High-level casters and low slots

[Chronos]

In 3.5, spells scaled with caster level, and so there were always a few low-level spells that scaled well enough to give you something to do with those spell slots. Now, though, if a spell scales at all, it does so by using a higher-level slot. But that leaves you with a bunch of low-level slots. Now, sorcerers can convert those slots to sorcery points, and warlocks don't have low-level slots, but what do wizards, clerics, druids, and bards do with their low slots that makes them at all worthwhile?

[RulesJD]

In 3.5, spells scaled with caster level, and so there were always a few low-level spells that scaled well enough to give you something to do with those spell slots. Now, though, if a spell scales at all, it does so by using a higher-level slot. But that leaves you with a bunch of low-level slots. Now, sorcerers can convert those slots to sorcery points, and warlocks don't have low-level slots, but what do wizards, clerics, druids, and bards do with their low slots that makes them at all worthwhile?

Cast spells that maintain their usefulness without the need to scale in number of targets or damage.

Shield, Mage Armor, Protection from Good/Evil, Feather Fall, Blindness, Hold Person, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Phantasmal Force, Rope Trick, Suggestion, Blink

Just a few spells that remain exceptionally useful regardless of spell caster level.

[Ashrym]

A lot of spells scale by DC as well. We don't need scaling DC's plus scaling damage plus more spells plus whatever else. There are plenty of spells that are still useful in low level slots at higher levels; some of them are better at higher levels because of the lower DC's at lower levels.

[hymer]

Speaking for druids, there are spells you can get mileage out of virtually your whole career. Entangle, Faerie Fire, Goodberry and Longstrider are ways to use your first level spells, e.g. Moon druids can also use spell slots to heal their wild shape.


A lot of spells scale by DC as well.

Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? Or are your referring to how all save DCs from the same caster are the same, and so scale with their casting stat advancement?

[Ashrym]

Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? Or are your referring to how all save DCs from the same caster are the same, and so scale with their casting stat advancement?

I'm referring to proficiency bonus, specifically. Faerie fire is a good example because advantage is useful at any level, but at first level the DC is 10 plus spell casting ability modifier but at at level 17 it's 14 plus spell casting ability modifier. Increasing the spell casting ability score compounds that type of scaling as ASI's are added but it was proficiency bonus to which I was referring. With both, a DC 13 faerie fire at first level is not as effective as a DC 19 faerie fire at 17th level simply using the same first level slot. Any spell with a DC scales with levels due to proficiency bonus in the DC calculation.

[Balor777]

In 3.5, spells scaled with caster level, and so there were always a few low-level spells that scaled well enough to give you something to do with those spell slots. Now, though, if a spell scales at all, it does so by using a higher-level slot. But that leaves you with a bunch of low-level slots. Now, sorcerers can convert those slots to sorcery points, and warlocks don't have low-level slots, but what do wizards, clerics, druids, and bards do with their low slots that makes them at all worthwhile?

Yeah its something youll have to pay if you dont play sorc or if you dont dip 3 levels in sorc.
The only guy i feel pitty about is the wizard tho.All others have tools to deal with this.
But i like sorc too much to play wizard anyway.

[Eslin]

Yeah its something youll have to pay if you dont play sorc or if you dont dip 3 levels in sorc.
The only guy i feel pitty about is the wizard tho.All others have tools to deal with this.
But i like sorc too much to play wizard anyway.

Wizard has plenty of ways. You use the lower spell slots up casting things like shield and misty step, and unlike sorcerers they get great spell lists, more spells prepared, switching out and better subclasses so you don't have to pity them =P

[Balor777]

Wizard has plenty of ways. You use the lower spell slots up casting things like shield and misty step, and unlike sorcerers they get great spell lists, more spells prepared, switching out and better subclasses so you don't have to pity them =P

