Why be a cleric of Nerull? (3.5 edition)

[CoffeeIncluded]

Okay, if you guys are in my game (the one that ended on Friday night with the wizard prancing around and throwing frozen dead rabbits like a close girl at a bunch of whitespawn while the bard rolled a 30 on diplomacy to get them to turn against the frostfolk who hired them) and reading this, then please get out now.

That means you, Jacob.

Okay, so I'm currently dming a game where the pcs have to bring back summer to a region freezing to death and it's a blast. I'm having a bit of trouble making appropriate encounters (the party consists of a gnome cleric, a tiefling wizard, an artificer, a bard, a dwarf monk, and an archer ranger with a wolf, so you can probably see my problem) but everyone's having a blast. The ranger's player is gone next week so I figured I would put the main plot on hold and do some character-centric stuff instead. I have things in mind for the bard, wizard, and monk, and though I need to know a bit more about the artificer I have a couple ideas in mind for him too.

The issue is the cleric. She's a neutral evil gne cleric of Nerull, who basically spends most of her time riding on the back of the ranger's wolf. Her player is new to the game, so I spent the first couple of sessions getting her feet wet and making sure she had a blast. She spent the first two sessions having her character skin animals and turn an enemy cleric's undead against them, and she's been havin a great time (along with everyone else). However when I told everyone at the end of last session that I want to do something more character-centric next week she said she needed to learn more about her own character too.

So here's where I need a little help. I want to do a character development arc with her. Right now the only idea I have is the realization that as the gnome cleric gets self-buffing spells, she can turn into a melee character, which is especially since right now the only ones are the monk and the wolf. It might also play into the player and character learning what she thinks of the other pcs, and whether or not she would put herself at risk to help them. The other think I may have in mind is figuring out just why she would become a cleric of Nerull in the first place, but I have no idea.

What do you guys think? Do you have any comments or advoce or anything? I would really appreciate it.

[Red Fel]

What do you guys think? Do you have any comments or advoce or anything? I would really appreciate it.

First off, this should probably be in the 3.0/3.5/PF subforum if it concerns that particular system group specifically. Moving on.

Now, let's look at Nerull. Nerull is a NE god with a simple philosophy - he hates all life and wants it dead. This includes his Clerics, which may seem a bit contradictory, but it works for him. He's also the "Foe of All Good," but going that far requires an awful lot of villainy, and it's hard for some players to pull off. Let's keep it simple.

So, worshiping Nerull? First, you have to be Evil, or fairly close to it. What is Evil about? Well, in D&D/PF, one of the big concepts of Evil is Power. That covers all sorts of bases, like "Power is the only thing in this world that matters," "Might makes right," "I have to get stronger at any cost," and so forth. Another option, of course, is sheer, blissful bloodthirst - murdering people for kicks gets you there as easily as any philosophy.

Let's look at the Gnome. Is she a bloodthirsty murderbucket? If she is, you're done; bloodthirsty murderbuckets love the crap out of Nerull. He's basically their patron murderbucket. The problem is that not every PC is one. Some PCs actually have a bit more depth than "if it bleeds I can kill it." So you might want to go the philosophical side.

This is where Clerics of Nerull get some complexity. You start from a basic premise - all things die. Nerull wants to kill them, and he generally wins that fight. So, you can either fight against him - a futile battle at best - or work for him. He'll take you either way, in the end, but at least he'll empower you to destroy your enemies before he does. Clerics of Nerull hold no illusions about their patron - they know he hates them almost as much as he hates all other forms of life. But unlike their victims, Clerics of Nerull enjoy some benefits from aligning themselves with the Mack Daddy Murderbucket. They get power. And as mentioned above, if the Gnome uses a power-oriented mentality, there's good benefit there. Look, you're going to die regardless - why not be outrageously awesome before you snuff it?

This philosophy also helps you affiliate her with the other PCs. Maybe she wants to be stronger to protect her friends and loved ones. Maybe she's ambitious enough that she wants to decide who lives and dies, and when. Maybe she just admires the other PCs for their murderous versatility.

Also, I'm making murderbucket a thing. It's a thing now.

[Bob of Mage]

Also, I'm making murderbucket a thing. It's a thing now.

Okay I just have to know how you would define "murderbucket".

