3.5e save-or-die optimized wizard

[Xathrax]

Hello everyone!

I recently started playing with a new group and I feel like pointing my finger at stuff and making it drop dead. Most of this stuff is Necromancy and I have a Paladin in the group who'd object to some of this stuff.

What I want to do is build towards optimal save or die tactics(we are currently level 1 and I realize that untill level 7+ this ain't gonna happen). I am allowed most books with the exception of Unearted Arcana, Magic of Incarnum, Dragon Magazines and Book of Battle anything not related to the Forgotten Realms setting and psionics. My character also cannot be evil aligned. I can probably get away with a bit of evil stuff, but I know at least some rocks will fall on my head as the GM hates evil characters.

I am currently a Human Wizard and since my GM is nice enough I still haven't selected my 2 feats, but since I want to enter Halruaan Elder I will have Spell Thematics for sure that will be fluffed as making my spells look like bright light masking my necromancy as good spells(Die, evildoer! My power of light will slay you!). I will get Halruuan Adept as a free regional feat. I may or may not be able to get a free metamagic feat from the metamagic storm.

My vision for the future is something with Slay Living, Chain Spell, Split Ray and stuff like that to make at least the minions just drop dead.

My current ideas:

1 Wizard - 2 Feats(Spell Thematics)
2 Wizard
3 Wizard - 1 Feat
4 Wizard
5 Wizard - 1 Free Metamagic
6 Arcane Prcs - Arcane Thesis(undecided kill spell)
7 Arcane Prcs
8 Halruuan Elder
9 Halruuan Elder
10 Halruuan Elder
11 Halruuan Elder
12-x undecided

I'd love help with the following:

1. What arcane prestige class should I fill in level 6/7? I will be shot on sight if I pick Incantatrix as I managed to break a game with it before. I was thinking about 4 level of Master Specialist at level 4-7 for the Greater Spell Focus since the total +2 to save DC is very important for save or die, but I'd be missing out on 2 metamagic feats that I could potentially apply to my Arcane Thesis spell at a discount.

2. How could I best exploit the Arcane Thesis/Elder metamagic reduction to make my kill spell most efficient? Ideally I'd want to chain spell the room, but I don't think it's possible untill higher level(I prefer to plan up to level 9 or so).

Your input would be greatly appreciated! Tips how to fluff it up to avoid the paladin smiting me would be useful too! :p

[Flickerdart]

Your favourite metamagic is probably going to be Heighten - raising the DCs on your "oldie but goodie" spells is very useful. Earth Spell is thus a handy feat to have.

The problem with Necromancy and SoDs in general is that it's super easy to be straight up immune to it. At the same level you expect your strategy to come online, Death Ward means that all of it is pointless. So you'll want to invest in a range of things:

Your bread and butter will probably be various nasty Fort-save Necromancy spells.
Many enemies have very good Fort saves, but lousy Will saves. Have some spells that target it.
Many enemies have good saves for both. Have at least one Reflex spell (such as Grease)
Many enemies have stupid high saves in general. At least one touch attack no-save spell.
Versions of some or all of these that don't allow SR, for when you face golems.
Speaking of golems, undead will laugh at all your SoDs. As a necromancer, you need not slay them when you can subvert them to serve your purposes. Grab spells that allow you to command the dead, and send them against your living enemies.

[Crazysaneman]

Out of curiosity, are you building to WBL or an assigned gold amount? Are you allowed to use Metamagic Rods?

[Deophaun]

Have the dragonblood subtype and pick up a pair of barbs of retribution from the MIC.

[(Un)Inspired]

Pick your favorite infinite CL trick then go psion into cerebremancer with the psiotheurgist feat and hit whoever you want dead with a super augmented Death Urge.

[Xathrax]

Those were some quick responses! Thanks!

I have thought about earth spell with heighten, but that will end up eating a ton of feats. Not to mention this doesn't interact with arcane thesis, nor halruuan elder. Finally heightening a save or die spell already implies a very high spell level and I'd prefer to start doing fun stuff earlier.

Also great point about undead, golems and death wards. I will think of a plan B for that. However commanding undead is a no-no as the paladin will try to chop me up for that.


I think we will have around the proper WBL, but the DM tends to be quite restrictive with expensive magic items. I will certainly use some extend rods, but not sure if I can get my hands on the expensive ones(suggestions still welcome)


Finally no psionics(forgot to mention) and I prefer no infinite cheese as people will slap me for breaking the balance.

[Flickerdart]

Also great point about undead, golems and death wards. I will think of a plan B for that. However commanding undead is a no-no as the paladin will try to chop me up for that.
I mean quite literally the spell command undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) which is basically suggestion VS undead foes. When you run into a vampire, you can just tell it to bugger off and it must obey (taking all of its troublesome spawn with it). The days/level duration certainly doesn't hurt, and the no-save effect against mindless zombies means you can divest enemy necromancers of their most powerful minions.

[Hamste]

Disintegrate and flesh to ice are both great counters as well

[dextercorvia]

For optimizing your Save DCs, I like the Aligned Spellcaster ACF (Dragon Mag, Evil), Abyssal Specialist (DotU), Shadow Weave Magic, Spell Focus Evil, and perhaps Fiendish Heritage+Power.

