Order of the Bow Initiate entry

[Invader]

I'm gonna take two level of OotBI at 6th and I think my entry so far is going to be Ranger 2\fighter 2\X 1.

Is there a better choice for my 5th lvl other than Ranger or fighter?

[WeaselGuy]

Well, Ranger 3 gets you Endurance as a bonus feat, Fighter 3 lets you pick your bonus feat from the list of available Fighter Feats. I would opt for Fighter. Which also raises the question, did you take the Hit and Run Tactics ACF from Drow of the Underdark for your Fighter at level 1? Swap out Heavy Armor and Tower Shield Proficiency in favor of adding Dexterity Modifier to damage versus Flat-Footed opponents.

[Invader]

Well, Ranger 3 gets you Endurance as a bonus feat, Fighter 3 lets you pick your bonus feat from the list of available Fighter Feats. I would opt for Fighter. Which also raises the question, did you take the Hit and Run Tactics ACF from Drow of the Underdark for your Fighter at level 1? Swap out Heavy Armor and Tower Shield Proficiency in favor of adding Dexterity Modifier to damage versus Flat-Footed opponents.

I didn't but I'll certainly look into them.

Fighter 3 doesn't really offer anything though. I was under the impression that Ranger 3 was better. It looked like better skills and endurance vs very slightly better saves and hps?

Those two aside though, are there any other full BaB classes good for a 1 lvl dip?

[Nightraiderx]

Fighter 3 doesn't have a bonus feat. only fighter 1 is the odd feat.

What books are available? are we assuming 3.5 only or pf as well?

Rokugan ninja is a good level, you get a dodge bonus, 1d6 sneak attack and full bab.

This also allows you to take craven so your can stack Sneak attack and the accurate shot ability for Order of the Bow.

edit: partially swordsage'd by the OP

[Baxter Konrad]

If you can, try to meet the prereqs using Scout. Scout + OotBI are amazing mobile close-quarter archers. Move 10ft, fire one arrow, empty a bucket of dice onto the table.

[Troacctid]

If you can, try to meet the prereqs using Scout. Scout + OotBI are amazing mobile close-quarter archers. Move 10ft, fire one arrow, empty a bucket of dice onto the table.

Eh, they're not that amazing, since Order of the Bow Initiate is just rather underpowered in general. But they do have good synergy, and Ranger 2/Scout 4 is a solid entry.

[WeaselGuy]

Yeah, I just realized I was completely wrong about Fighter 3, disregard. Also, the biggest problem with Scout is the BAB requirement for OotBI. Scout doesn't hit BAB 5 until level 7. If you do Scout 3/Ranger 3, you can take Swift Hunter, allowing Ranger and Scout levels to stack for Favored Enemy and Skirmish bonuses, but it is significantly better to then take Ranger the rest of the way to 20. It can still add a nice little "oomph" to your OotBI though, if you can stomach delaying entry another level. Then finish the last 4 levels with more Ranger.

[Darrin]

I'm gonna take two level of OotBI at 6th and I think my entry so far is going to be Ranger 2\fighter 2\X 1.


Could you explain why you want OotBI? Popular opinion around here is the 3.5 version is a snotbucket full of fail.



Is there a better choice for my 5th lvl other than Ranger or fighter?

Barbarian 1 with the Whirling Frenzy ACF from Unearthed Arcana is good for a 1-level dip. One level of Warblade or Crusader could add some interesting options for an archer. Cloistered Cleric dip to pick up Knowledge and Travel Devotion is also frequently recommended.

[DEMON]

If Ranger and Fighter were my only option to get to OotBI I'd go Ranger 4 / Fighter 1 (Hit-and-Run Tactics, and maybe also Sneak Attack ACFs for the Fighter).

Ranger 2 / Scout 4 is also a decent option and syngergizes well.

However, bear in mind that OotBI itself is a rather sucky PrC, even for a dedicated archer.

Also, Close Combat Shot can be imitated by a 1st level Rgr/Sor/Wiz spell and Ranged Precision is just meh (at level six you're better off firing 2-3 arrows at your enemy as a full round attack instead).

[WeaselGuy]

I actually just finished a rather nice (in my opinion) archer build, if you'd like, I can put it in a table and post if for your perusal. Doesn't use OotBI, uses Justice of Weald and Woe instead. Also requires 16 Int and makes good use of Dexterity and Strength (for composite longbow), so you have to be a little MAD.

