-Alignment seems to be a huge part of our limitations in game but from reading online it seems like most people don't factor it in. ... It also grinds me a bit since in town I can't just slice up the guards or shopkeepers that keep trying to kill or arrest me. It also means I can't use my barbarians one social skill (intimidate) in town according to them.

This sounds very painful as being big burly ugly and intimidating is kinda your thing (As a barbarian)... The no intimidate mate be from playing DDO where you can only intimidate outside of "town" areas. in pnp DnD this is bull. Next time, I would let the guard rough you up a bit and tell the DM that for every blow taken you are rolling D%. The first blow has a 1-10% chance of triggering your rage, the second a 1-20% the third a 1-30% etc. Then proceed to rage and slaughter a bunch of the guards/shopkeepers and do general destruction. When rage wears off pull a "what have I done!?!?" go to the church and pray for forgiveness. see if the DM learned anything.

Alternatively you could just avoid towns. get a party membebr you trust to buy things for you on your behalf. When the DMs tell you you cant split the party tell them that they obviously see a barbarian as someone that lives in the wilds and has absolutely no place being in a civilised setting and as such you are merely rolling with what they give you by playing a barbarian who is intimidated by the large amount of people in towns etc.



-When we started they were adamant that Barbarians can only wear hide or leather armors. They decided to loosen up on that a bit eventually and I was allowed to get a breastplate.
-I had mentioned being excited about being able to wear Mithril full-plate in the late game and they pretty much said "Never going to happen" because Mithril, they said, is an elven material and they would never make something for humans with it, especially a barbarian. Also they say that despite being Mithril and counting as Medium armor it is still heavy armor so I couldn't wear it since I only have light and medium skill. So no armor or items of Mithril items for me ever since the rest of the 6 man party is elves, other than the gnome cleric.

This is flat out bull.
But it seems you have no wiggle room so: Guaranteed some elves wearing mithral have died trying to kill some baddies. The baddies then sold the gear or were killed by stronger adventurers who then sold the gear. Magical armour (+1 etc) resizes to the wearer (AFAIK based on what I have always experienced) so buying an old set should be fairly simple. That or get one of your party members to buy a set for you.


So, again wondering if these are normal things in a D&D campaign or if these are a bit more strict than normal and if anyone has any advice on how I can try and get a bit more flexibility with my character and try and make him more fun. Where we are currently, we are able to get a magic weapon, item, or armor with our coin so any items you think could be helpful would be great. I have 250 platinum and the limits are no mithril and sounds like we have a GM mercy and only have to pay 50% of the cost of the magic so that opens things up a bit more. Only magic Item I have so far is Gauntlets of Ogres Strength (+2 STR0 and am 6th lvl Barbarian using a greatsword as my main weapon.

If you charisma isnt too low, skrew the DM over and take the Leadership feat. This feat will allow you to get a cohort with social graces to do your talking for you and eventually build an army. Get your cohort to take leadership (will be effective as high social skills and high charisma will work in their favor) and buld that army faster. XD

As has been said numerous times though: No gaming is better than bad gaming.
If you are not having fun and are feeling frustrated, talk to the DM(s) and tell them that you are seriously considering leaving the game because of how they are running things but would like to give them a second chance to keep you. If they even care about you and the game this should be a wakeup call.
Talk to you fellow players and discuss your concerns with them and mention the whole "smite the party" thing and see what they think. I would wager that they would not be cool with this.

[Knaight]

-Whenever we are in a town the GMs seem to love putting me in social situations where, unless I roll a natural 20, I wind up in a fight with the guards or attacked by shopkeepers.
This is dubious at best. It represents a poorly designed setting more than anything.


-When we started they were adamant that Barbarians can only wear hide or leather armors. They decided to loosen up on that a bit eventually and I was allowed to get a breastplate.
This is a houserule.


-I had mentioned being excited about being able to wear Mithril full-plate in the late game and they pretty much said "Never going to happen" because Mithril, they said, is an elven material and they would never make something for humans with it, especially a barbarian. Also they say that despite being Mithril and counting as Medium armor it is still heavy armor so I couldn't wear it since I only have light and medium skill. So no armor or items of Mithril items for me ever since the rest of the 6 man party is elves, other than the gnome cleric.
These are house rules, along with some dubious favoritism, and some questionable setting design.


-Alignment seems to be a huge part of our limitations in game but from reading online it seems like most people don't factor it in. For us it means casters can't use any spells that could be considered evil and the GMs consider pretty much anything with necromancy evil so no raising dead or enchantments that would use necromancy for us. It also grinds me a bit since in town I can't just slice up the guards or shopkeepers that keep trying to kill or arrest me. It also means I can't use my barbarians one social skill (intimidate) in town according to them.
The way alignment is supposed to work is that your alignment changes to match your actions. The way it seems to be working is that the GM tells you you can't do anything that they don't feel matches your alignment. It's blatant railroading, and even by blatant railroading standards it's pretty audacious.


-I try and hold my rage skill for when I'm about to hit the enemy in fights but I've been told I'm doing it wrong and should rage at the very beginning when we roll initiative. Even though it could be up to 4 turns before I can hit a guy from then which would mean about half the rage just goes to waste.
Are they telling you your tactics or bad, or that you have to rage early? If it's the former, ignore them. If it's the latter, that's another red flag.


So definitely not a normal setting, heh. Any ideas on things I could try to give my guy some more flexibility? I've been feeling like I'm stuck with very few options, but then I'm still new and could be missing great opportunities because I haven't thought of things.
Quit the game and find one with a GM who is less of a control freak. You're stuck with very few options because the GM has gone out of their way to cut them off.

[Nibbens]

I'm going to echo what was said earlier - "Vote with your feet." You don't need to put up with the kind of abuse you're talking about.

I'm also going to disagree with what was said earlier - "Bad gaming is better than no gaming." - Nah, i don't agree. From what you're saying about being aggravated 70% of the time, and only having fun 30% then it's in your best interest to head to your local gameshop, find the "players wanted" board (every shop has one) and get a new group. You're bound to find like minded individuals who are playing a game that's more in line with what you're wanting. Secondly, if this is not an option - I can think of plenty of things I can do where I get a better ratio of enjoyment in my life than 30/70... Videogames, reading a book, painting, macrame...

The point is, you have plenty of options - even if these guys are your friends - leaving their game doesn't mean you hate them, it just means you prefer something else, and that's okay.

[Greenish]

Magical armour (+1 etc) resizes to the wearer (AFAIK based on what I have always experienced) so buying an old set should be fairly simple.Magical armour doesn't automatically resize by the rules, though, and given that the DM has already established he doesn't want the character in question to get mithril armour, it seems unlikely that he'd house rule this in the PC's favour.

[Edit]:
I'm also going to disagree with what was said earlier - "Bad gaming is better than no gaming." - Nah, i don't agree.No one has said that (at least, in this thread). Quite a few have stated the opposite.

[Vhaidara]

I'm also going to disagree with what was said earlier - "Bad gaming is better than no gaming."

You inverted. The phrase is "No gaming is better than bad gaming". In case there is confusion, no gaming in this case is meant to mean not gaming, as opposed to saying that there is no kind of gaming better than bad gaming (we had that mix up with someone recently)

[LooseCannoneer]

Wait, a GM that completely favors elves above all others? Sounds like someone I know.

Just leave.

[Nibbens]

No gaming is better then bad gaming. It's words to live by.

My apologies. I went back and reread what I thought I read... Comprehension fail. lol.

[Deophaun]

Pathfinder rules that while mithral armor counts as one category lighter in regards to encumbrance (e.g. run speed), you still need armor proficiency in the original category. 3.5 does not rule this, but could be interpreted as such, depending on whether you include proficiency in the "other limitations" clause or not.
It would be tough to interpret it this way in 3.5, considering that the mithral chainshirt, scale, chainmail, and breastplate are specifically listed as light, and mithral splint, banded, half-plate, and full-plate are specifically listed as medium.

[Crazysaneman]

Wow that's a lot of stacked newbie DM traps they have fallen into.
If I was you, I would look up your particular issues in the PHB and DMG and bookmark them so you can show them to you DM's. Personally, I like it when my players point out (before game) something I have been doing wrong, so we can adjust accordingly. That being said, if your Dm's won't adjust or can't adjust, no gaming is better than bad gaming. (over and over again let this pound it's way into your mind.)

[oxybe]

@Nibbens : No worries dude. S'all cool.

@OP : Definitely bring up your issues a few days before the actual session. Very few people like having their sessions halted for a discussion on changing the rules of play.