[Xathrax]

For optimizing your Save DCs, I like the Aligned Spellcaster ACF (Dragon Mag, Evil), Abyssal Specialist (DotU), Shadow Weave Magic, Spell Focus Evil, and perhaps Fiendish Heritage+Power.

Dragon Mag, sadly, isn't allowed as well(I'll probably update the original post).

I'll check Abyssal Specialist.

Spell Focus Evil and Fiendish Heritage+Power is a good catch. I browsed spells and could only find Stop Heart as a save or die spell. I'm not certain if I wanna focus so much on the evil aspect as I know my GM hates evil characters, but in any case wouldn't I end up burning pretty much all my feats to boost the DC which, again, doesn't allow me to use any cool metamagic and abuse the reduced metamagic cost.

[dextercorvia]

Dragon Mag, sadly, isn't allowed as well(I'll probably update the original post).

I'll check Abyssal Specialist.

Spell Focus Evil and Fiendish Heritage+Power is a good catch. I browsed spells and could only find Stop Heart as a save or die spell. I'm not certain if I wanna focus so much on the evil aspect as I know my GM hates evil characters, but in any case wouldn't I end up burning pretty much all my feats to boost the DC which, again, doesn't allow me to use any cool metamagic and abuse the reduced metamagic cost.

Without Aligned Spellcaster, the rest aren't really worth using. That is the ACF that makes all your spells have that alignment descriptor. Shadow Weave Magic will keep working, though.

[Callin]

Dont forget the Wrack spell. Conjuration can be used for those times when SoD is no good or you could just battlefield control.

[Xathrax]

Dont forget the Wrack spell. Conjuration can be used for those times when SoD is no good or you could just battlefield control.

You are right. Wrack seems quite good since it's ranged as well.

So any ideas of fun ways to combo all of this with metamagic?

[gorfnab]

So any ideas of fun ways to combo all of this with metamagic?
If the spell deals damage then tacking on Fell Drain can be an option.

[Xathrax]

If the spell deals damage then tacking on Fell Drain can be an option.

Yes, that does work. However it's not really a save or die.

[Xathrax]

Actually, I now have a plan B:

1 Wizard - Spell Focus(Illusion), Metamagic School Focus
2 Wizard
3 Wizard - *metamagic feat*
4 Master Specialist - Skill Focus(Spellcraft)
5 Master Specialist
6 Master Specialist - Greater Spell Focus(Illusion), Arcane Thesis(Phantasmal Killer)
7 Master Specialist - +2 to Illusion DC

So this leaves me with a +4 DC to Illusion spells. With my current 18 INT, a +4 INT items that I can get by level 7 I will have a total of 24 DC for Phantasmal Killer which I can already chain by using Metamagic School Focus. At level 9 it could go up to 26 if I get heighten and put all additional points into INT.

This doesn't let me dominate all encounters, but at least once per day I can try to do something really flashy. I still like necromancy better and the 2 saves from Phantasmal Killer is harsh, but at least I can pull it off earlier.

[dextercorvia]

How are you taking Arcane Thesis on Phantasmal Killer at level 6? You can't cast it yet. Building Metamagic School Focus and Arcane Thesis into your build, without even knowing which one metamagic feat you want to try to put in there seems like a waste.

Also, Illusion does not have very many save of dies, and Phantasmal Killer is pretty bad, being both [Mind-Affecting] and a death attack, as well as requiring your opponent to fail two different saving throws.

[Kraken]

Have you considered using transmutation spells such as flesh to stone, flesh to ice, or baleful polymorph? Very few things are immune to polymorphing.

[nedz]

Your Plan B surprised me. Illusions aren't really known for SoDs, SoLs yes, but SoDs — not so much. Also, PK is an awful spell — TWO SAVES. Plus you forgot Gnome — for a further +1 DC with Illusions.

[Xathrax]

How are you taking Arcane Thesis on Phantasmal Killer at level 6? You can't cast it yet. Building Metamagic School Focus and Arcane Thesis into your build, without even knowing which one metamagic feat you want to try to put in there seems like a waste.

Also, Illusion does not have very many save of dies, and Phantasmal Killer is pretty bad, being both [Mind-Affecting] and a death attack, as well as requiring your opponent to fail two different saving throws.

You are right, for some reason I forgot that it's "choose a spell you can cast" rather than "choose a spell". That goes out of the window. Also I did state that I was planning to use chain spell with it. I chose Illusion because I think this is the first SoD I could find in addition to Master Specialist giving you a +2 bonus to the DC. I think even with two saves at level 7 a DC 24 saving throw has a very good chance to succeed. I suppose later on I can take 5 levels of Dread Witch for another +2 to the DC and being able to affect stuff immune to fear. It's a bit further than I'd like to plan for, but at level 12 with Heighten Spell the DC would be 29(with a +6 INT item) which seems acceptable.


Have you considered using transmutation spells such as flesh to stone, flesh to ice, or baleful polymorph? Very few things are immune to polymorphing.

