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Ali
2007-04-05, 04:52 PM
I plan to play a sorcerer with plenty of summoning spells, and I was wondering if anyone has any advice on prestige classes, spells, and so on.

Is it a good plan to pick all the Summon Monster spells at each level? Is Augment Summoning worth it? What I was planning to do was make a sorcerer who focuses on staying out of the way in combat while he summons hordes of outsiders to fight for him.

I have looked around, but most conjuring builds I have seen are wizards specialized in conjuration. Is there anyone out there who has played a sorcerer conjurer successfully that could offer advice?

Ranis
2007-04-05, 04:59 PM
Play a Druid instead. They summon better.

Hario
2007-04-05, 05:00 PM
Thaumathurge (SP?) from the DMG is pretty good you need augment summoning, which you should have, but before everyone says this an possibly ninja's druid is the quintessencial summoner, so if you want to be a better summoner, play a druid, no seriously, I'm not lieing... ;P

Clementx
2007-04-05, 05:00 PM
IT'S A TRAP!

At first glance, Summon spells seem like a great idea- you get multiple options that let you customize what you do battle to battle. Then you actually read what those monsters can do, and "underwhelmed" is the operative word. Spontaneous casters can't use Rapid Spell on Summon Monster X spells, so it sucks always casting these 1-round spells. Getting a lot of them just eats spell slots that a sorcerer needs. It is interesting, but you need a lot of work to make the strong. But if you are the sort of person that plays blasters because they are fun and flashy, conjuring might be a fun alternative.

EvilRoeSlade
2007-04-05, 05:01 PM
Summon monsters - Take them all, and whenever you get a chance to exchange a lower-level spell, swap one out for something else that's of use to you.
Augment Summoning - Hell yes.
Other advice... look for a way to be able to cast metamagic feats without penalty, so you can use Rapid Spell effectively. Consider taking Improved Familiar, you can never have enough outsiders to do your bidding. And look at prestige classes designed for summoners, like Alienist, Malconvoker, and Thamaturgist, they're all golden.

Amiria
2007-04-05, 05:03 PM
Wizard(Conjurer)/Master Specialist is better than sorcerer for this. Master Specialist makes monsters hardier (more hp), harder to dispel (in fact all you conjuration spells) and quickens summonings.

Also get the Rapid Summoning variant (give up your familiar) from Unearthed Arcana.

Augment Summoning is well worth it for such a character.

Thaumaturgist doesn't work. It is a PrC for divine casters !

TheOOB
2007-04-05, 06:24 PM
Consider taking Improved Familiar, you can never have enough outsiders to do your bidding.

Improved familiar is rarely worth it, as they new familiars offer very little more then normal ones, and if it does start making a difference and being useful, it starts to become a valid target for your enemies...the last thing you want is to give your foes a reason to target your familiar.

Summoning can be useful, but it's important to note that a build based purely only summoning isn't all that great. Ironically, summon spells are acually fairly limted in use. Due to the long casting times and the weak monsters you summon, they usually don't make a huge impact on battle alone. You have to use the monsters tactically, maybe summoning a bunch of celestial dogs to flank a target, or using water elementals to overturn a boat.

Fizban
2007-04-05, 07:18 PM
Don't use the summon monster line, use other summon spells. Calling spells are even better, planar binding works great with charisma, and the call inevitable and dragon ally spells function more like planar ally, bypassing the need for a trap. Summon spells with concentration get you monsters strong enough to use, typically at CR of around twice the spell level. Here's some spells:

Manifest Dragon Heritage/Greater (Races of the Dragon): summons a wyvern with bonus hp, greater summons a dragon turtle with the same, you lose a few hp if it dies.

Summon Aspect of Bahamut (or Tiamat if evil) (Spell Compendium): concentration up to 1 round/level, CRs of around 12-14. I'm not sure on the name, or the book, but that's what I think they are.

Call Kolyarut, Zelekhut, and Marut (Spell Compendium): xp cost like planar ally, but no bribe required, always lasts for 1 hour. The wording of your "specific task" may matter.

