Dodge Action: Is it apparent?

[Kryx]

Is it visibly determinable if a creature takes the dodge action?


My thoughts: Yes. The creature is actively preparing himself to dodge attacks. I'd also say readying an action is apparent in that a creature could see that another creature is preparing a response.

But maybe I'm wrong. Plz advise.

[calebrus]

Dodge would absolutely be visible, yes. It's 5e's version of Full Defense. You're turtled up, however is most appropriate for your fighting style.

A Readied Action may or may not have a visible tell, depending on the action you have readied.

[Fwiffo86]

Is it visibly determinable if a creature takes the dodge action?


My thoughts: Yes. The creature is actively preparing himself to dodge attacks. I'd also say readying an action is apparent in that a creature could see that another creature is preparing a response.

But maybe I'm wrong. Plz advise.

I would agree. If nothing for the fact that they aren't actually attacking, or making any attempt to do so. If you follow the ideology that during the course of a round multiple attacks and defenses are used (rolls just being the highlights of that exchange) then it should be readily apparent that someone is dodging as opposed to engaging in a battle completely.

As far as readying an action.... I suppose you could see that too, but not necessarily what they are attempting to do when the trigger comes around. For instance, if they are waiting to attack someone, they really are just sitting there holding a weapon/spell/etc. It's not really easily apparent. Certainly something you could roll for skill wise if you had too.

[Kryx]

As far as readying an action.... I suppose you could see that too, but not necessarily what they are attempting to do when the trigger comes around. For instance, if they are waiting to attack someone, they really are just sitting there holding a weapon/spell/etc. It's not really easily apparent.
I agree and didn't intend to apply that you could see what was being readied (unless it is a spell which I'd handle w/ an Arcana check).

[Mandragola]

Someone readying a spell actually casts it and holds it with concentration, so you should be able to tell unless they've done something subtle.

So I'd sort of expect something similar with other weapons. Maybe they've knocked an arrow and pulled the bow back, or are holding their sword up in the air or something like that.

Of course, a lot of the time they will be readying an action because they can't see a target, and when the target does appear it will get ambushed.

[DragonSinged]

I'm going to disagree with most of the replies here. I do have some real-world experience I'm basing this off of - 14 years of Tae Kwon Do, 1 year of Karate, 9 years of fencing (sword and shield, sword and dagger, paired swords), some archery and naginata as well.

For combat, if someone is planning on dodging or readying a counterattack, no, you can't tell just from looking at them that that's what they're doing, unless you can read minds - at least in any of the styles I've practiced. There might be more defensive stances, but you can still fight from those.
I'd say for dodging, I'd compromise with saying that after an enemy has attacked someone who is dodging at least once, maybe after that they can tell when that particular character is dodging? Or if the character is trying to hide their intentions to dodge, maybe allow a deception roll vs the enemy's insight.

As far as readying magic, I'd say that the enemy can probably tell when a character is readying a spell, but not necessarily for what purpose - not all magic is immediately visible, after all. Maybe taking a cue from Counterspell, allow an Arcana check with a DC of 10 + the spell level to determine, if not the precise spell being cast, at least the general type of spell being held.

I'm just picturing a situation where if I were playing a tanky type of character, and I was in combat with some enemies, and I say I'm taking a dodge action, and then the GM replied, "Ok, seeing that you're dodging, the enemies attack your allies instead" I might feel a little cheated.

[Oscredwin]

Couldn't a GWF fighter who is dodging do so by attacking the weapons of his enemies, doing something that looks very much like an attack but won't really hit the other person(s) unless they do something silly (like cause an AoO).

[Kryx]

For combat, if someone is planning on dodging or readying a counterattack, no, you can't tell just from looking at them that that's what they're doing, unless you can read minds.
RL based D&D arguments are fun and all, but plz nooo...

Mechanics Counterpoint: If dodging is not apparent it then looks like the creature did absolutely nothing. Unless you have a way to explain that?



