The Dashing Hero Handbook - Use Your Overwhelming Personality As A Weapon

[Eno Remnant]

The Dashing Hero Handbook
By Eno Remnant

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/37199/645765-layfon_super.jpg
With the Dashing Hero Handbook, you too can have a constant wind ruffling your hair and outfit.
And generally just making you look more awesome than the rest of the party.

Charisma. It has to be one of the easiest ability scores to optimise, and can be applied to just about anything if you know what you’re doing. It’s the ability score of the greatest heroes and villains, who possess that special dramatic flair, the panache and audacity to do what other adventurers might consider impossible. The realm of Charisma is home to some of the greatest classes known to Dungeons and Dragons: Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer and many more.

And with a great power like this just waiting to be tapped, I decided it was time to bust open the keg of Charisma and unleash its bounty upon the masses. This, my friends, is not just the Dashing Hero Handbook—it is the Charisma Handbook. Enjoy using the force of your personality to destroy your enemies.



Increasing Charisma

All the usual techniques apply here: magic items, tomes, Wishing for Charisma, etc. In addition, the prestige class Risen Martyr (BoED), if you can handle the rather strict pre-requisites (which include martyrdom), grants an increase to Charisma at 1st and 5th level (it also makes you Deathless , which pretty much means you won’t have to worry about Constitution or fatigue—the second being something of a problem in Bard builds for reasons that will become evident later in this handbook, the first being an excuse to put more points in Charisma). Heartwarder (FoP) provides a similar increase at each odd-numbered level.

Charisma-boosting races include: Lesser Aasimar (+2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom, Daylight 1/day as an SLA, a few energy resistances and darkvision and yet it’s still LA 0. Planetouched races are unbalanced in all the right ways), Star Elf (+2 Charisma, -2 Constitution), Lesser Cansin (+2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma. Another neat Planetouched), Lesser Celadrin (+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution. If the Lesser theme didn’t give it away, Planetouched), Spirit Hellbred (+2 Charisma, -2 Constitution) and Spellscale (-2 Constitution, +2 Charisma).

Templates that will increase your Charisma include Magic-Blooded (+2 Charisma, -2 Wisdom. Comes with a few situationally helpful SLAs), Half-Nymph and Unseelie Fey (+2 Charisma, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution. A chance to get wings and blindsense at LA 0? It’d be perfect if you didn’t have to be Evil to become one; in case you hadn’t noticed, most of my experience with Charisma is Good-aligned).


[B]Saving Throws

This is where most people assume optimising Charisma will take them. Completely understandable, since it’s one of the things Charisma does best. Two levels of Paladin (PHB. Though there are UA variants for different alignments. Including a Chaotic Good one that gives you immunity to compulsions and doesn’t clash with Bard or Battle Dancer [addressed below] alignment restrictions. Wink wink nudge nudge) will grant you Charisma to saves, as will the Nymph race (LA +7, probably wouldn’t recommend it if that’s all you’re there for) and the Witch Hunter prestige class, just to name some more popular options. Many people will attempt to find ways to apply Charisma to saves twice over, which in my personal opinion is wasteful and stupid. If you've optimised your Charisma effectively (you should easily—and I do mean easily—be able to muster 30 Charisma by level 20), you won’t be failing any saves except those thrown at you by over-optimised cheesy caster demigods.


Armour Class

After saves, this is the most common melee character application of Charisma. There are a number of options here, but my personal favourites are the one level of Battle Dancer (Untyped bonus, must be Chaotic and unarmoured [you’re optimising Charisma, why are you wearing armour?]) and/or one level of Risen Martyr (Deflection bonus, must be Good). There are other ways if you don’t want to invest a level or want to avoid a multiclassing penalty, such as the feat Divine Shield (Requires Turn Undead), but they are generally more costly and temporary.


Attack and Damage

*Cracks knuckles*

Alright, this is it. This is some of the best work I’ve ever done with Charisma. Using the tricks I’m about to list, you can dump Strength and be no worse off for it (excludes carry weight, class features and skills, naturally), even on a melee-heavy character. The Slippers of Battledancing will, if you wield a one-handed weapon and your offhand is empty, replace your Strength/Dexterity bonus to attack/damage with Charisma after moving ten feet (as a move action, so you either need to break action economy or you're only getting one attack out of it). A lot of people might argue that this is all too specific, but if you’re a Charisma-focused melee character you’re probably a skirmisher—secondary melee, not meant to stay still. In addition, it grants +5 to Tumble, +10 land speed and +2 to your initiative if you have five or more ranks in Perform, all of which will assist you in the whole “move ten feet every turn” thing. Sure, you won’t be making full-attacks without breaking action economy, but again, secondary melee (and there are ways of picking up extra move actions).

Now, Charisma to attack and damage is fun. But doing it twice over is even more fun. If you have Bardic Music (honestly, a melee Bard thrives on everything I’ve described thus far in this section, and most of that which is to come), you can take Snowflake Wardance, a feat which adds your Charisma to your attack for a number of turns equal to your ranks in Perform (Dance), and fatigues you at the end (must wield a slashing weapon and have a free hand. Bards are casters, I can’t see why this would be a problem). For double damage, add the Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, which add your Charisma to your attacks as fire damage.

And then we come to skill that allowed me to be competitive with my D&D group, which includes two of the most ridiculous optimisers I’ve ever had the privilege and horror to see at work. And yes, I did say skill, as in that thing you put skill points into. Oriental Adventures, while being 3.0 material, introduces the skill known as Iaijutsu Focus. This skill allows you to add damage to a melee attack based on your IF check and your ability to draw your blade immediately before attacking (Quick Draw is obviously important to this skill). While this is a fun, Charisma-based skill, its use is kinda limited; even with the best optimisation, it can only add 9d6 to damage.