[Red Fel]

Okay I just have to know how you would define "murderbucket".

Bucket full o' murder. Exactly what it says on the tin.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You might also want to answer some cosmological questions like, "What happens to clerics of Nerull after they die?" Because I don't imagine I'd like a Nerullian afterlife but maybe some are into that.

[Sam K]

You might also want to answer some cosmological questions like, "What happens to clerics of Nerull after they die?" Because I don't imagine I'd like a Nerullian afterlife but maybe some are into that.

Those who think about it (and clerics, being wisdom based, tend to think about these things), there are a few reasons why someone would accept a Murderbucket full of Nerulls afterlife (yes, that is a bucket full of murder that is ALSO full of a really unplesant afterlife - murderbuckets are the ultimate bags of holding (of murder!)) after they die:

1. Desperate need for allies. Simply put, if noone else will help you, and if you can find him, maybe you can join... the Nerull-Team!

*cue music*

The gods of good tend to demand things (like honor and benevolence) from their servants. Gods of neutrality tend to be concerned with things like "balance" or "abstract concepts". Many gods of evil, however, will let you join up in exchange for a sincere show of devotion (toppin' up the ole' murder bucket) and a vague promise of future payment (your soul). Gods of evil don't really need you to be pious or devoted, because just being part of the club tends to mean that they will own you in the end. So, desperation is a very viable reason to become a cleric of Nerull.

2. "Better to rule in hell". Figuring that evil is winning the war and will soon rule the universe, you might as well sign up and try to earn a slightly better position in the afterlife. If you don't have knowledge (religion and/or the planes), you might not actually KNOW what afterlife you're signing up for. Nerull isn't lawful, it's not like he has to tell you what he REALLY thinks of you.

3. Born this way. For the philosophing sociopath, there is always the view that you are a murderous bastard, and that it would be foolish to try and fight your nature. While good may be an option for some, and might even be winning the war, some people are just born with a wicked nature that would prevent them from getting into heaven anyway. So might as well jump into the deep end (of the murder-bucket-pool). Heaven is for other people!

So that's three options right there: the downtrodden, desperate cleric, the defeatist who figure if you can't beat them, join them, and the enlightened nutjob who wants nothing more than to stabbity stabb things and put them in the murderbucket!

Damn, now I wanna play an evil cleric! :(

[Coidzor]

Bucket full o' murder. Exactly what it says on the tin.

Reflex save against getting murder all over your favorite blouse?

[M Placeholder]

You might also want to answer some cosmological questions like, "What happens to clerics of Nerull after they die?" Because I don't imagine I'd like a Nerullian afterlife but maybe some are into that.

I think one piece of lore about Nerull sums it all up - Nerull's realm is in Carceri, which isn't a prison, its the prison.
The majority of things that live or unlive there have been thrown in there, or are descended from things that were. Nerull loves it there.

So, after the Gnome dies, shes going to spend the rest of enternity on a frozen red lit orb filled with the souls of backstabbers, along with Nerull, countless undead and the demented creator of the Gehreleths, Apomps the three sided one. Nice.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Okay. I assume you've read the stuff in Libris Mortis? Cause that has the most information on Nerull that I can find. Which still isn't much. Going off what information we've got, let's build us a character arc. Three ideas come to mind.


Kings and nobility that oppress their subjects must be killed. This is, obviously, very easy to pull off even in a "good" campaign with an evil cleric. Toss them a tyrannical dictator, and any Cleric of Nerull would fall right in-line with the CG Fighter trying to liberate a people.
In death, the oppressed of the world finally find freedom. Slaves, and others should be euthanized for their own good. This... gets more complicated. And hard to make work. I don't know if you could even get a player to follow along. Or how you'd stop the party from outright murdering the PC.
Undeath is the only way to become something more than a mortal man. He seeks Lichdom to achieve immortality. From what I can tell, Clerics of Nerull don't see the undead as an affront to their god. In fact, there are several sample worshipers of Nerull in Libris Mortis that command armies of the undead. Joining them doesn't seem so farfetched.


Any of those, I could see being reasons to become a Cleric of Nerull. Fight oppression, free people from the shackles of life, or such a respect for death, it has lead to a fear of the thing itself. I vote you do the first. Because it's most likely the easiest for a player to get behind, morally.