Dragon Ally lesser, normal, and greater (Spell Compendium): xp cost and expensive bribe, but you get a whole dragon.

Call of the Twilight Defender (Dragon Magic): summons a dragon shaped plant with a poison sting, can sacrifice itself and heal you of half it's remaining hp.

Summon Elemental Monolith (Complete Mage): summons a CR 17 or 19 elemental but requires concentration.

Summon Golem (PHBII): summons a flesh, clay, or iron golem, lasts for 1 minute/level.

Heavenly Host, Fierce Pride of the Beastlands, Demonic Horde, and Infernal Army (Spell Compendium): long lasting summons similar to Elemental Swarm.

I've not actually used any of these, but they all summon better creatures than the base summon monster. In general with summon monster, you choose a creature for it's SLAs.

There's a substitution level in the Planar Handbook for sorcerers that lets you sacrifice slots to summon basic elementals at the same level you would summon monster them, but you can't take it till 12th, and it costs a 6th level spell known.

The Thamaturgist is good, but it requires a spell not on the sorcerer list. It focuses on Planar Ally, but if you can get your DM to let it work with other spells (such as Dragon Ally), it would be good. Or you can try and get the summoning domain through the Arcane Disciple feat or a PrC (but you'll still have to use a spell known to learn it).

PinkysBrain
2007-04-05, 07:40 PM
If you are playing it core, don't do it ... at higher levels your summons will be almost completely useles, and being useless is just no fun.

If you aren't playing it core I'd recommend dipping alienist and using the imbued summoning metamagic feat perhaps with arcane thesis (retrain it occasionally to higher level spells). The combination of imbued summoning and alienist works well, because now all your summons have a buff and the ability to actually hit something ... at least once (they have true strike once a day).

For a simple example of what you can do with this use the heroics spell from the Spell Compendium to give your summons power attack. You are now summoning critters who can afford on their first attack to power attack for full, doing much more damage than usual (infinitely more than usual actually, since usually they can't hit the broadside of a barn with their pathetic BAB).

Aximili
2007-04-05, 08:05 PM
The Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel) is kind of good for the sorceror.
I mean, he loses a caster level, which is unacceptable for full-casters. But you might like the concept (I love it) and his abilities don't suck (and your bluff modifier will be more than any summoned creature can handle).

Put him together with all the spells suggested by Fizban, and you just might have a big load of fun.

the_tick_rules
2007-04-05, 08:09 PM
always summon monsters opposed to your alignment and morals.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-05, 09:36 PM
augmented summoning is hella good for this scro, get it and get it good. as for PrC check out the Malconvoker (complete scoundrel) for some pwnage

storybookknight
2007-04-05, 11:33 PM
If you want to do divine summoning instead, Ashbound Druids in Eberron can get bonuses to summoned monsters which stack with those from Augment Summons. I think there's even a prestige class (in Magic of Eberron, maybe?) which gives a third, stacking, bonus to elemental summons.

Dausuul
2007-04-06, 12:01 AM
Is anyone else highly annoyed by the fact that the first two posts in this thread said "Play a druid instead?"

Sheesh, folks, the guy didn't ask what the best summoning class was, he said he wanted to play a sorceror summoner and asked for advice. He even said he'd specifically looked at summoning builds based on other classes and rejected them.

Anyway, that said...

Augment Summoning is a no-brainer. Haste is also key, and consider a metamagic rod of extend if you're starting at a lower level. Above all, however, remember that you are at your strongest by far if you have several rounds to summon before combat--then you can wade into battle with a small army of hasted summons. Ideally, you can get the party cleric to back you up with prayer and the like, since clerics have more area-buffs than arcane casters. Your superior number of spells per day is your advantage. Use it aggressively.

That being the case, spells that give you those pre-combat summoning rounds are vital. Wall of force and dimension door are good ones (and you should have them anyway, for general utility). Invisibility is a must-have, since summons don't break invis; if you have to summon in combat instead of before it, you can do so safely under invisibility and maybe levitate. Use scrying, prying eyes, or just the good old-fashioned party rogue to give you advance warning of monsters up ahead.

