How to Survive in America [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Nepenthe

2015-02-10, 12:59 AM

Bhu

2015-02-10, 02:39 AM

Given the rules of Gitp, there is no way I could honestly answer this question. I must offer hugs instead.

Greenish

2015-02-10, 03:02 AM

I Hard work, dedication and perseverance aside, how does one actually make money?
By having money.

SiuiS

2015-02-10, 03:07 AM

I don't normally like to talk about my personal life on message boards, but I'm at my wit's end and I need to vent. Hopefully the playground can offer me some good advice as well.

All my life I've done everything right. Worked hard in school, got good grades, went to University, got a job, worked hard there, got married, and very recently had a kid. But at every step of the way it's been a struggle just to get by. I've never been wealthy, never known luxury -- never known much more than the basics of survival, really.

Now, I don't hate my job. And I'm darn good at it too. So good, in fact, that the higher-ups don't want to have to replace me. This effectively means I'm stuck in that position forever. I keep seeing less qualified people moving up while I have to fight tooth and nail for a cost-of-living raise. And the pay just isn't cutting it anymore. Changing jobs seems like the obvious answer, but it's not that easy here. Getting hired has absolutely nothing to do with qualifications or work ethic and everything to do with knowing the right people. Since all the important people I know work for the same company I already work for, getting out seems nigh impossible. My spouse is in the same boat with her company. Our combined incomes barely cover rent, nevermind utilities, insurance, gas, etc. So here I am working my butt off every day and still running up credit card debt just to keep the lights on and buy food for my child.

I'm in the same boat. Really. The trick is to cut your expenditures, but that's hard. We are conditioned to live to the limit. If you got a huge raise, you wouldn't keep the same quality of life, you would get more stuff that keeps you just as stressed. It's human nature. Difficult to shake.

Meanwhile, nearly every day I see people buying lobster and $8 chocolate bars with food stamps while talking on their iPhones then driving off in their current-year SUVs. Clearly the whole "Work hard and get ahead" thing is a myth (it was probably true once), but I never learned any other way. I don't know how to abuse the system. I don't know how to just take things. All I know is how to try my absolute hardest at anything that's put before me, but clearly that doesn't pay.

Some false assumptions here. First and foremost, it is much, much, much easier to buy a flat screen TV than it is to get good clothes or pay rent, utility bills, or attend college. That's an actual fact; there are so many ways to get expensive goods despite having a frankly unholy quality of life that it's ridiculous; I broke my hand and that put a stop to my massage therapy career for a hole, which put the breaks on the teaching position I was basically guaranteed, which means I'm working retail now until I get hired at one of the places I have applied to. I can't afford the food in my own store.

I also have a flat screen tv, we have two vehicles, I have an iPhone 5s, my wife has a 6. Sure, I only have three pairs of pants, I haven't been to the dentist to cover my 10,000 dollar work in like, six months, I don't know how I'll pay for my student loans, and I can't even fathom how to take care of my daughter aside from teaching her to be okay growing up in want as I did, but that's not saying I can't get another $3,500 credit line or a big loan if I wanted. Those loans are the trap, though. Stuff like new cars and phones is easy to get. You don't pay money to do so, you increase your debt.

Food stamps are also hard to actually use for good food. Most people with them are in low enough spirits that the $8 chocolate bar is the only thing keeping them going.

Third, my da had a saying, and it's work smarter, not harder. Our society no longer works like it did in the 1950s. You can't be a company man and be taken care of for your loyalty. It doesn't work that way. It's all about the ability to jump ship or leverage your ship jumping, and frankly we were not only never taught that but highly discouraged from thinking it. It feels mutinous! But try to play hard; if you say give me a cost of living raise or I walk out, be ready to walk out. Don't cave, ever. Don't fall into the trap bosses set either, you'll be told "well if you take on more responsibility, maybe I'll give you..." No. Money given for work done. No maybes. No possibles. Give it to me in writing and I'll do it. But never let your bosses get free work out of you. One of the guys I used to talk to, who works in a corporate environment, said once "you can tell who is assertive and who knows their worth, by payroll. Almost everyone is making less than they're worth.", and that stuck.

I've known all this for quite some time, so why gripe about it now? Well the family member who had been baby-sitting for us just decided she can't do it anymore. There's absolutely no room in the budget for child care so I'll probably have to quit or severely cut my hours at work to take care of the baby. That means even less money coming to cover basic living expenses. I honestly have no idea how I'm going to get through this. And I feel like a terrible father because I can't provide for my child.

Perfect!

Tell your boss, "you have two options. I get a (%) pay increase immediately or I am leaving. This is not a discussion. This is desperation. If I don't make enough to pay for child care, I will stay home and do child care myself. I'm sorry, but there's no other way.", and start shooting resumes to other companies now.

If you're as valuable as you think – half as valuable, even – you'll likely get the raise. Depending on the environment, if you send in your resume as if you were an external trying to get a (higher paying than current) position, you may get bonus points.

I guess my question is: Hard work, dedication and perseverance aside, how does one actually make money?

Anyway, thanks for listening to a poor man whinge.

Why make money? I don't want money. I want good, shelter, security and a good life for my child.money helps but isn't mandatory. Try homesteading. Grow vegetables to help with your food budget. Use your entertainment expenses for ah good book and maybe an rpg system. Find more ways to fulfill your life through working at home (fixing things rather than buying things, Etc.).

Some of these are stop-gaps, but it's not the lack of income that is killing you. It's the debt. Anything to drop your debt is good. More money doesn't guarantee that will happen, though.

I'm root in' for you, mate! I'm sorry we're in this boat together. Let's try to make the best of what we know, though. :smallsmile:

RedCloakLives!

2015-02-10, 03:11 AM

[Quickly checks forum rules ...]

Well, without veering into real world politics or religion, and staying away from turning this into anything remotely resembling a professional advice situation, real or imagined, could you elaborate a just little bit on what you and/or your SO do for a living, and very generally where you live?

The reason I ask is, at a strategic level, some whole industries get paid more than other industries. Then there's the other way of looking at things, the old adage, you don't get rich working for someone else. And then there's office politics, a whole 'nother problem. And the law of supply and demand.

Surviving can be tough.

SiuiS

2015-02-10, 03:29 AM

Ah, good point. I guess I should clarify that I am sharing anecdotes from folks who are on both sides of the success line rather than giving professional advice? I'm guessing that not knowing the profession helps there though.

Douglas

2015-02-10, 03:35 AM

What kind of job are you talking about? Do some Internet research (glassdoor.com is my usual go-to site) on typical salaries for your job in your area, you might be surprised.

Yes, companies usually do give preferential treatment to people their current employees and managers already know, but there are always companies who have run out of such people and still need more, and the job market is increasingly moving online these days. You might need nothing more than some job search web sites and persistence.

AtlanteanTroll

2015-02-10, 03:52 AM

I had a post written up, then I re-read what was already posted, and SiuS beat me to pretty much everything. And I mean everything. Give your boss an ultimatum. If you're so good at your job, a company in the same sector should happily hire you at a greater pay/position. Though getting a good recommendation could be problematic, depending on what terms you leave on.

Crow

2015-02-10, 04:01 AM

Nepethe, I can't veer into a lot of your topic due to forums rules, but it appears we share some opinions on things. That said, the biggest thing you can do this very day is cut expenditures. If you're not buying bulk bags of rice and beans at the grocery store and making liberal use of a crock pot, now is the time to start. I can give more info on eating healthy on the cheap, but I don't want to get into it if you don't need it. If you get to a point where you are looking for a new job, look for ones with companies that offer child care.

Other than that, if you are in California (or hell- even if you aren't). I know of temporary entry-level positions that you can work for a month or so to pull home a quick $10k (before taxes). When they lay you off once no longer needed, you qualify for unemployment, and it is a nice chunk since your "previous" job was paying so well. If you or your wife are able to get a month away from your current jobs*, I can drop you a line next time I hear that we are needing people.

*The Family Medical Leave Act is a great way to do this!

My company also offers child care, but I don't know if contract employees are eligible.

SiuiS

2015-02-10, 04:36 AM

stuff

You're good people, Crow. Thanks for being around. If you have any specifics on how that crockpot thing should work, hook em up – I am terribly unimaginative and stupid when it comes to food :(
Speaking of...

Crock pot food is a good start, just... Avoid fancy cookbooks. They lead you astray! I can't find two recipes in my own that share more than two ingredients, which means you can't rely on it for both variety and frugality. Chopped vegetables, meat, spices and stock does wonders, and come to think of it I was at my healthiest when every night I ended up with some variety of (corn/peas/mixed veggies/carrots&broccoli), mashed potatoes, shredded (chicken/pork/beef). Buy in bulk, cool in bulk, store the leftovers is an amazing formula if you can pull it off.

Cut power use! Electric, pull cords out. Don't leave the DVR box on while the TV is off. Turn off those lights! This is a universal problem. My grandfather, my mother, and myself, we all wander around our respective houses turning off switches, muttering about how we must be rich to afford all this electricity! :smallbiggrin:

Layers! It's cold this time of year. Bundle up instead of touching the thermostat; get cold, go play outside! Make it a fun time with the kid. When you come back in it'll almost be stifling. Close off peripheral rooms and lair in the common area to keep heat in! Reverse the process in summer.

What else? Uh... Speed! Don't do that. My truck, my wife gets 400 miles on a full tank. I usually get 300. The difference is, coming home around midnight, I don't realize that I'm hitting 75-80 mph because I'm still one of the slower vehicles on the freeway! That's amazing, that like, five extra minutes every day in commuting could save me a third tank of gas.

Crow

2015-02-10, 04:46 AM

What else? Uh... Speed! Don't do that. My truck, my wife gets 400 miles on a full tank. I usually get 300. The difference is, coming home around midnight, I don't realize that I'm hitting 75-80 mph because I'm still one of the slower vehicles on the freeway! That's amazing, that like, five extra minutes every day in commuting could save me a third tank of gas.

I save a crap ton of gas by driving the speed limit compared to when I speed. It sounds so stupid, but it's no joke.

