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View Full Version : In need of Anti Archer/Elf Tactics



motivatedjanza
2007-04-05, 04:50 PM
I like elves. I respect elves. I think an elven archer is one of the scariest/dependable combatant on earth, depending on what side of the bow your on.

However, my one friend refuses to acknowledge this about a dwarf axeman. Actually, any dwarf. Actually, anything that doesn't have pointy ears, blonde hair, and an affinity for animals and archery.

Yes, at some point in a young gamers life there comes a time when your jerk of a friend pushes you too far, its time for you and him to race-rumble. It's stupid, its pointless, and it doesn't prove anything. Yes, I know. But, it means a lot to me and any haters of elf(or anything else)-supremicists.

Here's the layout we've come up with. 4 characters each. One combatant, one divine, one arcane, and one scout. We're maximizing hit dice so that they are the best of the best. Starting levels gonna be 5-10, though I can see him going up to 15. We're just sticking with the PHB, he's a wee bit of a noob. Also, the battle arena's just your standard Thunderdome. A good bit of room to give his elves a couple of shots before the melee. There's a bit of a "buffing zone" before entering the arena. Should help me out a lot.

Anywho, we haven't rolled our abilities yet but here's his characters:

Elf Ranger: The most fearsome of all elves, I know, I know. He's got a composite longbow, of course, and a longsword. However, there's been talk of giving him a glaive.
Elf Fighter: Another archer, although he's gonna be packing a greatsword. No armor decisions yet on him.
Elf Paladin: Another greatsword-user, this time in full plate. This will definately make him harder to kill, but his archery-ability is going to go down. He's gonna get a bow anyway.
Elf Wizard: Longsword and composite long. I can see a lot of offensive spells coming from this guy, might not be the weak link I'm hoping to find, though.

And here's my team:
Dwarf Fighter/Barbarian: Big old greataxe. Breast-plate so as I still get increased speed. I might strap on a ranged weapon but it would be foolish to try to take elves on at a range. This guy's probably my prime character.
Dwarf Ranger: Two-hander. Dwarven waraxe/Hand axe. Favored enemy, elves. My best ranged combatant, even though he'll be my secondary melee by default.
Dwarven Cleric/Paladin: My healer, which he lacks. I'm putting on a paladin or two so he can pull his own weight in melee though. Full plate more likely than not. Martial weapons would help. LOTS of buff spells.
Dwarf Wizard: Quite possibly my weakest. However, he's holding my trump card: Protection From Arrows. If that doesn't save my butt, what will!?! Other than that, he serves as the fire-ball wielding maniac I'm sure the elf will become.

I'd appreciate any tips I can get.

Finally, let it be understood that I am just a dwarf freak. He is an elf freak. I don't hate elves, but he just puts it on a bit thick sometimes.

Ranis
2007-04-05, 04:56 PM
Do you have an unbiased DM?

Dancing_Zephyr
2007-04-05, 04:59 PM
Use Windwall.

Rigeld2
2007-04-05, 04:59 PM
And here's my team:
Dwarf Ranger: Two-hander. Dwarven waraxe/Hand axe. Favored enemy, elves. My best ranged combatant, even though he'll be my secondary melee by default.

Why bother with Ranger if hes going to be a secondary melee?

Dwarven Cleric/Paladin:My healer, which he lacks. I'm putting on a paladin or two so he can pull his own weight in melee though. Full plate more likely than not. Martial weapons would help. LOTS of buff spells.Dont bother with Paladin. Clerics can hold thier own in melee just fine.

Dwarf Wizard: Quite possibly my weakest. However, he's holding my trump card: Protection From Arrows. If that doesn't save my butt, what will!?! Other than that, he serves as the fire-ball wielding maniac I'm sure the elf will become. Wind Wall >>> Protection from Arrows. Especially since PoA just gives a DR/magic, which is trivial to overcome. Grab a wand of Wind Wall and drop one in front of where your melees are going to be every round.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-05, 05:02 PM
Gracious, and yes, the unbiased DM is going to be present. Even though, hah, he's a bit of a half-fiend freak. Says we're stupid for even trying to do this. But, he's sick of us arguing, so he'll put up with it. Wind Wall sounds nice. I'm just kinda paranoid about his paladin, which is why I made my own.

Indon
2007-04-05, 05:03 PM
Your Wizard could use a Tower Shield. Just root it in the ground and use it as cover. Cover provides significant bonuses against ranged attacks, and then your wizard could cast spells on top of that to ward himself further.

If your intent is to close on them, remember that firing a longbow provides an attack of opportunity; use this against him by pinning his archers against walls. He isn't using monks or barbarians so he can't really outpace you (Oh, yeah, and have your Wizard cast Haste ASAP, and memorize a few Slows for the elves), and if they try to actually run, your guys have more stamina.

If he splits his guys up to get range, don't split up your meleers. Just take out one of them at a time (perhaps the one closest the wizard, to make sure you're still close enough to help if need be), if you're well-enough armored, you won't have to worry much about archery damage; your Cleric/Paladin could outheal it and not even need to cast defensively.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-05, 05:05 PM
Thanks, and I don't think armor is much of an issue. Just my ranger I'm worried about. I went with him since a low-grade healer helps a lot and I believe rangers to be the most powerful out of the group of core classes we've deemed "scouts". Meaning rogues, monks, rangers, and bards.

Indon
2007-04-05, 05:12 PM
Well, your Ranger can stick near your Wizard and heal/defend him if need be, while a Monk or a rogue would have to close, and a Bard's role would overlap a lot with the Wizard if you kept him back, so your choice is tactically sound if you don't want your wizard moving a lot.

lord_khaine
2007-04-05, 05:15 PM
i think the best advice i can give you is to sunder the bows as soon as you get into melee range, since bows isnt melee weapons this will be pretty easy.

besides that i think trip will be your friend, your stability will protect you from being tripped yourself, and being tripped suck for a archer.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-05, 05:19 PM
Honestly, I really, really like the idea of someone sticking with the wizard. However, I think I'll go cleric there while my axe-wielding Ranger and Barb/Fighter go around chopping some ears up. So they're my closers. I think you're right about going after them one by one though. That way I can flank, and if I keep the pressure up my superior melee stats should prevail. Thanks!

