a good lycanthrope

[j_spencer93]

ok in faerun Selune has good lycanthrope followers, can someone explain how?

[Psyren]

Wearbears are LG and several others are TN, and that's just core, so there might be even more out there.

[j_spencer93]

they slipped my mind actually but it even states werewolves. how...i thought there was a dragon magazine on this topic but couldn't find it

[atemu1234]

Re-read the template in MM. It says that not all lycanthropes (even of the same animal) are drawn to the same alignment, and that it's largely how you perceive them anyway.

For example, viewing a wolf as a noble and beautiful hunter as opposed to a godless murdering predator could make you Lawful Good instead of Chaotic Evil.

[j_spencer93]

so although it changes their alignment, it actually doesn't have to?

[DrMotives]

I remember it saying that werebeast alignment is based on social / folklore perception of the animal, so different cultures & campaigns (or regions within the same campaign) can have all sorts of "standard" alignment for the same sort of werebeast.

[j_spencer93]

this topic sounds pretty mirky lol

[atemu1234]

so although it changes their alignment, it actually doesn't have to?

Nope. Or at least not in a nonbeneficial or evil way. I like to liken it to the Id, rather than the curse being evil, it's the predatory urges of the creature with it. It's the person either way, regardless of the template.


I remember it saying that werebeast alignment is based on social / folklore perception of the animal, so different cultures & campaigns (or regions within the same campaign) can have all sorts of "standard" alignment for the same sort of werebeast.

I believe you just got Swordsage'd, my friend.

[j_spencer93]

ok thanks, was just confused because the alignment says their alignment shifts to the types if willing or has a chance to each type transformed if unwilling

[Psyren]

Re-read the template in MM. It says that not all lycanthropes (even of the same animal) are drawn to the same alignment, and that it's largely how you perceive them anyway.

For example, viewing a wolf as a noble and beautiful hunter as opposed to a godless murdering predator could make you Lawful Good instead of Chaotic Evil.


I remember it saying that werebeast alignment is based on social / folklore perception of the animal, so different cultures & campaigns (or regions within the same campaign) can have all sorts of "standard" alignment for the same sort of werebeast.

Could you quote the line in the MM this comes from? Mine says that their alignment always shifts if they are unaware they have been afflicted; even if they find out, they have to succeed at a will save to keep their normal alignment whenever they involuntarily shift. If they ever voluntarily shift, they immediately and permanently assume the alignment of their lycanthrope form.

[j_spencer93]

exactly what i am talking about

[DrMotives]

Could you quote the line in the MM this comes from? Mine says that their alignment always shifts if they are unaware they have been afflicted; even if they find out, they have to succeed at a will save to keep their normal alignment whenever they involuntarily shift. If they ever voluntarily shift, they immediately and permanently assume the alignment of their lycanthrope form.

3.5 MM, page 178.


Alignment: Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and
lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures
such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned
lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived,
not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the Dungeon
Master can arbitrarily assign the alignment of the animal form.

[j_spencer93]

ok in monsters of faerun it seems to be stricter on alignment

[Psyren]

3.5 MM, page 178.

That line just says "the DM can change this part of the template if he or she likes" - which was always the case, the DM can change anything s/he wants. It doesn't say the player or creature has any say in the matter.

That same page goes on to list the "preferred alignments" for "common lycanthropes" as matching the ones in the statblocks - these are the default unless the DM changes them.

[Coidzor]

Basically it means that the DM has free reign with just how to mess with any kind of character with any kind of lycanthropy in any kind of way without actually having to invoke rule 0 itself.

[Blackhawk748]

That line just says "the DM can change this part of the template if he or she likes" - which was always the case, the DM can change anything s/he wants. It doesn't say the player or creature has any say in the matter.

That same page goes on to list the "preferred alignments" for "common lycanthropes" as matching the ones in the statblocks - these are the default unless the DM changes them.

Personally i would have the character's perception alter this. I mean if they are a Wolf Totem Barbarian, i doubt their alignment would shift if they got bit by a werewolf, they would probably feel honored. Most people would probably flip though, but i think thats more of not being able to control a wolf's predatory instinct than it being intrinsically evil.

[j_spencer93]

ya actually i agree with blackhawk actually thinking about it

[Bronk]

ok in faerun Selune has good lycanthrope followers, can someone explain how?

Selune also sponsors a prestige class called the Silverstars (from Faiths and Pantheons). They actively try to help lycanthrope/non-lycanthrope relations and don't change alignment if they catch lycanthropy.

[Blackhawk748]

Selune also sponsors a prestige class called the Silverstars (from Faiths and Pantheons). They actively try to help lycanthrope/non-lycanthrope relations and don't change alignment if they catch lycanthropy.

I believe there is also a Ranger/Paladin ACF that lets them cure Lycanthropy, as well as few other things.

[j_spencer93]

bronk thanks

[Bronk]

Glad it helped!