[DEMON]

I actually just finished a rather nice (in my opinion) archer build, if you'd like, I can put it in a table and post if for your perusal. Doesn't use OotBI, uses Justice of Weald and Woe instead. Also requires 16 Int and makes good use of Dexterity and Strength (for composite longbow), so you have to be a little MAD.

Do share, please. I'm always interested in archery builds (and it's always nice to see JoWaW featured in a build).

[Invader]

If Ranger and Fighter were my only option to get to OotBI I'd go Ranger 4 / Fighter 1 (Hit-and-Run Tactics, and maybe also Sneak Attack ACFs for the Fighter).

Ranger 2 / Scout 4 is also a decent option and syngergizes well.

However, bear in mind that OotBI itself is a rather sucky PrC, even for a dedicated archer.

Also, Close Combat Shot can be imitated by a 1st level Rgr/Sor/Wiz spell and Ranged Precision is just meh (at level six you're better off firing 2-3 arrows at your enemy as a full round attack instead).

I was dipping it specifically for close combat shot actually.

[DEMON]

I was dipping it specifically for close combat shot actually.

Arrow Mind - Complete Adventurer / Spell Compendium. Long enough duration to keep you covered the for the whole fight. Immediate action to cast. Also allows you to threaten targets within your normal melee reach.

Alternative - elvencraft bow - doubles as a club/quarterstaff, so allows you to threaten within melee range. You still provoke if you use it as a ranged weapon when threatened.

[Invader]

Arrow Mind - Complete Adventurer / Spell Compendium. Long enough duration to keep you covered the for the whole fight. Immediate action to cast. Also allows you to threaten targets within your normal melee reach.

Alternative - elvencraft bow - doubles as a club/quarterstaff, so allows you to threaten within melee range. You still provoke if you use it as a ranged weapon when threatened.

Yeah I messed around with builds that have arrow mind but I havent found one I like yet.

Edit* Im trying to stay away from as much precision damage as I can if at all possible.

[DEMON]

Yeah I messed around with builds that have arrow mind but I havent found one I like yet.

Ranger 1 with a wand.

[Riculf]

There is rather a lot of "dislike" of OotBI and belief that it is "made of fail". Personally, I've found it to be a good choice to overcome higher DR's due to significant one-shot damage, coupled with feats that allow you to frequently get back into cover (Shot on the Run). It may not stack up to the Multishot demons however they can run into problems on the DR front if they're not careful. :smallbiggrin:

[Baxter Konrad]

Eh, they're not that amazing, since Order of the Bow Initiate is just rather underpowered in general. But they do have good synergy, and Ranger 2/Scout 4 is a solid entry.

Meh, optimisation isn't everything. I had a concept for a class using Scout/OotBI and maybe some Rogue to produce a character who specialised in throwing knives (since OotBI doesn't specify you have to be using a bow, just that you need to be proficient with one - and you can potentially wave that with DM's consent). I've also seen straight OotBI builds that were pretty fun to have around the table.

[WeaselGuy]

Here's that JoWaW build. It also takes a 14 Wisdom to pull off the Ranger Spells you get.




Level
Class
Class Features
Feats


1
Fighter
Bonus Feat, Hit & Run Tactics
Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow)


2
Fighter
Bonus Feat
Precise Shot


3
Fighter
-
Bowslinger


4
Fighter
Bonus Feat
Weapon Specialization (Longbow)


5
Ranger
Favored Enemy (Humans), Track, Wild Empathy
-


6
Ranger
Combat Style (Archery)
Rapid Shot


7
Justice of Weald & Woe
Spells
-


8
Justice of Weald & Woe
Bonus Feat, Woodland Stride
Improved Precise Shot


9
Justice of Weald & Woe
Sneak Attack +1d6
Ranged Weapon Mastery


10
Justice of Weald & Woe
Lucky Shot, Trackless Step
-


11
Justice of Weald & Woe
Poison Use
-


12
Justice of Weald & Woe
Steady Hand
Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)


13
Justice of Weald & Woe
Sneak Attack +2d6
-


14
Justice of Weald & Woe
Bonus Feat
Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow)


15
Justice of Weald & Woe
Hide in Plain Sight
Manyshot


16
Justice of Weald & Woe
Death Attack, Immunity to Poison
-


17
Fighter
-
-


18
Fighter
Bonus Feat
Deadeye Shot, Improved Rapid Shot


19
Fighter
-
-


20
Fighter
Bonus Feat
Ranged Weapon Supremacy





The basic premise is that JoWaW stacks with Fighter to qualify for Fighter Bonus Feats, letting you nab Weapon Supremacy. It uses the 2 levels of Ranger for the skill points and still nets you Rapid Shot as a bonus feat. Bowslinger nets you a +2 to attack versus flat-footed opponents, and Deadeye Shot lets you delay your attack until the moment an ally of yours attacks. If the ally hits, then you get to treat the enemy as dex-denied.