But that’s what Iaijutsu Master (OA. Gotta be Lawful, which hurts if you want Battle Dancer for AC (or to be a Bard), but remember that Battle Dancer has no penalty for changing alignments. There is no entry for “ex-Battle Dancers”) is for. At 5th level, this prestige class allows you to add your Charisma bonus as additional damage to each extra damage die you gain from an Iaijustu Focus check. Every single one. If you had a +15 mod for Charisma, that’s an extra 9d6+135 damage to one attack. And while that class largely keys off you using a katana, nothing in that particular class feature requires one, so feel free to pick up a greatsword, have a friendly Wizard teleport you into an enemy’s face, use Quick Draw to unsheathe the deadly arc of steel and death you call a sword as a free action, and then absolutely wreck that enemy. It gets even better if you hit epic levels, because you can take a feat called Improved Iaijutsu Focus (Web 3.0), which uncaps Iaijutsu Focus. That’s god-slaying territory, as if you couldn’t do that before level 21 with IF.

A Paladin’s Smite Evil is pretty much the only other big source of attack from Charisma (well, that and Perform [weapon drill], but I’ve never used that before and I personally wouldn’t invest the skill points unless I had some left over that I couldn’t apply to other, more essential skills—like those covered below in the Skills section). Don’t try Ordained Champion, it’s a trap and that’s how well-meaning Clerics have been horribly crippled in the past.


Initiative

Iaijutsu Master adds your Charisma bonus to your initiative, which is nothing to sneeze at. Again, 3.0 material, up to DM’s discretion. Though if you read the relevant class feature entirely by RAW, you also add your Charisma bonus to your Dexterity bonus. Which is not something a sane DM will allow, but really it’s the writer’s fault for wording their class features so poorly.


Metamagic

Charisma is the true casting ability. None of the others can compare to it. “How can he have the audacity to say that?” you might be asking, and that’s a fair question. While I’ll admit that part of it is up to my preference for spontaneous casters over prepared (honestly, preparing the spell slots on something with the effective casting ability of an Archivist 16/Wizard 16 [yeah, I did this. Never again] is a nightmare that I do not recommend to any but the most dedicated of optimisers), but the main reason is metamagic. Charisma is home to the cheesiest metamagic tricks known to D&D players (also, Sorcerers can get away with saying “I can cast spells because I was born so fabulous that magic just came to me.” Easily the best reason ever for calling it the true casting ability :smalltongue:).

There are two feats to which I refer in particular: Metamagic Song and Divine Metamagic. The second one should be familiar to anyone who’s spent time in the D&D community—burn turning attempts to apply metamagic to spells without level increase. Since turning attempts are based on your Charisma bonus, you can see why it has a place in this handbook. Metamagic Song, on the other hand, is what you might expect. Similar to Divine Metamagic, you expend Bardic Music to apply metamagic to spells (spontaneous casting only, but not limited to the spells gained from your Bard levels) without level increase. A particularly skilled optimiser (only including myself incidentally; I’m not skilled, I just know the trick) can apply both while remaining completely SAD and losing very little on the caster level front.


Skills

Improving Charisma skills is fairly simple. Outside of the usual skill improvements (like Skill Focus and actually putting ranks into the skill), bluff gives you synergy bonuses in a lot of other Charisma-based skills, a Circlet of Persuasion gives you +3 to the same, and the feat Nymph’s Kiss gives you +2 in the same area as well as more skill points. You really can’t go wrong with any of these.

As noted earlier in the handbook, Perform (dance) is important for extending the duration of Snowflake Wardance. It also applies to the PrC Dervish, which if applied correctly can make you almost unstoppable. Iaijutsu Focus is on a similar level of value to a character, for reasons that take up half of the Attack/Damage section.

Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate are the most infamous of the Charisma-based skills. UMD basically lets you cast any spell in existence in exchange for the gold needed for the relevant magic item. Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate can let you rule the entire universe by RAW. Naturally, no sane DM allows the latter and keeps a careful eye on the prior, but all of these skills have their place and value in a Dashing Hero.

Perform (sing) can be employed at early levels to make your party love you—you need to be a Bard for this trick, but that’s a given. Allow me to paint you a picture: you stroll into a forest clearing full of bloodthirsty bandits, seemingly alone and unarmed. This type of thug likes to gloat and torment their victims, and generally isn’t on guard for an attack if you’re not brandishing a weapon at them.

That’s when you start singing. The Bard’s Fascinate ability (and I have looked extensively into the rules on fascination to make sure this works) will allow you to turn the entire band into dull-minded fools who can’t do anything other than stare at you. Even if your DM rules that they’re in a potential combat situation, that just gives them a +4 to their Will save. Which won’t be an issue, since your DC is a Perform check. And as is the general rule, skill checks > saves.

So now you have a camp of bandits unable to do anything but admire your glory. Your party has sufficient time to set up for a crushing assault from all sides. The rogue can sneak attack at least one of them before the others snap back to attentiveness, but since the others aren’t in a situation of direct, immediate danger, they should only get a new save (DM ruling, basically. They tend to err on the less fun side of this one), and you’re still making them save against a skill check. Good luck to them. Then the Wizard can blast them all with a Fireball and the Fighter can charge in to chop the bandit leader’s head off and it’s a slaughter.

Make this trick even better by obtaining a Harmonizing Quarterstaff at some point in your adventures. Harmonizing is a +1 bonus enchantment that sustains Bardic Music for a number of turns equal to your Charisma mod after you stop concentrating on it, so you can hold onto it longer. And depending on which version you use (there are two, each with different but largely equal benefits. I know at least one is in the Forgotten Realms setting), you can get a +6 to Perform (sing). Absolutely worth the cost.

The final two Charisma-based skills are Disguise and Handle Animal. Both go largely unnoticed by most players, but can have their uses. Especially Handle Animal, which—if you go about it right—can give you a small army of trained animals willing to serve as your mount, packmule or surprise cavalry attack.