I know a guy who lived out of town and had to drive quite some time to come and play (he now lives in town, so hooray to a not-horrible commute!). Stopping play for a half hour or more trying to plead to the GM would be rude to him and the others who made time out of their schedule to come by and play. Just because you're not having fun doesn't mean you should ruin everyone else's time.

Even doing so right before the session might be a bit rude, since that's usually "setup time", where the other players and the GM get their various materials out & in order and reread over some important passages or look over their stats to doublecheck for accuracy before actual play begins.

I've had sessions where, as a player, I've told other players to bring up stuff with the GM after the session (Do note that this is coming from our group's resident High Lord of Rules Shenanigans: weird rule interactions that don't seem immediately obvious is my calling card). The finer point of rule interpretations, item purchases, retraining, etc... Stuff that can take some time to resolve & muddle over and generally only involve the GM and one player, should be kept out of normal play time and dealt with in a generally non-obtrusive manner.

[Ashtagon]

Disclaimer: I one of the more old-schooley types on this site.


... No prestige classes or add-on books in our adventure.


Fair enough, as long as everyone was fully aware of that before play. Ditto for the no multiclassing you mentioned later. Houserules are fine as long as the players are made aware of them before it becomes an issue.



-Whenever we are in a town the GMs seem to love putting me in social situations where, unless I roll a natural 20, I wind up in a fight with the guards or attacked by shopkeepers.


This is bad GMing. Unless you are playing a monster race or a character with genuine mental health issues, buying stuff in town and finding a place to rest should be routine with no difficulties unless it is tied to a plot hook.



-When we started they were adamant that Barbarians can only wear hide or leather armors. They decided to loosen up on that a bit eventually and I was allowed to get a breastplate.


Were you aware of this before play began? It's fine as a houserule provided they made sure everyone knew beforehand (and I'd want some other character compensation if my class was to be gimped from RAW).



-I had mentioned being excited about being able to wear Mithril full-plate in the late game and they pretty much said "Never going to happen" because Mithril, they said, is an elven material and they would never make something for humans with it, especially a barbarian. Also they say that despite being Mithril and counting as Medium armor it is still heavy armor so I couldn't wear it since I only have light and medium skill. So no armor or items of Mithril items for me ever since the rest of the 6 man party is elves, other than the gnome cleric.


The default assumption is that mithral is not under any particular restriction by race but again, as a campaign setting feature, it may well be. Unless these elves are psychotically racist though, cross their palms with enough silver (or slay that nest of dragons that's been terrorising the forest for them) and they'd make it for you.



-Alignment seems to be a huge part of our limitations in game but from reading online it seems like most people don't factor it in. For us it means casters can't use any spells that could be considered evil and the GMs consider pretty much anything with necromancy evil so no raising dead or enchantments that would use necromancy for us.


By RAW, good clerics can't cast evil spells anyway. Wizards can though.



It also grinds me a bit since in town I can't just slice up the guards or shopkeepers that keep trying to kill or arrest me. It also means I can't use my barbarians one social skill (intimidate) in town according to them.


In my games, if you slice up guards or shopkeepers, that's assault or murder, leading to the guard capturing you if you are lucky, or the mob mauling you if you aren't. Either way, expect a court trial and a sentence. And an invitation for you and your friends never to show your faces in town again. Communities frown on casual murder for a reason.



-I try and hold my rage skill for when I'm about to hit the enemy in fights but I've been told I'm doing it wrong and should rage at the very beginning when we roll initiative. Even though it could be up to 4 turns before I can hit a guy from then which would mean about half the rage just goes to waste.


This is the GM doing it wrong. You don't have to go hulk till you want to go hulk.

[Coidzor]

Fair enough, as long as everyone was fully aware of that before play. Ditto for the no multiclassing you mentioned later. Houserules are fine as long as the players are made aware of them before it becomes an issue.

Would he have played a Barbarian if he had been made aware of all of the **** he'd have to deal with because of it? And he can't retrain or multiclass out of Barbarian to avoid all of the ****. So, clearly, in this case, these houserules are not fine because the player was not made aware of them before they became an issue. :smalltongue:


This is bad GMing. Unless you are playing a monster race or a character with genuine mental health issues, buying stuff in town and finding a place to rest should be routine with no difficulties unless it is tied to a plot hook.

Even playing as a monster race should be relatively straightforward. Suspicions, a confrontation or two, especially when entering towns, but not wave after wave of suicidal shopkeepers who only survive their attempts at murder because the DM prevents attack rolls or self-defense.


Were you aware of this before play began? It's fine as a houserule provided they made sure everyone knew beforehand (and I'd want some other character compensation if my class was to be gimped from RAW).

Does it seem like they'd have been made aware of it before play began from how they've presented their situation so far? :smallconfused:


The default assumption is that mithral is not under any particular restriction by race but again, as a campaign setting feature, it may well be. Unless these elves are psychotically racist though, cross their palms with enough silver (or slay that nest of dragons that's been terrorising the forest for them) and they'd make it for you.

These elves are psychotically racist and the rest of the gaming group is in on it because OP is the only player with a human character in a party of psychotically racist elves who would sooner murder him than allow him to touch mithril. :smallconfused:


In my games, if you slice up guards or shopkeepers, that's assault or murder, leading to the guard capturing you if you are lucky, or the mob mauling you if you aren't. Either way, expect a court trial and a sentence. And an invitation for you and your friends never to show your faces in town again. Communities frown on casual murder for a reason.

And when the guards try to murder your players for no real reason? :smalltongue:


Neither Drow nor Healer are in the Player's Handbook or the Dungeon Master's Guide. You aren't playing by the same rules everyone else is.

Well, Drow at least are in the Monster Manual going off of their inclusion in the SRD, but, yeah, good catch, I'd missed that bit. The DM violated their own strictures fairly openly by having the Healer class from Miniatures Handbook in there.

[Knaight]

In my games, if you slice up guards or shopkeepers, that's assault or murder, leading to the guard capturing you if you are lucky, or the mob mauling you if you aren't. Either way, expect a court trial and a sentence. And an invitation for you and your friends never to show your faces in town again. Communities frown on casual murder for a reason.

Sure, but the situation here is that a bunch of people attack the PC for no real reason, then the player can't even have the PC try to defend themselves because the DM vetoes the action as "against their alignment". That's a load of railroading crap, and I say that as someone who has GMed a game where there was a TPK precisely because communities frowned enough on casual murder to pay up for some bounty hunters.

[Ashtagon]

Sure, but the situation here is that a bunch of people attack the PC for no real reason, then the player can't even have the PC try to defend themselves because the DM vetoes the action as "against their alignment". That's a load of railroading crap, and I say that as someone who has GMed a game where there was a TPK precisely because communities frowned enough on casual murder to pay up for some bounty hunters.

Oh, now that's a get up and walk scenario right there, not being allowed to defend yourself because you're in town, but the townsfolk are attacking you because reasons.

[TheIronGolem]

-I try and hold my rage skill for when I'm about to hit the enemy in fights but I've been told I'm doing it wrong and should rage at the very beginning when we roll initiative. Even though it could be up to 4 turns before I can hit a guy from then which would mean about half the rage just goes to waste.


Not only are your GM's wrong to say you're supposed to rage at the initiative roll (you legally can't do that anyway, because while raging is a free action you specifically have to do it on your turn), but the way your comment is phrased suggests that your GM's think a "round" means "any character's turn", which needless to say is a profound misunderstanding of the rules. Do they really think that if you're fourth in the initiative count, that three "rounds" have passed when it's your turn to go?

Also, falling back on "The GM is always right, so shut up or else!" is the mark of an inexperienced and/or incompetent GM.

[Xerlith]

Sounds like the DMs know nothing about actual rules of D&D. Walk away, don't look back. Try finding a group online.

[Larrx]

Even playing as a monster race should be relatively straightforward. Suspicions, a confrontation or two, especially when entering towns, but not wave after wave of suicidal shopkeepers who only survive their attempts at murder because the DM prevents attack rolls or self-defense.



This is the only thing in this thread I disagree with (no disrespect meant Coidzor, I hold you in high regard). In the games I run, the PCs are exceptional. Typically they're the only characters allowed to level past 6. They're wealthy, strange, admirable, unsettling. Town encounters are a great dramatic tool to show the players how they've grown and the effect they've had on the community. It should never just be glossed over, it's too valuable.

That being said, it doesn't sound like the GM in question is doing that. It just seems like the GM has some growing up to do. 3.5 is a super fun game OP, if this game goes south (as sounds likely) don't let it sour you to TTRPGs in general.

[Blackhawk748]

In Drow lands, though? They definitely make sure that the non-slave, non-drow know their place.