[Lerondiel]

An evil alignment and a death devotee at that, is an interesting option for a new player and unless you have frightening taste in friends, she'll likely complete the campaign long before she gets her head around the character.

Nerull likes your average serial killer sure, but clerics dont get the divine power without focussing on one primary objective - deathcount.

A smart cleric of Nerull will tell a horde of bloodthirsty orcs about a secret tunnel into the human settlement under the pretense of wanting a share of the spoils after the decimation. Result? A lot of dead humans.

A great cleric of Nerull will then alert the doomed human settlement to the invasion at the perfect time for them to take the maximum number of orcs with them.


As a PC in your party a cleric of Nerull is the ultimate 'ally' to have zero interest in your survival beyond its own goals.


To be honest, unless youre running a setting like the Underdark its a really difficult PC class to work into anything.

Eg, she should have been carefully eliminating the rest of the party that was trying to stop this wonderful region that was freezing people to death :)

[atemu1234]

My first suggestion is the necropolitan template. Or similar.

[Red Fel]

Any of those, I could see being reasons to become a Cleric of Nerull. Fight oppression, free people from the shackles of life, or such a respect for death, it has lead to a fear of the thing itself. I vote you do the first. Because it's most likely the easiest for a player to get behind, morally.

Valar morghulis?

Just remember the difference between the philosophies of Wee Jas (death should be respected) and Nerull (hooray for murder). It's one thing to say "Death frees all men from tyranny," it's another to say, "Yo, chief, I'm really happy for you, I'mma let you finish, but I'mma stab you in the face now."

Given that Nerull is presented as one of the primary Evil deities, it's kind of hard to moralize anything about him. Philosophize, yes, justify, sure, and the PC can have a personally personable personality, but moralize?

[Lerondiel]

Valar morghulis?

Just remember the difference between the philosophies of Wee Jas (death should be respected) and Nerull (hooray for murder). It's one thing to say "Death frees all men from tyranny," it's another to say, "Yo, chief, I'm really happy for you, I'mma let you finish, but I'mma stab you in the face now."

Given that Nerull is presented as one of the primary Evil deities, it's kind of hard to moralize anything about him. Philosophize, yes, justify, sure, and the PC can have a personally personable personality, but moralize?

Hehe yeah, a chaotic good undertone doesnt rhyme with Nerull :)

[Ephemeral_Being]

Given that Nerull is presented as one of the primary Evil deities, it's kind of hard to moralize anything about him. Philosophize, yes, justify, sure, and the PC can have a personally personable personality, but moralize?

I dunno. Morals are a very subjective thing. I kind of assume all gods of death are basically neutral. Nerull is "evil" because he encourages his clerics and followers to do whatever they'd like. Including murder, theoretically. And then tortures and experiments on souls after death. Which. Is not good.

Yeah... You have a point. Clerics of Nerull are basically just murderhoboes. They like killing. But if you could focus that? Channel it into a useful outlet? That's an angle, for character development. Which is where I was going with it. Otherwise, they just default into the worst type of player that everyone complains about.

[Red Fel]

I dunno. Morals are a very subjective thing. I kind of assume all gods of death are basically neutral. Nerull is "evil" because he encourages his clerics and followers to do whatever they'd like. Including murder, theoretically. And then tortures and experiments on souls after death. Which. Is not good.

Not in D&D they aren't. Morals are objectively defined in D&D/PF. And Nerull isn't "evil" because he encourages his followers to do whatever they like. He's Evil because: He encourages his followers to murder, specifically. He actively hates and plots against all life. He actively hates and plots against all Good. He would just as willingly murder and torture his own followers as anyone else.To name a few.


Yeah... You have a point. Clerics of Nerull are basically just murderhoboes. They like killing. But if you could focus that? Channel it into a useful outlet? That's an angle, for character development. Which is where I was going with it. Otherwise, they just default into the worst type of player that everyone complains about.

Well, not necessarily. They're not all murderhobos. They are, for the most part, murderous. Which is what you're onto. The idea is that power is good. Therefore, gaining power at any expense is good. The expense, here, is other people. Once you get to that point, you can explore why the PC wants power, which can be as noble or savage as you like. (I'm particularly fond of "to protect my precious people," personally.) Remember that a PC can have noble goals but still be Evil due to their brutal methods.