Killer Angel

2015-02-10, 07:02 AM

Nepenthe

2015-02-10, 09:00 AM

Thanks for all the tips, guys. And sorry for the rambling first post. First, I want to say that I was in no way looking for anything illegal. No breaking bad for me. Rather I was hoping for some life-hack type advice.

As to the forum rules, I really don't see work as political -- it's just work. I can see how things might veer that direction though, so sorry for that. I only mention food stamps because I make too much money to qualify for them, but not enough to keep my pantry stocked. I make no judgements on people who do qualify for them. Also, I was thinking in terms of general life advice more than professional advice, so sorry if I put you all in an awkward spot there.

If I could go back in time I would have learned a trade instead of going to University, but at the time not going would have disappointed everyone in my life. I can't blame them. That was the "work hard so your kids can go to college" generation.

For the record, I work for a wireless (cell phone) retailer. My spouse is a pharmacy tech.

AtlanteanTroll

2015-02-10, 09:02 AM

I think the concern, for some, was less political and more legal... But I may be wrong. And they definitely have intersectionality.

What is your actual degree in?

shawnhcorey

2015-02-10, 09:41 AM

How to survive in America? Leave.

I guess my question is: Hard work, dedication and perseverance aside, how does one actually[I] make money?

Do what the rich folk do: print it.

But seriously, US companies have too many managers. Which means they're too busy playing power games to actually run the company. And it means that to move up in a company, you have to play their game; you have to get your nose brown.

Chen

2015-02-10, 10:47 AM

If I could go back in time I would have learned a trade instead of going to University, but at the time not going would have disappointed everyone in my life. I can't blame them. That was the "work hard so your kids can go to college" generation.

Yeah, this is something that we really need to stop pushing on our children. University is NOT right for everyone. There is a HUGE demand for skilled tradespeople. Becoming and electrician or a plumber is not something we should fear for our children. They are necessary and good jobs. Likely far better paid and with better future prospects than someone who goes and finishes a non-STEM degree just so they can say they went to University.

That said, I agree with what others have posted here. You need to be aggressive at asking for raises/promotions. Send out CVs, look for other job prospects and then go in to the bosses office and speak to them plainly but bluntly. You need more money to stick around here. You can see you're not really progressing towards anything and without some future prospects you're going to have to go elsewhere.

pendell

2015-02-10, 11:10 AM

I guess my question is: Hard work, dedication and perseverance aside, how does one actually make money?

I sincerely wish I could answer this question because I'm barely ahead of the curve myself.

Some suggestions:
1) Start a business and be in the lucky 10% that don't fail. No one ever gets rich as an employee of someone else, not in America. Of course, the business will consume your every waking hour which you need for kids.

2) Work for the government, or in law. Sad to say, those are the growth industries in America. Increasing regulation and greater government control of the economy makes it harder and harder to function as a private business if you're not already a gigantic company like Microsoft. I work at a small private company and we struggle a lot. But the business of regulation and litigation is doing just fine.

3) Medicine remains a growth area as well, I believe.

4) IT and technology with a graduate degree also offer a path to success but the road is pretty rocky, especially because offshoring software development is a thing again. I just spoke with a developer who just got a job drafting requirements for the coders who are in Vietnam.

The US is steadily turning into a country where people from the very top flight schools in the right professions have nearly unlimited opportunity. Those with degrees in , say, socioeconomics instead of law, or those from lesser schools, are increasingly being squeezed out. It's a world where only the very intelligent or the very rich have the economic opportunities. For traditional blue-collar work, the market looks increasingly dismal.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

VincentTakeda

2015-02-10, 11:19 AM

I'm kind of in the opposite position. I was raised on 'work smarter not harder' and I thought I had the golden ticket because I've got a 168 iq. I'm the crown prince of work smarter not harder, but that adage hasn't paid very well recently... The dilbert principle has been more real for me...

A: Folk get promoted to their level of ineptitude... I've never had a job where my boss understood what was going on better than I did. I have never been able to leverage this fact into getting their position. Companies do not want a person who understands whats going on to be in a position of power because it threatens their position of power.

B: Work harder not smarter is the new mantra... I'm seeing quite starkly that the only way to get jobs in my field (telecom/networking/it) is to be the guy who says 'yes master, I will agree to 2 hours of commuting, 50 hours a week and on-call 24x7'... If you're not willing to sell them every moment of your waking and non waking life, they'll surely find someone else who is, even if that person is less qualified.

As a middle aged single dad I'm not willing to make that kind of commitment so the job opportunities are not flowing for the work smarter not harder crowd either, I can tell you that... At least in my field, its the hard worker getting the bones while the smart guy who's trying to improve processes gets the boot.

The path to success here now is to do it all, all at once... A cacophony of activity. The new revolution is 'work smarter AND harder'. Build your brand... People are corporations and as Rockhound used to say, the ship you're on is made of a million moving parts put together by the lowest bidder. The path to success seems to be 'go back to school'. Get more paper. Get more debt. The system rewards a wage slave. He is supple for he is beholden to his debt. The 'capable enough' human wage slave is not a rare thing. It is not a hot commodity.

In the world of supply and demand, competent or trainable humans are in large supply, thus demand is low, thus price is low. Thats not politics... Thats economics. The one's that can get ahead are not just the capable ones, they're the one's who are both capable, eager, and interested in doing little else with their day.

Spiryt

2015-02-10, 11:25 AM

How to survive in America? Leave.

Eh, there aren't exactly many places out there were some stranger/newcomer can leave easier and wealthier than in USA, or at least some places in US.

So that's weird advise.

shawnhcorey

2015-02-10, 11:35 AM

Eh, there aren't exactly many places out there were some stranger/newcomer can leave easier and wealthier than in USA, or at least some places in US.

So that's weird advise.

America was a good place to live in the 1950s and 60s. Sadly, it's not true any more. There is large unemployment and under-employment because many companies shipped their factories to China and the surplus of worker have driven wages down.

Where to go? China, India, German, even Brazil.

Anarion

2015-02-10, 11:45 AM

Out of curiosity, is income so tight that going out to lunch with coworkers isn't doable? How about if you brown-bag it and go eat together? The way that you get to know people that give opportunities is to hang out with them. Start with the people you work with, but if there's no possibility there, you can try people elsewhere.

When you say that you work for a cell-phone company, what level of work is that? Are you working a cash register? Stocking a store? Managing anything? What would you say your split is between physical labor and mental labor on an average day?

Flickerdart

2015-02-10, 12:06 PM

Eh, there aren't exactly many places out there were some stranger/newcomer can leave easier and wealthier than in USA, or at least some places in US.

So that's weird advise.
It should be simpler than sin to get a work visa for Canada, thanks to NAFTA. Canada is awesome and you should go there to be awesome too. *waves beaver flag*

Telonius

2015-02-10, 12:18 PM

2) Work for the government, or in law. Sad to say, those are the growth industries in America. Increasing regulation and greater government control of the economy makes it harder and harder to function as a private business if you're not already a gigantic company like Microsoft. I work at a small private company and we struggle a lot. But the business of regulation and litigation is doing just fine.

Law is actually not doing as well as it used to. Sticking to anecdotes (per forum rules), but I know at least four people who graduated with law degrees in the last ten years who can't find legal work, or the work they can find is making barely more than minimum wage. Forget about even being a paralegal, they were looking at basic envelope-stuffing. Existing lawyers might be doing okay, but entry-level is as horrible in legal as it's been horrible in just about every other industry since the recession started.

Anarion

2015-02-10, 12:32 PM

Law is actually not doing as well as it used to. Sticking to anecdotes (per forum rules), but I know at least four people who graduated with law degrees in the last ten years who can't find legal work, or the work they can find is making barely more than minimum wage. Forget about even being a paralegal, they were looking at basic envelope-stuffing. Existing lawyers might be doing okay, but entry-level is as horrible in legal as it's been horrible in just about every other industry since the recession started.

It's a bit more complex than that. There are a small number of entry level firm jobs that mostly go to top 20 law schools. If you're not at a top tier school and you don't finish nearly best in your class, you more or less have to work for free for a couple years to qualify for most lawyer jobs.

shawnhcorey

2015-02-10, 12:39 PM

It should be simpler than sin to get a work visa for Canada, thanks to NAFTA. Canada is awesome and you should go there to be awesome too. *waves beaver flag*

It's not that easy to get a job. But what you do is set up a numbered corporation (about $300-500), hire yourself as an employee, and get a contract. Thanks to NAFTA, your company could get a contract in the US, Canada, or Mexico.

JusticeZero

2015-02-10, 01:18 PM

Related suggestion for this? Keep your job, update your resume, then send this rant to the HR of the competition. Then when they make offers, let YOUR company know what they are so suddenly they are competing to keep you. "I'd rather not change jobs because that's hard, but here is what your competitors are offering me."

pendell

2015-02-10, 01:23 PM

Also, somebody mentioned crime. The OP doesn't want to do that, and that is commendable purely on moral grounds.

However, there are a pragmatic reasons for even a chaotic evil without morals to eschew a life of crime in the US.

Essentially, if you're going to commit crimes you're essentially taking on a second job; a job in which you are assuming all the risks, a job you can't talk about to your employer or boss, a job in which there is no protection whatsoever if your suppliers or customers cheat you. Whaddaya gonna do, call the cops?

A business in which large men can come over and demand X% of your take, simply because they can. Again, ya gonna call the cops?

A job for which, at any moment, you can be arrested and lose not just your income from that job, but from everything else as well.

Crime in America is a bit like professional sports in that regard; there are perhaps a few hundred people in America who do so well at it they are extravagantly wealthy. But for that small minority there are millions of people scrambling , or in prison , or in deep debt to a loan shark (good luck getting a *legitimate* bank to loan you money to start, say, a gambling operation).

So, no. "Crime doesn't pay" in a very literal sense for most criminals. If you've got the time and energy to commit crimes, you've got the time and energy to run a legitimate side business or work a second job. You'll get as much or more money with none of the risks associated with operating outside the law.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Palanan

2015-02-10, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Crow
I can give more info on eating healthy on the cheap, but I don't want to get into it if you don't need it.

I wouldn't mind hearing more about this, although it's a topic that might warrant its own thread.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe
Getting hired has absolutely nothing to do with qualifications or work ethic and everything to do with knowing the right people.

I'd agree with you on the general mood of this--although in my field, at least, even knowing the right people you still need to be qualified.

Originally Posted by Chen
You need to be aggressive at asking for raises/promotions.

I would say proactive rather than aggressive, since employee/supervisor relations are almost always touchy and delicate.

And even this can be tremendously unfair in practice. I have a good buddy who essentially talked himself into a promotion and a raise, simply because he's a chatty, friendly guy who was good friends with the departmental budget coordinator. It's great for him, but quietly frustrating to anyone with more training, experience, and responsibilities, but not as much brio and bonhomie.

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey
Where to go? China, India, German[y], even Brazil.

Have you actually been to any of these countries?

I've worked and traveled in three of the four you list, and while they all have their merits, none are places I'd want to settle and raise kids.

.

shawnhcorey

2015-02-10, 01:28 PM

Crime in America is a bit like professional sports in that regard; there are perhaps a few hundred people in America who do so well at it they are extravagantly wealthy.

More like 1%. They are called rich.

Crow

2015-02-10, 01:33 PM

First, I want to say that I was in no way looking for anything illegal. No breaking bad for me. Rather I was hoping for some life-hack type advice.

Wait- Who advocated anything illegal? Did I miss it?

But seriously, US companies have too many managers. Which means they're too busy playing power games to actually run the company. And it means that to move up in a company, you have to play their game; you have to get your nose brown.

This.

A: Folk get promoted to their level of ineptitude... I've never had a job where my boss understood what was going on better than I did. I have never been able to leverage this fact into getting their position. Companies do not want a person who understands whats going on to be in a position of power because it threatens their position of power.

B: Work harder not smarter is the new mantra... I'm seeing quite starkly that the only way to get jobs in my field (telecom/networking/it) is to be the guy who says 'yes master, I will agree to 2 hours of commuting, 50 hours a week and on-call 24x7'... If you're not willing to sell them every moment of your waking and non waking life, they'll surely find someone else who is, even if that person is less qualified.

Also this.

1) Start a business and be in the lucky 10% that don't fail. No one ever gets rich as an employee of someone else, not in America. Of course, the business will consume your every waking hour which you need for kids.

I finally got frustrated enough to do this. I kept my current job though, and just put the business profit back into the company. Slowly but surely I will be able to leave my current job if things continue as they are. Actually I could leave now if my ****ty job didn't pay me off so well.

SiuiS

2015-02-10, 01:34 PM

Thanks for all the tips, guys. And sorry for the rambling first post. First, I want to say that I was in no way looking for anything illegal. No breaking bad for me. Rather I was hoping for some life-hack type advice.

Crock pots. Cut power bills. Cook in bulk. Lower debt instead of boosting wages. That's it I think, really :-/

Upshot: if you do the workplace ultimatum and throw snake eyes, you'll likely qualify for food stamps. That helps a lot.

If I could go back in time I would have learned a trade instead of going to University, but at the time not going would have disappointed everyone in my life. I can't blame them. That was the "work hard so your kids can go to college" generation.

For the record, I work for a wireless (cell phone) retailer. My spouse is a pharmacy tech.

There's never a reason to think it's too late. It's what I'm doing; if you've got a good back and work ethic, iron workers are booming right now for all the construction going on, especially near California. You have to start doing the grunt work, which is the most physically intense work I've ever had and the only thing I have ever categorically failed for not being good enough, though.

Trade work is a lot of bull doing gopher work for a few years and maybe still not getting your journeyman's title in order to save money, and even getting to that point is a matter of persistence as much as eligibility. But heck, putting in a call a week to the local unions or something doesn't interfere with what you're doing, if you're willing.

Yeah, this is something that we really need to stop pushing on our children. University is NOT right for everyone.

That and academia does not really apply to much anymore. The culture of it no longer feats one for work so much as for being an academic.

Law is actually not doing as well as it used to.

Aye. All the jobs we were told as kids were the way to go – medical, law – are full of overqualified and under paid folks because everyone agreed with their parents.

It's not that easy to get a job. But what you do is set up a numbered corporation (about $300-500), hire yourself as an employee, and get a contract. Thanks to NAFTA, your company could get a contract in the US, Canada, or Mexico.

Professional advice friend. Be careful of specifics.

Tengu_temp

2015-02-10, 01:38 PM

Now, I don't hate my job. And I'm darn good at it too. So good, in fact, that the higher-ups don't want to have to replace me. This effectively means I'm stuck in that position forever. I keep seeing less qualified people moving up while I have to fight tooth and nail for a cost-of-living raise.

There are two most likely possiblities here:
1. Your boss doesn't like you, while he likes those other people much more.
2. You're not as awesome at your job as you think you are, and you simply perceive those "less qualified" people poorly.

Clearly the whole "Work hard and get ahead" thing is a myth (it was probably true once), but I never learned any other way.

The self-made man is, and always was, a myth. It's true for maybe one person out of a million. For everyone else, its main purpose is to shame poor people and put responsibility for their state on their shoulders: "you're poor because you just don't work hard enough!"

I don't know how to abuse the system. I don't know how to just take things.

Then learn, for the sake of your family. I'm not advising you to do anything illegal, but do research and take advantage of every form of help, and every loophole in the system, that's available to you. Those welfare stamps you mentioned, for example - are you sure you don't qualify for them?

Tyndmyr

2015-02-10, 01:40 PM

I don't normally like to talk about my personal life on message boards, but I'm at my wit's end and I need to vent. Hopefully the playground can offer me some good advice as well.

All my life I've done everything right. Worked hard in school, got good grades, went to University, got a job, worked hard there, got married, and very recently had a kid. But at every step of the way it's been a struggle just to get by. I've never been wealthy, never known luxury -- never known much more than the basics of survival, really.

Well, wealth and luxury are inherently rare. Those are descriptions of people who are doing well above average. Don't beat yourself up for not ending up rich. Most of us have to struggle, at least a good bit of the time.

Now, I don't hate my job. And I'm darn good at it too. So good, in fact, that the higher-ups don't want to have to replace me. This effectively means I'm stuck in that position forever. I keep seeing less qualified people moving up while I have to fight tooth and nail for a cost-of-living raise. And the pay just isn't cutting it anymore. Changing jobs seems like the obvious answer, but it's not that easy here. Getting hired has absolutely nothing to do with qualifications or work ethic and everything to do with knowing the right people. Since all the important people I know work for the same company I already work for, getting out seems nigh impossible. My spouse is in the same boat with her company. Our combined incomes barely cover rent, nevermind utilities, insurance, gas, etc. So here I am working my butt off every day and still running up credit card debt just to keep the lights on and buy food for my child.

Knowing people is absolutely important. Qualifications, work ethic, these things are excellent, but how do you know if a stranger has them? Most of us would prefer to hire someone we already know has these qualities before taking a chance on a stranger. Employers are no different.

However, who you know is something you can improve. Social stuff can have value, especially within your field. Building a wide circle of contacts can take work and time, but it can absolutely pay off.

Meanwhile, nearly every day I see people buying lobster and $8 chocolate bars with food stamps while talking on their iPhones then driving off in their current-year SUVs. Clearly the whole "Work hard and get ahead" thing is a myth (it was probably true once), but I never learned any other way. I don't know how to abuse the system. I don't know how to just take things. All I know is how to try my absolute hardest at anything that's put before me, but clearly that doesn't pay.

Avoiding politics, because board rules, but you have a fine outlook. However, it's important to remember that scamming, luck, etc are always part of humanity. There are folks who, by hook or by crook, get ahead while being generally bad people. That's a weak long term strategy, though. People who depend on others may have nothing to fall back on when something fails to work out. People who are jerks to others may find themselves short on true friends.

Working hard isn't a path to easy riches or anything, but it's honest money, and it's something society needs. It's also a good foundation for many other things, such as perhaps building a business. So, your experience and effort, even if the results are not spectacular, are still very useful.

I've known all this for quite some time, so why gripe about it now? Well the family member who had been baby-sitting for us just decided she can't do it anymore. There's absolutely no room in the budget for child care so I'll probably have to quit or severely cut my hours at work to take care of the baby. That means even less money coming to cover basic living expenses. I honestly have no idea how I'm going to get through this. And I feel like a terrible father because I can't provide for my child.

I guess my question is: Hard work, dedication and perseverance aside, how does one actually make money?

Anyway, thanks for listening to a poor man whinge.

Working hard is a good foundation, but one can work hard at a minimum wage job forever, and not be very well rewarded for it. Long term planning is the key to financial success. Keep in mind that, as a young couple with a child, it's extremely normal to face financial(and other!) difficulties in that timeframe, but they tend to get better with time.

The key is having a long term plan. Whatever your career is, investigate the options. If the options look particularly bleak, consider investigating other careers as well. Consider starting a business. Draw up lists of what you would need to do to accomplish each of these plans, including any skills you would need to develop. Make sure to also draw up a sheet for "stay where I am". Cover all the options. Eventually, you should find that one plan appears more doable/desirable than the others.

Don't start with an ultimatum to your boss. After all, he might say "Fine, leave". Make sure you have a plan in place to cope with this before doing so.

I would particularly advocate checking out plans that do not severely disrupt your current life while you get them started. Say, selling stuff on Etsy(or whatever) can be a small niche thing that you can test without quitting your day job, so you can see if it works BEFORE taking a large risk.

I do have a business myself that has been functional(and growing) for a year and a half now, so I might be able to provide tips if you find yourself going in that direction.

Managing expenses is huge. For instance, I do not have a landline or cable tv. Inexpensive cell phone plans and a basic internet connection can provide the vast majority of this capability while minimizing monthly bills. Cheap eats are definitely worth looking into, and so forth. Basically, go over your finances for the past couple of months, and break down where your money is currently going in detail. Once you do that, you can budget more precisely, and figure out where it's reasonable to cut, and where it isn't.

America was a good place to live in the 1950s and 60s. Sadly, it's not true any more. There is large unemployment and under-employment because many companies shipped their factories to China and the surplus of worker have driven wages down.

Where to go? China, India, German, even Brazil.

....conditions are significantly worse in all of those places save Germany. Plus, moving overseas is quite expensive and difficult. I do not think this is very practical advice.

Tengu_temp

2015-02-10, 01:45 PM

Where to go? China, India, German, even Brazil.

Germany, yes. The other places, noooooooooo. Companies move their factories there because people there are willing to work for much lower wages than in first world countries, not because they're booming, rich economies.

Crow

2015-02-10, 01:48 PM

@Palanan:

Your PM folder is full.

Just saw your post in Nepenthe's thread about starting your own business. What did you end up doing?

I run a gym(s). It's a 24-hour place where people get a door code, but we only open the offices for 2.5 hours per day in the late afternoon/evening. This way it doesn't eat up as much time and I can continue working in the mean time. I probably miss out on some business by not having the office open all day, but it's still doing pretty well!

Palanan

2015-02-10, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Tengu_temp
Companies move their factories there because people there are willing to work for much lower wages than in first world countries, not because they're booming, rich economies.

Brazil's economy has come up tremendously in the past ten years, although the whys and whyfores can't be discussed here. Suffice it to say that Brazil's story is much more complex than your statement would suggest.

That said, I agree with Tyndmyr that moving to Brazil, or anywhere outside the U.S., will be extremely difficult in many ways, especially with a small child.

Crow:

Thanks for the heads-up on my PM box. :smallredface:

And I thought I remembered your saying you ran a gym. Sounds like a great sideline.

Tengu_temp

2015-02-10, 01:57 PM

Brazil's economy has come up tremendously in the past ten years

Well, so did Poland's, and unless you live in a poor third world country, I still wouldn't recommend moving in here.

It's true I mostly meant China and India though.

SiuiS

2015-02-10, 02:13 PM

@Palanan:

Your PM folder is full.

I run a gym(s). It's a 24-hour place where people get a door code, but we only open the offices for 2.5 hours per day in the late afternoon/evening. This way it doesn't eat up as much time and I can continue working in the mean time. I probably miss out on some business by not having the office open all day, but it's still doing pretty well!

Do you do the California fitness down in oakley? :smallconfused:

shawnhcorey

2015-02-10, 02:14 PM

In China, you can get a job teaching English. Pays better than factory work.

WarKitty

2015-02-10, 02:19 PM

My advice: Go to your local goodwill, or salvation army, or whatever. Tell them just what you told us - that you and your spouse are both working and you're not making enough to make ends meet. They have people who can figure out what help you qualify for and know what resources are available.

(Also - you can mark me down as another person on the food stamps and an iphone crowd...and I'm working on getting into a subsidized carshare program, which I think has pretty new cars..)

Palanan

2015-02-10, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey
In China, you can get a job teaching English. Pays better than factory work.

Again, I'd like to know if you've done this yourself, or if you have any personal experience in any of the countries you named.

Crow

2015-02-10, 02:22 PM

Do you do the California fitness down in oakley? :smallconfused:

No. (https://www.facebook.com/TheGymHelheim)

I've been meaning to update the pictures of the facility. The ones there are three years old from when we first got it running. A lot has changed since then.

SiuiS

2015-02-10, 04:58 PM

No. (https://www.facebook.com/TheGymHelheim)

I've been meaning to update the pictures of the facility. The ones there are three years old from when we first got it running. A lot has changed since then.

Score. A bit south for me now, but if I ever visit my grandma again I'll see if I can dip in. The photos look good, so far.

Errata

2015-02-10, 05:58 PM

Where to go? China, India, German, even Brazil.

China has higher income inequality than the US, and Brazil's is among the highest in the world. And their average is obviously lower to begin with, so greater inequality combined with a lower average means that things are really bad for the have-nots there.

India is not quite so unequal, but their median standard of living is far lower than even China or Brazil. An order of magnitude lower than in the US. If you have a minimum wage job in the US, you're way better off than most people in India.

Germany is a nice place. I'm not sure how easy it will be for you as a non-EU citizen to pick up and move there. I'm not sure what makes you think you'd be more employable by German employers than you are to US employers, and if you don't have a good job lined up it will make immigration more difficult.

Any of these involve a whole new language and culture and moving halfway across the world from friends and family. If you have the freedom in your life to just pick up and move your whole life for better opportunities, then great. You are in an excellent position to cast a very wide net in your job search and find a position in a better job market in another city. If you can move 5000 miles away to another continent, then surely you can move 1000 miles away to another state where the local economy may be a bit better for you. And you won't be at such a linguistic and cultural disadvantage there.

There are many, many good employers in the US. Lots of bad ones too, but all it takes is one good job. There are local markets and sectors of the economy where hiring conditions are much better. If you are in a position to consider emigrating to a developing nation, then you're in a position to locate one of the jobs in the US that is better than the one you have.

Tell your boss, "you have two options. I get a (%) pay increase immediately or I am leaving. This is not a discussion. This is desperation. If I don't make enough to pay for child care, I will stay home and do child care myself. I'm sorry, but there's no other way.", and start shooting resumes to other companies now.

An ultimatum is risky. You have to be prepared to act on it if they don't budge, which you probably don't want to do if you don't have something else to fall back on. If they haven't been keeping your salary competitive, they may think you don't have any better options and call your bluff. A much better negotiating position is to already have that better job lined up. Instead of making a possibly toothless threat, start your job search quietly, and don't limit yourself to only looking locally. Once you have the better job, you could consider a counteroffer to stay, or you could just take it since the current employer has already been taking you for granted for too long and they may go right back to doing it.

shawnhcorey

2015-02-10, 06:04 PM

If you are in a position to consider emigrating to a developing nation, then you're in a position to locate one of the jobs in the US that is better than the one you have.

Thinking outside the box makes it easier to think inside the box too.

Crow

2015-02-10, 08:22 PM

WarKitty

2015-02-10, 11:08 PM

Nepenthe

2015-02-10, 11:24 PM

Thanks again, everyone. I really appreciate all the advice and positivity.

For making a little extra money, there's always the option (if it's doable, obviously) to convert your hobby in an income source.
For example, if you're into Warhammer (Fantasy or 40K), you can paint and assemble minis, and sell 'em on Ebay... there's a very active market on that kind of subject. My main hobby is game design (video, table-top, board, card -- all kinds of games). I'm working on setting up a Patreon campaign to pursue that more.

A: Folk get promoted to their level of ineptitude... I've never had a job where my boss understood what was going on better than I did. I have never been able to leverage this fact into getting their position. Companies do not want a person who understands whats going on to be in a position of power because it threatens their position of power. Ain't that the truth. Failing upward seems to be an incredibly viable career path, and yet I can't figure out how to do it myself.

Out of curiosity, is income so tight that going out to lunch with coworkers isn't doable? How about if you brown-bag it and go eat together? The way that you get to know people that give opportunities is to hang out with them. Start with the people you work with, but if there's no possibility there, you can try people elsewhere. I have to brown-bag it every day. The important people eat out every day.

When you say that you work for a cell-phone company, what level of work is that? Are you working a cash register? Stocking a store? Managing anything?Yes. Mostly sales, activations, and troubleshooting though. And even though it's way outside the job description, they like to take advantage of my graphic design skills. Some of my designs were even used at a regional level.

There are two most likely possiblities here:
1. Your boss doesn't like you, while he likes those other people much more.
2. You're not as awesome at your job as you think you are, and you simply perceive those "less qualified" people poorly. Not sure if I'm allowed to comment on 2, but 1 is definitely true. I think I'm just too honest to be really effective at brown-nosing.

Alent

2015-02-11, 05:04 AM

Not sure if I'm allowed to comment on 2, but 1 is definitely true. I think I'm just too honest to be really effective at brown-nosing.

#1 seems to be a very common problem. Per chance have you looked into transferring to other store branches in your area? If you can't get promoted at the store you're at, do you think you could get promoted at another store? or would it be the same boss either way? Do any of the other store bosses have a reputation for rewarding effort? Or is yours the only branch around?

JDL

2015-02-11, 07:54 AM

If you're looking to shift overseas, try Australia! We're friendly folk down here and most of the wildlife doesn't kill you if you get the limb amputated fast enough.

Lifehacking is a pretty big hobby these days, and with good reason. We live in a society geared around consumption. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as consumer spending drives a country's economy, but it also creates a pit of perceived "needs" that we could actually live without.

Start with the basics. Does your family have a budget? If not, why not sit down with your wife and tally up every dollar you spent last month? I was pretty surprised when I looked at all the cash that went towards purchases we honestly didn't need.

Once you have identified where your cash is going, cut spending as much as you can afford. The food budget is a great starting point, but be sure to maintain a healthy diet as well. Sacrificing your body for cash will end up costing you more in the long run. Instead focus on whether you eat out. I looked at my daily $2.50 coffee and did the math: $650 a year down the drain. Now I drink the free instant coffee at work, and I don't miss it. Then look at your entertainment budget. Did you buy any movies this month? Go to the cinema? Purchase new books? Could you shift these into something that costs less and has added benefits like taking the kids to the park for some exercise or starting a hobby like gardening to shrink your grocery bill? I've bought tickets to the movies a total of one time in the last three years, as a gift to my wife on Valentine's Day. We don't own a TV, instead spending our time with our kids and cooking meals to avoid takeaway bills.

Take a solid look at your big bills. Focus on repaying any outstanding debts as quickly as possible. Compound interest will bury you in an early grave. I don't own a credit card. I use a debit card that lets me select the credit account for paying bills online, but it's always my money. The only debt my family has is our mortgage, and our budget allows us to pay it off within five to seven years from when we took it out. We've had to make some hard choices along the way to do this. My daughter, for example, was accepted into a private school that is near our home and also happens to be one of the highest ranked schools in the state. When we did the math however, we simply couldn't justify sending her there for the cost involved. She now attends a public school, but I don't believe I've made the wrong choice.

Get rid of things that cost you money to maintain. I'm just about to sell our second car right now. It costs us constant money to keep registered and serviced, and our family honestly doesn't need two cars any more. Look into public transport for getting to work. Both my wife and I agree that having a pet cat or dog would be great for the kids but a poor investment due to constant expenses.

Downsize your lifestyle. I still use a Nokia phone with honest-to-god actual buttons on the front. I'll keep using that phone until it breaks, which given their track record will probably occur somewhere around the time of the heat-death of the universe. I spend maybe somewhere in the range of $5 to $10 per month on my phone since I almost never use it to call people, instead calling from work or contacting them via email. I still fork out for an internet connection because it's an expense I can justify as necessary, but you can be damn sure I did a heck of a lot of research into the best possible deal for it, and made sure I wasn't spending too much for a plan I wouldn't use fully.

Count the cost of utilities. Switch all your lightbulbs to energy efficient models. Dry your clothes in the sun instead of the dryer. Switch off lights and unplug appliances. Remember that anything that creates heat is going to be the most expensive item you can run. Kettles, toasters, heaters, air conditioners, dryers and ovens all fit this bill. We're lucky that we live in an area of the world where solar power is extremely efficient, and most of the houses around us use rooftop panels to supplement their own supply. Whether you can use this depends on your location but even a small change in your power consumption can make a big difference to your bills.

Keep your ear to the ground for a better job. There's plenty of online websites that offer job listings and you can set up an email notification system to alert you to jobs that you'd qualify for. Threatening to leave your job if you don't get a raise may or may not work, but walking into your boss's office and saying "Company X has agreed to hire me starting next month at $Y wage, are you willing to beat their offer to convince me to stay?" is probably going to give you a better bargaining position. I did the same thing myself a little less than a year ago. I was working a steady job with good wage, but it wasn't getting us anywhere fast. I saw a position come available and I applied for it, got the job and about a 50% increase in my take home salary, not to mention a work car that I get full use of free of charge. This isn't the result of luck, it's perseverance. I was continually updating my resume, researching the local market thoroughly and I'd probably applied for dozens of other jobs that ended up going nowhere. The point is that there's plenty of fish in the sea, so keep trying and you'll catch one. It's also scary as hell to leave your comfort zone and step into a new job, but if you want the reward, you have to take a risk to get it.

pendell

2015-02-11, 02:04 PM

I just had someone stick this (http://beaspermdonor.com/) on my door. $100-150 for sperm donation doesn't sound too bad.

I won't do it , though. I'm of the camp that believes life begins at conception -- current fertility treatments will mean a lot more embryos being created than will be used, which means the rest would be destroyed.

Strange world, though.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Anarion

2015-02-11, 02:11 PM

Ain't that the truth. Failing upward seems to be an incredibly viable career path, and yet I can't figure out how to do it myself.

I have to brown-bag it every day. The important people eat out every day.

Yes. Mostly sales, activations, and troubleshooting though. And even though it's way outside the job description, they like to take advantage of my graphic design skills. Some of my designs were even used at a regional level.

Not sure if I'm allowed to comment on 2, but 1 is definitely true. I think I'm just too honest to be really effective at brown-nosing.

With some apologies, I'm going to be a bit critical. As you describe yourself here, you're looking at the people around you and thinking that they're idiots, incompetent, probably a little arrogant, and you say that you're too honest for your own good. I'm not surprised, with that combination, that nobody is promoting you.

Promotions are only a small part about your skill at your work. They're not (necessarily) about incompetence either. What they are about is being the kind of person that other people want to work with. Why don't you think you're one of the "important" people? You should be. It's not about brown-nosing either, it's about getting people to include you in their meetings, discussions, and ideas. Go out to lunch with them and order cheaply, or bring your brown-bag and apologize because you can't afford to eat out on what they're paying you but you really want hear what they have to say anyway.

And by the way, if the graphic design stuff isn't normally part of your job, why are you giving them that for free? Offer it again, only, y'know, not for free. It's a good argument for why you deserve a raise or a promotion.

Jay R

2015-02-11, 07:31 PM

There is a classic formula for moving up in a company.
1. Make yourself indispensable.
2. Make yourself dispensable.
3. Hire or train your replacement.

You have completed step one. But you cannot be promoted until you complete steps two and three.

Tyndmyr

2015-02-12, 05:30 PM

You don't have to give an ultimatum to your boss. Just be forthright and honest, and explain your financial situation. Highlight how much you love working there, but that due to your financial situation you are unsure if doing so is going to remain feasible.

Give him the opportunity to play the hero, and if they want you to stay, they will figure something out.

This is a better approach, yes. Ultimatums are confrontational, and can result in hard feelings even if they are "successful". A much more positive, problem solving approach treating the boss as an ally is MUCH better.

Thanks again, everyone. I really appreciate all the advice and positivity.

My main hobby is game design (video, table-top, board, card -- all kinds of games). I'm working on setting up a Patreon campaign to pursue that more.

That can be a money maker, though I warn you that it's not a particularly profitable industry most of the time. And you will need to narrow down your focus initially.

One good possibility to get started, is to take your marketable skills here, and focus on offering them to others in the field. You mentioned graphic design. Well, there's LOT of coders, board game designers, etc that have a big idea, some money, and no graphics skills. That's a good way to get some cred in the industry while also picking up a few bucks here and there.

With some apologies, I'm going to be a bit critical. As you describe yourself here, you're looking at the people around you and thinking that they're idiots, incompetent, probably a little arrogant, and you say that you're too honest for your own good. I'm not surprised, with that combination, that nobody is promoting you.

I agree. Honesty is not always a virtue. What the boss cares about is how well the office as a whole functions. This can be boiled down to "less problems for him". If you sell 10% more than guy #2, but guy #2 does not cause social disruptions due to uncomfortable truths, guy #2 is more useful to him, and will probably be promoted over you.

Being the person that people like is valuable. People spend a great deal of time at work, and true or not, dealing with conflict can be very tiresome.

The key is to make your boss WANT to promote you. You want him to believe that you, given more power, will make his life easier/better. It helps if others around you also believe that you'll do this. Usually, simply stating this will not be of help, you need to to be apparent without you needing to say a word. Social skills are of immense help here, but mostly, you want to cultivate a reputation as a problem solver: Someone people can come to with worries, and go away with their worries gone. Then, when they have bigger problems higher up, they'll pull you in to make those go away.

007_ctrl_room

2015-02-14, 10:41 PM

save your money, learn as much as you can about investing, and go from there. if you can think of a good business idea, then you have that as well, but at the very least with proper investing you can pretty much guarantee a nice retirement lifestyle once you want to call it a day come 60/70 years old.

Starwulf

2015-02-15, 03:44 AM

Food stamps are also hard to actually use for good food. Most people with them are in low enough spirits that the $8 chocolate bar is the only thing keeping them going.

This is the one thing in the OP's post that really bothers me. I'd love to get to meet the people he's seen that are buying $8 chocolate bars using food stamps, so I can figure out how the hell they are doing that while still feeding their family. I get <$400 from food stamps to feed my family(Myself, wife, 2 daughters), and let me tell you, me and my wife go without for the last week or so of every month. I make a LOT of trips to my parents house bumming sandwiches and what not just to stave off the hunger, because <$400 does NOT feed a family of four >< And forget about being healthy with that, if we tried to buy the fresh foods that are "good" for you, we would all be starving by week 2 of the freaking month. Hotdogs and Ramen for the most part for me and my wife, and just a step or two above that for my children.

Ifni

2015-02-15, 01:28 PM

This is the one thing in the OP's post that really bothers me. I'd love to get to meet the people he's seen that are buying $8 chocolate bars using food stamps, so I can figure out how the hell they are doing that while still feeding their family. I get <$400 from food stamps to feed my family(Myself, wife, 2 daughters), and let me tell you, me and my wife go without for the last week or so of every month. I make a LOT of trips to my parents house bumming sandwiches and what not just to stave off the hunger, because <$400 does NOT feed a family of four >< And forget about being healthy with that, if we tried to buy the fresh foods that are "good" for you, we would all be starving by week 2 of the freaking month. Hotdogs and Ramen for the most part for me and my wife, and just a step or two above that for my children.

This puzzles me a bit - I do most of my shopping at the closest grocery store, which is Wholefoods (often referred to as Whole Paycheck), and I do frequently indulge myself and buy the $8 chocolate bars and $30/pound imported cheese and fancy mushrooms, because it improves my quality of life and I can afford it without any significant impact on my savings (I'm fortunate enough to have a good job at the moment). I'm in an expensive metropolitan area, and I spend maybe $200/month on food for one adult; if I skipped the indulgences it'd be more like $130/month (roughly $30/week). $130*4 is considerably more than $400, yeah, but you get some savings from buying larger quantities, and I would think kids eat somewhat less than adults? (Depends on the age of the kids, of course.) Maybe I'm wrong about that, though, and I know kids can also be finicky about what they eat. Or maybe your local grocery stores are just more expensive? I'm vegetarian and I know that brings down my grocery budgets, but if you're stretching for cash, maybe cutting or reducing meat would be worth a look.

My general approach to meals is to cook on the weekend, refrigerate or freeze the results, and reheat on weekday evenings - cooking on weekday evenings is something I often don't feel like or have time for. As a single person, buying food in single-meal quantities isn't really possible (and expensive even when you can do it): buying food in quantities for a week is a lot more achievable. I make quite a lot of pasta dishes (store the pasta and sauce separately, combine and reheat the quantities you need for one meal, either in the microwave or on the stovetop), and quite a lot of lentil-based dishes. Tacos or burritos with beans and rice and veggies (and salsa and avocado), veggie-and-noodle stir-fries, and thai-style curries are also staples. Google is your friend for finding recipes. Breakfasts are usually either just an apple, or oats (bought in bulk) with milk and sometimes some fruit on the top (I'm really enjoying blueberries at the moment). Lunch is a sandwich with cheese and avocado, a bit of red pepper and some greens. Salads are a matter of "buy a bag of greens, grab a handful, chop some avocado into it, toss some oil and balsamic vinegar over it, eat". (Olive oil and balsamic vinegar are... hmm. They don't look cheap, if you get moderately good stuff you're probably looking at somewhere in the range of $5-10/bottle. But the bottles last for months, so if you like the flavors it is probably worth that one painful grocery bill. Likewise for spices, and cooking more generally - it is worth spending some money on basic supplies because once you've got them they'll last a long time, so the overall cost is not high. This can be hard if you literally cannot spare the money from your paycheck in any given month, though.)

Stuff I have in the pantry and use small amounts of on a week-to-week basis: salt, pepper, sugar, flour, olive oil, canola oil, balsamic vinegar, soy sauce, dried vegetable bouillon, assorted spices. Essential requirements for this approach are a fridge, a freezer, a stovetop, at least one good pot (more are better, so you can cook e.g. rice/pasta and a sauce simultaneously), and a stirrer (ladle/wooden spoon/etc).

This strategy probably works better for childless adults than for families with kids, depending on how finicky the kids are, but is almost certainly better for you than hotdogs and ramen and given the report above may actually be cheaper.

Example weekly grocery budget for myself:
-A couple of cups of oats from the bulk section (~$1) - they bulk up a lot when cooked
-1 quart of milk ($1.50)
-Punnet of blueberries ($5.00) - can reduce cost here by buying cheaper fruit, I just like blueberries
-Bag of pre-washed greens ($5.00) - can reduce cost here by buying a head of lettuce or whatever greens you want rather than a bag of pre-washed stuff
-Loaf of baked bread ($5.00) - can reduce cost here by buying somewhere other than Whole Paycheck, most likely
-Onion (<$1)
-Carrot (<$1)
-Can of diced tomatoes ($2)
-Pound of mushrooms ($1.50)
-2 pounds pasta ($2.00)
-Block of cheese ($4.00)
-Avocado ($2.00)

That's about $30, and note half that cost is coming from fresh bread + pre-washed greens + blueberries, all of which can be cut down considerably. Breakfasts are oats+milk+blueberries. Lunches are bread+cheese+avocado+greens. Dinners are pasta with a veggie sauce (the onion, carrot, mushrooms and tomatoes, augmented by the olive oil and veggie stock I have in my pantry), with cheese grated on top as a seasoning and greens and a bit of avocado on the side.

If your local grocery stores charge a lot more than this for staples - that's rough, and I am sorry :smallfrown:

SiuiS

2015-02-15, 01:56 PM

This is the one thing in the OP's post that really bothers me. I'd love to get to meet the people he's seen that are buying $8 chocolate bars using food stamps, so I can figure out how the hell they are doing that while still feeding their family. I get <$400 from food stamps to feed my family(Myself, wife, 2 daughters), and let me tell you, me and my wife go without for the last week or so of every month. I make a LOT of trips to my parents house bumming sandwiches and what not just to stave off the hunger, because <$400 does NOT feed a family of four >< And forget about being healthy with that, if we tried to buy the fresh foods that are "good" for you, we would all be starving by week 2 of the freaking month. Hotdogs and Ramen for the most part for me and my wife, and just a step or two above that for my children.

Depends on a lot of factors, really. When my own ran out, and they wanted to collect money from me for that last month where they gave me stamps and I "didn't earn them", I finally convinced them to just take the remaining stamps back, and still had a surplus.

I was able to make like, six gallons of stew for $50 usd, froze and refrigerated it, and it lasted a long time. But that wasn't a complete diet, either, despite my eating it four or five times a day. No citrus, fresh vitamins, none of it.

I think the problem is with what kids are willing to eat. No point buying lux goods when they rot on the shelf while the wee' screams "MAC! A! RONI!" Over and over... Part of why I'm puzzled at adults who don't eat foods out of preference instead of allergy or vom tendency; I ate what I had because being hungry sucked.

This puzzles me a bit - I do most of my shopping at the closest grocery store, which is Wholefoods (often referred to as Whole Paycheck), and I do frequently indulge myself and buy the $8 chocolate bars and $30/pound imported cheese and fancy mushrooms, because it improves my quality of life and I can afford it without any significant impact on my savings (I'm fortunate enough to have a good job at the moment). I'm in an expensive metropolitan area, and I spend maybe $200/month on food for one adult; if I skipped the indulgences it'd be more like $130/month (roughly $30/week). $130*4 is considerably more than $400, yeah, but you get some savings from buying larger quantities, and I would think kids eat somewhat less than adults? (Depends on the age of the kids, of course.) Maybe I'm wrong about that, though, and I know kids can also be finicky about what they eat. Or maybe your local grocery stores are just more expensive? I'm vegetarian and I know that brings down my grocery budgets, but if you're stretching for cash, maybe cutting or reducing meat would be worth a look.

This would be the first time I ever heard vegetarian being cheaper.

Children are weird. They eat a lot, just not at any one time. Children are a delicate balance of waste and want.

My general approach to meals is to cook on the weekend, refrigerate or freeze the results, and reheat on weekday evenings - cooking on weekday evenings is something I often don't feel like or have time for. As a single person, buying food in single-meal quantities isn't really possible (and expensive even when you can do it): buying food in quantities for a week is a lot more achievable. I make quite a lot of pasta dishes (store the pasta and sauce separately, combine and reheat the quantities you need for one meal, either in the microwave or on the stovetop), and quite a lot of lentil-based dishes. Tacos or burritos with beans and rice and veggies (and salsa and avocado), veggie-and-noodle stir-fries, and thai-style curries are also staples. Google is your friend for finding recipes. Breakfasts are usually either just an apple, or oats (bought in bulk) with milk and sometimes some fruit on the top (I'm really enjoying blueberries at the moment). Lunch is a sandwich with cheese and avocado, a bit of red pepper and some greens. Salads are a matter of "buy a bag of greens, grab a handful, chop some avocado into it, toss some oil and balsamic vinegar over it, eat". (Olive oil and balsamic vinegar are... hmm. They don't look cheap, if you get moderately good stuff you're probably looking at somewhere in the range of $5-10/bottle. But the bottles last for months, so if you like the flavors it is probably worth that one painful grocery bill. Likewise for spices, and cooking more generally - it is worth spending some money on basic supplies because once you've got them they'll last a long time, so the overall cost is not high. This can be hard if you literally cannot spare the money from your paycheck in any given month, though.)

Stuff I have in the pantry and use small amounts of on a week-to-week basis: salt, pepper, sugar, flour, olive oil, canola oil, balsamic vinegar, soy sauce, dried vegetable bouillon, assorted spices. Essential requirements for this approach are a fridge, a freezer, a stovetop, at least one good pot (more are better, so you can cook e.g. rice/pasta and a sauce simultaneously), and a stirrer (ladle/wooden spoon/etc).

This strategy probably works better for childless adults than for families with kids, depending on how finicky the kids are, but is almost certainly better for you than hotdogs and ramen and given the report above may actually be cheaper.

Example weekly grocery budget for myself:
-A couple of cups of oats from the bulk section (~$1) - they bulk up a lot when cooked
-1 quart of milk ($1.50)
-Punnet of blueberries ($5.00) - can reduce cost here by buying cheaper fruit, I just like blueberries
-Bag of pre-washed greens ($5.00) - can reduce cost here by buying a head of lettuce or whatever greens you want rather than a bag of pre-washed stuff
-Loaf of baked bread ($5.00) - can reduce cost here by buying somewhere other than Whole Paycheck, most likely
-Onion (<$1)
-Carrot (<$1)
-Can of diced tomatoes ($2)
-Pound of mushrooms ($1.50)
-2 pounds pasta ($2.00)
-Block of cheese ($4.00)
-Avocado ($2.00)

That's about $30, and note half that cost is coming from fresh bread + pre-washed greens + blueberries, all of which can be cut down considerably. Breakfasts are oats+milk+blueberries. Lunches are bread+cheese+avocado+greens. Dinners are pasta with a veggie sauce (the onion, carrot, mushrooms and tomatoes, augmented by the olive oil and veggie stock I have in my pantry), with cheese grated on top as a seasoning and greens and a bit of avocado on the side.

If your local grocery stores charge a lot more than this for staples - that's rough, and I am sorry :smallfrown:

Hmm. That's all god ideas, but paradoxically would go to waste. I don't think I could actually eat a lot of that. Avacado and cheese sandwhich? With peppers? That rolls my tummy without me even tasting it :v

That's the problem. Poverty is inherited. Children enjoy and can stomach the foods they are exposed to en utero and during infancy through breastmilk and small bites. I don't like avacado because my mother didn't eat any because she didn't like avacado because... It perpetuates. You can break through some of it – I eat avacado when I can! – but some you can't. Mushrooms and olives are just not going to stay in my GI tract long enough to be nutritious. Tomatoes need to be cooked to a certain degree or else the same. Lima beans need to die in nuclear fire, even their powdery smell sends me from the room.

That's a lot of the basics I can't have. That is, unfortunately, really common. ._.

The Second

2015-02-15, 02:02 PM

Please repeat after me.

There is nothing wrong with being poor.

One more time. Now take a deep breath, relax, and read.

I work for a worldwide department store chain as a cashier. It's a job I am exceptionally skilled at, and a job that I love.

Wait, you say, how is one exceptional at cashiering? It's all in the smile, the attitude, the friendly banter. Cashiering is the only job where you can have a meaningful three minute conversation with five dozen people a day.

Not only do I run a register, though. I also stock shelves, gather carts, carry purchases out to customer's cars. I sweep and mop, I even do windows.

More than once the store manager has mentioned that, if I were willing, he would promote me. I have declined his offer on two occasions, and have even had to ask that he not ask me to cover the service desk any longer, even though it means more hours and higher pay.

My daughter turns seventeen this year. To her credit, she doesn't mind being poor either. We shop at the pawn shops for jewelry and electronics; when she asked for a PS3, I managed to talk her into my old PS2 with a promise that we'd go shop for a PS3 once tax season came around. I just picked one up last week, second hand, for a third of the cost of a new one. We shop for clothes at the second hand store. The only thing we really splurge on is shoes and underwear. She has a part time job after school, running a register at a convenience store. Half of her paycheck goes into a savings account, the rest she can do with as she pleases; I am proud that she helps cover our monthly food budget.

True, I did have my grandfather to watch my daughter when I was at work while she was small, so I didn't have to worry about child care. But still, at that time, I was working two jobs and was on food stamps. But I still cut costs as mush as I could; used washable diapers instead of disposables, mixed baby food in the blender instead of buying the bottled stuff (which tastes terrible anyway), and got most of her clothes from my aunt in the form of my cousin's hand me downs (thankfully my aunt has four daughters and is a pack rat, and while the style may have been dated, the clothes where (and mostly, are) still in excellent condition).

My Dad and I hunt, and he is an avid outdoorsman (and to some extent, my daughter is as well), my Dad also has a garden in his front yard. We eat deer steaks, pork sausage, and pork roast, all for the cost of a few rifle rounds. We never want for potatoes, onions, squash, or tomatoes, when they're in season.

My neighbor works at a meat packing plant and, from time to time, the company gives him meat to take home. He, in turn, gives some to me. I mow his lawn every now and again, just to say thanks.

I'll never be a manager at my store. When my daughter gets her first car, it will probably be a ten year old model with rust on the fenders and a sagging suspension. I'll never have more than a thousand dollars in my savings. But we are happy and we are healthy. And isn't that all that matters?

SiuiS

2015-02-15, 02:21 PM

The problem with being poor is that being happy and being healthy are harder.

How do you afford bullets? It's not a struggle to get the gas to go out hunting? You have a house with a lawn? Poor was is relative. No one is saying a monetary amount defines your objective worth. But look at all the assets you have; well stocked pantry, stable and lux housing, enough spare jingle to actually go to pawn shops... We're focusig on money because when $5 a month will break you, fixing the whole money situation is how you most easily get those self-same assets.

Poor isn't a factor of money. It's a factor f what we want that money for. I would gladly be monetarily poor and live off the land. What I want is a roof, healthy food, and security for my family. Money jut happens to be, pardon, the currency of those things. Saving here and there, gettig that security without stress, is the feat step to that independence.

The Second

2015-02-15, 02:36 PM

You miss the point. Don't try to go it alone. You need to rely on people. If I didn't have my father, then yes, I would be forced into a job I don't enjoy. If I didn't have my aunt, my daughter wouldn't have had the nice clothes. If I hadn't had my grandfather, I may have had to take on a third job to cover the expense of child care. If I didn't have my neighbor, we'd be spending quite a lot more money on food each month.

If you can't afford your current situation, if you find yourself at the door of actually having to live on the street, and god forbid it ever happens, that is not time to call the family and say, 'I need help.' The time is now.

I speak from experience. Had I not picked up the phone, then my daughter and I would not be sharing this three room camper trailer in my dad's front lawn. (I do, by the way, pay rent ($500) and electricity for the privilege). The (slowly accumulating) money in the bank is to purchase a portion of his property. Maybe someday I'll feel the need to take out a loan to move an actual house onto the land. Maybe not.

If, however, you don't have family then I am sorry.

Ah, and to address the notion of 'having the jingle' to shop at the pawn shop, on birthdays I feel the need to splurge a bit and buy us something nice. Once or twice a year thing, you know? 'Cause when you're on a shoe string budget, it's nice to have nice things every once in a while.

SiuiS

2015-02-15, 04:31 PM

Not going it alone is what's happening; we on the Internet are here, and we are offering the data and skills necessary to make connections in Proximal space. I was more addressing the tone of 'being poor isn't bad'. Of course the goodness or badness of being poor is subjective. But we have the information we need already; security, safety, shelter, nutrition and hygiene are already at their limit. But more importantly is the issue, not of money, but of dreams.

The OP is distressed because he feels he was fed a false ideal, and got to watch people who did everything wrong get ahead while his sticking to his guns and beig a good, hard working and moral person has actively kept him down. At this point, who cares about money? I'm trying to recontextualize enough to save a man's soul.

Starwulf

2015-02-15, 08:58 PM

This puzzles me a bit - I do most of my shopping at the closest grocery store, which is Wholefoods (often referred to as Whole Paycheck), and I do frequently indulge myself and buy the $8 chocolate bars and $30/pound imported cheese and fancy mushrooms, because it improves my quality of life and I can afford it without any significant impact on my savings (I'm fortunate enough to have a good job at the moment). I'm in an expensive metropolitan area, and I spend maybe $200/month on food for one adult; if I skipped the indulgences it'd be more like $130/month (roughly $30/week). $130*4 is considerably more than $400, yeah, but you get some savings from buying larger quantities, and I would think kids eat somewhat less than adults? (Depends on the age of the kids, of course.) Maybe I'm wrong about that, though, and I know kids can also be finicky about what they eat. Or maybe your local grocery stores are just more expensive? I'm vegetarian and I know that brings down my grocery budgets, but if you're stretching for cash, maybe cutting or reducing meat would be worth a look.

Just to quickly address, I'm actually pretty sure my 11 year and 6 year old daughters eat more then I do on most days, especially the 11 year old, I think she's beginning to enter the "My stomach is a bottomless hole" phase >< Also, yeah, food might be more expensive here, Wal-Mart is universally the best option but I also live a solid 45 minutes away from the nearest one. Sometimes I watch those "extreme couponing" shows, and just wish and wish ever so hard that we had stores that gave out as many coupons as these people seem to collect. My dad buys like 3 separate newspapers every Sunday and gives me the coupon inserts, and I'm lucky if I can find even a dozen useable coupons in a months time, which honestly doesn't save much.

Naturally me and my wife make meals that last more then one day. Chili, Vegetable soup, Spaghetti, Meatloaf, Roast Beef(when the meat for it is on sale, otherwise it's wickedly expensive). But that really only covers supper, can't eat stuff like that for Breakfast, and if you've ever dealt with kids, trying to get them to eat the same thing twice in the same day is not happening, so have to find something else for lunch as well(thankfully School covers Lunch during the school year). Of course, there is also the issue of getting them to EAT what we make, our youngest is going to end up Vegetarian, I am damn sure of it, she hates anything to do with meat for the most part. The occasional cheeseburger from McDonalds and that's about it.

I wish there was a food warehouse kind of place around here that didn't cost X amount of hundreds of dollars just to join for a year, and took food stamps. The only one within a 60 mile radius is Sams Club, but you can only get a membership if you pay like $300 a year, or are part of a company that does business with them.

Trust me when I say that me and my wife have explored just about every option possible to make our food money stretch as far as possible. It's those things that allow us to get by as well as we do. That and my parents not minding me coming over to raid their fridge(plus they'll usually go buy a bag or two of "snacky" stuff for the kids every month, ie: Chips, granola bars, Cereal, milk, bologna & cheese). Hell I think it's safe to say that if I didn't have my parents, me and my wife would probably be stick figure thin and dying at this point, LOL.

RedCloakLives!

2015-02-15, 09:20 PM

...For the record, I work for a wireless (cell phone) retailer. My spouse is a pharmacy tech.

Lots of good discussion upthread, from all points of the compass. I am impressed by the people here. But not surprised -- the Order of the Stick -- its art, sophistication, complexity, and depth attract thoughtful people. Here is my offering:

Spouse becomes a pharmacist. Is your spouse willing to go back to school to be a Pharmacist? Some years back, supposedly there was a shortage of pharmacists; I don't know what the situation is now. They will be paid a lot more than a tech. A lot. I realize there's the kid and lack of funds; but those are the challenges. Of course, if your spouse hates it, don't do it.

Wireless retailer: in retail storefront operations in general, the only people making decent money are owners and managers, and maybe not even then. I don't know wireless at all, but I will toss out a couple of ideas that may inspire other ideas. Going with what you've said:

Create a Position:

And I'm darn good at it too. ... Mostly sales, activations, and troubleshooting though.
How is training done? Are you that good, and is everyone else mediocre? Can you be the Chief Trainer and make everyone good? You'd campaign for a new or additional job title, more money, etc. If you succeed, you eventually become regional trainer, VP for training, etc. Even if you failed, but did end up training people for no additional benefit, one of your trainees could later pull you up. Or out.

Create a Title:

they like to take advantage of my graphic design skills. Some of my designs were even used at a regional level.
See if you can get "Graphic Designer" (or similar) added as a job title. Officially. Maybe/probably no extra pay, but it might help your resume. I say Officially, so that if someone calls up HR when checking your references, it shows up. May or may not be practical. Food for thought.

I've seen things like these done in other workplaces. I don't know anything about yours, but I suspect it would be tougher to pull off.

Move your Expertise:
Some organizations will have someone that deals with all the comm/data/phone/computer stuff. Can you be that person? Others outsource it; can you get onboard with a service provider? Are patch panels your thing? Do you have the aptitude for it? The pay would probably be higher than front line retail.

Switch Industries:
As others have mentioned. Or work for a better retailer.

Reduce rent. Move back in with the 'rents; or pool resources with friends.

Philosophical issues: To put what others have said in DnD terms, your alignment is Good; OK, we all approve. But in the workplace, learning how to think like a CN (while still being G, and treating people decently), can be useful. After all, your first loyalty is to your spouse and kid, not the job, which is merely a place of employment.

Grinner

2015-02-15, 09:30 PM

Sometimes I watch those "extreme couponing" shows, and just wish and wish ever so hard that we had stores that gave out as many coupons as these people seem to collect. My dad buys like 3 separate newspapers every Sunday and gives me the coupon inserts, and I'm lucky if I can find even a dozen useable coupons in a months time, which honestly doesn't save much.

There's one little catch to those shows. The people in them frequently travel hours to get to the stores, and they spend a great deal of time crawling through dumpsters to collect their coupons. The amount of effort they put into shopping almost constitutes a full-time job on top of their actual full-time jobs.

SiuiS

2015-02-16, 03:07 AM

se kind of place around here that didn't cost X amount of hundreds of dollars just to join for a year, and took food stamps. The only one within a 60 mile radius is Sams Club, but you can only get a membership if you pay like $300 a year, or are part of a company that does business with them.

Trust me when I say that me and my wife have explored just about every option possible to make our food money stretch as far as possible. It's those things that allow us to get by as well as we do. That and my parents not minding me coming over to raid their fridge(plus they'll usually go buy a bag or two of "snacky" stuff for the kids every month, ie: Chips, granola bars, Cereal, milk, bologna & cheese). Hell I think it's safe to say that if I didn't have my parents, me and my wife would probably be stick figure thin and dying at this point, LOL.

Piggyback! The best way to get stuff from, say, Costco is to have a friend who has a membership. If there's anyone you know or in your family that can get you in, try going with them? Don't know about EBT, though. Which is frankly ridiculous and actively offends me; it's supposed to be legal tender for food after all.

Nepenthe

2015-02-16, 01:31 PM

Hey, everyone. Sorry for my absence; I haven't had a lot of computer time lately, and most of the time I've had has been used working on my resume and the game I'm going to use to launch that Patreon.

First let me clarify what I meant by "I'm too honest for my own good." I was brought up firmly in the "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" camp. So I don't go around telling people they're stupid or that their ideas are terrible. I've also been taught to respect authority. So if a higher up asks me to do something I think is stupid, I will politely do as I'm told, try to find a way to make it work, and offer my opinions on how it could be improved. What I can't do is praise it as a brilliant plan that could only have been thought of by a true genius and how did we ever run a company before you had this glorious idea (I've tried, I'm a bad actor)!

As per a suggestion earlier in this thread, I did some research on what other people in my position with my experience are earning. Where I fall on the percentile curve is laughable. I brought these statics along with the amounts I'm not getting for freelance graphic design to my store manger today. I explained my situation with child care, gave him the numbers and threw myself at his mercy. He offered me... absolutely nothing. Zero raise (if I give one to you everyone's going to come asking for one). I asked if I could work four 10 hour days. Nope (if I let you I have to let everyone). I told him I couldn't offer graphic design for free in the future and he would have to pay me my freelance prices. He laughed at me. Laughed :smallfurious:. It was all I could do to maintain my composure. I still need a letter of recommendation from him after all.

So I need a new job. I'm a little relieved and a lot terrified.

Grinner

2015-02-16, 02:07 PM

So I need a new job. I'm a little relieved and a lot terrified.

You've done research and brought it to your manager. While he did turn you down, you at least now have some measure of clarity in regard to your future. Clarity isn't an easy thing to come by.

I think you're doing quite well.

SiuiS

2015-02-16, 02:26 PM

In the future, when a manager tries to brush you off with "I would have to give that to everyone", say no sir, only the qualified people. I'm not asking for a hand out, I'm asking for what I deserve.

Winter_Wolf

2015-02-16, 02:59 PM

I wish there was a food warehouse kind of place around here that didn't cost X amount of hundreds of dollars just to join for a year, and took food stamps. The only one within a 60 mile radius is Sams Club, but you can only get a membership if you pay like $300 a year, or are part of a company that does business with them.

Man if that's what Sam's Club is charging folk over your way, I feel for you. I mean that. But you might want to check into that again, the closest one of them to where my family lives requires substantially less per year (although it's over an hour away on the highway and a pain in the rear to get to in any case). Less than $100, if I recall.

Then again I have a Costco practically in my back yard and would be stupid to drive farther than that because in my case whatever pennies I might save by going would be completely outweighed by the cost of gas.

As to moving to China for "a better life", speaking as someone who went over there to study, live, and work for several years: DON'T DO IT. Unless you have a company sending you over there on their dime, do not do it. Going from the US to China to look for a higher standard of living, especially when you are married and have kids, is just the opposite of what you'd want to do.

Douglas

2015-02-16, 03:43 PM

So I need a new job. I'm a little relieved and a lot terrified.
At least you know positions you're qualified for with far better pay are out there, now.:smallsmile:

Time to prepare a resume and fire up some job search sites. The web sites that immediately come to mind for me are monster.com and linkedin.com, but I'm sure there are plenty more, some of them possibly specific to certain industries.

Do some research, post your resume where companies can find and contact you, apply for jobs on top of that, brush up on interview skills, and above all be persistent and don't give up. It is highly likely that you will have a bunch of interviews that end up going nowhere. Don't let this get to you; keep trying, and eventually someone will hire you with a more reasonable salary. In the mean time, keep your current job until your new one is officially accepted and sealed with signed paperwork, and keep in mind that any decent place to work will make allowances for the fact that your current employment puts constraints on when you're available to interview.

madtinker

2015-02-16, 06:17 PM

That is a pretty terrifying realization, but it sounds like you're qualified and prepared. Good luck on your job search!

Closet_Skeleton

2015-02-20, 07:42 PM

For making a little extra money, there's always the option (if it's doable, obviously) to convert your hobby in an income source.
For example, if you're into Warhammer (Fantasy or 40K), you can paint and assemble minis, and sell 'em on Ebay... there's a very active market on that kind of subject.

No, you can not get money that way. Prices for painted figures are lower than unpainted figures because people only buy painted figures because they're looking for cheap second hand ones rather than new in box ones.

If you want to earn money off painting you have to paint other people's figures they've bought for themselves.

I knew a guy who sold all his models every now and again and started from scratch. He knew what he was doing and never made money, just got enough to help start again. If it was an actual business then with the amount of work he put in he'd be losing £1000s each time.

But seriously, US companies have too many managers.

Pretty much everywhere is like that.

Eh, there aren't exactly many places out there were some stranger/newcomer can leave easier and wealthier than in USA, or at least some places in US.

Cost of living is what matters, not money which is basically relative.

Getting hired has absolutely nothing to do with qualifications or work ethic and everything to do with knowing the right people. Since all the important people I know work for the same company I already work for, getting out seems nigh impossible.

Sometimes people get lucky with connections through seemingly unimportant people.

I don't know if you have a big family but there might be angles that aren't immediately obvious.

Nepenthe

2015-02-20, 10:17 PM

I picked up some freelance work today. I'll be designing some packaging for a local small business. It's not much, but I'll still count it as a win.

Flickerdart

2015-02-20, 10:31 PM

I picked up some freelance work today. I'll be designing some packaging for a local small business. It's not much, but I'll still count it as a win.
Have you been maintaining an online portfolio? It will be immensely helpful for finding future design work, even if it's just on LinkedIn or something.

mrcarter11

2015-02-22, 04:07 PM

There actually is a good bit of positive suggestions here.
I know I can't offer much in the way of advice, since I kinda sit on the other side of the table from you, but for what it's worth, do you live anywhere in the D.C. area?

Nepenthe

2015-02-23, 11:03 AM

Again, thanks to everyone for all the positive thoughts. It really does help.

What is your actual degree in?Art History. Yup. Definitely a member of the "go to college, I don't care what for" generation.

I just had someone stick this (http://beaspermdonor.com/) on my door. $100-150 for sperm donation doesn't sound too bad.Aside from ethical concerns, I hate the idea that there could be offspring of mine at some point in the future that I will never meet.

save your money, learn as much as you can about investing, and go from there. if you can think of a good business idea, then you have that as well, but at the very least with proper investing you can pretty much guarantee a nice retirement lifestyle once you want to call it a day come 60/70 years old.Yeah, I wish I knew the value of investing earlier in life. Over the last couple years I've been trying to buy a bit, but it's hard too make money without money.

I get <$400 from food stamps to feed my family(Myself, wife, 2 daughters), and let me tell you, me and my wife go without for the last week or so of every month.I've always been told that food stamps were meant to supplement a food budget, not replace it. Clearly the people who do that are getting money from other sources while still qualifying for the food stamps. That's the part that bugs me. For what it's worth, $400 is more than I can budget for food now. Not sure if that's going to get better or worse when we switch from formula to solid foods.

Please repeat after me.

There is nothing wrong with being poor.Oh, I know. I've always been poor. I'm not trying to get rich here, I'm just trying to get by.

Spouse becomes a pharmacist. Is your spouse willing to go back to school to be a Pharmacist? Some years back, supposedly there was a shortage of pharmacists; I don't know what the situation is now. They will be paid a lot more than a tech. A lot. I realize there's the kid and lack of funds; but those are the challenges. Of course, if your spouse hates it, don't do it. We've been trying to do this for awhile, but we haven't been able to find the time or money. Both of those are in even shorter supply now.

As to moving to China for "a better life", speaking as someone who went over there to study, live, and work for several years: DON'T DO IT. Unless you have a company sending you over there on their dime, do not do it. Going from the US to China to look for a higher standard of living, especially when you are married and have kids, is just the opposite of what you'd want to do.Yeah, I really don't see myself leaving the states anytime soon.

Have you been maintaining an online portfolio? It will be immensely helpful for finding future design work, even if it's just on LinkedIn or something.I haven't been, but I plan to start. Before I just did the graphic design for fun or to help out friends. Now that it might be making up a larger percentage of my income, I need to take it more seriously.

There actually is a good bit of positive suggestions here.
I know I can't offer much in the way of advice, since I kinda sit on the other side of the table from you, but for what it's worth, do you live anywhere in the D.C. area?Nope. Midwest.

danzibr

2015-02-23, 02:22 PM

Huh.

After reading the (majority of the) thread, I have a thing or two to say.

A couple years ago I was a grad student, teaching as much as I could to make money. My wife and I had 2 cars, a nice house and 2 kids. And the debt got worse and worse each month. Today we're okay financially. A couple things we did (which may not be feasible) were to sell a car and move to a smaller, cheaper house.

We qualify for food stamps but don't use them. We probably should start. I think the idea is to use government help when you're poor, and if/when you get rich, you pay it back.

Oh, and we were paying ~$140 per month for our phones, now it's $24.

Errata

2015-02-23, 03:14 PM

Cost of living is what matters, not money which is basically relative.

Well yes, but you have to be very careful in how you go about calculating that. There are indexes of purchasing power parity that try to factor in these variable costs, but even when you factor those things in, it's still rare that the average individual in a poor country has the same or greater standard of living than their counterpart in a wealthy country. Standard of living is not directly proportional to absolute income, but there's still a pretty good correlation there.

It's a truly global economy these days. Many, many things are commodities that can be shipped halfway around the world if they're even slightly more expensive one place than another, until the price is very nearly balanced out. Some costs of living are relative, but others aren't. If you have a much lower absolute income/cost of living, then things produced and distributed globally that are not relative in price will be totally out of your reach.

Real estate costs are some of the most highly variable and relative, because you can't pick up and ship land. But even there, things like construction materials are commodities. Places with extremely cheap housing in the US are often aging housing stock that wears down if the local economy is too depressed to support proper maintenance. Places with extremely cheap housing globally are often very simple and lacking modern conveniences that we take for granted in the US. It's not always an apples to apples comparison to say that the cost of living is much cheaper in another country if they're also at a lower standard and you're sacrificing many advantages to the more expensive housing to achieve that lower price.