Help me break my pathfinder druid!

[Jaguira]

I'm entering a casual Pathfinder tournament where characters fight one-on-one in a randomly-determined arena. I've gotten DM permission to seek out outside help, since it's all in good fun and the point is essentially to break our characters as much as humanly possible.

All rules for character building are as follows:
- Pathfinder rules only
- Max Level 15
- Beginning stats: 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18
- Any race
- Any alignment
- Any class combination
- 240,000 starting gp for equipment purchases
- No 3rd Party materials
- HP is maximum

Tournament rules are as follows:
- The arena will be determined by dice roll (There will likely be hazards depending on the environment)
- No holds barred. Characters determine the parameters of their combat in-game
- Combat continues until one champion dies or accepts defeat
- Any equipment, creatures, or weapons will be allowed
- Combat does not necessarily mean fighting. Admittance of defeat is all that is necessary for a win to be counted (NOTE: this means "domination" spells to make someone say "I surrender" are fair game!)

So far I've gotten as far as "I WANNA PLAY A DRUID WITH A BEAR (with an 18 in wisdom)" and that's about it--I'm at a loss as to where I should start for breaking said druid. Would choosing a race to max out my wisdom be most beneficial? Or should I make things more spread out? I've never actually made a character with the intent of breaking them before!

[M Placeholder]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "Help me break my pathfinder druid even further?"

If so, use a Spinosaurus instead of a bear as your animal companion.

[Jaguira]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "Help me break my pathfinder druid even further?"

If so, use a Spinosaurus instead of a bear as your animal companion.

Ehhhh, arguably, but they really toned down wild-shape in pathfinder compared to the glory it was in 3.5. Plus, like I said, I could really use the extra help. I know for a fact one of the folks I'll be facing is crazy good at optimizing characters.

[(Un)Inspired]

What classes are the other players bringing to the competition?

[Jaguira]

What classes are the other players bringing to the competition?

Not sure! No one has chosen to share.

[(Un)Inspired]

Not sure! No one has chosen to share.

Well I think your first step should be to do some surreptitious snooping.

Know thy enemy and all that junk. Do you know what sort of characters your optimizing opponent tends to make?

[Jaguira]

Well I think your first step should be to do some surreptitious snooping.

Know thy enemy and all that junk. Do you know what sort of characters your optimizing opponent tends to make?

He definitely tends towards martial characters. He's played a wizard once, tops.

[(Un)Inspired]

He definitely tends towards martial characters. He's played a wizard once, tops.

Excellent.

Well I'd suggest air walking above melee range, activating a karma bead and Control Winds-tornadoing any opposition.

[LooseCannoneer]

Using your wealth, purchase a Ring of Wish 2/day, requiring a command word, CL 20. It only costs 129,600 gp. If you can't win with two free wishes, you're doing something wrong.

[Jaguira]

Excellent.

Well I'd suggest air walking above melee range, activating a karma bead and Control Winds-tornadoing any opposition.

Oooooh, I like it!

[Jaguira]

Using your wealth, purchase a Ring of Wish 2/day, requiring a command word, CL 20. It only costs 129,600 gp. If you can't win with two free wishes, you're doing something wrong.

I'm definitely keeping that as a backup plan. Thanks!

[(Un)Inspired]

I'd also say get your initiative and UMD nice and high. High enough to hue tie you win every initiative and can activate any item on any roll but a 1.

Then carry a few scrolls of time stop to open up combat with so you can comfortably position yourself and activate you karma bead and such.

Spend any remaining time stopped rounds surrounding your opponent in summoned monsters if they look like they could survive a tornadoing.

[Jaguira]

I'd also say get your initiative and UMD nice and high. High enough to hue tie you win every initiative and can activate any item on any roll but a 1.

Then carry a few scrolls of time stop to open up combat with so you can comfortably position yourself and activate you karma bead and such.

Spend any remaining time stopped rounds surrounding your opponent in summoned monsters if they look like they could survive a tornadoing.

I am making notes on all of this. Thank you so much!

[CGNefarious]

Would you be allowed to take feats like Leadership or Sacred Geometry? If so, those might be worth looking into if you just want to dominate the field. I've never played a druid though, so I can't give you much specific advice.