As far as readying magic, I'd say that the enemy can probably tell when a character is readying a spell
Not probably, definitely. As long as the spell is visible as the caster has to hold the charge. I agree on the Arcana though.


I'm just picturing a situation where if I were playing a tanky type of character, and I was in combat with some enemies, and I say I'm taking a dodge action, and then the GM replied, "Ok, seeing that you're dodging, the enemies attack your allies instead" I might feel a little cheated.
That's definitely what happened. It's logical/tactical for a creature to seek an easier target if a heavily armored creature is actively avoiding their attacks. A PC would do it just the same.



Couldn't a GWF fighter who is dodging do so by attacking the weapons of his enemies, doing something that looks very much like an attack but won't really hit the other person(s) unless they do something silly (like cause an AoO).
Not sure I understand this... You're either dodging or sundering (attacking a weapon). Dodging =/= Sundering.

[DragonSinged]

RL based D&D arguments are fun and all, but plz nooo...

Mechanics Counterpoint: If dodging is not apparent it then looks like the creature did absolutely nothing. Unless you have a way to explain that?
That's definitely what happened. It's logical/tactical for a creature to seek an easier target if a heavily armored creature is actively avoiding their attacks. A PC would do it just the same.


Look, I get that D&D =/= real life, but if you're planning on dodging someone's attacks, you don't just start bobbing and weaving on the spot before anyone even attacks you. You look as if you're ready to keep fighting, but then when someone attacks you you dodge out of the way. It's not apparent until you're already under attack.
As far as "looking like the creature did absolutely nothing", the explanation is that sometimes people pause during a fight. I know, in D&D, everyone always attacks at least once per 6 seconds because that's how rounds work, but that's just a mechanics thing. Actually, people pause sometimes, to take their opponents measure, catch their breath, or just because they don't see an opening right at that moment. If I hit a guy, and then 8 seconds later I haven't hit him a second time, I don't see how he's going to think I'm suddenly a more difficult target, and he better move on. Like I said, though, if he goes to hit me, and I weave out of the way, and he tries again, and I do the same thing, then yeah, he might think "dang this guy is hard to hit, maybe that other guy will be easier."
I just don't see how, when I declare my character is going to dodge, that's visible in any way. It's not like I get a flashing marker over my character's head that says "IN DODGE MODE" or anything.

Likewise, though, if you're GMing, the same thing goes for the players. If you decide a monster or enemy is going to dodge, I wouldn't tell the players that's what it's doing. I'd (maybe) secretly roll a dice, then tell them the creature's turn is done, next player.

[Kryx]

but that's just a mechanics thing. Actually, people pause sometimes, to take their opponents measure, catch their breath, or just because they don't see an opening right at that moment.
Exactly the point. Dodging is a mechanic. And you may fluff it away to whatever you want, but by RAW mechanics there is no other explanation. You're free to play that way, but that doesn't follow the mechanics (it's not wrong).

Reasoning for why it's apparent I laid out above, but I'll try again:
The creature dodging stops being offensive and starts focusing more on your movements and not taking actions of his own. imo that's incredibly apparent that he's either readying an action or dodging. (imo they'd look different)

[DragonSinged]

Exactly the point. Dodging is a mechanic. And you may fluff it away to whatever you want, but by RAW mechanics there is no other explanation. You're free to play that way, but that doesn't follow the mechanics (it's not wrong).

Reasoning for why it's apparent I laid out above, but I'll try again:
The creature dodging stops being offensive and starts focusing more on your movements and not taking actions of his own. imo that's incredibly apparent that he's either readying an action or dodging. (imo they'd look different)

Well as long as you're aware that that's just your opinion, you're of course free to do as you wish in your game - and if your players are happy with it, more power to you.

I guess it boils down to how you play D&D. I know for a lot of people (I noticed this a lot with 3.5 on the forums) D&D is just a set of rules for a mechanical game, and you go into combat and manipulate those rules in the most advantageous way you can.