Of non-Charisma-based skills, Tumble is probably the most important if you’re a skirmisher type character. I always try to gain max ranks in this whenever I build a character because of how incredibly useful it is.


Gold and Reputation

One Perform check is all you need to become famous throughout the Prime Material Plane, as well as renowned in some parts of different planes. And performing at the local tavern during the party’s downtime is a handy little way to pull some extra gold together to go towards that shiny new magic item you want.


In Conclusion

In my D&D circle, it’s a common joke to refer to me as the Bard or Paladin of the group. And whenever I build one or the other (or multiclass as both), everyone sees it as typical Eno.

What is less often mentioned—and never joked about—is how I can successfully kill most of their characters with a single attack if I choose to do so. And this is a group of some of the scariest optimisers I’ve ever seen. One even tried to come up with a hard counter to my infamous Iaijutsu Masters and failed. If you need any reason to set value in this handbook, that should be all you need. All I know how to even vaguely optimise is Charisma and—to a much lesser extent—Wisdom. And yet I can make these optimisers complain that their builds can’t win against mine (disclaimer: they have builds that can beat mine, but those are so cheesy we never take them out of theorycraft. We’re talking Pun-Pun territory here).

The Dashing Hero is a staple of Dungeons and Dragons. The mental picture most players have when they think about the game is one of those stunning sourcebook covers where the adventurers are fighting a dragon or battling their way through a dungeon. The Paladin is one of the most common classes played by new players, who want to play the shining knight who defeats evil. The Sorcerer is the most common caster for new players who can’t be bothered to get their heads around spell preparation and like the idea of gaining magic by inheriting the blood of draconic ancestors. It’s an archetype that many aspire to, and for good reason.

Hopefully, this handbook provide advice that will give your characters that edge they may have otherwise been lacking, or allow you to forge great heroes who will shine like a beacon that pushes back the darkness of your enemies.



Credit goes to Magery for suggesting I include the Heartwarden and Witch Hunter.

Disclaimer: The image used in this guide is not my own. Credit to the artist, when I figure out who that is.

Disclaimer: The X Stat to Y Bonus thread is a much better source than this handbook. It's just not as flashy and descriptive. If you're looking for more obscure Charisma optimisation, go there.

[Deophaun]

The Slippers of Battledancing will, if you wield a one-handed weapon and your offhand is empty, replace your Strength/Dexterity bonus to attack/damage with Charisma after moving ten feet...
...as part of a move action.

Which is why the slippers are highly overrated.

[Eno Remnant]

...as part of a move action.

Which is why the slippers are highly overrated.

This is a limiting factor, yes. But on a character whose focus is largely on Charisma, that one attack can probably do more damage than a full-attack is likely to.

Whether they're overrated or not is for someone else to decide, since I haven't seen a lot of discussion about them before so I couldn't tell you how highly other people rate them. All I can say is that I've used them to great effect in the past.

[Magery]

...as part of a move action.

Which is why the slippers are highly overrated.

Are they overrated normally? Sure.

Are they overrated in the context of this handbook?

Not really.

Combine Iaijutsu Focus with a Charge (take one level of Lion Totem Barbarian, get Pounce, if you want to take this to ridiculous levels) and the Valorous enchantment on your character's weapon.

It's really rather nice to have those slippers then =P

I know that a specific build or specific trick does not a brilliant item make - but in the context of Eno's handbook, the Slippers of Battledancing work for precisely what he's suggesting them for.

Adding your CHA (because this is a CHA handbook, mind you) to your attack and damage.

EDIT:

Plus, it's not like that extra move action is that hard to come by, if you really try - Hustle (multiclass into Wilder, incidentally geting your CHA to Touch AC (though it's capped to your actual AC; but hey, you have Inertial Armour!), learn Hustle via Expanded Knowledge) exists, and you can probably get an item of it (or a Dorje, at any rate).

Plus, if you're being a Paladin/Crusader (or Bard/Crusader, even) and going into things like Ruby Knight Vindicator, you have all your standard-action maneuvers (and if you have the sufficient Tumble that Eno recommends, battlefield movement is pretty easy) to use when you don't feel the need to full attack.

There's also the Belt of Battle (which, if you're a melee character, you should have by default).

Oh - and the boots stack with Snowflake Wardance, which gives you your CHA to your attack rolls twice over (and twice over to damage if you have the Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, though that's fire damage, so it doesn't always apply).

[Deophaun]

Are they overrated normally? Sure.

Are they overrated in the context of this handbook?

Not really.

Combine Iaijutsu Focus with a Charge (take one level of Lion Totem Barbarian, get Pounce, if you want to take this to ridiculous levels) and the Valorous enchantment on your character's weapon.

It's really rather nice to have those slippers then =P
And where are you getting your move action from before you use your full round action to charge?

Edit:

Plus, it's not like that extra move action is that hard to come by, if you really try
If you're "really" trying, it is hard to come by.

[Magery]

And where are you getting your move action from before you use your full round action to charge?

Edit:

If you're "really" trying, it is hard to come by.

Er... the slippers require you to move 10ft before they activate, I'm fairly sure. They don't say "you must spend a move action to move 10ft". (Or if they do, I've never seen it mentioned anywhere).

The minimum distance for a charge is 10ft.

So charging automatically activates the slippers.

EDIT:

No, I am wrong. They actually do require a move action.

However, that still doesn't deny standard-action maneuvers, nor picking up the extra move actions from things like Hustle and the Belt of Battle.

EDIT 2:

Eno has reminded me about Travel Devotion.

I cannot believe I forgot that.

EDIT 3:

Except Travel Devotion doesn't work RAW because the Slippers of Battledancing specify a move action, not a swift action.