[(Un)Inspired]

Would you be allowed to take feats like Leadership or Sacred Geometry? If so, those might be worth looking into if you just want to dominate the field. I've never played a druid though, so I can't give you much specific advice.

+1 for sacred geometry and leadership.

Make your cohort a wizard with a compsognathis (sic?) familiar, improved initiative, that trait that increases awareness and make them an ifrit with wildfire heart. They should have an initiative of 14+their dex. Make them a diviner so they can always act in a surprise round. Give them a scroll of timestop and let them get a few rounds of buffing you both every combat.

[meschlum]

If you're not too attachd to the bear and prefer to indulge in spellcasting, there is an interesting option.

Be a Nymph.

That puts you at CR 7 (7th level), with solid attribute boosts (Pathfinder is a bit vague on how that interacts with rolled or point buy attributes), and you have eight more levels to pick up.

Which gives you two options:

- 10 levels of Druid (because you get a bonus level at 10th level and another at 13th level), for the abilities of a Druid 10 and 17th level casting (including 9th level spells). You can use feats to advance your Animal Companion and Wildshaping to 14th level, but you're a caster so it isn't a priority. Remember your Bead of Karma to cast at 21st level if there is anything relevant.

- Templates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?352704-Templates-and-you) These add to your CR, so you can get +2 CR in templates (to level 9) and 8 levels of Druid (or prestige classes) and still be a 15th level caster.

If you focus on spellcasting, boosts to wisdom are hard to come by, but Nymphs benefit from Charisma too, so you could contemplate a Young Advanced Nightmare Penanggalen, for +6 Wis (+3 to DCs, bonus spells), +18 Dex and +14 Cha (+16 to AC (and another +8 Natural armor), +14 to Fort, +16 to Ref and +10 to Will saves), +7 hit points per hit die (from Cha), fast healing 5, a plethora of resistances and immunities, and some nice spell-likes. Though you won't get as much benefit from permanent domination as you might, since melee is happening.

An alternate option is to pick up Mutant instead of Advanced (+4 to Wis and Cha, -2 to Str and Int), for 3-4 mutations and 1-2 deformities. Pick up Radiation Affinity and pop an Atom Grenade (6,000 gold) to get Advanced for 24 hours. +10 Wis is even higher DCs and more spells, and add another +2 AC, +4 to Fort and Will saves (+2 to Reflex), then use your other mutations for telekinesis and charm monster at will (or +2 to Init and intermittent Haste, or flight, or...) (you're already immune to mind affecting from Penanggalen). The other benefit from popping an atom grenade is that anyone getting close to you is irradiated (you don't care) and if they et you work at range you can unleash your spells with impunity.

Fey Creature gives you a pile of defensive options and a few spell-likes, but it's not that great overall. If you can negotiate for a Young Advanced Half-Celestial (or Half-Fiend) being CR +2 (your Nymph base frame is 8HD, so technically +2 CR at that point) it could be worth it for the extra Wisdom.

If you picked up Nightmare creature, you could look at Veiled Illusionist, since the +4 to DCs for Shadow and Phantasm spells is quite tasty. It's a bit harder to get in (feats) and you need to pick good spells, but it can be worthwhile. Or if you don't want to be undead, you can go with Pathfinder Chronicler to get a few spells from any source. It costs a caster level, but you can afford to lose it (you have a margin of two, and one is dedicated to your templates). But that's more of a sorcerer route, in all.


Also, keep track of retraining options, as those can be nice too.

[Jaguira]

Would you be allowed to take feats like Leadership or Sacred Geometry? If so, those might be worth looking into if you just want to dominate the field. I've never played a druid though, so I can't give you much specific advice.

They're on the website and not 3rd party so I don't see why not! I've never done anything with either but they both look awesome.

[Jaguira]

If you're not too attachd to the bear and prefer to indulge in spellcasting, there is an interesting option.

Be a Nymph.

That puts you at CR 7 (7th level), with solid attribute boosts (Pathfinder is a bit vague on how that interacts with rolled or point buy attributes), and you have eight more levels to pick up.