Jasdoif
2007-04-05, 05:19 PM
Fireballs? What? Drop a stinking cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stinkingCloud.htm) on top of them. Watch them not be able to cast, attack, or move at their best speed for, say, a minimum of three rounds (the one they start in the cloud, and 2 rounds thereafter). Close your melee guys to melee range in that time. Once you get there, you can double-move or charge 40ft, further then their 30ft speed.

Remember, they're elves, they have a penalty to their Constitution score and thus their Fortitude saves. And even if they make the save, you have total concealment because of the cloud.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-05, 05:19 PM
Maximizing HP rolls greatly favors the Elves by making the Con difference not matter as much. Might want to talk about taking the average instead.

Begle1
2007-04-05, 05:19 PM
He's probably going to use mobility to his advantage. Elves with ranged weapons can slaughter melee dwarves as long as they're more than 10 feet away.

Expect his wizard to throw flies, greases, web's, etc. Counteract with Hastes, Freedom of Movements, flies and dispells.

Rigeld2
2007-04-05, 05:24 PM
Honestly, I really, really like the idea of someone sticking with the wizard. However, I think I'll go cleric there while my axe-wielding Ranger and Barb/Fighter go around chopping some ears up. So they're my closers. I think you're right about going after them one by one though. That way I can flank, and if I keep the pressure up my superior melee stats should prevail. Thanks!
Cleric is just as good (better with buffs) as a Ranger in melee. Keep the Ranger in back sniping (cause thats what theyre good at) and put the Cleric up front. Also, it allows the healer to... heal the "tanks".

motivatedjanza
2007-04-05, 05:28 PM
See, if I keep my ranger back than it's "tank". Wouldn't it be better to have both him and the Barbarian up front? Or do yinz guys really think my cleric is gonna be able to hold his own that well?

Rigeld2
2007-04-05, 05:36 PM
Theres plenty of buffs that bring a Cleric at->above a Ranger in melee.
First round, Wind Wall. Cleric casts a buff.
Stay inside the Wind Wall until your buffs are done.
Cast another Wind Wall encircling as many of his people as you can. Then charge.

Maxwell
2007-04-05, 05:46 PM
Try to engage the archers as soon as possible. Have your wizard Dimension Door a dwarf fighter into the middle of the elves. The real kicker, arm the fighter with a spiked chain. Attacks of oppurtunity galore. Another way of distracting the archers is to cast some of the Summon Monsters spells. You could possibly make all their archery feats useless. Just an idea.

Piccamo
2007-04-05, 05:49 PM
Make sure you have elfbane weapons ;) Your cleric will be far better than your ranger...why not ditch the ranger, too?

Lolzords
2007-04-05, 05:55 PM
[QUOTE=Rigeld2;2332139]Why bother with Ranger if hes going to be a secondary melee?


On the second or so paragraph he says that they need One combatant(sp?), one divine, one arcane and one scout.

The ranger will probably serve as the best choice for this slot.

Miles Invictus
2007-04-05, 06:05 PM
How large is this Thunderdome?

Bring along Black Tentacles. Archers are more mobile than melee fighters, so you have to lock down their movement before using Stinking Cloud to drown them in a pool of their own vomit. When they escape, your melee types go in and beat the crap out of them.

I would equip all of your PCs with Boots of Striding and Springing, just to make sure his archers can't whittle away at you.

Oh, and something else to consider -- all of his people use two-handed weapons. You cannot use two-handed weapons in a grapple.

Flying Elephant
2007-04-05, 06:11 PM
*sigh* It has to be said. If you are going to be at levels 7+ you should use a team of clerics and wizards. Have your clerics cast divine power and be melee/casters, and use your wizards for the tactics other people have said.

jjpickar
2007-04-05, 06:14 PM
Just make a ranged cleric with Zen Archery if you must have a scout. Divine power/righteous +extra cheese will make rangers weep.

Fhaolan
2007-04-05, 06:19 PM
I'm not entirely sure if this would work (I'm not an min/max guru), but I would think that reach weapons would be very useful for the character tasked with being the anti-archer guy. Guisarme + spiked armor to maximize the chances of AoO from them using a bow in melee. You could go spiked chain for the same effect, but that costs a feat and you run the risk of the 'Ah well, it was the spiked chain, not the dwarf, everyone *knows* that spiked chains are broken.' reaction.

Using the Cleric as the backup is a good idea. It's not that you don't want the Cleric up-front-and-personal, it's that when something goes badly wrong you want the Cleric free to move in and do whatever needs to be done. Buffing, healing, that extra smackdown to drop an enemy, etc. The Cleric is your 'reserve', to use military terms. Since the Cleric is perfectly capable of holding his own in combat, and as a full spellcaster, and as the primary healer, it just makes sense to hold him back. Let everyone else get stuck in, see where a heavy-hitter/spellcaster would do the most good, and then send in the Cleric.

In RL combat, one of the the biggest factors is terrain. If you're in a Thunderdome kind of setup, *make* terrain. Have the spellcasters drop barriers and restrictions on the battlefields. Clouds, walls (especially Wind Walls versus archers), etc. The archers (and spellcasters) are only as good as their line of sight. If they can't snipe, their effectiveness is reduced. That gives your heavy melee guys a chance. Of course, on average you're going to be moving slower than the elves, if you can drop barriers that affect the elves, but your melee tanks are immune to, that's much better. Freedom of Movement, Hastes, that kind of stuff.

Oh, just as a note: It may not matter, but if the other side is relying on archers and the like, make sure that the rules of encumberance are being followed. The chances of an archer actually running out of arrows is relatively small, but unless they have an magical everful quiver of some kind there is always the chance.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-05, 06:23 PM
By the way, armor never slows dwarves down, so you can have your full plate and max base speed.

The_Snark
2007-04-05, 06:33 PM
I'll go for a bit of character-by-character advice.


And here's my team:
Dwarf Fighter/Barbarian: Big old greataxe. Breast-plate so as I still get increased speed. I might strap on a ranged weapon but it would be foolish to try to take elves on at a range. This guy's probably my prime character.