But even then its less Mwahaha im so much better than you and more *haughty glare*

Honestly ive had great times with Drow, you just need to show them your as crazy as they are. These elves are like videogame Nazi level racists (and thats freakin impressive)

Also, ya just leave, any time a GM springs a houserule like the ones youve got, its time to walk.

[Greenish]

The DM violated their own strictures fairly openly by having the Healer class from Miniatures Handbook in there.I'm pretty sure OP meant healer as in "someone who heals" (probably the gnome cleric mentioned), not the class.

[Doctor Awkward]

So, I'm in my first ever D&D campaign, we're using 3.5, and I'm enjoying it so far but not as much as I know I could. After looking around at what other people have been doing and the general discussions and whatnot I've started to wonder if our GMs (we have two that tend to alternate)are a lot more strict about things or have some strange house rules.

Well the first step is to narrow down precisely what it is you aren't having fun with. One of my friends has a thing he does after each session called 'Thorns and Roses' which is where you make a list of everything that you liked about the session and everything that happened that you didn't like.


From what I've read online there seems to be a lot of freedom on characters and how to play ...but I feel a bit constrained as our party Barbarian (party is all CG with a NG healer). So I guess what I'm wondering is if these are normal things in D&D and how what kind of things I can try to have a bit more character freedom or make the character more fun. Also, since we have a few people that are new or haven't played in a long time things are strictly 3.5 players handbook and GM guide only. No prestige classes or add-on books in our adventure.

I'm never an advocate of Core-Only games, as I find them to lead to far more wildly unbalanced PC groups than allowing everything.
Feeling constrained or bored as the melee guy is pretty normal, especially in a group that contains spellcasters. Rogues and other precision damage dealing builds have to decide when the perfect moment to strike is, where the best place to attack from, how they are going to get away, use tactical positioning to set up flanks...
Casters always have tons of options every day to pick from, where to lay down a spell, what enemies to target first, how to affect the most, which ones are likely to save against which spell...

This is compared to the barbarian, who's strategy (after deciding to use Rage or not) every single round is, "I run up to that guy and hit him."
Oh you can coordinate with a blaster to drop a Fireball first then you run at just the right spot and Great Cleave all of the things to death. Maybe once in a while you can climb a tree or leap down on someone from a tall ledge. But these are just variations of your core strategy, which is hitting things with your Big Stupid Weapon.


-Whenever we are in a town the GMs seem to love putting me in social situations where, unless I roll a natural 20, I wind up in a fight with the guards or attacked by shopkeepers.
Well question number one is, why are you picking fights with the guards? And what world do you live in where the economy is sustained by psychotic shopkeepers that see a giant beefcake of a barbarian with a big ****-off axe and the first thought that goes through their minds is "not only could I, the commoner, take that in a straight-up fight, but it is my sworn duty to do so"?

If the guards are the antagonists here (reasonable, it's not hard to find intolerance if you are traveling the world), then you can always ignore them. If this shopkeeper is a jerk and won't help you, go find one that will. If no one will help you, because reasons, tell another party member what you want and ask them to buy it for you.

Speaking of which, what is the rest of your party doing while all this is happening. If those characters are your friends (or at the very least, your allies) why aren't they shooing the jerkwad guards away?


-When we started they were adamant that Barbarians can only wear hide or leather armors. They decided to loosen up on that a bit eventually and I was allowed to get a breastplate.
Well that's a houserule. It's an odd one, but depending on the nature of the game world, I can see the logic.


-I had mentioned being excited about being able to wear Mithril full-plate in the late game and they pretty much said "Never going to happen" because Mithril, they said, is an elven material and they would never make something for humans with it, especially a barbarian. Also they say that despite being Mithril and counting as Medium armor it is still heavy armor so I couldn't wear it since I only have light and medium skill. So no armor or items of Mithril items for me ever since the rest of the 6 man party is elves, other than the gnome cleric.
Well that's just flat out wrong. In fact, right in the Dungeon Master's Guide there is a specific armor called Mithril Full Plate of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#mithralFullPlateofSpeed), and it explicitly says it counts as medium armor. A houserule is one thing, but not understanding game mechanics is another.
And elves don't really have a monopoly on mithril, unless again, this is something specific to the campaign world they are playing in.


-Alignment seems to be a huge part of our limitations in game but from reading online it seems like most people don't factor it in. For us it means casters can't use any spells that could be considered evil and the GMs consider pretty much anything with necromancy evil so no raising dead or enchantments that would use necromancy for us. It also grinds me a bit since in town I can't just slice up the guards or shopkeepers that keep trying to kill or arrest me. It also means I can't use my barbarians one social skill (intimidate) in town according to them.
Alignment is supposed to be used as a roleplaying guide: a tool to help you decide how your character would respond to a particular situation. It's not a straight jacket that dictates how your character must act at all times. Even though there are spells with the evil descriptor, and certain things, like raising the dead, are always considered an evil act, there are no rules saying that you can't prepare them. Nor will they cause immediate shifts in alignment, since that is a gradual process that takes a very long time to occur.
EDIT: I have to apologize here, because I just realized I misread that. Raising people from the dead is never evil. Ever.
Raising them as UNDEAD is the evil part. And yes, it is always evil.
Intimidating someone into leaving you alone, expressly to avoid combat, is most certainly not evil.


-I try and hold my rage skill for when I'm about to hit the enemy in fights but I've been told I'm doing it wrong and should rage at the very beginning when we roll initiative. Even though it could be up to 4 turns before I can hit a guy from then which would mean about half the rage just goes to waste.
...Yeah now they are just being obnoxious.
Any DM who looks at your character sheet, and approves it, has no right to tell you how to play that character during the actual game.
By their logic, I assume party members wielding a reach weapon wouldn't be fair to the bad guys either?


So, again wondering if these are normal things in a D&D campaign or if these are a bit more strict than normal and if anyone has any advice on how I can try and get a bit more flexibility with my character and try and make him more fun.
No, none of that is "Normal", but other than the things that outright contradict the rules (and even when they do) you are generally at the mercy of the DM when you sit down to play.

Stuck in Core there is very little you can do to change your round-by-round tactics during combat.
If Tome of Battle were an option, I'd suggest taking a level in an initiator class. Warblade could get you some nice maneuvers and would give you some options between rounds other than "Charge" and "Attack".
Book of Exalted Deeds has a prestige class called Champion of Gwynharwyf, which combines divine casting with barbarian class features to get someone who can cast spells while raging. It's sort of like playing a giant angry paladin, and you get a lot of the same spells.

You can always try to take some of the combat maneuver feats like improved grapple, or bull rush. It's far from optimal, but at least it's something else to do, thought I wouldn't expect to have much success with them depending on what you are fighting.

[LooseCannoneer]

They banned multiclassing.

[Arbane]

I've tried asking the GM about it but that always comes to the "The GM is always right, argue and I smite your character or party."

As people have said, this sort of attitude is a big flashing LEAVE NOW warning sign. If any of the other players aren't jerks, keep them in mind when you find or start a better game.

(Personally, I recommend arguing with the GM anyway just to see what form the Pudgy Hand of Ghod takes as it smites you, but I'm a massive troll.)


I'm not familiar with what Dragonlance is, not heard of it before. As for elves, from what I've seen they are all pretty racist and high-and-mighty. Our GM does prefer playing Drow though.

Dragonlance is/was a fairly popular series of D&D based novels. As you might guess from the name, dragons are important to the plot. There have also been D&D modules set in its world, some of which are rather railroady. It also has racist elves and created kender, and is therefore terrible.

[goto124]

I was wondering, if complicated RL situations removes the 'leave now' option, how could OP make the campaign a bit more bearable?

[LooseCannoneer]

As people have said, this sort of attitude is a big flashing LEAVE NOW warning sign. If any of the other players aren't jerks, keep them in mind when you find or start a better game.

(Personally, I recommend arguing with the GM anyway just to see what form the Pudgy Hand of Ghod takes as it smites you, but I'm a massive troll.)



Dragonlance is/was a fairly popular series of D&D based novels. As you might guess from the name, dragons are important to the plot. There have also been D&D modules set in its world, some of which are rather railroady. It also has racist elves and created kender, and is therefore terrible.

I'm ambivalent about the racist elves, but the creation of the Kender is inexusable.

[atemu1234]

I'm ambivalent about the racist elves, but the creation of the Kender is inexusable.

Are kender stealing borrowing this thread too?

[LooseCannoneer]

Are kender stealing borrowing this thread too?

Cue high screechy voice , "Of course, mister!"

Can somebody light the last sentence on fire for me?

[Segev]

Am I the only person who likes Kender, and wishes players would play them up for their disadvantages as well as "advantages?"