Which gives you two options:

- 10 levels of Druid (because you get a bonus level at 10th level and another at 13th level), for the abilities of a Druid 10 and 17th level casting (including 9th level spells). You can use feats to advance your Animal Companion and Wildshaping to 14th level, but you're a caster so it isn't a priority. Remember your Bead of Karma to cast at 21st level if there is anything relevant.

- Templates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?352704-Templates-and-you) These add to your CR, so you can get +2 CR in templates (to level 9) and 8 levels of Druid (or prestige classes) and still be a 15th level caster.

If you focus on spellcasting, boosts to wisdom are hard to come by, but Nymphs benefit from Charisma too, so you could contemplate a Young Advanced Nightmare Penanggalen, for +6 Wis (+3 to DCs, bonus spells), +18 Dex and +14 Cha (+16 to AC (and another +8 Natural armor), +14 to Fort, +16 to Ref and +10 to Will saves), +7 hit points per hit die (from Cha), fast healing 5, a plethora of resistances and immunities, and some nice spell-likes. Though you won't get as much benefit from permanent domination as you might, since melee is happening.

An alternate option is to pick up Mutant instead of Advanced (+4 to Wis and Cha, -2 to Str and Int), for 3-4 mutations and 1-2 deformities. Pick up Radiation Affinity and pop an Atom Grenade (6,000 gold) to get Advanced for 24 hours. +10 Wis is even higher DCs and more spells, and add another +2 AC, +4 to Fort and Will saves (+2 to Reflex), then use your other mutations for telekinesis and charm monster at will (or +2 to Init and intermittent Haste, or flight, or...) (you're already immune to mind affecting from Penanggalen). The other benefit from popping an atom grenade is that anyone getting close to you is irradiated (you don't care) and if they et you work at range you can unleash your spells with impunity.

Fey Creature gives you a pile of defensive options and a few spell-likes, but it's not that great overall. If you can negotiate for a Young Advanced Half-Celestial (or Half-Fiend) being CR +2 (your Nymph base frame is 8HD, so technically +2 CR at that point) it could be worth it for the extra Wisdom.

If you picked up Nightmare creature, you could look at Veiled Illusionist, since the +4 to DCs for Shadow and Phantasm spells is quite tasty. It's a bit harder to get in (feats) and you need to pick good spells, but it can be worthwhile. Or if you don't want to be undead, you can go with Pathfinder Chronicler to get a few spells from any source. It costs a caster level, but you can afford to lose it (you have a margin of two, and one is dedicated to your templates). But that's more of a sorcerer route, in all.


Also, keep track of retraining options, as those can be nice too.

I'm not sure if a monster race will fly, but I love the idea!! Even if I can't play it here, I'm going to look into it for the future.

[Jaguira]

+1 for sacred geometry and leadership.

Make your cohort a wizard with a compsognathis (sic?) familiar, improved initiative, that trait that increases awareness and make them an ifrit with wildfire heart. They should have an initiative of 14+their dex. Make them a diviner so they can always act in a surprise round. Give them a scroll of timestop and let them get a few rounds of buffing you both every combat.

That sounds really cool. It'd certainly be nice to have a 13th level wizard on hand!

[Forrestfire]

On the note of Sacred Geometry, here's an solution (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17879295&postcount=110) for it. As long as you have 14 ranks in Engineering, then it allows you to freely apply the metamagics you've unlocked with it without increasing spell level (still limited by what you could cast, though. Not that it matters; the feat is probably the second-most powerful feat in PF).

[Jaguira]

On the note of Sacred Geometry, here's an solution (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17879295&postcount=110) for it. As long as you have 14 ranks in Engineering, then it allows you to freely apply the metamagics you've unlocked with it without increasing spell level (still limited by what you could cast, though. Not that it matters; the feat is probably the second-most powerful feat in PF).

What would you consider the most powerful feat?

[Snowbluff]

Leadership is stronger.

+1 Sacred Geometry.

If you optimize a Stegosaurus Strongjaw Pummeling Strike/Vital Strike Build, you can one shot your enemies.

[Jaguira]

Leadership is stronger.

+1 Sacred Geometry.