Sounds good. I'm not sure if you meant a multiclass fighter/barbarian or that you hadn't decided yet, but either one works.


Dwarf Ranger: Two-hander. Dwarven waraxe/Hand axe. Favored enemy, elves. My best ranged combatant, even though he'll be my secondary melee by default.

Ranger... As scouts go, he'll be all right, I guess.


Dwarven Cleric/Paladin: My healer, which he lacks. I'm putting on a paladin or two so he can pull his own weight in melee though. Full plate more likely than not. Martial weapons would help. LOTS of buff spells.

I'd say don't bother with the paladin levels, really—they aren't going to give you more than a +1 to attacks, and most of the special abilities you get are based off Charisma, hardly the dwarf's strong point. A cleric packing tons of buffs is strong enough. Divine Power, probably Divine Favor if you're above level 6, Bull's Strength if you weren't high-level enough for Divine Power, Righteous Might if you can get it. Also make sure you've got some Wind Walls, as those are invaluable battlefield control spells.


Dwarf Wizard: Quite possibly my weakest. However, he's holding my trump card: Protection From Arrows. If that doesn't save my butt, what will!?! Other than that, he serves as the fire-ball wielding maniac I'm sure the elf will become.

Oh, not your weakest. As has been said, Wind Wall is superior to Protection from Arrows. Don't bother with Fireballs much; instead, go for limiting the enemy's mobility. Web keeps their archers in one place so that they can be picked off, although Reflex is probably not the save you want to target against archer-y elves. Evard's Black Tentacles is great, and you might want to use that instead of Web. Haste will mean your dwarves can suddenly close with the enemy a lot faster. Pack a Dispel, too, in case the enemy wizard starts getting smart with his effects. Slow is nasty against archers; suddenly they can't use Rapid Shot and they can't keep distance and attack in the same round. Dimension Door can put one of your dwarven pals right next to an irritatingly distant enemy. Solid Fog is another great, great spell; it blocks ranged weapons and will slow your enemies down to a crawl, without much they can do about it.

So, essentials:
-Wind Walls. Your cleric should have one, your wizard should have one, maybe even your ranger if he's high-level enough, so that you can deny your enemies the first shot. It should be the very first thing you do, unless you can hit all four enemies with a Black Tentacles. Put it right in the middle of the dome so that it covers you as long as possible, and they'd have to move closer to you to shoot around it.
-Dispel Magic. Not quite as essential, but it'll counter Fly nicely. Wizard and Cleric should each keep one prepped.
-Battlefield control for your Wizard. This means Black Tentacles, Stinking Cloud, Grease, and maybe Glitterdust should be high on your Wizard's list. Dominate and Baleful Polymorph are instant killers, but they don't have much range.

My advice is to stay away from Fireballs and such. They look cool, and they're fun, but when it comes down to dealing 20 damage to an area or preventing everyone in that area from moving (with Black Tentacles or Solid Fog), it's better to choose the second option, since your melee dwarves will chop up the enemy if they can stay close.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-05, 09:47 PM
have the cleric and wizard both go summon whore, it will destroy. then have your fighter run to the most archer based one and destroy that mo. as for his wizard, perhaps a little grapling?

Solo
2007-04-05, 10:24 PM
Shatter his weapons.
(By using the Shatter spell)

Dr. Weasel
2007-04-05, 10:25 PM
have the cleric and wizard both go summon whore

That is probably not the best move since summoning takes an entire turn and, being archers, they can easily interrupt your spells from a range. Around level 7 (to pull an average-ish number out of nowhere) you'll probably make the concentration checks against their damage, but there always is a chance you will fail that you won't have with 'slow' and 'black tentacles'

Draz74
2007-04-05, 10:29 PM
I think your tank-role dwarf should be a Grappling specialist Barbarian with spiked armor. With Vicious spikes, if you can afford them.

Watch him have a little wrestling match with the Elf Wizard. :smallamused:

We'd all be able to give much more specific advice if you told us the level at which the game was going to be played.

Oh, and for a duel like this, I strongly recommend point buy instead of rolling for abilities.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-04-05, 10:30 PM
Don't forget about your familiar and animal companion. I'd actually consider turning the cleric into a Druid just for the companion. I think I'd go for speedy grapplers for animal companions. I'm not sure what I'd do for a familiar, but if it can get into melee range, it might be able to get plenty of AoO's.

Don't ignore shields. This is one case where sword and (Tower) board can be very good. In addition to the spells already mentioned, the good old obscuring mist could really be helpful as well. They can't shoot what they can't see. There is also darkness, which doesn't affect how well you see them at all. There is also the always handy ray of enfeeblement to make them over-burdened by their equipment. It might be worth making your scout a rogue or something else with Use Magic Device. A wand with one of those first level spells can be easily used with a decent UMD, and frees up your casters to use their higher level spells. I also just noticed that blindness/deafness is Medium range and targets their fort save. I'd say it makes a great opener!

Under no circumstance do you want to throw a fireball! Your priorities are locking them down, making them not able to see you and targeting their fort saves.

argentsaber
2007-04-05, 10:57 PM
a few thoughts: obscuring mist and faerie fire
replace ranger with rogue and give him blink or improved invis
can a grappling monk with sneak abilities count as a scout?
if you reall want to summon, do it inside a rope trick
wolf companions are fast and trip
secure shelter is great if you have the levels
since you know the terms of the fight, sorceror > wizard
(for once)
ray of enfeeblement will work wonders on his paladin
alter self can get you some nice natural armor
consider making your scout a charioteer
- or at higher levels your scout and tank

oh and PS, there are no dwarven wizards or mages, they are called Arcanists!

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-05, 11:24 PM
If you're going to put your cleric in fullplate (and why not? Dwarves are slow), holding him back is the thing you DON'T want to do. At 20' movement, he'll be spending an entire turn sprinting to the frontline.

The Elves have you outclassed in speed.