Yes, I did think about it, but the Flesh to X spells make it complicated to retrieve gear. Baleful polymorph does fit, but it doesn't really feel any better than Wrack. Not to mention Necromancy probably benefits far more from the extra DC.


Your Plan B surprised me. Illusions aren't really known for SoDs, SoLs yes, but SoDs — not so much. Also, PK is an awful spell — TWO SAVES. Plus you forgot Gnome — for a further +1 DC with Illusions.

I do agree that it's probably the worst SoD, but it comes in one level early and at a 2 higher DC which made me believe that it could be quite probable to kill stuff with it. That's not taking into consideration that my chain spell/arcane thesis goes out of the window untill level 9 as pointed out by dextercorvia.

[ericgrau]

A +5 can be pretty reliable against most foes. If you can manage a +7 or so you might even SoD BBEGs. Immunities are also a big problem.

Reflex saves on monsters tend to be 2 points lower than the average. Resilient sphere is only 4th level. It's not a SoD, but it doesn't merely hamper foes like many SoLs. You can finish off all the other foes, heal up, prep, then gank the monster. So it may as well be a SoD. So with resilient sphere and greater spell focus (evocation), that's already 4 points which is pretty close to reliable against most foes. Some foes may be high reflex but even then saves don't tend to vary by more than 2-4 points. So against most of them it's still break even or better and you only need backup spells for corner cases. Rarely can low level foes teleport but it will become an issue later. By then you'll have your higher level options online.

The problem with that is if you want to switch to actual death effects then it'll eat 2 feats unless you find some other way to boost the DC. It could instead be an early strat until your build comes online and it's still 2 points better on the saves.

Boosting int up to high heaven is another obvious way, and it works on all spells. Though I suppose it's a bit late to switch to an old aged grey elf

[Xathrax]

Reflex saves on monsters tend to be 2 points lower than the average. Resilient sphere is only 4th level. It's not a SoD, but it doesn't merely hamper foes like many SoLs. You can finish off all the other foes, heal up, prep, then gank the monster. So it may as well be a SoD. So with resilient sphere and greater spell focus (evocation), that's already 4 points which is pretty close to reliable against most foes. Some foes may be high reflex but even then saves don't tend to vary by more than 2-4 points. So against most of them it's still break even or better and you only need backup spells for corner cases. Rarely can low level foes teleport but it will become an issue later. By then you'll have your higher level options online.

The problem with this option is that it when you encounter a single dangerous opponent it will just let you get some time to buff. This is nice, but not what I'm aiming for. Not to mention any self respecting spellcaster will just dispel himself out of it or use the time to buff as well.


Boosting int up to high heaven is another obvious way, and it works on all spells. Though I suppose it's a bit late to switch to an old aged grey elf

I had a bit more restrictions with races, but I'd never go with an old aged wizard at level 1. The -4 to CON will mean that you will either spend a high roll on CON or risk dying during the very first encounter.


Perhaps someone has some suggestions with particular class and feat combinations? That would be most helpful.

[Flickerdart]

I had a bit more restrictions with races, but I'd never go with an old aged wizard at level 1. The -4 to CON will mean that you will either spend a high roll on CON or risk dying during the very first encounter.
-3, but either way Faerie Mysteries Initiate will make that stop being a problem. Shag an elf, base HP on INT!

[Xathrax]

-3, but either way Faerie Mysteries Initiate will make that stop being a problem. Shag an elf, base HP on INT!

Which would be awesome if I could use Dragon Mag and be able to drag around an elf to shag every day. If not for those two implications the feat would be crazy good.

[Flickerdart]

Which would be awesome if I could use Dragon Mag and be able to drag around an elf to shag every day. If not for those two implications the feat would be crazy good.
You need to do the deed but once. The ritual's effects persist until you do it again - "Granted effects last until the next time you perform the Faerie Mysteries.".

[Xathrax]

You need to do the deed but once. The ritual's effects persist until you do it again - "Granted effects last until the next time you perform the Faerie Mysteries.".

Ok, that makes it way better. Still, I wouldn't be able to take the feat due to the source. To be honest I think it's too bonkers for a sane GM to allow it anyways. It's no DMM, but it probably lets you have more hitpoints than the barbarian.

[dextercorvia]

You are right, for some reason I forgot that it's "choose a spell you can cast" rather than "choose a spell". That goes out of the window. Also I did state that I was planning to use chain spell with it. I chose Illusion because I think this is the first SoD I could find in addition to Master Specialist giving you a +2 bonus to the DC. I think even with two saves at level 7 a DC 24 saving throw has a very good chance to succeed. I suppose later on I can take 5 levels of Dread Witch for another +2 to the DC and being able to affect stuff immune to fear. It's a bit further than I'd like to plan for, but at level 12 with Heighten Spell the DC would be 29(with a +6 INT item) which seems acceptable.


Waiting until level 9 isn't so awful anyway, as Chain Spell is a +3 metamagic. So, with Arcane Thesis and Metamagic School Focus, you'll still need a 5th level slot to chain Phantasmal Killer. Honestly, focusing on chaining it sooner is probably better than focusing on pumping the save DC sky high.