[Mr.Kraken]

I'm planning on a CE bard//cleric of gluttony* character and I'm looking for ways to make the cleric's casting based on Charisma. Are there any? Like, some kind of obscure, reverse Serenity feat or something?

*Dragon #323

[Deophaun]

However, that still doesn't deny standard-action maneuvers, nor picking up the extra move actions from things like Hustle and the Belt of Battle.
It doesn't, but standard-action maneuvers are not going to compete with a Pouncing Charge DFI Bardblade that has 7 natural attacks to play with. And your Belt of Battle gives you only three charges a day. Hustle does get it for you, but I will admit I don't know psionic classes enough to really comment on it.

But your confusion is exactly why I made the statement I made: people seem to operate under the assumption that the slippers work as long as you just move 10 feet, and they miss the part about needing a move action. And that happened in the OP, because why else was Tumble mentioned?

[Magery]

It doesn't, but standard-action maneuvers are not going to compete with a Pouncing Charge DFI Bardblade that has 7 natural attacks to play with. And your Belt of Battle gives you only three charges a day. Hustle does get it for you, but I will admit I don't know psionic classes enough to really comment on it.

But your confusion is exactly why I made the statement I made: people seem to operate under the assumption that the slippers work as long as you just move 10 feet, and they miss the part about needing a move action. And that happened in the OP, because why else was Tumble mentioned?

Wouldn't Tumble be a part of actually being able to get that 10ft movement as a move action on the battlefield?

It lets you move past enemy squares--or through them--without provoking AoO, which thus lets you actually make that move action without being whacked in the face.

(The Hustle trick isn't the most optimised; you need a few levels of Wilder in order to get the power. That, or take one level of Psychic Warrior and use a Dorje, but there are some annoying rules around Dorjes (they take a standard action or longer to activate, but given they're basically psionic wands, and wands were updated in the Rules Compendium to take an action as long as the spell they're emulating, so you shouldn't have too hard a time convincing a DM that your Dorje should follow the same rules.

The Belt of Battle has three charges a day, indeed; but, considering the damage you're looking at if you're built to model the Dragoon/Hood, that's one big enemy dead an encounter for three encounters of your choosing, and then you can spend the rest of your time just having Charisma once to attack and damage, if you followed the Handbook's guidelines, which is still pretty good, since those bonuses all stack with whatever else you have already.

I can't say much about the Pouncing Charge DFI Bardblade, apart from understanding that it would be ridiculously powerful (because DFI, and Pounce, and multiple natural attacks), but if you don't want to build something that can kill basically anything in one turn--because I can't imagine many DMs being particularly pleased with that outside of deliberately high-power games--then we come back to building something that still works, just on a more restrained level)

[Deophaun]

Wouldn't Tumble be a part of actually being able to get that 10ft movement as a move action on the battlefield?
By the time you can afford the slippers, a DC 25 Tumble check should be easy-peasy (especially as there's a relatively inexpensive item in the MIC that lets you take 10 on Tumble checks even when threatened). It's more for the DC 40 check to take a 10' step in place of a 5'.

Also, with the belt of battle, you're probably still better off burning charges for a standard or full than just to activate your slippers.

You are right that that particular DFI bard can be overpowered. However, it has the benefit of scaling for power level. You don't need all 7 NAs, you don't need Words of Creation. You can add or subtract from it as you wish. The slippers, meanwhile, basically require you to routinely break the action economy in order to use them consistently. And if you aren't using them consistently, then what's the point of spending 34k on them? That's money better spent elsewhere.

[Magery]

Also, with the belt of battle, you're probably still better off burning charges for a standard or full than just to activate your slippers.

The belt of battle point really depends on how well the character is built for charging as opposed to how much damage they do on a full attack (or what else they can whip out on a standard action, if they're a caster); if they have Pounce and the Valorous enchantment, they're probably doing more on *swift to activate BoB* + *move to activate SoB* + *full-round to charge* than *full attack* + *swift to activate BoB* + *full attack*, especially since they can repeat the former three times a day.


You are right that that particular DFI bard can be overpowered. However, it has the benefit of scaling for power level. You don't need all 7 NAs, you don't need Words of Creation. You can add or subtract from it as you wish. The slippers, meanwhile, basically require you to routinely break the action economy in order to use them consistently. And if you aren't using them consistently, then what's the point of spending 34k on them? That's money better spent elsewhere.

If you're scaling the DFI bard down to be less powerful, how is that different from just choosing to play the maneuver-focused SoB-using build? There's no point saying that it's more powerful, then saying you could scale it down for power levels; you could just as easily play the DFI bard for the higher power level game, and then play the maneuver-focused SoB build in a more ordinary game.

And the slippers don't necessarily require you to break the action economy - there's the maneuver-focused build I've mention both above and a few other times.

You can make great use of them if you break the action economy, yes (with the Hustle builds, or by making a pseudo-dragoon and using the Belt of Battle) - but you don't need to.

I'm not going to argue the cost point if you're not using them consistently, no - it'd be stupid to spend that 34k just for something you use a few times per day.

But you can also combine builds; you have the charger, but that doesn't so much require class levels as it does feats, so you take levels in Crusader, or Warblade, or even Swordsage. That way, you can charge (Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper and all that jazz) for ridiculous damage a few times a day, and the rest of the time, you're using your move to tumble, and your standard to use a maneuver. That way, you're using them all the time.

I should repeat something I've already said: I'm not trying to argue that the slippers are good. They're not, on their own at any rate - you can tell that from the amount of specifics you have to throw into a build that uses them to make that build work.

But that's the key point - that build does work. And it's under the purview of the Handbook (which is adding Charisma to as many things as possible at a time).

[Deophaun]

But that's the key point - that build does work.
And it works without the slippers. There is no Charisma-based build that falls apart if you don't have the SoB, and no build where that 34k cannot be spent more effectively, even if it's just on a Ring of Protection +5.