Remember that a follower of Nerull doesn't have to think like Nerull. They don't even have to enjoy what they do. They can just as easily see worship of the Foe of All Good as a means to an end. Frankly, Nerull doesn't care one way or the other. Nerull might be a murderhobo (or murderbucket, let's make it a thing!), but that doesn't mean this PC has to be.

[Psyren]

Okay, if you guys are in my game (the one that ended on Friday night with the wizard prancing around and throwing frozen dead rabbits like a close girl at a bunch of whitespawn while the bard rolled a 30 on diplomacy to get them to turn against the frostfolk who hired them) and reading this, then please get out now.

*spit-take*



So here's where I need a little help. I want to do a character development arc with her. Right now the only idea I have is the realization that as the gnome cleric gets self-buffing spells, she can turn into a melee character, which is especially since right now the only ones are the monk and the wolf. It might also play into the player and character learning what she thinks of the other pcs, and whether or not she would put herself at risk to help them. The other think I may have in mind is figuring out just why she would become a cleric of Nerull in the first place, but I have no idea.

What do you guys think? Do you have any comments or advoce or anything? I would really appreciate it.

Given your campaign's objective (save a dying region by returning summer to it) it's pretty difficult to imagine why Nerull or one of his followers would go along with this. I'm also leery of the terms "new player" and "evil character" being in such close proximity to one another, but that part seems to be going okay so we'll roll with it.

So why would Nerull want to bring summer anywhere? Here's some odd reasons off the top of my head:

- Deep under the region of winter is the site of an ancient battlefield where the last sortie of a titanic war was waged. There are ancient corpses deep beneath the earth - either legions of humanoids, or the remains of some very large and powerful creatures like dragons - and Nerull needs to thaw things out before his necromancers can gain access to turn them against the forces of good later. Thus our gnome has to buddy up with the heroes to fix the ice, and Nerull will send in other agents later with shovels.

- Similar to the last one, there's some artifact, portal or macguffin that Nerull or his high priest needs, somewhere beneath the snow and ice. Your player's been tasked with retrieving it, and based on the magical nature of the weather, stopping the winter is the only way she can think of to accomplish it.

- With the summer would come a drought, which Nerull or his priests have divined will kill more and faster than the winter would have, because the living things in the area have already adapted to the cold. This one isn't perfect (the cold is after all explicitly killing things already) but it gets the job done? Sort of?

Basically the idea is that Nerull is going along with doing something good for the greater evil, as it were.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! Sorry I haven't responded sooner, I had a long day. And gah, that was supposed to be a flower girl.

So yeah, that's the issue with Nerull. I'm honestly not sure shek knew the implications of playing a cleric of that deity; when I asked she said she'd be playing up the sneaky and trickery aspect of it. Plus I can always change the nature of the god if necessary. But these are some really good suggestions, and I'll bring up a few of these suggestions with her. One other thing I was thinking of was this this wonderful quote by Terry Pratchett:


"...A world without death because there was nothing left to die."

Regardless I'll bring this up with her, and challenge her character's motivations and maybe even faith. Thank you! I hope this goes well.

[KrimsonNekros]

I actually played a druid who worshiped Nerull once. He was a Chaotic Neutral Half-Elf, and as for why? Death was something that was perfectly natural. He didn't go about just killing people for no reason, but also recognized the inevitable end of all things, and how cruel it could be. He just prayed that people would pass on in peace, while doing his part to preserve the balance of life and death. His standard farewell for people was "May Nerull find you in peace."

[Kingsnake]

He would just as willingly murder and torture his own followers as anyone else.

I take issue with this assertion. Nerull isn't stupid; he has larger goals and knows that he can't fulfill them on his own. If he kills off all his followers, he has no one to help him; it's obviously a losing strategy. He's willing to sacrifice his followers, yes; he seeks their deaths as much as any other mortal's. But he realizes that his plans are better served by saving them for last- which could double as a reason to serve him.