You pretty much want to put your first 3 levels of points into Craft (Bowmaking), Knowledge (Nature), Hide, Move Silently and Survival. (4, 2, 2, 2, 2 respectively, then 5, 2.5, 2.5, 2.5, 2.5, then 6, 3, 3, 3, 3, then 7, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4. That 4 can be in pretty much anything you want, I would probably do Intimidate. Use the next 2 levels (of Ranger) to bring those scores up to 8, 8, 5, 8, 8, the 5 being in Knowledge for the Synergy bonus, and retaining the 4 in Intimidate. I didn't look at skills for JaWoW, or the last 4 levels of Fighter, but you probably want to keep putting points in Hide and Move Silently, and probably would want to invest in Spot, Listen and maybe Search.)

[Khedrac]

As for the original build, I went Ranger 2 Barbarian 2 Hexblade 1 - for the will save bonus and the hexblade's curse as something they might roll a 1 against, so for your build I think I would still recommend Hexblade for the +2 to will saves.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If you're worried about precision damage due to the ever present immunities, Swift Hunter has you covered. The feat allows for your skirmish damage to apply against favored enemies, meaning being racist against undead doesn't stop them from saying no to buckets of d6s.

[DEMON]

Here's that JoWaW build. It also takes a 14 Wisdom to pull off the Ranger Spells you get.

Nice, here's mine:




Level
Class
Class Features
Feats


1
Ranger 1
Favored Enemy (Arcanists), Track, Wild Empathy
Point Blank Shot


2
Ranger 2
Combat Style (Archery)
Rapid Shot (B)


3
Ranger 3
Endurance
Precise Shot


4
Ranger 4
Animal Comanion
-


5
Fighter 1
Bonus Feat, Hit & Run Tactics
Weapon Focus (Longbow)


6
Fighter 2
Resolute
Woodland Archer


7
Justice of Weald & Woe 1
Spells
-


8
Justice of Weald & Woe 2
Bonus Feat, Woodland Stride
Weapon Specialization (Longbow)


9
Justice of Weald & Woe 2
Sneak Attack +1d6
Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)


10
Ranger 5
2nd favored enemy
-


11
Ranger 6
Improved combat style (Archery)
Manyshot (B)


12
Ranger 7
Woodland stride
FEAT


13
Ranger 8
Swift tracker
-


14
Ranger 9
Evasion
-


15
Ranger 10
3rd favored enemy
FEAT


16
Ranger 11
Combat style mastery (Archery)
Improved Precise Shot (B)


17
Ranger 12
-
-


18
Ranger 13
Camouflage
FEAT


19
Ranger 14
-
-


20
Ranger 15
4th favored enemy
-





This one is more Ranger focused.

19 BAB, 2 good saves, plenty of skill points most of the levels. With a couple of Ranger and JoWaW spells backing it up.

Thanks to the Fighter/JWW stacking, it qualifies for Weapon Specialization at level 8 and can grab Ranged Weapon Mastery at 9.

1d6 Sneak Attack, Hit-and-Run tactics and 4 Favored Enemies offer some extra damage when the opportunity arises.

Suggested ACFs/substitution (levels including the one listed in the build):
Arcane Hunter
Elf Favored Enemy
Trap Expert
Spiritual Connection
Shooting Star Ranger 4 (or any other Animal-Companion-trading ACF, but this I like this one the most)
Hit-and-Run Tactics
Resolute
Shooting Star Ranger 8 (if you didn't take Trap Expert)

I left a couple of feat slots empty, here are some suggested feats:
Craven
Improved Rapid Shot
Improved Favored Enemy
Knowledge Devotion
Darkstalker (thanx WeaselGuy)
Greater Manyshot (I don't recommend this, but it's still an option)

[WeaselGuy]

Nice, here's mine:




Level
Class
Class Features
Feats


1
Ranger 1
Favored Enemy (Arcanists), Track, Wild Empathy
Point Blank Shot


2
Ranger 2
Combat Style (Archery)
Rapid Shot (B)


3
Ranger 3
Endurance
Precise Shot


4
Ranger 4
Animal Comanion
-


5
Fighter 1
Bonus Feat, Hit & Run Tactics
Weapon Focus (Longbow)


6
Fighter 2
Resolute
Woodland Archer


7
Justice of Weald & Woe 1
Spells
-


8
Justice of Weald & Woe 2
Bonus Feat, Woodland Stride
Weapon Specialization (Longbow)


9
Justice of Weald & Woe 2
Sneak Attack +1d6
Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)


10
Ranger 5
2nd favored enemy
-


11
Ranger 6
Improved combat style (Archery)
Manyshot (B)


12
Ranger 7
Woodland stride
FEAT


13
Ranger 8
Swift tracker
-


14
Ranger 9
Evasion
-


15
Ranger 10
3rd favored enemy
FEAT


16
Ranger 11
Combat style mastery (Archery)
Improved Precise Shot (B)


17
Ranger 12
-
-


18
Ranger 13
Camouflage
FEAT


19
Ranger 14
-
-


20
Ranger 15
4th favored enemy
-





This one is more Ranger focused.

19 BAB, 2 good saves, plenty of skill points most of the levels. With a couple of Ranger and JoWaW spells backing it up.

Thanks to the Fighter/JWW stacking, it qualifies for Weapon Specialization at level 8 and can grab Ranged Weapon Mastery at 9.

1d6 Sneak Attack, Hit-and-Run tactics and 4 Favored Enemies offer some extra damage when the opportunity arises.

Suggested ACFs/substitution (levels including the one listed in the build):
Arcane Hunter
Elf Favored Enemy
Trap Expert
Spiritual Connection
Shooting Star Ranger 4 (or any other Animal-Companion-trading ACF, but this I like this one the most)
Hit-and-Run Tactics
Resolute
Shooting Star Ranger 8 (if you didn't take Trap Expert)

I left a couple of feat slots empty, here are some suggested feats:
Craven
Improved Rapid Shot
Improved Favored Enemy

Can never underestimate the value of Darkstalker in any stealth build...

[WhamBamSam]

There is rather a lot of "dislike" of OotBI and belief that it is "made of fail". Personally, I've found it to be a good choice to overcome higher DR's due to significant one-shot damage, coupled with feats that allow you to frequently get back into cover (Shot on the Run). It may not stack up to the Multishot demons however they can run into problems on the DR front if they're not careful. :smallbiggrin:Ranged Precision has the discernible anatomy/ same limitations as other forms of precision damage, and is only one more damage per dice on average than Sneak Attack/Skirmish/whatever (before things like Craven) so no, OotBI doesn't really help in that regard. Also, even with the silly Rules Compendium rule about precision damage on standard action volleys, Greater Manyshot explicitly gets around that problem. There really isn't any advantage of OotBI over a decent Swift Hunter.

Regarding Arrow Mind, you can get it via the Draconic Rite of Passage as a kobold or a changeling with Racial Emulation and get up to 3 uses/day with Draconic Resevoir. Relatedly, one level of Stalwart Sorcerer (make it a Dragonblood Sorcerer too if you can use an appropriate race and there's a skill you want from the Draconic Heritage list) might not be the worst thing in the world, since it'd probably get you enough uses of Arrow Mind and maybe a few other decent archery spells to get by, and would nab you Weapon Focus as a bonus feat (which you pretty much always need for some prereq or other in a ranged build).

[Xerlith]

For massive damage from the distance, I like Dragonfire Inspiration/Iaijutsu Focus/Sneak Attack characters. And yea, that can be put into one build.

OA Samurai2/Ranger2/Hit-And-Run Targeteer Fighter2/Iaijutsu Master5/Bard3/Swordsage2/Warblade6

Feats:
1st: Able Learner, Point-Blank Shot, Flaw: Quick Draw
2nd(Samurai): Weapon Focus (Katana)
3rd: Precise Shot
Fighter1: Vital Aim
Fighter 2: Improved Initiative
6th: Manyshot
9th: Improved Manyshot
12th: Dragonfire Inspiration
15th: Craven

2d6+20 Sneak Attack, 9d6+9xCha mod Iaijutsu Damage, +4d6 Dragonfire Inspiration. And twice dex-to-damage vs flatfooted enemies.