That's not how my group plays the game, and that's not how I run them, either, which is probably why I'm objecting in this thread - we try to get into our characters heads, not every enemy is a fanatic willing to fight to the death to knock a few more HP off the PC's regardless of the circumstances, etc. - not saying that's how your game goes, just that it's how some do, and it feels like maybe yours is closer to that end of the spectrum than mine is (based on a very narrow range of evidence, obviously, sorry if I'm way off.)

Anyways, rambling here, but what it boils down to is you asked for opinions on if Dodge is visible. Since it's not in the rules one way or another, all I have to base my opinion off if is how it actually works in real life, and how that works is no, it's not visible. It might be in, like, anime, as an example? It's really just not in actual combat, though.
So that's me answering your question, hope it's useful.

[Kryx]

all I have to base my opinion off if is how it actually works in real life, and how that works is no, it's not visible.
But we're looking at it from a mechanical point of view. RL doesn't have rounds and the things that DnD has. From a rounds perspective you either did nothing (stood still) or you prepared yourself to dodge. Those surely look different.

I don't mean to say that my way is 100% RAW correct as it's not spelled out, but it's the only interpretation that I can see based on game mechanics. (though please correct me if there are other interpretations based on mechanics).

I agree with what you say in that some people play differently, but imo this is a mechanics question, not a fluff question.

[Solusek]

Really I think the best way to handle it is to not specifically spell out to the players when a creature is dodging. NPC's should also act as though they don't know for sure either when a PC does it. Now if a monsters turn comes up and they don't do anything you certainly can try to narrow down what their actions could have been. A lot of times it will just be a guess between "did they dodge or did they ready"? Once someone makes an attack against that target and the DM says to roll two dice because you have disadvantage it becomes obvious and everyone at the table can now see "oh, he's dodging this turn, ok."

It gets a bit more tricky to guess in the case of opponents that may have multiple actions:

A monk could make an attack and use some ki to also dodge that round. But his opponents shouldn't know for sure that he is dodging or not until one of them attacks him and sees the disadvantage and the flavor text of him dancing away from the attack as it comes in. Now if those opponents peg him as a monk and know what monks can do they could certainly make a guess that he might have used a ki point to dodge - but they wouldn't know for sure because he also might not have used the ki point. Maybe he's out of ki points that day for all they know.

A rogue could use her bonus action to dash, and use her regular action to dodge. For all the opponents know she used her whole turn dashing and is vulnerable now. Again, unless they peg her as a rogue and can make a guess that she bonus dashed. They still might not know if she readied or dodged with her regular action, though.

A sorcerer could cast a subtle spell with no visible effect. Opponents might assume he either readied or dodged with his action if they didn't know he was capable of casting subtle spells, which could influence how they treat him as a target that round.

In cases like these it's much less obvious what they are doing until someone makes an attack and can see the disadvantage or not. That is how I would play it. Let players (and NPCs) guess about what action their opponent might be taking in the case of dodge/ready/whatever. I like a little bit of mystery, guessing, and bluffing to go on during combat.

[Laurefindel]

The creature dodging stops being offensive and starts focusing more on your movements and not taking actions of his own.

I'm not sure to what extent this would be obvious over a period of a few seconds. The creature does not have attacks to sidestep until it is attacked, and "dodge" may just as well mean that weapons and shield are used to deflect attacks. Combatants are always on the edge in a fight, always ready to sidestep and deflect attacks (unless it is a barbarian fighting recklessly). IMO, it would require a lot of experience to differ between "creature is about to dodge" and "creature in front of me is about to step aside to flank me" in the heat of battle and over the course of a 6 second round.

That's what "makes sense" to me, but D&D is a game with a distinct engine, simulating combat. Actions are pretty transparent in D&D. When they are not, that's because someone has a special ability to obfuscate its intention/actions (i.e. feint manoeuvre, subtle casting etc).

So IMO, regardless of what the characters see/think/interpret, the player should be allowed to know whether the opponent is using the dodge action unless the opponent has an ability or a situation makes it an exception to the general rule.