As to why Nerull wants to stop an eternal winter: he's the "Foe of All Life", not the "Foe of All Living Mortals"; if you're going to bring down the other gods, you need worship; that means mortals- living mortals. He's also not the "Foe of Sentient Life", and an incredibly effective way to wipe it all out is drastic changes in climate following immediately on the heels of other drastic changes in climate; consider the Permian extinction.

If that's still not enough, and you need to twist his character a little, perhaps he's not so much a hater of life as a lover of death, and nothing can die if it's not first alive. Or maybe he gets more... power? Satisfaction? Satiation?... from suitable impressive/heroic/horrific deaths, and freezing just won't cut it. That does seem like it'd be more Erythnul's type of thing, and perhaps it is- even deities don't work alone; this could be a favor from one god to another, earned in a game of evil god poker.

[Coidzor]

*spit-take*

Given your campaign's objective (save a dying region by returning summer to it) it's pretty difficult to imagine why Nerull or one of his followers would go along with this. I'm also leery of the terms "new player" and "evil character" being in such close proximity to one another, but that part seems to be going okay so we'll roll with it.

Seconded.


So why would Nerull want to bring summer anywhere? Here's some odd reasons off the top of my head:

- Deep under the region of winter is the site of an ancient battlefield where the last sortie of a titanic war was waged. There are ancient corpses deep beneath the earth - either legions of humanoids, or the remains of some very large and powerful creatures like dragons - and Nerull needs to thaw things out before his necromancers can gain access to turn them against the forces of good later. Thus our gnome has to buddy up with the heroes to fix the ice, and Nerull will send in other agents later with shovels.

- Similar to the last one, there's some artifact, portal or macguffin that Nerull or his high priest needs, somewhere beneath the snow and ice. Your player's been tasked with retrieving it, and based on the magical nature of the weather, stopping the winter is the only way she can think of to accomplish it.

- With the summer would come a drought, which Nerull or his priests have divined will kill more and faster than the winter would have, because the living things in the area have already adapted to the cold. This one isn't perfect (the cold is after all explicitly killing things already) but it gets the job done? Sort of?

Basically the idea is that Nerull is going along with doing something good for the greater evil, as it were.

Yeah, those two basic premises seem to be best bet, either there's something they want that has to have the winter ended to achieve it or there's something about switching the season that would cause even more problems for the living.

That or the Nerullian wants to defeat whatever is doing it here in order to find out how to do it herself and replicate it the world over. Or possibly from the inside out...

Or possibly killing the surface would mean that there's nothing left with enough reason to kill everything in the Underdark, and Nerull hates to leave a job half-finished?

[Sam K]

Given your campaign's objective (save a dying region by returning summer to it) it's pretty difficult to imagine why Nerull or one of his followers would go along with this.

Well, you have to remember, a cleric is not required to always act according to what their god would do. They can, after all, have an alignment one step removed. Clerics are allowed to have opinions and goals of their own, as long as they do not act against the interests of their god.

Nerull may simply not care one way or another about the winter. Sure, the winter may mean lots of lovely death, but it's not death in Nerulls name, those souls do not go to his realm, and noone will fear him because of the eternal frost. Nerull doesn't care one way or another about the murders and the buckets, it has to be Nerull-murder going in the Nerull-murderbucket. "It puts the murder in the bucket, or else it gets the murder again." Damn you Red, for putting murderbuckets in my head. Still, better than putting my head in the murderbucket, I suppose...

As for the cleric, clerics of Murderbucket clearly prefer to be the murderer rather than the murderee. If something is dangerous enough, they may be willing to make an effort to stop it, if only so that they can get a chance to murder it themselves.

[satorian]

I actually played a druid who worshiped Nerull once. He was a Chaotic Neutral Half-Elf, and as for why? Death was something that was perfectly natural. He didn't go about just killing people for no reason, but also recognized the inevitable end of all things, and how cruel it could be. He just prayed that people would pass on in peace, while doing his part to preserve the balance of life and death. His standard farewell for people was "May Nerull find you in peace."

Hey, it's your game. But by the book, that's Kelemvor, not Nerull you want to be worshiping. Nerull is a murderer, cruel and vile. He takes joy in death, and the suffering that leads to death. Not all death gods are the same.

Even in real world mythologies, Thoth is much nicer than Hades, who is a bit more pleasant than Hel.