Yeah its not bad but i was about to play a caster some time ago (now im DM) and looked at the wizard vs sorc at a target level 13(first 7th level spell).At that level the wiz can
take a short rest(if possible) and regain 13/2 round up -> another 6th level spell or a conbination of 7 value spells.I was like "thats nice 2 6th level spells!"(6th level slot max from the ability)
But then i checked the sorc.The sorc can burn 4x2(1st level) and 3x3(2nd level) to get 17 point +13 he has due to 13 level total 30 points."Wait i said.Thats a lot of points"
I looked at the point cost/flexible casting table:
1st 2 points
2nd 3 points
3rd 5 points
4th 6 points
5th 7 points
This guy can get 5x level 4(5x6=30) slots or 4x(4x7=28) level 5 slots and still have a 2nd level slot available.
I was like wow, why the hell everyone says sorc is bad?I must be doing something wrong.Yes this guy cannot create higher than 5th level.
But at that 13 level he can toss an 8d8 blight 8 rounds in a row and still having two 5th ,one 6th and one 7th level spells available.
Then checked again twinned spell.Cost is 1 point per spell level to make double spell.
"Wait now" he has more spells than the wizard guy,.... not only he can create higher than 5th level spell but also cast 2 of them at the same round.
6th level twinned Disintegrate
7th level twinned finger of death
8th level twin dominate monster/twin power word stun.What about twinned 8th level blight for 2x12d8?
9th level 8hour twinned dominate monster.
Also spending only 1 point for a twinned cantrip+CHA its 2x 3d10+CHA damage.Every 1st level slot can create 2 of these cantrips.Ands the story goes on.
Thats why i believe 5 level sorc dip in all casters is better from the pure 20 .Because you still have 7/8th level spells and you can do nifty nifty stuff with the sorc powers.
Also 1hp per level isnt bad either.

I came to the conclusion Wizard pays too much for this bigger spellist.Sorc is the powerhouse of this edition.

[Eslin]

Yeah its not bad but i was about to play a caster some time ago (now im DM) and looked at the wizard vs sorc at a target level 13(first 7th level spell).At that level the wiz can
take a short rest(if possible) and regain 13/2 round up -> another 6th level spell or a conbination of 7 value spells.I was like "thats nice 2 6th level spells!"(6th level slot max from the ability)
But then i checked the sorc.The sorc can burn 4x2(1st level) and 3x3(2nd level) to get 17 point +13 he has due to 13 level total 30 points."Wait i said.Thats a lot of points"
I looked at the point cost/flexible casting table:
1st 2 points
2nd 3 points
3rd 5 points
4th 6 points
5th 7 points
This guy can get 5x level 4(5x6=30) slots or 4x(4x7=28) level 5 slots and still have a 2nd level slot available.
I was like wow, why the hell everyone says sorc is bad?I must be doing something wrong.Yes this guy cannot create higher than 5th level.
But at that 13 level he can toss an 8d8 blight 8 rounds in a row and still having two 5th ,one 6th and one 7th level spells available.
Then checked again twinned spell.Cost is 1 point per spell level to make double spell.
"Wait now" he has more spells than the wizard guy,.... not only he can create higher than 5th level spell but also cast 2 of them at the same round.
6th level twinned Disintegrate
7th level twinned finger of death
8th level twin dominate monster/twin power word stun.What about twinned 8th level blight for 2x12d8?
9th level 8hour twinned dominate monster.
Also spending only 1 point for a twinned cantrip+CHA its 2x 3d10+CHA damage.Every 1st level slot can create 2 of these cantrips.Ands the story goes on.
Thats why i believe 5 level sorc dip in all casters is better from the pure 20 .Because you still have 7/8th level spells and you can do nifty nifty stuff with the sorc powers.
Also 1hp per level isnt bad either.

I came to the conclusion Wizard pays too much for this bigger spellist.Sorc is the powerhouse of this edition.

Regarding why do people say sorcerers are bad - they say it because of both subclasses being kind of sub-par and the serious lack of versatility. Sorcerers have more spells per day, but knowing 15 spells total when wizards can prepare 25 a day and know hundreds is a pretty huge weakness.

The flexibility of converting (somewhat inefficiently) spell slots into different slots is fun, but keep in mind low level spells are useful - by burning them on a few mid level spells, you're sacrificing spells like shield and mirror image which keep you alive.

[Giant2005]

You could just use the spell points variant from the DMG, then spell slot levels are meaningless.

[Eslin]

You could just use the spell points variant from the DMG, then spell slot levels are meaningless.

Hm. Just looked it up, it seems to me that it would turn paladin/bard into an absolute murder machine. Level 20 build time, since they're so very practical!

Variant human, oath of vengeance paladin 12/lore bard 8
str 15
dex 8
con 16 +2 +2
int 8
wis 8
cha 16 +2 +2
polearm master, warcaster
bard spells: shillelagh, fireball
Huge HP, +5 to all saves, if you haste yourself 4 attacks of 4d8+whatever, since you have enough points to haste and burn a 2d8 smite every attack unless there are an unreasonable amount of fights. And you have a reliable high power AOE, unlike most melee.

[Balor777]

Regarding why do people say sorcerers are bad - they say it because of both subclasses being kind of sub-par and the serious lack of versatility. Sorcerers have more spells per day, but knowing 15 spells total when wizards can prepare 25 a day and know hundreds is a pretty huge weakness.