And, of course, learn the stats for every single monster on your list of summons! The summon monster spells are notably underpowered; but they do offer versatility, so make the most of it.

Shisumo
2007-04-06, 01:04 AM
Infernal Sorcerer Heritage makes an interesting lead-in to the malconvoker class.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-06, 01:10 AM
Grab the feat Leadership and get a Bard as your cohort to Inspire your minions.

Don't forget to sink some spells into Divination so you can properly summon up plenty of minions to do your bidding.

Don't neglect your battlefield control. Example: Can you summon something incorporeal? Make sure to grab Solid Fog, which incorporeal critters go through without penalty, but opponents are stuck in.

Taking multiple Summon Monster spells known is not always a good idea. Only grab a Summon Monster spell if it can summon you want to use. Only keep a Summon Monster spell if it summons something useful, or if you don't want any other spells of that spell level.

Don't neglect flanking opportunities when placing minions! Particularly not if you have a sneak attack specialist in the party.

Ali
2007-04-06, 08:46 AM
Thank you all for your help. I like the sound of the Malconvoker... I will look into that.

Some of the spells suggested sound pretty cool, it's just finding the books that contain them that is the problem. *Grins.*

I apreciate that druids are good conjurers, but like Dausuul said, I am pretty much set on being a sorcerer.

ken-do-nim
2007-04-06, 09:28 AM
Grab the feat Leadership and get a Bard as your cohort to Inspire your minions.


Beat me to the punch! Yes, one of my house rules is that when a bard is inspiring courage, the moment an ally hears it they get the bonus. This means that if the bard is singing, the instant the summons pop in they get the benefit. This could be how it is supposed to work, but it is not spelled out.

I also highly recommend the individualized summoning variant, so you can give your key summons (archons, then bralanis, then guardinals) magic items.

Please, please don't listen to all these other posters and abandon sorcerer for druid. Druids summon some mighty animals, true, but in the end the summon monster list has spell-casters and nearly everything has damage reduction magic. When you get to 12th level and summon your first bralani you'll be happy as he protects the party with wind wall, runs around doing cure serious wounds and blur, and best of all uses his wind blast to cut through any foes damage reduction. When you finally get summon monster IX, you can get leonals which look SO fun to play. Check 'em out.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-06, 09:36 AM
The Bralani dishing out 3d6 a round is rather pathetic damage for a 6th level spell even if it persists for multiple rounds. As for healing summons, the druid gets them earlier (unicorn).

ken-do-nim
2007-04-06, 10:12 AM
The Bralani dishing out 3d6 a round is rather pathetic damage for a 6th level spell even if it persists for multiple rounds. As for healing summons, the druid gets them earlier (unicorn).

3d6 looked pretty good when I used it against all the golems we ran into that the rest of the party couldn't hurt. I still say that bralanis are really fun.

Good point about the unicorns.

Jalil
2007-04-06, 10:33 AM
I just submitted a sorc with the same idea. Start human, taking PHBII's variant to lose a familiar for normal metamagic. Starting feats of Spell Focus and Augment Summoning, lvl 3 get rapid spell, and 6 take arcane thesis. Try to talk your DM into allow it to apply to the entire Summon Monster tree, otherwise, as said above, retrain. lvl 7, get into malconvoker. you start to lose out after lvl5, but at that point, you won't get another capstone, as you'll be lvl 11.

5 minutes later: Ok, take fate spinner 4, another lvl of Malconvoker, then either wayfarer 3 or malconvoker 3, depending on what suits you. That's what I'm going to do, anyway.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-06, 06:14 PM
Between malconvoker and sorcerer you get too far behind on spell progression IMO. Too suboptimal, do it with a specialist wizard instead.

Fizban
2007-04-06, 06:38 PM
More stuff to talk your DM into:

There's a conjurer variant that sacrifices the familiar to cast summon monster spells as a standard action.

I saw a homebrewed feat that allowed a sorcerer to learn all the rest of the spells in a series, such as summon monster or planar binding. A good prerequisite might be to already have two of the spells, so that you're committed to the line before you take the feat.