If you have fun with it, by all means. But it's not optimal.

[Magery]

And it works without the slippers. There is no Charisma-based build that falls apart if you don't have the SoB, and no build where that 34k cannot be spent more effectively, even if it's just on a Ring of Protection +5.

If you have fun with it, by all means. But it's not optimal.

How does it work without the slippers?

They grant you CHA to attack rolls and CHA to damage rolls - even if you take Snowflake Wardance (which, incidentally, stacks with the slippers) and the Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows, you've only got CHA to attack once, which, while stacking with your STR or DEX, prevents you from reducing as much MAD as possible, since you then need to invest in a decent DEX or STR score (sure, taking a level of Swordsage, stick in Child of Shadow and using Shadow Blade gets your DEX to damage as well, but that stacks with the slippers so why not do both anyway), and CHA to damage once, except it's fire damage, not raw damage, so if something's resistant or immune to fire, it takes less damage, or no damage at all.

If you're running with the slippers, though, you get your CHA to attack and damage twice over.

You're never going to miss the enemy's AC unless you roll a 1, then (or, you're going to be the only person in the party who can hit their AC), because you'll be running something like BAB + 2*CHA mod (i.e. +16 to +20) + STR/DEX + (misc. bonuses) as your highest to-hit.

You're also dealing 8 to 10 more damage with every attack (nothing to sneeze at, even from an item that costs 34k - plus the other bonuses it gives) - or 16 to 20 more damage on a charge if you have Valorous. Damage that isn't resisted by the most common immunity ever.

I don't see how that's not nescessary to make the build work (or to make it optimised, since CHA to attack and damage twice over. That, plus two levels of Paladin, a level of Battle Dancer, and you also have CHA to AC and saves, and thus you're virtually unkillable unless the DM is explicitly trying, in which case you need to go into far, far more optimised builds than anything you'd be allowed to play at the table in the first place).

[Deophaun]

How does it work without the slippers?
Because spending 16k on +4 belt of ogre strength so you can qualify for Power Attack and Improved Bulrush, and then use heroics for Shock Trooper still beats the 34K slippers. Heck, if you go by the A&E guide, you can almost buy Power Attack and Improved Bulrush and the gloves for that cost.

And if you aren't boosting your Dex anyway because SAD apparently means leaving bonuses on the table, well, I don't know what to tell you.

Anyway, you seem to be doing a lot of arguing in an effort to disprove that the slippers are not "highly overrated" while simultaneously claiming that you are "not trying to argue that the slippers are good." So, I really don't know what the heck is going on here.

[Magery]

Because spending 16k on +4 belt of ogre strength so you can qualify for Power Attack and Improved Bulrush, and then use heroics for Shock Trooper still beats the 34K slippers. Heck, if you go by the A&E guide, you can almost buy Power Attack and Improved Bulrush and the gloves for that cost.

And if you aren't boosting your Dex anyway because SAD apparently means leaving bonuses on the table, well, I don't know what to tell you.

Anyway, you seem to be doing a lot of arguing in an effort to disprove that the slippers are not "highly overrated" while simultaneously claiming that you are "not trying to argue that the slippers are good." So, I really don't know what the heck is going on here.

Except you can spend that 16k as well, and them combine them? Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper (thus including Improved Bullrush) are feats I've already mentioned taking in the build that uses the Slippers of Battledancing for charging and for combining with maneuvers. I mean, sure, you'd need to actually make it 24k to make it in a non-belt slot so you could use the Belt of Battle, but that's something you have to do in most cases if you want the Belt of Battle anyway.

I don't see how that beats the slippers when the whole point of the builds I've been talking about is to combine all those things. Yes, you take those feats - because they work even better with the slippers than if you didn't have them.

Of course you're boosting DEX. But the entire point of Eno's handbook is to make a character as CHA-sad as possible. So you're going to be boosting CHA more (maybe at 20th level you have 22-24 DEX, while you're running around with 34-40 CHA; there's a significant difference between the two, and, as I also mentioned, you can get Shadow Blade as well to get more damage based off that DEX, which stacks with everyone else I've mentioned).

And you seem to misunderstand my argument. What I'm saying is that the slippers have a valid place in a CHA-based handbook. You don't seem to believe me, so I'm providing examples of applications they do have.

Would I ever use them on a character who didn't pump CHA into the stratosphere and was intentionally designed to make use them the way Eno suggests?

No.

But that doesn't mean they can't be used ever, at all, in any sort of CHA-based optimisation - which is what you seem to be saying.

[Deophaun]

And you seem to misunderstand my argument. What I'm saying is that the slippers have a valid place in a CHA-based handbook. You don't seem to believe me, so I'm providing examples of applications they do have.
I said they were highly overrated. Because they need a move action to activate. Which the OP didn't include. Which you were under the wrong impression they didn't.

So, I'm going to ask again: What is this about?

[kardar233]

The Slippers could be well used with a PsyWar dip for Hustle, as it explicitly grants a move action, as opposed to Travel Devotion, which simply allows you to move your speed.

[ranagrande]

Dashing villains can be quite effective too. I'm a fan of Paladin of Tyranny or Paladin of Slaughter/Hexblade/Blackguard to get charisma to saves three times.

[Magery]

I said they were highly overrated. Because they need a move action to activate. Which the OP didn't include. Which you were under the wrong impression they didn't.

So, I'm going to ask again: What is this about?

Oh, I know I was under the wrong impression. I literally said "No. I am wrong. They actually do require a move action."

The thing is, the argument evolved from there, when I started pointing out ways you could get around the limitation of that move action (including what kadar has mentioned, about the Psychic Warrior and Hustle), and you started saying that, even if you did, it still didn't compare with other builds (or that it involved extreme abuse of the action economy). It went on from there.