Yes fore someone that likes to do tricks with magic Sorcerrer is not flexible.Not at all.For someone who likes to do
damage/controll/buff Sorc viaries from "better" to "i do what 2 wizards can do in the same round."

The flexibility of converting (somewhat inefficiently) spell slots into different slots is fun, but keep in mind low level spells are useful - by burning them on a few mid level spells, you're sacrificing spells like shield and mirror image which keep you alive.
Sorc has permanent mage armor and most of the time killing faster is better from protecting your self.
And the wizard his self will use that low level spells only if he has no spells left at higher levels.After 3 fights the sorcerrer/fighter/barbarian/ranger/rogue/monk/warlock will continue to deliver steady damage per round killing people and the wizard will cast mirror image :P
I agree that converting mmpoints into twin spells rather than spell slots is better tho.

On a 5 character party Wizard is super nice but i really cant find good use for him in a smaller group.
In a 4 man group id say one of the sorcerrer/fighter/barbarian/ranger/rogue/monk/warlock/cleric is better as the 4th character, even if you allready have one of this
classes in the group..
A wizard after casting 5-8 spells depending on level become more and more dead weight.
A challege 4 monster averages ~70 hp.Four of them (280 hp total) is a medium encounter for a 4 people lvl 10 party.
At 10 level you have slots:
3x 3rd level lets say fireball. If all fireballs hit 3 out of 4 targets and none of the targets succeds a saving throw 252 damage.No 3rd level slots left
3x 4th level spells.Ill use fire ball again because its better since it does AoE and ill count again 3 out of 4 enemies hit none make the reflex ->283 damage total and no 4th level spells
left.
and 2x 5th level slots.Here ill use cone of cold for variety: ((8d8/2)*3)*2 again 216 damage total and bam no 5th level slots.Total damage 750.
This if all you use its AoE,you allways hit 3 targets and no target succeds a reflex.

You see Wizards damage killed 2 medium encounters worth of hp in the most ideal calculations.If course we dont want him to kill alone 2 medium encounters but if you take into account
5 medium encounters are around 1400 hp and you wont allways be able to hit 3/4 with aoe and some enemies will take half damage from the reflex saving throws, wizard is better
hidden in the woods than in the fight. after the 3rd fight.
A sorc at the same 10th level can throw another good 5x 3rd level fireballs or cast 2x 4th level fireballs and 3x 3rd level fireballs dealing a good 440 damage more for 1200damage total
before he is out of spells, and im not even counting how better is at difficult/deadly encounters with twin haste/blight/dominate person or quickened spells with another 1-2-3-4d10+CHA cantrip damage.

Im not trying to prove you wrong but sorc at least at my eyes is much better because he does what this game needs better.And thats killing - controlling -buffing your teamstes.
Ok you miss that "rope trick quick rest" but i can live with that if i can do alone the damage the whole rest of the team does at will.And i could do better with another bard/cleric/druid/lock in the team instead of a wizard

[Chronos]

Sorcerers might have an edge over wizards in combat, but they don't have much to contribute out of combat. Wizards can probably cast more out-of-combat spells even with fewer slots, thanks to all their rituals, and they've got some great utility and downtime spells.

RulesJD, I notice that most of the spells you list seem to be wizard spells (and what's so great about Rope Trick, anyway?). But what about the other classes?

[Balor777]

Sorcerers might have an edge over wizards in combat, but they don't have much to contribute out of combat. Wizards can probably cast more out-of-combat spells even with fewer slots, thanks to all their rituals, and they've got some great utility and downtime spells.

Yes but you dont buy a car because it has super comfordable seats and a good Radio cd dont you? :)
Thats why i wrote wiz is good at trick and stuff.

RulesJD, I notice that most of the spells you list seem to be wizard spells (and what's so great about Rope Trick, anyway?I rest werever and whenever i like :)). But what about the other classes?
Im not sure what you mean about the other classes.What would you like to disquss?

[HoarsHalberd]

About the car comparison, no, but you might buy a van because you need the storage space or a minibus because you need the seats. Wizards are a van, they don't go insanely fast but they're fast enough and have more than enough utility to justify getting it. Now if your campaigns are 90% combat, you'd be best served with a sorcerer, two barbarians and a life cleric. But the vast majority of campaigns aren't and require the diverse set of skills brought by one of the less combat oriented roles (thief rogue, wizard or lore bard.)

[Eslin]

Im not sure what you mean about the other classes.What would you like to disquss?

Actually in this instance you do buy the car. D&D isn't just killing things in the face, and wizards have their own neat tricks in that regard anyway - out of combat wizard has a huge versatility advantage, a larger spell list/more prepared/free rituals means they bring far more to the party than a sorcerer does.