(Namely, that the kender's player should almost never be saying, "I steal that." Instead, at camp each night, he should be going through his pack and asking the DM what shiny trinkets he's "found" that day. And return the ones that "fell out" of his allies' packs, with perhaps an admonishment that they should be more careful with their things.)


To the OP: Can you clarify something for me? When you get into a social situation and guards try to kill or arrest you, are they actually drawing weapons and rolling to do damage? If so, does the DM tell you you can't draw your own weapons and fight back, because you're Chaotic Good? Does he honestly expect you to just cower and flee and take damage without so much as lifting a hand to defend yourself?

Is he saying the alignment of these townsfolk and/or guards is Evil, since they ARE attacking you?

Try to paint the image of it such that these guards and townsfolk come off as a mob picking on an innocent just because he looks different. Maybe describe how you hold up your hands and plead with them to stop, begging them to tell you why they hate you so. See if you can paint the situation as the townsfolk and guards being vicious, cruel, vile monsters.



Alternatively, see what happens if you say, "No, my character DOES fight back. And tries to Intimidate them." Does the DM literally say "no, he doesn't?" If so, either get up and walk away, or start rolling up a new character. When asked what you're doing and why, explain that you understand the DM wanted your old PC as a new NPC, so you're leaving the game because you're obviously not needed here, or you're making a new PC because your old one has been appropriated as an NPC.

[Knaight]

I was wondering, if complicated RL situations removes the 'leave now' option, how could OP make the campaign a bit more bearable?

Carefully cultivated apathy? Illicit pharmaceuticals? Showing up drunk? Deliberately getting your character killed then pulling out a Gameboy?

There are no good options here. The above is about all I can think of (or at least representative of the kinds of things that might work), and I'm both a total straight-edge and a strong proponent of player engagement and actually focusing on the game. Basically, the options are leave, or grin and bear it.

[Deophaun]

Am I the only person who likes Kender, and wishes players would play them up for their disadvantages as well as "advantages?"

(Namely, that the kender's player should almost never be saying, "I steal that." Instead, at camp each night, he should be going through his pack and asking the DM what shiny trinkets he's "found" that day. And return the ones that "fell out" of his allies' packs, with perhaps an admonishment that they should be more careful with their things.)
Nope, I like them when played that way. And you get a session or two of panic as the rogue realizes the wand he was counting on isn't in his pack anymore before the other players adapt and set aside time for inventory in the morning.

The one thing is that you really do need a character that is the designated kender minder, otherwise the kender is going to accidentally steal anything that's not nailed down and will leave valuable gems lying on the table when he exits the tavern.

[Ferronach]

Can you clarify something for me? When you get into a social situation and guards try to kill or arrest you, are they actually drawing weapons and rolling to do damage? If so, does the DM tell you you can't draw your own weapons and fight back, because you're Chaotic Good? Does he honestly expect you to just cower and flee and take damage without so much as lifting a hand to defend yourself?

Is he saying the alignment of these townsfolk and/or guards is Evil, since they ARE attacking you?

Try to paint the image of it such that these guards and townsfolk come off as a mob picking on an innocent just because he looks different. Maybe describe how you hold up your hands and plead with them to stop, begging them to tell you why they hate you so. See if you can paint the situation as the townsfolk and guards being vicious, cruel, vile monsters.

Alternatively, see what happens if you say, "No, my character DOES fight back. And tries to Intimidate them." Does the DM literally say "no, he doesn't?" If so, either get up and walk away, or start rolling up a new character. When asked what you're doing and why, explain that you understand the DM wanted your old PC as a new NPC, so you're leaving the game because you're obviously not needed here, or you're making a new PC because your old one has been appropriated as an NPC.

EDIT: probably should say that I agree with Segev here and am merely adding my 2 cents worth.

Being good does not mean lawful, especially when you are chaotic. If your character believes that the guards/shopkeepers/worthless sacks or meat/etc. are committing wrongful or evil deeds (hate crimes, racism etc.) then it is in your alignment to offer them a chance for redemption or be purged…
That and good people can do bad things on occasion without becoming bad. It takes multiple deliberate acts to change your alignment.

[prufock]

I was wondering, if complicated RL situations removes the 'leave now' option, how could OP make the campaign a bit more bearable?
You pull an Old Man Henderson (http://s4.zetaboards.com/Battlehammer/topic/9884566/1/).

[Ferronach]

You pull an Old Man Henderson (http://s4.zetaboards.com/Battlehammer/topic/9884566/1/).

That is flat out one of the best "screw you" characters and stories that I have ever encountered!

[oxybe]

I was wondering, if complicated RL situations removes the 'leave now' option, how could OP make the campaign a bit more bearable?

Pokemon. Pokemon solves many problems.

If, for some reason, you are "forced" to attend this session. Don't be part of it. Whip out the DS and start playing.

Or bring out your laptop, a pair of earphones and watch some cat videos.

I don't know any situation beyond "I live with the GM and they're hosting it at my place" that can force you to be even partially party to a game session you don't care for, but even then you have options. Play the DS! Watch a movie in another room! Laptop+Cat videos! Read a book! Write poetry!

...

Practice your... highland fling?

But still: Don't suffer a bad game. It's not worth it. Leave on amicable terms, that it's not them, it's you who simply doesn't fit with their dynamic and the frustration you're feeling isn't worth the trouble of attending the weekly event.

[Mystral]

-Whenever we are in a town the GMs seem to love putting me in social situations where, unless I roll a natural 20, I wind up in a fight with the guards or attacked by shopkeepers.

What is your charisma? Do you have social modifiers?

That seems a bit overdone, but barbarians can be a bit clumsy in social settings. Just intimidate them into behaving.


-When we started they were adamant that Barbarians can only wear hide or leather armors. They decided to loosen up on that a bit eventually and I was allowed to get a breastplate.

That's fine.


-I had mentioned being excited about being able to wear Mithril full-plate in the late game and they pretty much said "Never going to happen" because Mithril, they said, is an elven material and they would never make something for humans with it, especially a barbarian. Also they say that despite being Mithril and counting as Medium armor it is still heavy armor so I couldn't wear it since I only have light and medium skill. So no armor or items of Mithril items for me ever since the rest of the 6 man party is elves, other than the gnome cleric.

They are in conflict with a sage ruling on this. But if in that world, Mithral is only an elven material and they won't hand it to you, that's something your dm has to decide. But I'm sure you could get it via roleplay. If they are adamant on the whole proficiency thing, take a level in fighter. An extra feat won't hurt, and you'll get the proficiency.


-Alignment seems to be a huge part of our limitations in game but from reading online it seems like most people don't factor it in. For us it means casters can't use any spells that could be considered evil and the GMs consider pretty much anything with necromancy evil so no raising dead or enchantments that would use necromancy for us. It also grinds me a bit since in town I can't just slice up the guards or shopkeepers that keep trying to kill or arrest me. It also means I can't use my barbarians one social skill (intimidate) in town according to them.

Intimidate is not evil. Spells are not evil unless they have [evil] as their subtype.

You mean animating dead, yes? Raising dead is bringing people back to life, what the clerics do.

As for those pesky guards, non-lethal damage is your friend. They shouldn't be a big problem for you. Just take -4 on your attack or buy yourself a sap or truncheon.


-I try and hold my rage skill for when I'm about to hit the enemy in fights but I've been told I'm doing it wrong and should rage at the very beginning when we roll initiative. Even though it could be up to 4 turns before I can hit a guy from then which would mean about half the rage just goes to waste.

Raging is a free action, you can do it whenever you please, or not at all (not every fight requires a barbarian to rage).


So, again wondering if these are normal things in a D&D campaign or if these are a bit more strict than normal and if anyone has any advice on how I can try and get a bit more flexibility with my character and try and make him more fun. Where we are currently, we are able to get a magic weapon, item, or armor with our coin so any items you think could be helpful would be great. I have 250 platinum and the limits are no mithril and sounds like we have a GM mercy and only have to pay 50% of the cost of the magic so that opens things up a bit more. Only magic Item I have so far is Gauntlets of Ogres Strength (+2 STR0 and am 6th lvl Barbarian using a greatsword as my main weapon.

They're not more strict, they are playing with some strange houserules that they pretend to be the real rules because it's what they thing is right.

For that money, you can't get that much. Is your sword masterwork? If yes, have it enchanted. If no, get a masterwork sword. Enchanted weapons are neccessary to damage many creatures. Other possibilities present themselves, but for that, we would need to know your available resources.

[oxybe]

if you're going to post Henderson, you have to post the full 1d4chan article (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Old_Man_Henderson). It also includes parts of discussions between "Waffle House Millionaire" (Henderson) and "A Self Called 'Nowhere'" (a player and somewhat guilty party to the creation of Henderson). ASCN and WHM bring even more Henderson stories to the fore. The Director's Cuts these guys provide are glorious.