Here's my suggestion- wall of iron. It has a range of "long". Get a bard or rogue to UMD it, if you're below 11th level, or whatever. It has a range of long, which means that you can cast it minimally 210 feet away (100+ 10ft/lvl *11), with it sealing up at least 55 squares. With UMD and a wizard, you could have the entire arena sealed up so the archers can't retreat. You could even have your cleric take the magic domain and attempt to cast them from scrolls. With windwall up, you could spend time buffing/trying to get those walls of iron off.

Follow up by greasing the wall, so they can't climb over. Melee moves in and starts tearing elves up.

His paladin has nothing on you- smite evil won't work. Just get him in a grapple. I would recommend making your combat brutes grapplers. A grappling cleric would be devestating- full BAB, two size increases (enlarge person, righteous might). Even non grappling meleers have trouble with grapplers if they didn't pick up the improved grappler feat.

Combat:
Round 1: Windwall
Round 2: Rogue and wizard begin to seal them in with walls of iron while cleric buffs.
Round 3. Finish sealing up wall of iron, rogue or wizard begins casting lengthened grease on the walls of iron (depending on size of arena; this may be a null option). If can't grease walls, wizard and rogue help cleric buff (enlarge, divine power, righteous might, prayer, haste, invisibility, blur, mirror image, fly, etc.) Remember, scrolls are your friend.
Round 4: Two brutes advance; I recommend the barbarian and cleric. The cleric has a lot of versatility, and that's best taken advantage of when he's on the frontline. Leave the scout with the wizard, behind the windwall. Cast whatever spells are needed to counter what the enemy wizard is doing, if he's using battlefield control spells. A wand of dispel would be useful.
Round 5. Your brutes are probably on their archers, who have scattered. Hem then in with more walls of iron.

From there, it's going to be mostly your brutes running down their archers (try and hit them with slow to event hings up). You should be able to grapple them with ease, which means they can't run from you. If anything takes to the air, have the cleric/rogue/wizard summon flying monsters to harry them. A flying grappler cleric would also bring them down very quickly.

Draz74
2007-04-06, 12:17 AM
A grappling cleric would be devestating- full BAB, two size increases (enlarge person, righteous might).

Don't size category changes from spells not stack in general?

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-06, 12:25 AM
Don't size category changes from spells not stack in general?

Mm, good point.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-06, 12:27 AM
You know, since this is a battle, you could blow your cash on scrolls of quickened buffs.

PlatinumJester
2007-04-06, 07:31 AM
Ok 1 - get wind wall
2 - if you can lure them into a small corridor then use dimension door between you and them. Arrows will just go thru the door.
3 - Get deflect/snatch arrows feat.
4 - Lure them into a place with abosulutley no light. They don't have darkvision unlike you.
5 - Change some of the dwarves into dwarven defenders with tower shields.
6 - Use blinding spells
7 - Get your entire party to run around a corner, however just before you will drop some caltrops on the floor. Once around the corner stop. When the archers run around the corner their movement will be reduced due to the caltrops. As soon as they run around the corner make sure that you are about 10 feet away from them. Now you can leather them with your melee characters.
8 - imporved initiative will be vital.

Rigeld2
2007-04-06, 07:34 AM
Why bother with Ranger if hes going to be a secondary melee?
On the second or so paragraph he says that they need One combatant(sp?), one divine, one arcane and one scout.

The ranger will probably serve as the best choice for this slot.
I read that. Did you read the rest of my posts? I suggested leaving the Ranger with the Wizard, and sending the Cleric in as secondary melee.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-06, 08:46 AM
Wowsers, thanx you guys. I'm getting intrigued at this grappling tactic. However, you'll see I'm equipping the Barb/Fighter (yes, multiclass) with a greataxe. Might do that with the cleric as well. I think a martial weapon is worth spending his first feat on.

However, do yinz guys think dropping the greats for dwarven waraxes would be worthwhile to get a grappling tactic going?

Telonius
2007-04-06, 09:23 AM
Grappling is a good idea. Disarming the archer might be an even better option; -4 to the disarm check for them using a non-melee weapon; +4 to you if you use a 2h weapon.

For your wizard, Ray of Enfeeblement is a nice little spell to utterly ruin the archer's day, if he's using a Composite Longbow. Penalties on the damage from Composite, -2 to attack if it drops him below the bonus, and it carries over to when he switches to his Longsword or Glaive (for penalties to both attack and damage). If you're really lucky, it'll drop him to a heavy load, with reduced movement. He likely won't have SR. Touch AC will be low since, as a Composite Bow-wielding character, he'll have focused on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Remember: kill pointy hat first. You need to take out their wizard as soon as you possibly can.

Tweekinator
2007-04-06, 09:41 AM
Well, I don't think you should spend a feat to give the cleric a greataxe, especially when he is already proficient with a dwarven waraxe.

As this is PHB/core only, I would definitely consider dropping the cleric for a druid, you get wildshape for if you need to close into melee, an animal companion that can help out your melee guys, healing and buffs. Plus, with natural spell you get a spellcasting dire bear.

Indon
2007-04-06, 10:00 AM
Is Natural Spell in the PHB? I didn't think so...

Of course, Druid is still viable, since you could use all of your day's Wild Shapes in a single encounter...

Yvian
2007-04-06, 10:02 AM
A Dwarven Fighter build. You are going to need Races of Stone and Complete Fighter.

Level 1: Fighter 1 Take dwarf fighter racial substitution level. Get D12HD, Axe Focus, Power Attack.
Level 2: Fighter 2 Racial Weapon familiarity.
Level 3: Fighter 3 Short Haft. Start using the Dwarven Warpike. Now you have reach.
Level 4. Fighter 4 Improved Bull Rush.
Level 5: Fighter 5
Level 6: Fighter 6 Shock Trooper, Combat Expertise. Now you can play dominos with your foes.
Level 7: Fighter 7
Level 8: Fighter 8 Trip. Now playing dominos is fun.
Level 9: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Trip Trick, Improved Sunder.
Level 10: Fighter 9
Level 11: Combat Brute
Level 12: Exotic Weapon Master 2: Sunder Trick.

Lots of flexibility in tactics. Yes, you are going to need a bit of a magical boost to get speed, but no elves are going to stand in your way. You just close, charge, and strap tripping and sundering. Hopefully your wizard will be able to provided support.