You can't--after having participated in an argument that's gone over multiple posts and into multiple different topics that you have responded to--then suddenly ask what we're arguing about. The argument has moved on from the original premise, and I wasn't the only one who took it there.

Nobody's at fault here - arguing isn't even a bad thing, it promotes discussion and the dissemination of information, and allows for people (like me, and the move-action part of the Slippers of Battledancing) to readjust their positions based on new information.

[Deophaun]

You can't--after having participated in an argument that's gone over multiple posts and into multiple different topics that you have responded to--then suddenly ask what we're arguing about. The argument has moved on from the original premise, and I wasn't the only one who took it there.
No. I'm asking what you are arguing about. Because so far it has had nothing to do with anything I've said. I've stated that they are overrated, and you seem to agree, but then go and find ways to throw good money after bad in order to make them work... on occasion. And of course, you never bother to look at what else that gold could be spent on, or what else you could be doing with your bolstered action-economy. Opportunity cost doesn't seem to be in your vocabulary, which means it's pointless trying to argue with you.

That's why I'm keeping these responses short and sweet.

Anyway, to your point that I seem to not think the slippers should be in a post about Charisma: no. They give a Charisma-based bonus, so of course they should be mentioned.

In a footnote.

In small type.

Because they aren't good.

Sirine's grace, inner beauty, and ruin delver's fortune deserve much more attention.

[DMVerdandi]

I'm planning on a CE bard//cleric of gluttony* character and I'm looking for ways to make the cleric's casting based on Charisma. Are there any? Like, some kind of obscure, reverse Serenity feat or something?

*Dragon #323

Dynamic Priest [Dragonlance:Legend of the twins]

Cleric is probably one of the best classes to use this feat with. It allows your spell casting in this case to work off the same ability as Turning/rebuking.

EDIT
Also, being in a Gestalt game, unless you are definitely tied to the bard class, A suggestion could be swapping bard out for Marshal. It is truly the king of passive classes, netting you an aura that you can switch on the fly which adds charisma to various bonuses.
Ignore if music is part of the theme of the build, but if you just wanted super charismatic, The marshal is probably better.
You can also get draconic auras from a feat, then two at the same time.

So if you continue with marshal, you can have four auras running at the same time.

[Thurbane]

Tainted Raver is a great boost to CHA (+6), but not for PCs, sadly (LA -). Great for villains/NPCs: +0 CR template that gives fast healing, perma rage and +6 to CHA.

[Mr.Kraken]

Dynamic Priest [Dragonlance:Legend of the twins]

Cleric is probably one of the best classes to use this feat with. It allows your spell casting in this case to work off the same ability as Turning/rebuking.

EDIT
Also, being in a Gestalt game, unless you are definitely tied to the bard class, A suggestion could be swapping bard out for Marshal. It is truly the king of passive classes, netting you an aura that you can switch on the fly which adds charisma to various bonuses.
Ignore if music is part of the theme of the build, but if you just wanted super charismatic, The marshal is probably better.
You can also get draconic auras from a feat, then two at the same time.

So if you continue with marshal, you can have four auras running at the same time.

That feat doesn't affect the DC of spells, sadly. :smallfrown:
While Marshal is definetly a good option, it wouldn't mesh with the character's fluff. He is supposed to be a self-centered, self-loving, hedonistic, Dorian Gray-style prick.

[JW86]

Thank you, Eno.

I feel moved to roll some kind of dashing Bardic Swordsman now.

I am not familiar with Bard, Battle Dancer, Iajutsu Master so it would be one hell of a learning curve. I wonder if some Swashbuckler or Warblade would go in there too? Oh, now I'm confused.

[ILM]

That’s when you start singing. The Bard’s Fascinate ability (and I have looked extensively into the rules on fascination to make sure this works) will allow you to turn the entire band into dull-minded fools who can’t do anything other than stare at you. Even if your DM rules that they’re in a potential combat situation, that just gives them a +4 to their Will save. Which won’t be an issue, since your DC is a Perform check. And as is the general rule, skill checks > saves.

So now you have a camp of bandits unable to do anything but admire your glory. Your party has sufficient time to set up for a crushing assault from all sides. The rogue can sneak attack at least one of them before the others snap back to attentiveness, but since the others aren’t in a situation of direct, immediate danger, they should only get a new save (DM ruling, basically. They tend to err on the less fun side of this one), and you’re still making them save against a skill check. Good luck to them. Then the Wizard can blast them all with a Fireball and the Fighter can charge in to chop the bandit leader’s head off and it’s a slaughter.
Got to disagree with some of that.
a) "The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working." Arguably, if their intention is to mug and murder you, you might count as "other dangers". I'm pretty sure that if I were about to leave someone for dead in the forest and he whipped out a guitar, I'd be on guard.
b) "Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect." I'm on board with your party using the time to get into flanking position, but getting close enough to stab them should at least count as a potential threat, and your rogue murdering one of them should definitely count as an obvious threat.


Generally speaking, while 2xCha to attack and damage, and Cha to saves and AC is wonderfully SAD and very good if that's what you're going for, it's not the insane machine of destruction you make it out to be. You still have a lower damage output than a competent power attacker and while you get Cha to AC, you do give up armor which just means your armor is going to be twice as expensive as everybody else's (bracers of armor or cloak of battle or whatever). Iaijutsu Master is the one thing that gets your damage to impressive levels, but it's a rather setting-specific, 3.0 class so I expect it won't fly in many cases.

Risen Martyr is a low-BAB exalted PrC that requires you to die a martyr and whose capstone is to take your character away from the table, so I wouldn't really consider it a viable strategy (note the text: "A risen martyr cannot advance in any class other than risen martyr in order to delay his final ascension.").