[Mystral]

Ah, I thought I had included that we aren't allowed multiclass. Just straight core class. I thought I'd mentioned that but realized I completely missed it, my apologies. Deity for my guy is Kord since I needed a CG one that would fit a barbarian.

The illiteracy thing can be a pain but I've managed to find some fun loopholes with it since my guy has an Int. of 14. I've been able to get our bard to teach me some basic Draconian phrases and insults for taunting and intimidating and the same with Demonic from our sorcerer. I may not be able to read it but I can speak it a little. Also, it's more fun than it should be to make the rest of the party read things to me so I kind of like the illiteracy.

You can buy literacy for 2 skill points.

[Coidzor]

Am I the only person who likes Kender, and wishes players would play them up for their disadvantages as well as "advantages?"

(Namely, that the kender's player should almost never be saying, "I steal that." Instead, at camp each night, he should be going through his pack and asking the DM what shiny trinkets he's "found" that day. And return the ones that "fell out" of his allies' packs, with perhaps an admonishment that they should be more careful with their things.)

Their disadvantages are all primarily to the rest of the party. Oh, we were trying to find something out? Nope, Kender's going to go walk up and activate the shiny alarm. Needed the artifact of doom to be at place X at Y time and took pains to make sure you had it in your possession every round before this? Nope, Kender stole it despite having never been within 30 feet of it and being on the opposite side of the dungeon. Trying to sneak by a dragon? Nope, Kender's going to go headbutt the damned thing.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

[Arbane]

You pull an Old Man Henderson (http://s4.zetaboards.com/Battlehammer/topic/9884566/1/).

And then come back here and tell us about it! Trekkin hasn't posted any new horror stories in months.

[Dimers]

You inverted. The phrase is "No gaming is better than bad gaming". In case there is confusion, no gaming in this case is meant to mean not gaming, as opposed to saying that there is no kind of gaming better than bad gaming (we had that mix up with someone recently)

How about "Zero gaming is greater than negative gaming"?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Power Attack, Leap Attack, two-handed weapon.

Pick up Deep Impact (by spending a couple of feats on psionic stuff), rage, charge.

If something survives the first hit, you might want to pick up something like... Was it Shocktrooper that let you keep the damage from Power Attack after a charge?

Rather than deal with stuff like guards, just point out that (one of the elves in the party) is your 'boss' and that 'I jus' duz whut boss says'.

If that doesn't (solve your problem/cause hilarity) then you should probably think about walking.

"Not gaming is better than putting up with a sucky game that simply frustrates you."

[MukkTB]

TBH what I read about Henderson makes me think the DM wasn't all bad. The DM let Henderson do a lot of crazy **** instead of just killing him.

D&D is a cooperative game that requires both the players and the DMs consent. If the DM is behaving dictatorially in game all you have to do is stand up and walk away from the table. The only other point to make is that you should make some kind of attempt to communicate with the DM before you activate the foot veto. Its a nuclear option.

[Doctor Awkward]

TBH what I read about Henderson makes me think the DM wasn't all bad. The DM let Henderson do a lot of crazy **** instead of just killing him.

Haven't played much CoC have you?

Combat in that system is a last resort, and is almost invariably lethal. And even when it does happen it's almost always against mortal cultists. Conjuring even the lowest minion of an Old One for a player to fight is basically the same thing as "just killing them", barring miracle dice rolls.

And did you read the part at the end where the DM actually flipped the gaming table? That's beyond petty.

[CursedRhubarb]

Wow, didn't get any email notices and thoight the thread had died, looks like I was wrong XD. Thank you all for the input and I think I'm going to have to try the trick of pointing to the elves and saying tjey're the boss, I jist do what I'm told. Maybe redirect some of that aggro.

Okay, to help clarify a few things, walking out isn't an easy option as GF is the GM. (Which could explain a bit now that I think on it) and it's hosted atnour place.

The horrible shopkeeper/guard scenario (I found it not that fun, everyone else thought it hilarious... Go figure with elves) was with the rest of the party a bit scattered in town to handle personal business, buying, selling, looking for quest leads king nd of things. I went to the blacksmith thinking I'd up my gear to masterwork armor and sword. No one was there so I went next door to the bakery to try and find out if anyone knew when he'd be back. Baker lady tries to force me to buy bread (no meat in the place, who but elves gets bread and no meat?) When I refised she strows the bread down and starts screaming, a handfil of guards came in and she says I hit her and tried to wreck the shop. Guarda draw and try to arreat, I try to explain the situation and the shopkeeper continues to wail and cry. I have to roll a Diplomacy check. I get 20 (roll of 19 + Charisma mod of 1) dm says "just short, the guards believe her and try to arrest you." To avoid killing them I slam the door on thwm as I ran and got chased through the city and now there is a wanted poster in town for me.

Later found the baker in an inn and decided to get revenge. Got a solid unarmed blow to her face but then our cleric believed her story and I would have fought our cleric and a bunch of drunkards then if the GM hadn't decided to calm things down. (My plan was to pick up the gnome cleric and use her as a hammer on the baker and drunks then throw her through the wall. Kinda sad I didn't get to. XD)

When we began we all knew about the no multiclassing or prestiege class thing for it which doesn't bug me. A core Barbarian looks like he can be pretty scary going all barbarian. My plan for him, with what feats I'll get as I level, is to go with the spring attack and greater cleave chains since with my amoumt of movement I'd be able to get in, hit, then back up enough to get an AoO if they come at me.

On another curious note, how does wealth normally go in a normal game? I keep being told that at 2,500gp my character would be considered very rich and has more than a baron or lord would have and a normal person only would have a handful of copper or less than 50 silver coins. But then I look at the cost of, say, a ring of protection +1 and I think "no way am I rich when the cheapest ring would take all I have."

Also, I had confused the terms on things, as my first d&d game I'm used to raise dead being the zombie maker and something like resurrection being the back to life spell. Also not used to the person that heals the party also being a tank, and also using combat spells. It's weird, clerics make no sense with how indecisive they are in their roll.

[Flickerdart]

On another curious note, how does wealth normally go in a normal game? I keep being told that at 2,500gp my character would be considered very rich and has more than a baron or lord would have and a normal person only would have a handful of copper or less than 50 silver coins. But then I look at the cost of, say, a ring of protection +1 and I think "no way am I rich when the cheapest ring would take all I have."
A baron is much richer than that. Most of his wealth is in his castle and estate though.

There's a table of approximately how much a character of every level should have (called wealth by level) in the DMG, page 135. Adventurers, especially at higher levels, are fabulously wealthy which is fitting because they are also obscenely powerful.

[Deophaun]

The horrible shopkeeper/guard scenario (I found it not that fun, everyone else thought it hilarious... Go figure with elves) was with the rest of the party a bit scattered in town to handle personal business, buying, selling, looking for quest leads king nd of things. I went to the blacksmith thinking I'd up my gear to masterwork armor and sword. No one was there so I went next door to the bakery to try and find out if anyone knew when he'd be back. Baker lady tries to force me to buy bread (no meat in the place, who but elves gets bread and no meat?) When I refised she strows the bread down and starts screaming, a handfil of guards came in and she says I hit her and tried to wreck the shop. Guarda draw and try to arreat, I try to explain the situation and the shopkeeper continues to wail and cry. I have to roll a Diplomacy check. I get 20 (roll of 19 + Charisma mod of 1) dm says "just short, the guards believe her and try to arrest you." To avoid killing them I slam the door on thwm as I ran and got chased through the city and now there is a wanted poster in town for me.
OK, a few things. First: The baker rolls a Bluff check. The guards roll Sense Motive. You can try for Diplomacy to improve the guards' attitude towards you. Assuming the guards were unfriendly towards you, your roll was good enough to move them to indifferent. Wouldn't have solved your issue, but a magistrate (which should be trained in Sense Motive) should have been able to see through the baker's lies. Especially as, seeing how brazen she was about it, she's done this before. (Come to think about it, the guards probably should have been suspicious, +5 to the Bluff DC to beat Sense Motive)

Later found the baker in an inn and decided to get revenge. Got a solid unarmed blow to her face...
Mistake.

...but then our cleric believed her story
Tell your Cleric that he shouldn't have dumped his Wisdom score.

Also, I had confused the terms on things, as my first d&d game I'm used to raise dead being the zombie maker and something like resurrection being the back to life spell. Also not used to the person that heals the party also being a tank, and also using combat spells. It's weird, clerics make no sense with how indecisive they are in their roll.
The cleric's roll is to be better in combat than a combat class. The healing role goes to whoever can UMD a wand of lesser vigor.