[KrimsonNekros]

Hey, it's your game. But by the book, that's Kelemvor, not Nerull you want to be worshiping. Nerull is a murderer, cruel and vile. He takes joy in death, and the suffering that leads to death. Not all death gods are the same.

Even in real world mythologies, Thoth is much nicer than Hades, who is a bit more pleasant than Hel.

It was a core only game or I would have been digging through FP or DD for something better believe me.

[Psyren]

Hey, it's your game. But by the book, that's Kelemvor, not Nerull you want to be worshiping. Nerull is a murderer, cruel and vile. He takes joy in death, and the suffering that leads to death. Not all death gods are the same.

I think you meant Wee Jas here as Kelemvor is FR.

[Red Fel]

I actually played a druid who worshiped Nerull once. He was a Chaotic Neutral Half-Elf, and as for why? Death was something that was perfectly natural. He didn't go about just killing people for no reason, but also recognized the inevitable end of all things, and how cruel it could be. He just prayed that people would pass on in peace, while doing his part to preserve the balance of life and death. His standard farewell for people was "May Nerull find you in peace."

Yeah... As others have said, that's not really Nerull. Nerull doesn't care about the balance of life and death, and he definitely doesn't want people to pass on in peace. He's a god of murder. He wants people to die horribly. It's why worship of Nerull isn't terribly widespread - most people don't want Nerull to notice them. As others have said, Kelemvor and Wee Jas are better choices. (Interestingly, Wee Jas wasn't originally a death goddess - she was a magic goddess, but when the society over which she watched was annihilated, she became the protector of the legacy of the deceased.)


I take issue with this assertion. Nerull isn't stupid; he has larger goals and knows that he can't fulfill them on his own. If he kills off all his followers, he has no one to help him; it's obviously a losing strategy. He's willing to sacrifice his followers, yes; he seeks their deaths as much as any other mortal's. But he realizes that his plans are better served by saving them for last- which could double as a reason to serve him.

As to why Nerull wants to stop an eternal winter: he's the "Foe of All Life", not the "Foe of All Living Mortals"; if you're going to bring down the other gods, you need worship; that means mortals- living mortals. He's also not the "Foe of Sentient Life", and an incredibly effective way to wipe it all out is drastic changes in climate following immediately on the heels of other drastic changes in climate; consider the Permian extinction.

Actually, Nerull's written fluff says the opposite. He hates all life, including living mortals, including his followers. He doesn't care how many people die - his worshipers included - to get what he wants. In that sense, he's Stupid Evil. He's not cunning or conniving, like some other Evil gods one might mention - he just wants everything to be dead already, ideally in some hideous fashion. That part is fairly explicit.


Damn you Red, for putting murderbuckets in my head. Still, better than putting my head in the murderbucket, I suppose...

Murderbucket: It's a Thing!TM

[CoffeeIncluded]

So I talked with my player about it. She said her cleric worships Nerull partially out of apathy and despair, partially out of resentment for Garl Glittergold's failure to protect her family--especially her sister--and partially because she's willing to do anything to kill the Ice Queen and figured following Nerull would make it easier.

Combined with other PC's characterizations and backstories in the game, this campaign looks like it might also explore the themes of love and family, in all their forms.

[Doomeye56]

I ran a cleric of Nerull who went out culling serial killers. Sending the souls of the weak and unskilled to Nerull and recruiting the strong and skilled into the cult. It was a fun concept as he worked with kingdoms authorities as kinda of a Dexter/murder hobo.

[Fitz10019]

So I talked with my player about it. She said her cleric worships Nerull partially out of apathy and despair, partially out of resentment for Garl Glittergold's failure to protect her family--especially her sister--and partially because she's willing to do anything to kill the Ice Queen and figured following Nerull would make it easier.

Combined with other PC's characterizations and backstories in the game, this campaign looks like it might also explore the themes of love and family, in all their forms.

Great. So what is her arc? Will Nerull push her to get her hands dirty?

[Zubrowka74]

I don't think "gnome" and "cleric of Nerull" is a good mix for a first time player. But if you want to stick to the concept, I'd make the character with a spit personnality : pranky, playful gnome most of the time, angry, psychopathic worshiper of a murder god when you tick her off. Think the Hulk crossed with Harley Quinn perhaps.