Apply Blurstrike and Morphing to the Ancestral Katana.
Arrows are (improvised) melee weapons

May need flaws or/and some DCFShuffling.

[WeaselGuy]

Does drawing and firing an arrow count as drawing a weapon with regards to iaijutsu?

[Darrin]

Does drawing and firing an arrow count as drawing a weapon with regards to iaijutsu?

Yep. PHB p. 114:

"An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2)."

[j_spencer93]

so wait, you get precision damage with this class but can only make 1 attack per round? there are ways to make that better but ya i can see why it is considered bad.

[j_spencer93]

Yep. PHB p. 114:

"An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier x2)."

that actually doesn't answer his question at all. that is simply telling you that you can use a arrow in melee. Can it be shot and still get iaijutsu focus?

[Xerlith]

that actually doesn't answer his question at all. that is simply telling you that you can use a arrow in melee. Can it be shot and still get iaijutsu focus?

Yes, since the skill calls out only drawing a melee weapon. If the arrow doesn't work, just carry a bunch of daggers and draw them with quickdraw before attacking. Or flip a Quickrazor. Or anything really.

Relevant bit:


If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon, you can deal extra damage, based on the result of an Iaijutsu Focus check.

[WeaselGuy]

Yes, since the skill calls out only drawing a melee weapon. If the arrow doesn't work, just carry a bunch of daggers and draw them with quickdraw before attacking. Or flip a Quickrazor. Or anything really.

Relevant bit:

A perfect case of Written vs Intended to demonstrate to my friends...

[Nightraiderx]

A perfect case of Written vs Intended to demonstrate to my friends...

Aw don't take it away, archery needs nice things too in 3.5 :smallfrown:

[DEMON]

Aw don't take it away, archery needs nice things too in 3.5 :smallfrown:

Though Power Shot as a generally available feat and nonexistence of Wind Wall would be much more preferred to a RAW abuse of Iaijutsu Focus :)

[Invader]

Any advice for making a front line meat shield kind of archer. High AC, high hps, etc. I know it's not optimal but I'm trying to tone things down for the group I'm in which consists of an unoptimized bard, a first time monk with improved init and improved grapple, a multiclass rogue, wizard who's looking into prestige classes and the DMs Fighter/wizard who's going abjurant champion or some gishy class.

I'd really like to play a crusader bc I find them really fun but I think he'd overshadow everyone else even with average feat choices.

[Crake]

Yes, since the skill calls out only drawing a melee weapon. If the arrow doesn't work, just carry a bunch of daggers and draw them with quickdraw before attacking. Or flip a Quickrazor. Or anything really.

Relevant bit:

The thing is, an arrow isn't a melee weapon. It can be used as an improvised melee weapon, but it's weapon type is ammunition, so drawing an arrow does not count as drawing a melee weapon, it counts as drawing ammunition.

[DEMON]

Any advice for making a front line meat shield kind of archer. High AC, high hps, etc. I know it's not optimal but I'm trying to tone things down for the group I'm in which consists of an unoptimized bard, a first time monk with improved init and improved grapple, a multiclass rogue, wizard who's looking into prestige classes and the DMs Fighter/wizard who's going abjurant champion or some gishy class.

I'd really like to play a crusader bc I find them really fun but I think he'd overshadow everyone else even with average feat choices.

I'm sure someone out there will come up with a build that can accomplish this, but I'm just gonna say that tank archer sounds a bit weird to me.

If you want to support your team on the front line and are afraid that a 2HF build would outshine them all, why not try a Sword and Board build? Maybe a Knight, which I'm having a hard time picturing as stealing all the spotlight. Yet he can do his job of getting and keeping aggro and offering flanking opportunities to his team mates.

[Troacctid]

When I think "Tank Archer" I think thrown weapons. The short range increment already forces you to get close to your enemies, so why not take it to the logical conclusion? Or even better: thrown shields. You could totally make a character based on throwing your shield.

[Invader]

I'm sure someone out there will come up with a build that can accomplish this, but I'm just gonna say that tank archer sounds a bit weird to me.

If you want to support your team on the front line and are afraid that a 2HF build would outshine them all, why not try a Sword and Board build? Maybe a Knight, which I'm having a hard time picturing as stealing all the spotlight. Yet he can do his job of getting and keeping aggro and offering flanking opportunities to his team mates.

Mainly because I really want to play a ranged character and because it's something that's different than what you normally see. I can't bring myself to play a knight, I've always really dislike the flavor of the class.