And really, the only thing they need to counter you is Celerity, or Contingency if you get smart (which, tragically, is true of basically any melee build).

[Deophaun]

...and while you get Cha to AC, you do give up armor which just means your armor is going to be twice as expensive as everybody else's (bracers of armor or cloak of battle or whatever).
This is incorrect.

A SAD Cha build is going to easily pull a +12 modifier to Cha, possibly more. This is one shy of +5 Mithral Fullplate. Furthermore, you don't have a Max Dex Bonus to worry about, and as such a Cha build shouldn't ignore Dex. A +5 or +6 Dex modifier is probably the lowest when all is said and done, which puts you +2-3 over the Fullplate.

Now we're dealing with the lack of a shield. But so is our Power Attacking friend. No matter, let's assume we're comparing this to a Sword and Board type. Our Dex bonus over the Fullplate gives us the equivalent of a non-magical Heavy Shield. We can then have the party cleric cast magic vestment on our clothes for +5. We now have the max AC you can get from armor and Dex without using a tower shield, and we haven't spent a dime.

We can buy bracers of armor. The bonus costs the same as the equivalent enhancement bonus for armor. So, a +3 bracers of armor is the same as the first +3 of that mithral fullplate. You then magic vestment the rest, because +8 is the max all told.

If you have a Wis modifier of +3 or higher, which again, not that hard to get, a Monk's belt is cheaper than the equivalent +4 enhancement for armor, and it's AC your mithral-clad friend can't use.

So, without trying too hard, we got +7 AC over a typical armor-reliant sword-and-board friend, and only 22,000 gp of the cost went explicitly to boosting AC, as opposed to also boosting stats that we were going to boost anyway. Yes, there are a few things that can narrow the gap, such as a tower shield and dastana, but it won't close it completely and it requires even more resources thrown to defense. Beyond that, we have access to the same AC boosting tricks from here on out. Oh, except that we can apply Cha to AC again if we really want to.

[LoyalPaladin]

The realm of Charisma is home to some of the greatest classes known to Dungeons and Dragons: Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer and many more.
Guess who found his new favorite playgrounder?

I am actually a big fan of this post. Cha is easily my favorite stat. I just wish I could make Beguiler run off it. Then I could play a Beguiler/Warmage Ultimate magus...

Paladin edit:
While I'm making a wishlist, I would also like a reverse Serenity feat.

[ILM]

This is incorrect.

A SAD Cha build is going to easily pull a +12 modifier to Cha, possibly more. This is one shy of +5 Mithral Fullplate. Furthermore, you don't have a Max Dex Bonus to worry about, and as such a Cha build shouldn't ignore Dex. A +5 or +6 Dex modifier is probably the lowest when all is said and done, which puts you +2-3 over the Fullplate.

Now we're dealing with the lack of a shield. But so is our Power Attacking friend. No matter, let's assume we're comparing this to a Sword and Board type. Our Dex bonus over the Fullplate gives us the equivalent of a non-magical Heavy Shield. We can then have the party cleric cast magic vestment on our clothes for +5. We now have the max AC you can get from armor and Dex without using a tower shield, and we haven't spent a dime.

We can buy bracers of armor. The bonus costs the same as the equivalent enhancement bonus for armor. So, a +3 bracers of armor is the same as the first +3 of that mithral fullplate. You then magic vestment the rest, because +8 is the max all told.

If you have a Wis modifier of +3 or higher, which again, not that hard to get, a Monk's belt is cheaper than the equivalent +4 enhancement for armor, and it's AC your mithral-clad friend can't use.

So, without trying too hard, we got +7 AC over a typical armor-reliant sword-and-board friend, and only 22,000 gp of the cost went explicitly to boosting AC, as opposed to also boosting stats that we were going to boost anyway. Yes, there are a few things that can narrow the gap, such as a tower shield and dastana, but it won't close it completely and it requires even more resources thrown to defense. Beyond that, we have access to the same AC boosting tricks from here on out. Oh, except that we can apply Cha to AC again if we really want to.
Eh. With a +12 to Cha, the highest Dex you're likely to have is +8 (at level 20), including a +4 tome and a +6 item. So +20 all told, and all it cost you is over 300,000 gp (+5 and +4 books, and two +6 items). Meanwhile, mithril full plate guy (with his trusty buckler) is stuck at +12, sure, but for a grand total of 10,500 gp - call it 46,500 if he started with 10 dex and had to grab gloves to get that +3. In fairness, he's probably also blowing about 170k on his main stat. So basically, your +8 AC starting advantage is costing you 100k gp and a point-buy disadvantage.

Let's start enchanting. Let's assume is Magic Vestment happy hour like you did. He's up +10, you're up +5 - the difference is now +3 in your favour - except he's got twice the slots for interesting armor enchantments, and a 100k gp head start. Sure, you can increase your AC even more, but you'll be even more in the hole and honestly, there's a point where AC doesn't matter all that much because monsters get stupid high attack bonuses (the average SRD monster attack bonus at CR20 is +40).

I mean, I'm not saying Cha to AC is crap - but I maintain that it is a pretty expensive tradeoff.

[Deophaun]

Eh. With a +12 to Cha, the highest Dex you're likely to have is +8 (at level 20), including a +4 tome and a +6 item. So +20 all told, and all it cost you is over 300,000 gp (+5 and +4 books, and two +6 items).
Which is stuff you were buying anyway. Seriously, I've rarely seen Level 20 characters without that, regardless of what armor they're wearing. It's only a question of which primary and secondary (often tertiary as well) stat you're putting a tome on. So it's neither here nor there.

And yeah, you have an extra +5 for interesting armor enhancements, of which there are few. Soulfire is pretty much the only thing somewhat required. That's +4.