As for the paladin cleric – I would go straight Cleric. The benefits of a Paladin are not worth diluting you clerical spell casting ability.

EDIT:: I just saw the point about PHB only. OK - that works as well. Go for trip and sunder. I am not sure if I would throw in levels of barbaian - a dwarf in heavy armor in nice.

Telonius
2007-04-06, 10:09 AM
Is Natural Spell in the PHB? I didn't think so...

Of course, Druid is still viable, since you could use all of your day's Wild Shapes in a single encounter...


I thought it was. I'm at work at the moment, but my online source says it's on p.98 of the PHB.

Tweekinator
2007-04-06, 10:21 AM
Yes, it is. Here is even a handy dandy link it on the SRD.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#naturalSpell

Darrin
2007-04-06, 10:22 AM
Wowsers, thanx you guys. I'm getting intrigued at this grappling tactic. However, you'll see I'm equipping the Barb/Fighter (yes, multiclass) with a greataxe. Might do that with the cleric as well. I think a martial weapon is worth spending his first feat on.

However, do yinz guys think dropping the greats for dwarven waraxes would be worthwhile to get a grappling tactic going?

Grappling trumps both ranged and spellcasting. Since you're up against mostly ranged-based elves, that means high Dex, but really lousy grapple rolls. However, unless he anticipates the grappling, he's unlikely to sink a lot of skill points into Escape Artist, and even if he does, the best he can hope for is a stalemate (you grapple, he spends his turn to escape, you grapple again, repeat). The only real way to trump grapple is with Freedom of Movement, which can be hard to come by cheaply.

If you're stuck on that greataxe damage, I think there are some feats/PrCs that let you do 1d12 damage on a grapple. Add some Reaping Mauler, and you may be able to throw a few death checks his way (most elves have a Con penalty).

Wind Wall is a nice thought, but even a 1st level spell like Obscuring Mist could ruin most ranged attacks and let you close to melee. Add Glitterdust, Faerie Fire, or Blindfight.

Indon
2007-04-06, 10:23 AM
I thought it was. I'm at work at the moment, but my online source says it's on p.98 of the PHB.

Ah, all right. I'm surprised I never noticed. Also, it would appear that d20srd.org is no longer filtered at my workplace...

Piccamo
2007-04-06, 10:26 AM
Cleric within core will do just as well if not better than a druid since you are allowing time for buffs before the battle. At level 10 you can get Divine Favor (+3 Luck bonus to hit), Divine Power (Full BAB, +6 Enhancement Bonus to Str), Righteous Might (Large Size to include weapon, +4 Size Bonus to Str, +2 Size Bonus to Con). So you could easily be expected to have 26str, +20/+14 AB, +25 Grapple Bonus.
Your cleric's feats should include Power Attack and have one of his domains be War. Your buffs will last for about the first minute of combat in which time they should be dead.

Using a druid as your "scout" isn't a bad idea, either. Natural Spell is in the PHB and the SRD.

Your Barb/Fighter is good, make sure to pick up WF and WS since this is core only.

Your Wizard will have an easy time of it if he gets to go first. Use Windwall to your advantage if he plans on going with a bow a lot. Trap them with other walls, making it so in order to get out (or do anything to you) they have to come outside. Don't forget to cast fly on your party and in the buff rounds maybe even Greater Invisibility. He may have true seeing, but at least it wastes an action by them to begin with. Make sure to invest in a scroll of one as well.

Tweekinator
2007-04-06, 10:31 AM
Also, worth considering for either your combatant or divine would be a mounted combat guy, this would destroy their mobility advantage and if you wanted, could be made with either paladin/cleric or fighter/barbarian.

Piccamo
2007-04-06, 10:37 AM
Thats a great idea. Have your cleric and barb/fighter on mounts getting the sweet lance charging bonus. You can actually have both with Spirited Charge at level 10 (though the cleric's spells will be significantly weaker than taking other feats). When you charge you'll do x3 damage with both and that applies to damage from strength and power attack.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-06, 10:40 AM
Team of assassins armed with lots of poison, the night before the "battle". Death attacks only take 3 rounds. They'll have all night.

Rigeld2
2007-04-06, 11:37 AM
Well, I don't think you should spend a feat to give the cleric a greataxe, especially when he is already proficient with a dwarven waraxe.
Hes not. The dwarven waraxe is considered a martial weapons for dwarves. Clerics are proficient with simple weapons only.

Tweekinator
2007-04-06, 12:12 PM
Hes not. The dwarven waraxe is considered a martial weapons for dwarves. Clerics are proficient with simple weapons only.

Whoops. Could have sworn they were automatically proficient in it.

Telonius
2007-04-06, 12:17 PM
It's easy to forget. Elves are the only ones in the basic seven races that get racial weapon proficiency. Dwarves and Gnomes just get familiarity with their racial weapons, not proficiency.

Jalil
2007-04-06, 12:19 PM
Core only, eh? Here's my lineup, assuming lvl10:
Bbn2/Ftr8
Monk10
Clr10
Wiz10

Fighter type is obvious. Go THF with greatsword, power attack, Focus, spec, and sunder ftw.

Monk, go grapple the wizard, keep him down. D-Door to close the distance quickly.

Cleric, take war and str domains. I prefer the deity Jus'kilit. Aligned CN, domains of Str, war, Planning, and Undeath, the most abused 4 domains. Favored weapon of Greatsword. Buff up with the Holy three(Righteous might, divine favor, and divine power), and go to town with that focused greatsword of yours. he is still standing by to heal up, as he goes into melee.

Wizard. Easy, read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) and get back to me. TLN did great things to wizards in my world, and so can he to you also. Abuse the 24 hour buffs that you can, I don't think there are many at that level.

This should win. Alternatives include:

Ftr 10, Trippy Tripster, the tripping master.
Expertise, Imp trip, imp disarm. Focus, spec, greater focus, power attack, imp sunder. Abuse readied actions. Abuse the trip rules.

Rog 10, Sneaky bugger
TWF with short swords, 4 attacks at 6d6 apiece, combined with greater invis and crippling strike, you'll drop them fast.

Drd10, NastyMan
Natural Spell. Win. Wildshape into something nasty. Go grapple their ranger, have companion grapple wizard. you should be able to charge +full atk, thanks to pounce. You do have pounce, right?

Wizard. Nope. no change here. wiz10 is your best bet, spell selection... that's where it gets nasty. Have fun with that, man. Really, read the guide, it will change your experience.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Let us know how that goes.

Knight
2007-04-06, 01:53 PM
You should also consider Ray of Enfeeblement for your wizard; if you drop their strength enough, any composite bow with a strength bonus becomes useless.

Dervag
2007-04-06, 03:21 PM
Anybody want to try summing up all the proposals into a coherent package?

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-06, 03:44 PM
Your melee types are going to have trouble catching the elves- however, if you make them grapplers, they'll stay caught once you do catch them. Sundering their weapons is also a valid tactic. Finding a way to keep them from running also works.

The biggest threat will be the enemy wizard. Hopefull he burns spells on AoE and direct damage, rather than control. If your guys get entangled, or black tentacled, or held, you're going to be pincushions.

Use your wizard to combat his wizard- cast freedom of movement from scrolls on all your units. Spend as many rounds as you need buffing behind those windwalls.

Ray of enfeeblement is a bad idea- you have to be within close range. I doubt they'll let your wizard get that close. Even melee is going to have trouble.

Mounts may be a good idea. The problem with mounts- they die. Turn them invisible and silent for added "I can hit anyone, anywhere, and stay safe." With power attack, + spirited charge, and a lance, you will do 3(1.5str+2pwr attack + 1d8 + enchantments). If you got ftr 1/rogue x, you also get to multiply his sneak attack dice by that x3. That could easily be a 1 hit ko.

Don't bother with real mounts, use phantom steeds. At wizard level 5, they get a move of 100 ft, which is 200 ft on a charge. At 14th level, they fly, and have a charge of 480 ft.

You're going to need to find a way to counter fly. Maybe make your dwarfs flying- grapple the archers, pick them up, drop them. If you've got flying phantom steeds, it's all good.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-06, 04:04 PM
Wind wall.

Has this nifty clause about what kinds of ranged ammo it affects, and how much. Arrows? Not getting through. Thrown daggers or sling bullets? Only have a 30% chance of being deflected.

Put up a Wind Wall, then stone them. At range. It'll be funny.

Jalil
2007-04-07, 08:28 AM
Your melee types are going to have trouble catching the elves-
Not so much. Unless he's willing to take 1 shot/turn, they'll catch up soon enough. run x3 ftw.


however, if you make them grapplers, they'll stay caught once you do catch them. Sundering their weapons is also a valid tactic. Finding a way to keep them from running also works.Truth.


The biggest threat will be the enemy wizard.Of course.


Hopefull he burns spells on AoE and direct damage, rather than control.Since he only has core, This is likely.


If your guys get entangled, or black tentacled, or held, you're going to be pincushions.Freedom of movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomofMovement.htm) for the win. Only lvl4, so spam it around.


Use your wizard to combat his wizard- cast freedom of movement from scrolls on all your units. Spend as many rounds as you need buffing behind those windwalls.

Wizards work better as Debuffers and controllers. Divine is better for the buffs. Besides, Freedom isn't a wizard spell.


Ray of enfeeblement is a bad idea- you have to be within close range. I doubt they'll let your wizard get that close. Even melee is going to have trouble.

While it is a close spell, at lvl10, the range is 50', and 1d6+6 str drain is nothing to laugh at. If you are going to use him as direct offense, expect his wizards str to be at 10, to negate ranged atk penalties, and you have a 50% chance to drop him with one spell.


Mounts may be a good idea. The problem with mounts- they die. Turn them invisible and silent for added "I can hit anyone, anywhere, and stay safe." With power attack, + spirited charge, and a lance, you will do 3(1.5str+2pwr attack + 1d8 + enchantments).

They won't notice the dwarves floating 3' up in the air, moving fast than they should? They'll drop the horses. Lances sound good, but it's all taste really.


Don't bother with real mounts, use phantom steeds. At wizard level 5, they get a move of 100 ft, which is 200 ft on a charge. At 14th level, they fly, and have a charge of 480 ft.

Why waste the spell? You hinging that they don't dispel magic, leaving you mount-less, with a barrel of useless feats.


You're going to need to find a way to counter fly.

Dispel magic? Reaving Dispel? Your own fly? It's not that hard.


Maybe make your dwarfs flying- grapple the archers, pick them up, drop them. If you've got flying phantom steeds, it's all good.

Only if your str is max buffed, and then it will be hard. They need to pin, then they can move up 10'. what are the rule for grappling whilst flying?


If you got ftr 1/rogue x, you also get to multiply his sneak attack dice by that x3. That could easily be a 1 hit ko.Sneak attacks are never multiplied.

daggaz
2007-04-07, 10:28 AM
Lose the ranger. Get another Cleric, they are vastly superior, both in melee and as casters. Ask your DM if he will allow you to use a dwarven waraxe as a favored weapon if you worship Clangeddin Silverbeard, most DM's I know will, as there is a general consensus that the waraxe thing is just a forgotten throwback from 2.0 (they forgot to upgrade). If so, have one (or both) clerics go War + Str. This will be a hard hitting melee cleric, using waraxe twohanded. If not, dont sweat it too much, might try looking for a suitable god with a twohander tho. If you can nab travel domain, it will help a lot as well.

Your dwarven barbarian loses fast movement when using heavy armor, dwarf or not. Fast movement is different from normal encumbrancy, so yeah, dont lose that. Otherwise, not a bad choice considering the situation. Make sure you give him a magic circle versus (whatever alignment the wizard is).

Buff spells: HASTE (cast at the last second), Divine Favor/Power for clerics, Bless, Magic circle against X, enlarges on the clerics (it increases your movement as well), whatever AC spells you can toss on that stack..

Get a windwall up pronto for your wizard. He needs to cast stinking cloud right off the bat (hope he wins init), drop it right on their caster and as many archers as possible. Now you have cover, run your men straight up to the cloud, kill any who emerge. (power attack is your friend with a 2hander).
Slows and edvards black tent. and other battlefield controls will be useful for elves who slip out and try to keep distance. Kill the wizard fast like, trip or grapple could be fun, but not necessary (you will def. have an advantage if you are tripping tho, as dwarves. Halberds or 2handed flails are nice here, just keep it two handed for the heavy power attacks).