[Greenish]

Cleric is a core full caster, they can do whatever they want.

Spring Attack is pretty bad (no iterative attacks), Great Cleave is only useful against things that probably wouldn't be much of a threat anyway. Not that core-only had that many good feats available, granted.

[Vhaidara]

Tell your Cleric that he shouldn't have dumped his Wisdom score.

I think the baker probably got a sizeable circumstance bonus to the Bluff of "He assaulted me earlier" following the assault in the tavern.

Honestly, you're only mistake was actually assaulting the baker later on.

[CursedRhubarb]

A baron is much richer than that. Most of his wealth is in his castle and estate though.

There's a table of approximately how much a character of every level should have (called wealth by level) in the DMG, page 135. Adventurers, especially at higher levels, are fabulously wealthy which is fitting because they are also obscenely powerful.

Thanks, took a peek on google for it and yeah...we are slumming it pretty bad huh? Ah well.

[CursedRhubarb]

The cleric's roll is to be better in combat than a combat class. The healing role goes to whoever can UMD a wand of lesser vigor.

So why would there be roles other than Cleric? Sounds like there isn't a reason since a cleric can do it all. Which seems really odd since you shouldn't be able to be an ace of all suits with zero drawback.

[Kesnit]

Okay, to help clarify a few things, walking out isn't an easy option as GF is the GM. (Which could explain a bit now that I think on it) and it's hosted at our place.

This actually makes sense. There are tons of horror stories about GM's that favor their SO. I can see your GF making an effort to NOT favor you, and going too far in the opposite direction.


On another curious note, how does wealth normally go in a normal game? I keep being told that at 2,500gp my character would be considered very rich and has more than a baron or lord would have and a normal person only would have a handful of copper or less than 50 silver coins. But then I look at the cost of, say, a ring of protection +1 and I think "no way am I rich when the cheapest ring would take all I have."

It is possible to play a low-wealth game, but it takes a lot of work on the part of the DM and players. Much of the CR system (bad as it is) is based on the idea that PCs will have appropriate wealth for their level. If she's cutting your finances that much, she'll also have to cut back on the kind of encounters the party can face.


So why would there be roles other than Cleric? Sounds like there isn't a reason since a cleric can do it all. Which seems really odd since you shouldn't be able to be an ace of all suits with zero drawback.

Because WotC overunderestimated what spells can do when they made caster classes.

[Flickerdart]

So why would there be roles other than Cleric? Sounds like there isn't a reason since a cleric can do it all.
You could also be a wizard or a druid.



Which seems really odd since you shouldn't be able to be an ace of all suits with zero drawback.
Welcome to 3.5.

[Greenish]

Because WotC overestimated what spells can do when they made caster classes.Really? To me it seems they did the opposite.

[BRC]

So why would there be roles other than Cleric? Sounds like there isn't a reason since a cleric can do it all. Which seems really odd since you shouldn't be able to be an ace of all suits with zero drawback.
It's poor design, not intended.

The Intention is for the Cleric to be a support class, the Fighter/Barbarian to be reliable frontline, the Rogue to be high damage in certain situations with lots of utility, and the Wizard to be a combination of damage, support, and utility.

But, due to a variety of factors, it didn't end up that way. People have been picking 3.5 apart for years.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Also, I had confused the terms on things, as my first d&d game I'm used to raise dead being the zombie maker and something like resurrection being the back to life spell. Also not used to the person that heals the party also being a tank, and also using combat spells. It's weird, clerics make no sense with how indecisive they are in their roll.

Clerics are a little like the people who went on real-world crusades (as are paladins, what with where that term comes from, and all), and basically fight (among other things) for their god's will/wishes/beliefs/ecetera.

...Except, y'know, said god rewards said faith and diligence with literal power to back up said faith.

You're confusing a Cleric (the class) with someone who doesn't have the ability to throw raw hurt, granted by their faith and fealty to some guy who lives in the sky (hyperbole, slightly, I know). A guy who could spit at a hill giant, and probably kill it, on an average roll.

Gods tend to not want squishies doing their bidding, they go squish, make a mess, don't do a lot of the bidding.

[Callin]

All I gotta say is "Wow"


Girlfriend or not nobody should have to suffer like that.

[CursedRhubarb]

Much of the CR system (bad as it is) is based on the idea that PCs will have appropriate wealth for their level. If she's cutting your finances that much, she'll also have to cut back on the kind of encounters the party can face.

I can definately see that. Oir last encounter was a single CR 7 creature ( some lion thing made out of light or fire, invisible if it's near a light source other than itself) and we were a party of six lvl 5 PCs. Would have killed the rogue on it's very first attack if the GM didn't decide to nerf it's damage a bit, still left the elf with 3hp and prone. Only person that could hit it was me ( yay for +1BAB per level) and the sorcerer, (magic misslles are interesting things) because it's AC was high enough that the others had to roll about 17 or higher before their BAB would get them high enough to hit it. It also would could have killed any of the others but myself and the cleric in a single blow thanks to our low hp and crappy AC since no one had anything of masterwork or magical armor quality to raise their AC. Myself, I'm stuck at 17 AC and now 73hp at lvl 6 but it looks like most lings we would fight from here on can hit me with a roll of 2. This could be very painful from this point on.

[Kesnit]

Really? To me it seems they did the opposite.

:smallredface: Brain mistake. I fixed my post.

[Segev]

My suggestion is, next time the baker or some other NPC who is of that stripe tries to extort you by screaming that you did something, Intimiadate her. Remind your DM that Intimidation is not evil when used to scare somebody straight, and that's all you're doing. You're Intimidating her into admitting she made it all up.

Also, do mention to the DM that that kind of behavior on the baker's part is outright criminal in most civilized communities. She's lucky an adventurer of a less Good stripe hasn't just silenced her permanently.

If you want to capitalize on the situation your DM has provided you, you could go all the way with the reputation: Intimidate people by using the "fact" that you've already ruined the baker's life and that the guards can't touch you; use your wanted posters to scare people into kowtowing. Then turn it on the guards; tell them about how their fellows obviously must have suffered greatly, since you're still free and they tried to arrest you. Each time you do this, increase the number of guards you've "bested." It's not even a lie: you've intimidated them into acquiescing.

If your DM says you're being evil, remind her that the alternative is to stand and fight and possibly kill these people. You're just living up to the role they've assigned you (and at 14 int, you could think of such a plan), and are striving to keep them too Intimidated to do anything stupid.

If you give as well as take - actually dish out hurt to those who are doing wrong to others, for instance - the fact that people fear you should combine with a sense of grudging gratitude such that attacking you is stupid, and ganging up to attack you is not something they've got cause to do.

If your party's coming back to town regularly, make sure to bring trophies from your kills, too. An ogre head mounted on a pike (even if you don't wield said pike) can go a long way towards making people think twice about the guy who's carrying it.

[Ferronach]

Myself, I'm stuck at 17 AC and now 73hp at lvl 6 but it looks like most lings we would fight from here on can hit me with a roll of 2. This could be very painful from this point on.

Barbarians don't really rely on AC. It is more for Fighters, clerics and paladins.
Barbarians live by having dodge chances, uncanny dodge, miss chances, mobility and a large amount of HP.

[Deophaun]

If you want to capitalize on the situation your DM has provided you, you could go all the way with the reputation: Intimidate people by using the "fact" that you've already ruined the baker's life and that the guards can't touch you; use your wanted posters to scare people into kowtowing. Then turn it on the guards; tell them about how their fellows obviously must have suffered greatly, since you're still free and they tried to arrest you. Each time you do this, increase the number of guards you've "bested." It's not even a lie: you've intimidated them into acquiescing.
And 1d6X10 minutes later, all the unfriendly people you've intimidated turn hostile to you and you get to best them for real.

[CursedRhubarb]

Barbarians don't really rely on AC. It is more for Fighters, clerics and paladins.
Barbarians live by having dodge chances, uncanny dodge, miss chances, mobility and a large amount of HP.

What would a good, relatively cheap, way be to increase dodge chance, luck, and deflection or add miss chance?

I have improved uncanny dodge already but that just prevents me from being flanked or becoming flat-footed unless imobilized. Doesn't let me avoid hits.

Mobility I'll get with the next feat or two but I don't remember it making it so can avoid hits either but it's been a while since I looked at feats so I'll go back and look into it.

The high hp really helps, but when you can't avoid any hits at all it doesn't matter so much. The cleric has abput 30 hp less than I do but lasts longer in fights because she can barely ever get hit. We had a fight early on where we each had a small group of kobalds on us, I wound up nearly dead, getting hit by 4 of them 1st turn and 1 less each turn after, she was still at full and never got touched. So high hp doesn't feel like it is better than AC to me. At least not with physical damage. I don't remember if spells need to roll against AC or not.

[Segev]

And 1d6X10 minutes later, all the unfriendly people you've intimidated turn hostile to you and you get to best them for real.Or you Intimidate them again. Yeah, they're mad later, but one good Initimidation of an angry NPC, and he's reminded WHY he was afraid of you enough to put up with something that made him angry.


What would a good, relatively cheap, way be to increase dodge chance, luck, and deflection or add miss chance?

I have improved uncanny dodge already but that just prevents me from being flanked or becoming flat-footed unless imobilized. Doesn't let me avoid hits.Mostly, raise your dexterity if possible. Magic items help, spells from allies help. Ask your party cleric or wizard if they'll cast Cat's Grace and Bull's Strength on you for big fights. They'll help.

Smoke sticks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#smokestick) will let you keep your melee foes as the only ones who don't have a 50% miss chance (and give them a 20% one...at the expense of giving you the same). If you pick up Blind Fighting, you can at least roll your 20% miss chance twice; you have only a 4% chance of it coming up "bad" twice.

What's your weapon of choice? You can wield a shield, which is another +2 to your AC, if you have a free hand. That does come at the expense of getting to add your strength-and-a-half to damage, though, which barbarians particularly like doing with two-handed weapons.

If you can afford it, 750 gp will buy you a Healing Belt, which (among other things) gives you 3 charges per day to spend on some personal healing. That should help. It's in the Magic Item Compendium.

[Coidzor]

Okay, to help clarify a few things, walking out isn't an easy option as GF is the GM. (Which could explain a bit now that I think on it) and it's hosted atnour place.

Hoo boy. I'm sorry you didn't find out you were in the dog house until you started playing. You got some relationship issues to work out, then.

[CursedRhubarb]

Or you Intimidate them again. Yeah, they're mad later, but one good Initimidation of an angry NPC, and he's reminded WHY he was afraid of you enough to put up with something that made him angry.

Mostly, raise your dexterity if possible. Magic items help, spells from allies help. Ask your party cleric or wizard if they'll cast Cat's Grace and Bull's Strength on you for big fights. They'll help.

Smoke sticks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#smokestick) will let you keep your melee foes as the only ones who don't have a 50% miss chance (and give them a 20% one...at the expense of giving you the same). If you pick up Blind Fighting, you can at least roll your 20% miss chance twice; you have only a 4% chance of it coming up "bad" twice.

What's your weapon of choice? You can wield a shield, which is another +2 to your AC, if you have a free hand. That does come at the expense of getting to add your strength-and-a-half to damage, though, which barbarians particularly like doing with two-handed weapons.

If you can afford it, 750 gp will buy you a Healing Belt, which (among other things) gives you 3 charges per day to spend on some personal healing. That should help. It's in the Magic Item Compendium.

I will have to look into the belt.

My weapon of choice is the greatsword but I'm starting to wonder if I should switch since I've tried to plan ahead on how I would want to improve it as game progresses, but hitting the gm wall of ***** there too. (Keen+thundering or shocking burst considered too strong, and told that adamanitine is not likely going to be allowed, at least for weapons)

I wantes to get a shield with animate so I'd get the shield AC boost while keeping my 2H sword but, again, told no, too strong.

[Deophaun]

Or you Intimidate them again. Yeah, they're mad later, but one good Initimidation of an angry NPC, and he's reminded WHY he was afraid of you enough to put up with something that made him angry.
So, you take 1 minute trying to intimidate them again, while they get 10 rounds to attack you. Sounds solid.

[Arbane]

Honestly, you're only mistake was actually assaulting the baker later on.

Hey, if you're gonna get punished, might as well earn it.


So why would there be roles other than Cleric? Sounds like there isn't a reason since a cleric can do it all. Which seems really odd since you shouldn't be able to be an ace of all suits with zero drawback.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Caster Supremacy, aka "3.5".


And 1d6X10 minutes later, all the unfriendly people you've intimidated turn hostile to you and you get to best them for real.

They become 'hostile', not 'suicidal'.


What would a good, relatively cheap, way be to increase dodge chance, luck, and deflection or add miss chance?

Unfortunately, magic items. Or buff spells from your unhelpful alleged teammates.



The high hp really helps, but when you can't avoid any hits at all it doesn't matter so much. The cleric has abput 30 hp less than I do but lasts longer in fights because she can barely ever get hit. We had a fight early on where we each had a small group of kobalds on us, I wound up nearly dead, getting hit by 4 of them 1st turn and 1 less each turn after, she was still at full and never got touched. So high hp doesn't feel like it is better than AC to me. At least not with physical damage. I don't remember if spells need to roll against AC or not.

If you're taking all the hits for the team, you ARE going to suffer. Your supposed teammates need to help you out there. Spells generally either target touch AC or auto-hit but you get a saving throw.



My weapon of choice is the greatsword but I'm starting to wonder if I should switch since I've tried to plan ahead on how I would want to improve it as game progresses, but hitting the gm wall of ***** there too. (Keen+thundering or shocking burst considered too strong, and told that adamanitine is not likely going to be allowed, at least for weapons)

I wantes to get a shield with animate so I'd get the shield AC boost while keeping my 2H sword but, again, told no, too strong.

Greatsword is just fine for a barbarian.
If she thinks you're 'too powerful', ask her what she expects the musclebound guy with a big sword to DO that's not beating things to death. (You could spend a few fights NOT charging in first to let the rest of the party share the pain, but that would be rude.)

She's your girlfriend, right? You need to sit down with her and ask her WHY she's giving you so much grief compared to everyone else.

[Knaight]

Okay, to help clarify a few things, walking out isn't an easy option as GF is the GM. (Which could explain a bit now that I think on it) and it's hosted atnour place.

That does close off the option of using some BS excuse to leave - you can't really claim nonexistent scheduling problems. With that said, all the options that actually should see general use are still on the table. Just say that you're not having fun and would rather do something else, and you should be in the clear.

[Ferronach]

What would a good, relatively cheap, way be to increase dodge chance, luck, and deflection or add miss chance?

I have improved uncanny dodge already but that just prevents me from being flanked or becoming flat-footed unless imobilized. Doesn't let me avoid hits.

Mobility I'll get with the next feat or two but I don't remember it making it so can avoid hits either but it's been a while since I looked at feats so I'll go back and look into it.

The high hp really helps, but when you can't avoid any hits at all it doesn't matter so much. The cleric has abput 30 hp less than I do but lasts longer in fights because she can barely ever get hit. We had a fight early on where we each had a small group of kobalds on us, I wound up nearly dead, getting hit by 4 of them 1st turn and 1 less each turn after, she was still at full and never got touched. So high hp doesn't feel like it is better than AC to me. At least not with physical damage. I don't remember if spells need to roll against AC or not.

Look for items of deflection, and things that give you a dodge chance/miss chance. You may have issues because of how limited your funds and potential enchantments are thanks to the way your game seems to be run.

By Mobility I did not mean the feat (sorry for the confusion :() I meant that moving about and not staying put during battle.
The feat does help though because having the chain nets you spring attack which helps with keeping you mobile.

There is no denying that AC is very helpful at keeping you alive if you are surrounded by a bunch of attackers. However, as the game progresses, it is very difficult to keep your AC high enough to scale with the BAB of the monsters that you are facing (speaking from experience here - I have a +1 adamantine bodied level 9 warforged with a blueshine towershield and a ring of deflection +2 in my current game and he still gets hit quite often).

Don't forget to use your DR to reduce all physical damage that you take. It is super easy to forget but it can seriously save your hide even if it only cuts out 2-3 per hit.

Sadly AC is useless against spells 99% of the time unless you take some "non-core" feats and add certain "non-core" enchantments.

[Deophaun]

They become 'hostile', not 'suicidal'.
I doubt a group of town guards attempting to apprehend a barbarian that had difficulties dealing with the town baker qualify as "suicidal."

[DEMON]

I am a little confused, based on some of the advice passed here.

If I understand this correctly, you are stuck with Barbarian 1 - 20, with only core books (is that DMG/PHB only, or is the whole SRD at your disposal?) available.

Is this correct?

[Segev]

Don't wait for them to get hostile. Intimidate them again. Make it clear it's not a retry; you're just extending it.

Also, "1 minute of interaction" doesn't mean you can't be fighting back. Grapple one and use him as a human shield. Preferably the biggest and toughest one. Let his friends beat on him a bit while you tell them exactly why you're not the barbarian they should mess with.

Finally, look at the demoralizing rules. It takes a standard action, but if you succeed, you make them have -2 to attack rolls (and a few other things). That will help you avoid being hit by melee and archer types, at least.