[Amphetryon]

That line just says "the DM can change this part of the template if he or she likes" - which was always the case, the DM can change anything s/he wants. It doesn't say the player or creature has any say in the matter.

That same page goes on to list the "preferred alignments" for "common lycanthropes" as matching the ones in the statblocks - these are the default unless the DM changes them.

Nor did atemu1234 or DrMotives ever use the term player in their statements. Could you clarify why you felt the need to point out something they didn't say?

[Urpriest]

My assumption is that there's a setting-specific redemption thing Selune does, since this was presumably true in earlier editions when alignments were more fixed as well. This seems like the sort of thing that we need an expert on Realmslore to contribute to.

[j_spencer93]

Pretty sure a dragon magazine touches upon this but no luck finding it

[JDL]

I present you the Silverstar prestige class from Faiths and Pantheons, p. 201:


Silverstar

Silverstars are dedicated advocates of freedom and tolerance, wanderers on the path of truth, and absolute foes of Shar. They seek to build harmony among lycanthropes and nonshapechangers, and they protect the weak and the oppressed everywhere. They cannot abide slavery, and they hate most undead. They rarely settle in one place for long, instead moving along when seized by wanderlust or enticed by a new cause or mission. Sometimes they receive visions and are seen as somewhat “touched” with prophecy by their closeness to the Moonmaiden. They deal with lunar energies and phenomena and are, to a limited degree, able to wield the power of the moon, bringing its fierce, pure white light to Toril to advance the goddess’s wishes.

Clerics most often become silverstars; rangers are a less common choice. Selûne demands an individualistic outlook on life that is incompatible with the lawful nature of paladins and monks, and her passionately good and chaotic nature leaves little room for the balance a druid requires.

Silverstars are often found in large coastal cities dependent on the sea for trade and sustenance. Others prefer the outlying reaches of civilized realms, where lycanthropes are most common. Wherever they are found, silverstars actively oppose the activities and misdeeds of Shar’s followers, whether singly or in groups.

And their 6th level ability:


Selûnite Lycanthrope: Upon reaching 6th level, silverstars who contract any form of lycanthropy are treated as natural lycanthropes. Their type changes to shapechanger, and they may select the Improved Control Shape feat (see the Monster Manual) or the Scent ability as a feat (see the Monster Manual) at any point that they can select a new feat. Silverstars do not change alignment due to contracting lycanthropy and are aware of their actions while in animal or hybrid form.

So all you need to do is qualify for this prestige class, get 6 levels in it and then contract whatever form of lycanthropy you wish. Your alignment won't change by RAW.

[j_spencer93]

problem is he already caught it

[JDL]

Then find a Selûnite Cleric (preferably one that's a Silverstar) and get them to cast Atonement. This spell by RAW says the following:


This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you.

...

Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.

Reverse Magical Alignment Change
If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no cost in experience points.

Contracting lycanthropy would seem to be a pretty open and shut case of magical alignment change worthy of atonement. Heck, your party cleric could probably cast this for you in a pinch since it wouldn't cost experience.

[j_spencer93]

wouldn't it eventually change again based on the fact that each time you willingly change you make a DC to see if your alignment changes?

[JDL]

Yep, so you'd need an Atonement every time you transformed involuntarily into your animal form (but not your hybrid form). Note that willfully transforming is considered committing to your creature's alignment, so you no longer qualify for the freebie Atonement if you do this.

Thus, unless you want to become a Silverstar, you probably want that Remove Curse come the next full moon. Afflicted lycanthropy isn't a good thing to have.

[j_spencer93]

he likes that stat boost lol but ya thinking its better to say bye bye to it

[JDL]

Lycanthropy carries a range of bonuses in exchange for some severe penalties, including a level adjustment. Look at what you're getting as if it was a 2 level prestige class and ask yourself if you think this is worth it. There's a lot easier ways to get stat boosts that don't force you to save or drop all your worn equipment every time you take a quarter of your hit points in damage.

[Psyren]

Nor did atemu1234 or DrMotives ever use the term player in their statements. Could you clarify why you felt the need to point out something they didn't say?

Because they're approaching this from perspectives like "I'm a barbarian who spiritually reveres wolves, therefore I should see wolves as good and I would automatically be a good werewolf." But that is not what the template implies. When it says "the Dungeon Master can change this" - it implies that the final alignment is up to forces beyond the character's control (because in the case of a PC, it is beyond the player's control.) That line is there to reinforce that the DM can have an evil werebear if he wants one as an antagonist, or a reclusive neutral werewolf if he wants, but in-universe those are essentially up to chance or the passage of sufficient time.

The bottom line is that, in-universe, there may be good werewolves etc. but it is not the victim's choice. Even someone who has no personal issues with wolves can end up as a violent and bloodthirsty werewolf.

[j_spencer93]

ya that is were you to get to the odd alignment thing, where good and evil are black and white in planar terms but in player terms it might not be.