Jalil
2007-04-07, 10:45 AM
^^Read the OP. They have to have one of each archetype: Fighter, Scout, Divine, and Arcane.

Your other contributions essentially mirror what has been said already. Good ideas though, just a little late.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-08, 08:21 AM
Dude... This wizard guide is the most amazing thing I've ever seen! And yeah. I believe I have a fairly solid plan. However, I think I mislead yinz guys. Here's how my friends and I have sorted the classes:
Combatants: Fighter(duh), Barbarian, Monk, Paladin
Divine: Cleric, Paladin, Druid, Ranger
Scout: Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Bard
Arcane: Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard
You'll surely notice that some are on the lists twice. So, to prevent a team of Elf Rangers, and on his part Dwarf Paladins, we've limited it to only using each class once.

Thank you guys, for everything. Here's what I've picked up:
~Wind walls are the most essential thing I've got.
~My wizard should focus, not on D.D. spells like his will, but on battlefield control and buffs.
~Cleric <> Only a buffer. Cleric = UBER-bufffer + Capable Melee Combatant + Wizard defender.
~My two-handed ranger and barbarian/fighter are gonna have to work as a team, going after the wizard first, then picking off his wee-little elfies one by one!
~Ray of Exhaustion will be devastating! His paladin's in full-plate, and everyone, I mean EVERYONE has composites!

I've more or less built my fighter/barb Here he is:

Lvl 4 Ftr. Lvl. 6 Barbarian

Str. 22 +6
Dex. 18 +4
Con. 24 +7
Int. 17 +3
Wis. 18 +4
Cha. 8 -1
(Can you say broken, kiddies? Might swap out his ability rolls for my wizard)

Fortitude: +14
Reflex: +7
Will: +7

HP: 129 BAB: +10/+5 AC: 18(Breastplate) Initiative: +4 Speed: 30 ft.
DR: 1/-- Grapple: +16

Attacks: Greataxe; +16/+11; 1d12 +9; x3
(The damage dealer)
+6 Composite Longbow; +14; 1d8 + 6; x3; 110 ft.; 20 arrows
(I couldn't resist, his strength bonus is huge! Thinking about javs so I can hit him through the wind wall, though)
Handaxe; +16/+11; 1d6 + 6; x3
(If I'm grappling, I'm gonna need a light weapon to chop up some ears. So I figured handaxe!)

Keep in mind, this is my character without his seven feats. I'm guessing the majority of these will be Weapon Focus and Specialization on top of his greataxe. Add on all the buffs I'll be throwing on this guy, and I think I just made a tank with improved speed! Mmkay, not tank. With an 18 AC he'll be fairly easy to hit. He's a damage-dealer. I just hope 129 hit points counter out his armor issues.

Rigeld2
2007-04-08, 08:27 AM
As I said before, leave your ranger with the Wizard and step the Cleric up. I would change the Ranger to a TWF spec, and pick up Rapid Shot and Quickdraw, so you can volley Javelins at the elves.

edit: or change him to a Monk, and go grappling.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-08, 08:36 AM
Ah. I was actually thinking about monk. I like Javelin-chucker, specially from behind a wind wall. If I beef up my cleric and get him a dwarven waraxe via feat, your plan sounds perfect. He's just the slowest out of my group, so I figured I'd need my two fastest out there chasing the elves.

Jalil
2007-04-08, 08:56 AM
For your fighter... I think you'd be better off with ftr8/bbn2 or ftr6/bb2/mkn2. As it stands, you're gimping yourself feats for that extra +2 hp/die, which really isn't worth it. Getting the extra 2 feats though, that's(for example) power attack into Improved Sunder. a great one-two step. NOTE: Bbn gets DR at lvl7, not 6. You must ensure that you play everything straight, otherwise, the elf-lover will cry foul, and you may have to restart, tipping your hand.

In the second example, you get imp grapple and deflect arrows free, even if the other abilities can't be used, not to mention that evasion is a great lvl2 monk ability.

Taking monk in combatant would free up the TWF javelin ranger idea, which isn't too bad, even if a grappling monk would negate his wizard better...

If reagard to your cleric, if you caste haste, he will zip by your Bbn, catching up to the elves in... Wait, question:

How big is the Thunderdome? 100'? 500'?

Ninja Chocobo
2007-04-08, 09:03 AM
If everyone's starting in a group, invest in a scroll of Time Stop for your Wizard. Hell, do it anyway. But, if they start in a group, you can run up to them, cast Black Tentacles, Wind Wall, and possibly Stinking Cloud, severely gimping them for the battle.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-08, 02:07 PM
The Thunderdome is probably gonna be a 100' octagon, leastways, thats what I'm aiming for.

So, one final thing I need advice on:

Monk or Ranger? Which one should I take as scout? The ranger would be jav-chucker through the wind wall/secondary melee whereas the Monk would do the same but with special attacks like grapple and trip.

I'm still leaning towards ranger for the attack bonus. Elves are gonna be tough to hit...

Rigeld2
2007-04-08, 02:12 PM
If I beef up my cleric and get him a dwarven waraxe via feat, your plan sounds perfect.
Why bother with a Dwarven Waraxe? Youre going to spend a feat on a 1d10 x3 crit weapon, when you have 1d8 x2 and 1d8 x3 weapons with no feat.

Jalil
2007-04-08, 02:14 PM
Go monk. Grapple FTW. Take INA from the MM to rank up your unarmed another lvl, and tackle his wizard. you can do hit, what's his touch AC? 10+dex+RoP? nothing. His wizard goes down, everyone else wins.

Try to apply TLN's teachings to everything. Control>Damage. Grappling beats stand-up, tripping beats stand up, etc. IMO, anyway.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-08, 04:46 PM
Not so much. Unless he's willing to take 1 shot/turn, they'll catch up soon enough. run x3 ftw.

I don't know how big the arena is. To give the elves any sort of chance, they're going to have to start at least 2 bow range increments out. Dwarves are slow.