If you optimize a Stegosaurus Strongjaw Pummeling Strike/Vital Strike Build, you can one shot your enemies.

What do you suggest for a cohort? Currently I'm thinking Oread or Undine ranger to provide physical back-up, since I'm also considering dropping my animal companion to take the Weather domain.

[Snowbluff]

What do you suggest for a cohort? Currently I'm thinking Oread or Undine ranger to provide physical back-up, since I'm also considering dropping my animal companion to take the Weather domain.

If you're considering a ranger, skip it an grab a synthesist summoner or vivisectional alchemist instead.

[Jaguira]

If you're considering a ranger, skip it an grab a synthesist summoner or vivisectional alchemist instead.

Anything banned from Pathfinder's organized play campaign sounds like an excellent choice. Thanks!

[Snowbluff]

Anything banned from Pathfinder's organized play campaign sounds like an excellent choice. Thanks!

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrjuqys7kr1qgmd19.gif

Synthesist is technically weaker than regular summoner, but it doesn't stop it from being crazy good. For ranged fighting, get a bunch of arms for weapon. A dip into mysterious stranger would be good if you're interested in using guns.

Vivisectionist has Greater Invisibility as an option. Use it. :smalltongue:

[(Un)Inspired]

I still suggest an initiative optimized wizard with scrolls of timestop for a cohort. If you need physical might use Summon Natures Ally.

[Jaguira]

I still suggest an initiative optimized wizard with scrolls of timestop for a cohort. If you need physical might use Summon Natures Ally.

I'm unsure what I would do with time stop, since I can't harm anyone while the spell is going. Use it to buff? Summon creatures?

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm unsure what I would do with time stop, since I can't harm anyone while the spell is going. Use it to buff? Summon creatures?

Buff yourself with fly and haste, conjure walls of stone and iron (and prismatic walls) to trap you opponents, summon even more monsters, move into an optimal position, cast windwall so they can't shoot you with bows and crossbows, scroll cast disjunction on all their magic items.

I can think of more stuff just give me a sec.

Basically make them trapped, magically useless, surrounded by monsters, and in a position to tear them apart before they even get to act.

[Jaguira]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrjuqys7kr1qgmd19.gif

Synthesist is technically weaker than regular summoner, but it doesn't stop it from being crazy good. For ranged fighting, get a bunch of arms for weapon. A dip into mysterious stranger would be good if you're interested in using guns.

Vivisectionist has Greater Invisibility as an option. Use it. :smalltongue:

I don't think I can make the Vivisectionist to work... My druid's NG alignment is what's giving me the leadership score boost to allow me a companion of the maximum possible level (reputation for "fairness and generosity"), and I don't think a vivisectionist would fly with someone good-aligned. It's definitely a good suggestion, though!

[Jaguira]

Buff yourself with fly and haste, conjure walls of stone and iron (and prismatic walls) to trap you opponents, summon even more monsters, move into an optimal position, cast windwall so they can't shoot you with bows and crossbows, scroll cast disjunction on all their magic items.

I can think of more stuff just give me a sec.

Please do! I get the point but never mind more suggestions :smalltongue:

[(Un)Inspired]

Please do! I get the point but never mind more suggestions :smalltongue:

Okay, so far you're flying above them, none of their magic items work, they're in a lidless box made from walls of stone, and there's as many summoned monsters in the box with them as you and your wizard had actions left in your Time Stops (I suggest you both optimize initiative and carry scrolls of time stop so you can get as much set up before they get a turn as possible.)

You could cast cloud kill, stinking cloud, and acid fog into the box. ( but these might hurt your monsters) you could put a wall of lava in there with them. If you want to skill the box you can hit them with reverse gravity (though this limits which summons will be effective against them). Then many be cast anti life shell on yourself in case they get out.

[Snowbluff]

You should make sure to Anchor them, too. Just in case they try to escape.

[(Un)Inspired]

You should make sure to Anchor them, too. Just in case they try to escape.

Yeah good call. Then hit them with waves of exhaustion in case they try to climb out of the box.

Remember with leadership, your money, and UMD you can essentially cast any spells off any list you want.