[Chronos]

Heck, even if you're just counting in-combat spell slots, the wizard can effectively get as many of those as he wants, at a cost of 200 GP each and some downtime, once he reaches 5th level and can cast Glyph of Warding.

[SharkForce]

wizards have massively more impressive class abilities in general, and while the sorcerer *can* convert sorcery points into spell slots to get more spells per day, it's pretty much a desperation move.

there are basically 2 things that sorcerers have going for them over wizards. one is con save proficiency. the other is that metamagic is bloody amazing.

if you convert all your sorcery points to spells, all you have left is con save proficiency... and it isn't *that* good, especially in a game that uses feats (which is most that I've ever heard of).

wizards have a massively superior spell list, the ability to quickly change spells on a daily basis, the ability to potentially learn all the spells on their spell list (or more practically, most of the spells that they are interested in), free use of ritual spells (which they don't even need to prepare), eventually unlimited use 1 each of level 1 and 2 spells which also add to their spells known if desired (pro-tip: level 20 wizards will most likely know *27* spells at a time) (note: this doesn't sound that impressive until you consider that it can mean at-will shield and mirror image, both of which are powerful defensive buffs that don't require concentration, just as one example), the ability to recharge spells on a short rest, and some really amazing wizard archetype abilities.

wizards are not hurting. it is not hard to find a use for them, or for their low-level spells, in a party. they are powerful and versatile as is. about the only drawback they have is that they're int-based, and even that can be leveraged into something useful since it's likely nobody else in the party will be picking up those int-based skills.

[Balor777]

Guys about more spells prepared,
you realise its 11 vs 15 spells prepared at level 10 and 20 vs 25 at level 20 right.
Thats the list with rituals:
Alarm 1st
Comprehend Languages 1st
Detect Magic 1st
Find Familiar 1st
Identify 1st
Illusory Script 1st
Tenser's Floating Disk 1st
Unseen Servant 1st
Gentle Repose 2nd
Magic Mouth 2nd
Feign Death 3rd
Leomund's Tiny Hut 3rd
Phantom Steed 3rd
Water Breathing 3rd
Contact Other Plane 5th
Rary's Telepathic Bond 5th
Drawmij's Instant Summons 6th

And thats what spells wizard can know over Sorc.(Sorc has some 6 spells over wizard too.)
http://postimg.org/image/vsc22dtef/
Thats it.Now try to see how many of this spell sorc doesnt have you would have prepared lets say at 10th level.
Im still trying to find whats the very good subclass tha wizard has too.They are good but nothing so special.

Do the above rituals,
5 spells more prepared per day more( at the spells at the pic above that wizard has)
and 10 level slot value recharge once per day(max level 6th level) at 20th level make up for:
-permanent mage armor,
-Permanent fly at 14 level without concentration.Burn people from above without the fear to loose the consetration and fall like a sack. Or what about fly + greater invisibility?
-1 hp per level makind the D6 hit die D8.
-More spells per day(If you like to talk about high levels at 20 lvl sorc will have 70 points burning 1/2/3/4 level slots to create 10x 5th level spells or for 58 points cast all 9th, 8th, 7th and 6th level spells twined and create 2x 6 level spells with the remaning 12 points.You see not only he cast 2 times the value of 6/7/8/9 lvl spells but they are casted at the same round.
-Cha mod to everything you cast using your element including 1 point cost for 2x 2d10 cantrips at level 5(Thats 32 dpr at 1 point cost at level 5)
-CON saving throw.
-Elemental resistance of your dragon type without the need to be dragonborn.(Fire resistance? yay!)
-And the other metamagic powers of course making you THE bomber/controller/buffer.Also + 3 to DC in not bad either and you will have 22 spell save DC. "Wait!...DONT KILL THAT KRAKEN(Challenge 23), we're gonna need it."

I dont know guys.I believe ALL classes are good at this edition.But if we had to divide the classes to powerfull and ok, wizard would be at the ok list.
At the end...Hell give sorc 2 levels of Paladin dip and you will have smites... a lot of them(2 smites for 1st lvl slot burned) 20AC , duelist style etc etc(You need warcaster tho)

I dont want to push my opinion inside your minds really btw. :)

[Eslin]

Guys about more spells prepared,
you realise its 11 vs 15 spells prepared at level 10 and 20 vs 25 at level 20 guys right.
Thats the list with rituals:
Alarm 1st
Comprehend Languages 1st
Detect Magic 1st
Find Familiar 1st
Identify 1st
Illusory Script 1st
Tenser's Floating Disk 1st
Unseen Servant 1st
Gentle Repose 2nd
Magic Mouth 2nd
Feign Death 3rd
Leomund's Tiny Hut 3rd
Phantom Steed 3rd
Water Breathing 3rd
Contact Other Plane 5th
Rary's Telepathic Bond 5th
Drawmij's Instant Summons 6th

And thats what spells wizard can know over Sorc.(Sorc has some 6 spells over wizard too.)
http://postimg.org/image/vsc22dtef/
Thats it.Now try to see how many of this spell sorc doesnt have you would have prepared lets say at 10th level.
Im still trying to find whats the very good subclass tha wizard has too.They are good but nothing so special.

Do the above rituals,
5 spells more prepared per day more( at the spells at the pic above that wizard has)
and 10 level slot value recharge once per day(max level 6th level) at 20th level make up for:
-permanent mage armor,
-Permanent fly at 14 level without concentration.Burn people from above without the fear to loose the consetration and fall like a sack. Or what about fly + greater invisibility?
-1 hp per level makind the D6 hit die D8.
-More spells per day(If you like to talk about high levels at 20 lvl sorc will have 70 points burning 1/2/3/4 level slots to create 10x 5th level spells or for 58 points cast all 9th, 8th, 7th and 6th level spells twined and create 2x 6 level spells with the remaning 12 points.You see not only he cast 2 times the value of 6/7/8/9 lvl spells but they are casted at the same round.
-Cha mod to everything you cast using your element including 1 point cost for 2x 2d10 cantrips at level 5(Thats 32 dpr at 1 point cost at level 5)
-CON saving throw.
-Elemental resistance of your dragon type without the need to be dragonborn.(Fire resistance? yay!)
-And the other metamagic powers of course making you THE bomber/controller/buffer.

I dont know guys.I believe ALL classes are good at this edition.But if we had to divide the classes to powerfull and ok, wizard would be at the ok list.
At the end...Hell give sorc 2 levels of Paladin dip and you will have smites... a lot of them(2 smites for 1st lvl slot burned) 20AC , duelist style etc etc(You need warcaster tho)

I dont want to push my opinion inside your minds really btw. :)

Uh... ok? It's not just that, it's the massive difference in utility. Not sure where you're getting 20 spells known from when they clearly have 15, but the ability to switch out spells is huge. If a wizard wants to teleport his party to a different continent he prepares teleport that day, if the sorcerer wants to do it he has to give up one of his very limited spells known.

[Balor777]

Uh... ok? It's not just that, it's the massive difference in utility. Not sure where you're getting 20 spells known from when they clearly have 15, but the ability to switch out spells is huge. If a wizard wants to teleport his party to a different continent he prepares teleport that day, if the sorcerer wants to do it he has to give up one of his very limited spells known.
Yes but you will have teleport learned anyway right?Both of them loose a spell and sorc has more.
Yes sry i miss typed the "20" and the 20 level.Its 15.The difference of 5 spells prepared is at level 14 or 15 if i remember correct.
Dont forget(i forgot it too) that sorc can "forget" spells, practicaly erasing most of the low levels spells to learn new when he levels up,
so the more spells known feature of the wizard is again "so-so".

[Eslin]

Yes sry i miss typed the "20" and the 20 level.Its 15.The difference of 5 spells prepared is at level 14 or 15 if i remember correct.
Dont forget(i forgot it too) that sorc can "forget" spells, practicaly erasing most of the low levels spells to learn new when he levels up,
so the more spells known feature of the wizard is again "so-so".

...it really isn't. The sorcerer has teleport known, so now on days when you don't need it the sorcerer has 14 spells prepared and the wizard has 27+rituals. The wizard has access to a far larger variety of spells and has a great deal more prepared each day and can change which are prepared each day - these all stack up to make the wizard ridiculously more versatile than the sorcerer.

I'm not forgetting that they can switch spells out upon levelling up, but compared to switching them out on a daily basis? Come on man, not even close.

[DireSickFish]

Yes sry i miss typed the "20" and the 20 level.Its 15.The difference of 5 spells prepared is at level 14 or 15 if i remember correct.
Dont forget(i forgot it too) that sorc can "forget" spells, practicaly erasing most of the low levels spells to learn new when he levels up,
so the more spells known feature of the wizard is again "so-so".

It's hardly a "so-so" ability. Sorcerers are restricted in what spells they take because they must be versatile spells. Whereas a wizard can have many spells known that serve a specific function and prepare them for when he has the need.

A Sorcerer can only forget spells on level up, not any time it is convenient for him. It means he can take spells that are effective at lower levels but lose effectiveness as level goes up like Sleep, but it doesn't mean he can have anything available to him.

A Sorcerer pretty much gets 2 spells for the 2-6th level spells and 1 spell for the 7-9th level spell. Sure you get 3 first level spells but that is your prime slot for trading them out for higher level ones. There are a lot of good utility spells at lower levels so its not like you want to know a ton of higher level spells and no lower level ones.

That and they don't get rituals which wizards will have as long as they know the spell. So they don't take up spell slots prepared.

Sorcerer is very good at the few things it does due to meta-magic. While Wizards have far more versatility. That's how the classes are designed, and how they play.

[Balor777]

At every level up until 10 level you learn practicaly 2 spells per level up.One new and one for an exchange for a forgoten.Its a little bit tricky.
At 2nd level you know 3 1st level spells.
At 3rd level you can forget 1 first and learn a second level and you add another second level spell.so known 1st:2 2nd:2
At 4th level again forget 1 first level and learn another 2nd.So known:1st:1, 2nd:4
At fifth level again you can forget 1 2nd and learn a 3rd and another 3rd.So 1st:1, 2nd:3 3rd:2 and the story goes on.
You will have the slots you really need from lower slots and have more higher level spells allways, without the cost and the time consumed,to buy scrolls/materials and to learn the spells.

[hawklost]

Guys about more spells prepared,
you realise its 11 vs 15 spells prepared at level 10 and 20 vs 25 at level 20 right.
Thats the list with rituals: Reason Ritual are awesome in certain cases
Alarm 1st used to create a warning for when resting needs to occur
Comprehend Languages 1st Lots of time out of combat people need to know what those riddles say
Detect Magic 1st Hey look, those items are magic... and that wall is magic, and lots of those blobs there look magic and maybe are traps
Find Familiar 1st Scout, annoyance, warning system, messanger
Identify 1st Knowing what a magic item does after getting it is so much better than just guessing something is magical
Illusory Script 1st
Tenser's Floating Disk 1st Loot carrier
Unseen Servant 1st not super useful unless you like 'luxary'
Gentle Repose 2nd Love this when you have to bring your dead friend back to life but gotta find someone to do it first, also great for extending those rations since things don't decar
Magic Mouth 2nd
Feign Death 3rd
Leomund's Tiny Hut 3rd Dry, safe, secure and can be taken anywhere? Who wouldn't want this on an adventure?
Phantom Steed 3rd For those times when you want a fast mount and don't feel like taking care of a real one
Water Breathing 3rd Ship and underwater adventures (see shipwreck and loots for reasons)
Contact Other Plane 5th
Rary's Telepathic Bond 5th
Drawmij's Instant Summons 6th

And thats what spells wizard can know over Sorc.(Sorc has some 6 spells over wizard too.)
http://postimg.org/image/vsc22dtef/
Thats it.Now try to see how many of this spell sorc doesnt have you would have prepared lets say at 10th level.
Im still trying to find whats the very good subclass tha wizard has too.They are good but nothing so special.

Do the above rituals,
5 spells more prepared per day more( at the spells at the pic above that wizard has)
and 10 level slot value recharge once per day(max level 6th level) at 20th level make up for:
You forgot 2 Infinite 1st or 2nd level spells, changeable with 8 hours prep
You forgot 2 extra 3rd level spells permanently remembered that can be cast every short rest (hey fireball and Lightning if you are combat oriented)
-permanent mage armor,
-Permanent fly at 14 level without concentration.Burn people from above without the fear to loose the consetration and fall like a sack. Or what about fly + greater invisibility?
-1 hp per level makind the D6 hit die D8.
-More spells per day(If you like to talk about high levels at 20 lvl sorc will have 70 points burning 1/2/3/4 level slots to create 10x 5th level spells or for 58 points cast all 9th, 8th, 7th and 6th level spells twined and create 2x 6 level spells with the remaning 12 points.You see not only he cast 2 times the value of 6/7/8/9 lvl spells but they are casted at the same round.
-Cha mod to everything you cast using your element will agree this is awesome but a wizard can have a subclass with this too including 1 point cost for 2x 2d10 cantrips at level 5(Thats 32 dpr at 1 point cost at level 5) Awesome for limited uses a day, but still awesome
-CON saving throw. Definitely an awesome thing, but can be gotten through multiple ways for Wizard (feat or subclass)
-Elemental resistance of your dragon type without the need to be dragonborn.(Fire resistance? yay!) Can be gotten through subclass of Wizard
-And the other metamagic powers of course making you THE bomber/controller/buffer. You mean your 2 other choices then twin which you seem adamant is needed?Also + 3 to DC in not bad either and you will have 22 spell save DC. "Wait!...DONT KILL THAT KRAKEN(Challenge 23), we're gonna need it."

I dont know guys.I believe ALL classes are good at this edition.But if we had to divide the classes to powerfull and ok, wizard would be at the ok list.
Sorc - Great Blaster OR Controller OR Buffer
Wizard - Good Blaster or Good Controller or Good Buffer. Good also at being travel comfort, identifying magic, Scouting, Carrying loot, deciphering ancient information All at the same time as being good at one of the other three options too. They are more generalists than a specialist but can do a great deal more range than any other caster.
At the end...Hell give sorc 2 levels of Paladin dip and you will have smites... a lot of them(2 smites for 1st lvl slot burned) 20AC , duelist style etc etc(You need warcaster tho)
Dwarf Wizard can have AC of 25 per round with that same shield and war caster and never lose it (they do use their reaction though)
I dont want to push my opinion inside your minds really btw. :)

I am not saying that Sorceror is inferior to a Wizard in what they do, they are just more limited (and have always been). I love my Wizard and my Sorc when I played them but I would never play a Sorceror and a Wizard the same exact way since their mechanics are highly different.

EDIT:

At every level up until 10 level you learn practicaly 2 spells per level up.One new and one for an exchange for a forgoten.Its a little bit tricky.
At 2nd level you know 3 1st level spells.
At 3rd level you can forget 1 first and learn a second level and you add another second level spell.so known 1st:2 2nd:2
At 4th level again forget 1 first level and learn another 2nd.So known:1st:1, 2nd:4
At fifth level again you can forget 1 2nd and learn a 3rd and another 3rd.So 1st:1, 2nd:3 3rd:2 and the story goes on.
You will have the slots you really need from lower slots and have more higher level spells allways, without the cost and the time consumed,to buy scrolls/materials and to learn the spells.

And for a Wizard, at every level you learn 2 spells. You never have to forget one that might not be useful in the future because you are gaining 2 new ones at the highest slot (or lower if you want). Note that there is a debate about whether the book just adds 2 spells for wizard when they level or if they have to add them in, but for most people who play, magically adding them in seems the norm.

You also can take all those scrolls you find in the world (if DM decides) and start adding them to your spell list when you have the time/money. That gives you more spells gained during adventures.

[DireSickFish]

At every level up until 10 level you learn practicaly 2 spells per level up.One new and one for an exchange for a forgoten.Its a little bit tricky.
At 2nd level you know 3 1st level spells.
At 3rd level you can forget 1 first and learn a second level and you add another second level spell.so known 1st:2 2nd:2
At 4th level again forget 1 first level and learn another 2nd.So known:1st:1, 2nd:4
At fifth level again you can forget 1 2nd and learn a 3rd and another 3rd.So 1st:1, 2nd:3 3rd:2 and the story goes on.
You will have the slots you really need from lower slots and have more higher level spells allways, without the cost and the time consumed,to buy scrolls/materials and to learn the spells.

I think you are undervaluing lower level spells. What you are doing is giving yourself versatility in the fewest number of spells you can cast per day. What 1 first level spell is your sorcerer going to have? Is it going to be the same spell for every sorcerer? What if you really need one of those spells you gave up, like say feather fall?

I recognize you -can- do what you are suggesting, but that is in no way as good as -not- giving up spells known for other spells known.

[7heprofessor]

In 3.5, spells scaled with caster level, and so there were always a few low-level spells that scaled well enough to give you something to do with those spell slots. Now, though, if a spell scales at all, it does so by using a higher-level slot. But that leaves you with a bunch of low-level slots. Now, sorcerers can convert those slots to sorcery points, and warlocks don't have low-level slots, but what do wizards, clerics, druids, and bards do with their low slots that makes them at all worthwhile?

Utility.

The Wizard spell list is full of spells that are great for very specific occasions - not all of which are rituals. I've played a few high-level spellcasters in D&D that still make use of the following spells quite often:


Disguise Self - great for confusing pursuers
Invisibility - this speaks for itself I think
Knock - great way to make an entrance...even if the door isn't locked!
Nystul's Magic Aura - confuses your enemies into thinking your totally decked out in Magic Items!
Suggestion - cause mass chaos in the market place as you suggest that several people get into fights
Charm Person/Friends - guards are usually low enough level to fail these saves



This is just an example (quickly penned as well) of the great utility that low-level spells offer. Always consider the out-of-combat application of spells and you'll start to see just how awesome low level magic is in social situations, and for problem solving.