Also, it seems to me the baker was ALREADY hostile. Initmidating her doesn't make her more so later.

[Urpriest]

If the DM is your GF, talk to her. If you feel like you're unable to talk to your GF about these sorts of things, then that may be a bigger problem than we can solve.

[DEMON]

I've tried asking the GM about it but that always comes to the "The GM is always right, argue and I smite your character or party."


GF is the GM.

As has been said before, talk to her.

It's one thing trying not to favoritize one's GF, it's another thing to gimp him needlessly or abuse him in game. From what you have posted, it seem like you're sticking with the game just because it's run by her, but you're not enjoying it. If that is indeed the case, no good can come out of it.

[Deophaun]

Don't wait for them to get hostile. Intimidate them again. Make it clear it's not a retry; you're just extending it.
So, when does the barbarian sleep? Does he take the townsfolk with him when he adventures?

Really, Intimidate is a terrible way to deal with anyone that you intend to have any sort of recurring relationship with.

[CursedRhubarb]

I am a little confused, based on some of the advice passed here.

If I understand this correctly, you are stuck with Barbarian 1 - 20, with only core books (is that DMG/PHB only, or is the whole SRD at your disposal?) available.

Is this correct?

Yeah that's the situation. And as far as I know it's just the DMG/PHB.

As for the baker. I have 50 pots of lantern oil, 100ft. Of hemp rope, and a bunch of matches ( forget the D&D term for them.) That I plan to use to settle the debt if she ever shows up again. I would believe killing a theif and crook that the city guard won't do anything about is within the bounds of Chaotic Good....Baking the Bakery.

[Flickerdart]

I would believe killing a theif and crook that the city guard won't do anything about is within the bounds of Chaotic Good....Baking the Bakery.
Murder is never Good.

[CursedRhubarb]

Murder is never Good.

At this point I'm willing to do a little evil for the greater good. But it will only be an issue if she gets brought back.

[Arbane]

You might not be able to vote with your feet, but is there a good reason your character can't? Just say 'Screw you elves, I'm going home!' and then you can make an elf who can be as snotty as everyone else.

[TheIronGolem]

At this point I'm willing to do a little evil for the greater good. But it will only be an issue if she gets brought back.

That will not end well for you.

[CursedRhubarb]

You might not be able to vote with your feet, but is there a good reason your character can't? Just say 'Screw you elves, I'm going home!' and then you can make an elf who can be as snotty as everyone else.

Sadly...there actually is. Chacter backstory has him from a village in the plains, what the people in the campaign are calling the badlands just because of a few dangerous dinosaurs. When we got to town, the blacksmith I've been trying to get to, which led to the bakery incident, is from the same village and Informed me "oh hey, about a year after you left on your quest a stampede of raging dinos flattened the village and killed your whole family"

Kinda not cool to pull some bs like that with another person's backstory.

[CursedRhubarb]

That will not end well for you.

Sure it will. If it doesn't I get to make a new PC and can avoid the non elf trap.

[Segev]

Yeah, do NOT turn this into a game of hostility with your girlfriend. Do talk to her.

My advice is meant to run with what she's done, not to one up it or punish it. If you think it comes off as punishment or "corrective," don't do it; ideally, you get along with your girlfriend and want her to be happy, as she does you.

So if you're thinking of making it adversarial, take it OOC and talk to her about it. Do it while being friendly and open and honest, not reciminating and bitter. RL>gaming, and your girlfriend is very much RL.

[Flickerdart]

Sadly...there actually is. Chacter backstory has him from a village in the plains, what the people in the campaign are calling the badlands just because of a few dangerous dinosaurs. When we got to town, the blacksmith I've been trying to get to, which led to the bakery incident, is from the same village and Informed me "oh hey, about a year after you left on your quest a stampede of raging dinos flattened the village and killed your whole family"

Kinda not cool to pull some bs like that with another person's backstory.
"So long, I'm going to rebuild and repopulate my village to pass on the glorious legacy of my tribe. Meanwhile, meet Snooty McElf, a flatulent and inexplicably Scottish sorcerer I found in a gutter who agreed to help you guys with the rest of your mission."

[TheIronGolem]

Sure it will. If it doesn't I get to make a new PC and can avoid the non elf trap.
And you'll be in the same situation you're in now, but with pointy ears.

[CursedRhubarb]

Yeah, do NOT turn this into a game of hostility with your girlfriend. Do talk to her.

My advice is meant to run with what she's done, not to one up it or punish it. If you think it comes off as punishment or "corrective," don't do it; ideally, you get along with your girlfriend and want her to be happy, as she does you.

So if you're thinking of making it adversarial, take it OOC and talk to her about it. Do it while being friendly and open and honest, not reciminating and bitter. RL>gaming, and your girlfriend is very much RL.

She's of the mind that she doesn't want to talk D&D outside of game much at all. If she did I wouldn't have come to try and find advice on how to find a new set of tracks to switch to or derail my PC from what I was given. I'm just not sure what I can really do with him. The vlass looks like it can be a lot of fun with a straight core barbarian. I just feel trapped with a smart PC that is in an "og smash" roll and is expected to be the role, yet gets punished for doing so. Outside of fights I feel 100% useless and have lately been sneaking in goat simulator time or some terraria since I've been able to keep my computer up after making a spreadsheet to keep track of my stats, perks, and inventory better.

I like the idea of dragging an elf or two around to make them do all my social for me. Will have to try that.

[CursedRhubarb]

"So long, I'm going to rebuild and repopulate my village to pass on the glorious legacy of my tribe. Meanwhile, meet Snooty McElf, a flatulent and inexplicably Scottish sorcerer I found in a gutter who agreed to help you guys with the rest of your mission."

I love this. XD

[Coidzor]

This isn't talking D&D out of the game. This is talking "what's wrong and why are you taking it out on me in the game rather than talking to me about it directly," although, honestly, if you can't even bring this up with her and she just tells you to shut it, then you've got even more issues in your relationship than previously indicated. :/

[Karl Aegis]

You're playing a barbarian. You get rage at level one. Over the course of 20 levels your rage ability doubles in power. All your other class features are minor bonuses. Your entire class is targeting the enemy's armor class and dealing damage to their health.

You're playing with a cleric. They have spells. Their spells double in power every 2 spell levels. Compare Bull's Strength with Divine Power. Compare Planar Ally, Lesser, Planar Ally, and Planar Ally, Greater. They can summon a barbarian equivalent with a full-round action. They can turn into Godzilla and smash Tokyo. They have options to choose from.

I don't think anything that gives a minor bonus (like mithril full plate mail) even compares to the power of a cleric.

Also: Elves are the worst race in the player's handbook.Their racial features don't outweigh the loss of 2 constitution points.

[atemu1234]

You're playing a barbarian. You get rage at level one. Over the course of 20 levels your rage ability doubles in power. All your other class features are minor bonuses. Your entire class is targeting the enemy's armor class and dealing damage to their health.

You're playing with a cleric. They have spells. Their spells double in power every 2 spell levels. Compare Bull's Strength with Divine Power. Compare Planar Ally, Lesser, Planar Ally, and Planar Ally, Greater. They can summon a barbarian equivalent with a full-round action. They can turn into Godzilla and smash Tokyo. They have options to choose from.

I don't think anything that gives a minor bonus (like mithril full plate mail) even compares to the power of a cleric.

Also: Elves are the worst race in the player's handbook.Their racial features don't outweigh the loss of 2 constitution points.

*cough*Half-Elf*cough*

[Toilet Cobra]

The only thing on that list that's even half reasonable is "mithril is an elf thing" -- giving the benefit of the doubt, it could be a setting thing

This. The rest is nonsense, but this could be a setting-specific restriction. Even then, your DM(s) is/are being a dummy/dummies about it. This could be a cool hook - "The elves are secretive people, but prove yourself to the elven leaders and they may accept you as one of their own" - but no way your DMs would allow it. They're stuck in a very unhelpful mindset that your desires as a player and even the rules of the game are less important than what they think your character should be.

There might be a way to work with these guys, but honestly the problems seem to run pretty deep. Railroading you in and out of combat, using your alignment as a straight jacket, and all of that. I bet if you tried camping outside of town to avoid fights & arguments with shopkeepers, they'd just have a "random" patrol of guards gang up on you and drag you into town.

I'm not very patient with guys like this. I tend to be pretty blunt when problems like that crop up, but you could try telling them that instead of being told what you couldn't do, you want to work together with them to find ways to overcome those problems. It isn't physically impossible for you to acquire mithril armor, it's just unlikely. SOMEHOW elves can be convinced to make you armor, or you can just take it off some elf's corpse.