Sure, you can increase your AC even more, but you'll be even more in the hole and honestly, there's a point where AC doesn't matter all that much because monsters get stupid high attack bonuses (the average SRD monster attack bonus at CR20 is +40).
And? Considering it's not that difficult to get above AC 50 by 20 on a Cha build (I've got a CHA-based character now that can pull 40 AC at level 10), possibly 60 if you play your cards right, and most of the creatures have Power Attack, I'm not seeing why a +40 to hit before they start sacrificing attack for damage is something worrying. The fact that you think it's "stupid high" tells me quite a lot.

[Twilightwyrm]

I feel it would be reminisce not to mention the Dragon Devotee Prestige Class here, as it is extremely easy to get into, and a 1 level dip grants +2 to Charisma (on top of +1 to natural armor, +3/4 BAB, +2 Fort, and 4+ skill points per level). For charisma focused characters, this is invaluable for anyone except full casters, to whom it is merely a decentish option to consider.

[ILM]

Which is stuff you were buying anyway. Seriously, I've rarely seen Level 20 characters without that, regardless of what armor they're wearing. It's only a question of which primary and secondary (often tertiary as well) stat you're putting a tome on. So it's neither here nor there.
Yeah, it is, because if you're blowing over 300 k on books alone, you're really poorly optimizing your WBL - especially if you're a beatstick. You're getting a +2 or +3 to a few things, awesome - but for half your wealth?


And? Considering it's not that difficult to get above AC 50 by 20 on a Cha build (I've got a CHA-based character now that can pull 40 AC at level 10), possibly 60 if you play your cards right, and most of the creatures have Power Attack, I'm not seeing why a +40 to hit before they start sacrificing attack for damage is something worrying. The fact that you think it's "stupid high" tells me quite a lot.
Ok first, take a chill pill and drop the implied insults. Second, +40 is basically auto-hit on any build that's not at least partially focused on AC optimization. Let's see your AC 50 Cha build and what it's actually costing you in terms of class levels, feats and WBL, and generally in terms of actually doing something besides having a 50% chance of not being hit.

Again, I'm not saying SAD Cha builds don't work, I'm saying they have a high opportunity cost. In that sense, this isn't a handbook (i.e. a toolbox) so much as a single build whose parts aren't all that useful if you don't put them all together.

[Deophaun]

Yeah, it is, because if you're blowing over 300 k on books alone, you're really poorly optimizing your WBL - especially if you're a beatstick. You're getting a +2 or +3 to a few things, awesome - but for half your wealth?
At level 20, you're at the point where you've long ago taken the low hanging fruit.

And it's not half WBL. And a +4 and a +5 tome don't cost 300k.

Ok first, take a chill pill and drop the implied insults. Second, +40 is basically auto-hit on any build that's not at least partially focused on AC optimization. Let's see your AC 50 Cha build and what it's actually costing you in terms of class levels, feats and WBL, and generally in terms of actually doing something besides having a 50% chance of not being hit.
It's a DWK DFI Bardblade, dipping paladin and battledancer, with a few more levels of bard than normal for level 3 spells, and dishes out around 400 DPR while giving 11d6 elemental damage to everyone else, plus, being a bard, has excellent out of combat capability. Unlike your beatstick which apparently can't find value in a second tome. Sure, it doesn't get level 9 maneuvers, but it doesn't need them.

And by using alter self to turn into a shadow dragon wyrmling, this one breaks 60 (10+8 Armor+13 Cha+8 Dex+2 size+12 NA+5 Deflection+5 Defending).

That's another thing: fullplate doesn't do well on a tiny creature, and armor in general really dislikes effects that alter your basic bodily structure.

[HyperDunkBarkly]

but leyfon had maybe....8 cha at best.

[ILM]

And it's not half WBL. And a +4 and a +5 tome don't cost 300k.

It's a DWK DFI Bardblade, dipping paladin and battledancer, with a few more levels of bard than normal for level 3 spells, and dishes out around 400 DPR while giving 11d6 elemental damage to everyone else, plus, being a bard, has excellent out of combat capability. Unlike your beatstick which apparently can't find value in a second tome. Sure, it doesn't get level 9 maneuvers, but it doesn't need them.

And by using alter self to turn into a shadow dragon wyrmling, this one breaks 60 (10+8 Armor+13 Cha+8 Dex+2 size+12 NA+5 Deflection+5 Defending).
+4 tome: 110 k; +5 tome: 137.5 k; +6 items for each :72 k.

So you're an exalted character who routinely alters self into a chaotic evil dragon - interesting. Now, me, I tend to dislike Alter Self tricks because the polymorph line is so completely broken; otherwise just Polymorph or Shapechange into some monstrosity and call it a day. To each their own.

You started with 18 in Cha, small size and +2 racial bonus (and there are no LA 0 races fitting that bill here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1078216), so I have to assume LA, cheesy template, Dragon Mag or 3rd party), put all your points from leveling in there, slapped on a +5 book and a +6 item. And then you got another +4 or +5 tome and +6 item for dex. Then you blew another 100 k on a ring and amulet, 64 k on bracers of armor, and a +1 on your weapon (which I'm sure you have interesting ways to wield as a tiny-sized dragon). You've secured some way of getting a GMW CL20 cast on you (or god forbid, actually bought a +5 weapon), which means either even more money or relying on outside help (in which case let me introduce you to my rainbow servant incantatrix friend with persistent spell). At this point you've spent a bare minimum of 491.5 k of your alotted 760 k.

So with the help of a friend, a dip into a class which I bet nobody knows off the top of their head what their 2nd level class ability is, some pre-fight buffing, and around 200 k gp dedicated to increasing your AC (as opposed to the stuff you'd normally do like tomes and items and GMW, which I grant you), it is "not that difficult to get above AC 50". I see what you mean.

[ranagrande]

It is true that is not that difficult to get an AC of 50 though.

It's possible to get AC above 90 without any items or buffing spells.