either way...just my 2 cp

[Balor777]

@hawklost you have some mistakes at some points i wont refer further because i may sound like a smartass.
About spell mastey(∞ 1st/2nd level spells, comes at 18 level but i could say its ok)
Signature spell comes at level 20 and its a bad capstone(sorc restoration is worse yes :smalltongue: )
intelligence added to spell damage is an evoker only subclass ability.Evoker is not my favourite.I like abdjuration
spell restinance(wow) + the ward .Anyway i think this subject reached lvl20 and will go to rest :)

[Eslin]

@hawklost you have some mistakes at some points i wont refer further because i may sound like a smartass.
About spell mastey(∞ 1st/2nd level spells, comes at 18 level but i could say its ok)
Signature spell comes at level 20 and its a bad capstone(sorc restoration is worse yes :smalltongue: )
intelligence added to spell damage is an evoker only subclass ability.Evoker is not my favourite.I like abdjuration
spell restinance(wow) + the ward .Anyway i think this subject reached lvl20 and will go to rest :)

Spell mastery's pretty fantastic, actually - it basically means a permanent +5 AC and unlimited misty step or mirror image.

[SharkForce]

even the wizard capstone can be quite handy.

you can keep a fireball or something in there if you want, but it can be so much more... for a necromancer, it's free skeletons and a ton of self-healing per short rest. for an abjurer, it's a free dispel magic and counterspell per short rest. there are a variety of utility spells and buffs that are quite valuable at that level as well, and some good offensive options.

it looks bad compared to the rest of the class being ridiculously good. for many other classes, getting a pair of level 3 wizard spells per short rest would be a very nice ability.

[Eslin]

even the wizard capstone can be quite handy.

you can keep a fireball or something in there if you want, but it can be so much more... for a necromancer, it's free skeletons and a ton of self-healing per short rest. for an abjurer, it's a free dispel magic and counterspell per short rest. there are a variety of utility spells and buffs that are quite valuable at that level as well, and some good offensive options.

it looks bad compared to the rest of the class being ridiculously good. for many other classes, getting a pair of level 3 wizard spells per short rest would be a very nice ability.

It's still not amazing though. Made up for by the level 18 ability and level 17 spells being ridiculous, however.

[hawklost]

The wizard capston is also 2 other 3rd level spells prepared that day for 'free'.

That means they can prepare 2 higher level spells if they don't think they will need any other 3rd level spells.

That means that they have 2 extra 3rd level spells they can cast that day (limited to those spells of course)

that means that even if they lose their book, they will be able to replace those spells without fail in a new book (or never bother since they cannot forget them)

[Eslin]

The wizard capston is also 2 other 3rd level spells prepared that day for 'free'.

That means they can prepare 2 higher level spells if they don't think they will need any other 3rd level spells.

That means that they have 2 extra 3rd level spells they can cast that day (limited to those spells of course)

that means that even if they lose their book, they will be able to replace those spells without fail in a new book (or never bother since they cannot forget them)

Still really not that impressive as a capstone.

[pwykersotz]

Still really not that impressive as a capstone.

To be fair, it does compare favorably with most of the others. Certainly better than the Monk.

[Logical DM]

To be fair, it does compare favorably with most of the others. Certainly better than the Monk.

Yeah, but the real problem is the huge disparity in capstone power. Paladins, barbarians etc get really useful, unique stuff, while plenty of classes just have 'if you deliberately deplete yourself of all your resources you get a tiny amount back when you roll initiative' or something equally crap. Wizards merely get something kind of mediocre.

[pwykersotz]

Yeah, but the real problem is the huge disparity in capstone power. Paladins, barbarians etc get really useful, unique stuff, while plenty of classes just have 'if you deliberately deplete yourself of all your resources you get a tiny amount back when you roll initiative' or something equally crap. Wizards merely get something kind of mediocre.

That was very much not my point. For the purposes of this discussion I don't care what the overall disparity is. I was just saying that it should not be the focus of a Wizard discussion since their capstone hits neither extreme.

[Logical DM]

That was very much not my point. For the purposes of this discussion I don't care what the overall disparity is. I was just saying that it should not be the focus of a Wizard discussion since their capstone hits neither extreme.

Well, fair enough. It is relevant though, since it means you don't really want to take that 20th level.

[SharkForce]

Well, fair enough. It is relevant though, since it means you don't really want to take that 20th level.

you might not want to. I'm quite happy to do so. it may not be the most amazing capstone ever, but as I've pointed out, for some wizards it is a very nice ability to have, and allows you to save spells known, and gives you some spell slots you don't need to conserve quite so carefully.