Though reading on, it looks like a 100' octagon. By geometry's no good to figure out how wide that is. Several hundred feet, at least. Hasted elves will easily outmaneuvre the slow dwarves.

Freedom of movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomofMovement.htm) for the win. Only lvl4, so spam it around.

Wizards work better as Debuffers and controllers. Divine is better for the buffs. Besides, Freedom isn't a wizard spell.[/quote]

My bad. But yeah, spam that from scrolls.



While it is a close spell, at lvl10, the range is 50', and 1d6+6 str drain is nothing to laugh at. If you are going to use him as direct offense, expect his wizards str to be at 10, to negate ranged atk penalties, and you have a 50% chance to drop him with one spell.

But the logistics of getting the wizard that close is a little dangerous. Imp invis + fly ftw.


They won't notice the dwarves floating 3' up in the air, moving fast than they should? They'll drop the horses. Lances sound good, but it's all taste really.

You make them all invisible, of course.


Why waste the spell? You hinging that they don't dispel magic, leaving you mount-less, with a barrel of useless feats.

Can't dispel what you can't see, and after hitting with that sort of damage, there won't be anything left. But yes, there's potential for a major snafu. In arena so big, even hasted, the dwarves may have a problem getting to the elves, esp if the elves are hasted or buffed, as well.


Dispel magic? Reaving Dispel? Your own fly? It's not that hard.

Core only, so none of this reaving dispel stuff. But yes, of course. I'm simply enumerating potential problems, and what to plan for. Mobility will be the main one, what with dwarves lousy move rate.


Only if your str is max buffed, and then it will be hard. They need to pin, then they can move up 10'. what are the rule for grappling whilst flying?

Wasn't being that serious about that. But itd be a humiliating defeat, wouldn't it? Flying dwarves picking your party up, then dropping them to their deaths.


Sneak attacks are never multiplied.

So they aren't.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-04-09, 10:18 PM
So when is this little thowdown going to happen anyway? I'm sure I'm not the only one who is interested in the results.

Ethdred
2007-04-10, 08:44 AM
Quote:
Don't bother with real mounts, use phantom steeds. At wizard level 5, they get a move of 100 ft, which is 200 ft on a charge. At 14th level, they fly, and have a charge of 480 ft.
Why waste the spell? You hinging that they don't dispel magic, leaving you mount-less, with a barrel of useless feats.


Yeah, but for the first round you get the incredibly fast movement, which will probably close the 2 range increment distance, so you don't care if they dispel it as you are already on them. And you've just made one caster use up a round casting a dispel which he can't then use on your Black Tentacles (or whatever). And three of you are still mounted. Obviously, don't waste feats on the mounts, just think of them as a way of closing the distance.

Sorry, a lot of what you said was good sense, but I had to pick up this point, as Phantom Steed is a really great spell in large area fights.

For the OP - how much buffing time pre-fight will you get? Spend as much of the non-csaters' cash as possible on self-buffing potions and similar eg Haste (and I think Expeditious Retreat's movement bonus gets added on top), Bull's Str, Shield of Faith, Enlarge Person (extra size for the grappling), Fly. Then your casters can concentrate on the serious buffs.

Also, there's been a lot of talk about needing to neutralise his wizard, which is usually spot on, but isn't his argument that elven archers win? So if he's forced to rely on his caster to win, then in effect he loses the argument, doesn't he?

But this sounds like it will be fun - please do let us know how it goes.

Jalil
2007-04-10, 04:18 PM
Haste (and I think Expeditious Retreat's movement bonus gets added on top),

Nah, they're both Enhancement. Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm), Retreat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/expeditiousRetreat.htm)



Also, there's been a lot of talk about needing to neutralize his wizard, which is usually spot on, but isn't his argument that elven archers win? So if he's forced to rely on his caster to win, then in effect he loses the argument, doesn't he?
He won't care. If he wins, he claims it as a victory, regardless... I've seen the type before.

To the OP, as the above have mentioned, when is this throwdown going to... throw, down?

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-10, 04:20 PM
Also, there's been a lot of talk about needing to neutralise his wizard, which is usually spot on, but isn't his argument that elven archers win? So if he's forced to rely on his caster to win, then in effect he loses the argument, doesn't he?

In any battle between wizards, all other units become peripheral.

Imagine the wizard is an aircraft carrier, and everybody else is the rest of the fleet group. Every none wizard is there to prevent the wizard from entering melee, and getting into melee with the enemy wizard.

If they really wanted to do "archer vs. melee" they'd drop the casters, as casters offer so much more than a couple sword blows or arrows /round.

Helgraf
2007-04-11, 02:37 AM
Thats a great idea. Have your cleric and barb/fighter on mounts getting the sweet lance charging bonus. You can actually have both with Spirited Charge at level 10 (though the cleric's spells will be significantly weaker than taking other feats). When you charge you'll do x3 damage with both and that applies to damage from strength and power attack.

Mmmm. Mounts. Shoot them.

Sure, enough ranks in ride + the right feats makes that strategy less viable.

motivatedjanza
2007-04-11, 05:28 PM
Mmkay, this thing got bumped off of the main page. That, and I got everything I need from here.

The "little showdown" is gonna happen probably sometime next week. I've already got my characters made. So, I is gonna start a new post entitled "Crack Dwarf Squad". Its just gonna be some questions about modifying my characters.

Finally, I am NOWHERE near ready to fight this thing. So I'd appreciate any new help or hinters yinz guys have dug up on the new thread.

Thank you all so much!!! I'll be sure to tell everyone who's interested, the details, and such.

Ethdred
2007-04-11, 09:59 PM
He won't care. If he wins, he claims it as a victory, regardless... I've seen the type before.

Ah, you may have seen a type, but is it this type? (And btw, I'm not arguing that that type exists. I have also seen it, but we're not clear if that is what is going on here.) It is very important in any strategy to be very clear about what your objectives are, and absolutely so in a one-off fight like this. No point in spending 20 turns killing all his people when the victory conditions are kill 50% of his people in 10 turns.

Glad no-one disputed my ideas for use of Phantom Steed though :)