[Spore]

My druid's NG alignment is what's giving me the leadership score boost to allow me a companion of the maximum possible level (reputation for "fairness and generosity"), and I don't think a vivisectionist would fly with someone good-aligned.

You can refluff everything tbh. I'll switch from standard Alchemist to Vivisectionist in order to use Blade of Mercy with Sneak Attacks (providing precise incisions that make an enemy unresponsive). You can always refluff Awaken and Anthropomorphic Animal as not being torturous.

[emeraldstreak]

You can refluff everything tbh. I'll switch from standard Alchemist to Vivisectionist in order to use Blade of Mercy with Sneak Attacks (providing precise incisions that make an enemy unresponsive). You can always refluff Awaken and Anthropomorphic Animal as not being torturous.


Sorry, optimizing Druid isn't the primary question before you. The primary question is how to win arena under the set of rules subjecting you.

[Jaguira]

Hey all! Thanks so much for your help. Here's what I have of my druid so far:
https://heavens-labyrinth.obsidianportal.com/characters/agetha-tremton

I haven't quite finished filling out her cohort, but the start of him is here:
https://heavens-labyrinth.obsidianportal.com/characters/xavier-werg

[CGNefarious]

5'3 is a very unoptimized height.

I feel like you can find a better feat then toughness. With Pathfinder you win by taking out your enemy before he can even touch you. At this level I don't think that 15 extra HP is going to be much help. I feel similarly about heavy armor proficiency. IMO you should exchange both of those for sacred geometry and give yourself 14 ranks in Kn: Engineering.

Also, did you use wealth by level to buy items? I feel like you should have a lot more at level 15 than what is on your sheet.



I'd also look at the counterspell rules if you're looking at doing that with Greater Dispel Magic. I found them to be less than accommodating. Overall your spells look pretty good, but I've never played a druid so I'm not the best judge. Here's a quick overview of druid spells if you haven't seen it yet and are interested in checking it out.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TUvw-QOBsvCBeMcpUGDlo-0BKsFuEHynDQhgX8HmzKo/edit

[Jaguira]

5'3 is a very unoptimized height.

I feel like you can find a better feat then toughness. With Pathfinder you win by taking out your enemy before he can even touch you. At this level I don't think that 15 extra HP is going to be much help. I feel similarly about heavy armor proficiency. IMO you should exchange both of those for sacred geometry and give yourself 14 ranks in Kn: Engineering.

Also, did you use wealth by level to buy items? I feel like you should have a lot more at level 15 than what is on your sheet.



I'd also look at the counterspell rules if you're looking at doing that with Greater Dispel Magic. I found them to be less than accommodating. Overall your spells look pretty good, but I've never played a druid so I'm not the best judge. Here's a quick overview of druid spells if you haven't seen it yet and are interested in checking it out.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TUvw-QOBsvCBeMcpUGDlo-0BKsFuEHynDQhgX8HmzKo/edit

I didn't know heights could be optimized...

I've thought about Sacred Geometry but since the game will have something of a time limit (in general, not per round--we're all busy folks and only have one night to play) I opted to forgo it just for the sake of making everyone's lives easier.

As for wealth per level, yeah, that's what we used. I also gave some items to the cohort so he wouldn't be left completely in the dust.

I'll check out counterspell rules and the link you shared. Thanks for your help!

[CGNefarious]

If you have 14 ranks in Kn: Engineering sacred geometry always works. No math needed. There's a thread somewhere around here showing the math.

I might be mistaken, but I believe your cohort gets his own wealth by level.

And I was joking about the height.

[Jaguira]

If you have 14 ranks in Kn: Engineering sacred geometry always works. No math needed. There's a thread somewhere around here showing the math.

I might be mistaken, but I believe your cohort gets his own wealth by level.

And I was joking about the height.
Was it this thread, by chance? If so I will definitely take another look at it.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17879295&postcount=110

They do! But since they're NPCs it's much lower than player characters. He only got 21,000gp, alas.

Haha okay, I wasn't sure! I thought it might have to do with some spells making 5 feet of liquids in a contained area (like acid pit), and maybe if you fell into those you'd be more likely to drown or something... Clearly I was over-thinking it :smalltongue: