Designing a Dragon God of the Far Realms?

[lunasmeow]

So, I need to design a "Dragon God of the Far Realms". Basically, I'm taking the stats of a Radiant Dragon, and adding any and all templates that would be relevant to make it a Far Realm Dragon, then giving it Godhood equal to a Major God. Ideas? This is supposed to be a nigh-unstoppable Lovecraftian beast that will very likely kill a party of 6 level 40 gestalt characters. Considering five of the six are munchkins in the extreme, be as evilly cheesy as you want.

RAW, any and all official sources. The Dragon has 100 levels, (not gestalt for the dragon) including the mandatory dragon levels. The God given HD are not counted in the 100 levels, they are added on top at the end.

They literally just asked for the "craziest, most dangerous encounter you can possibly create". I said okay.

Any suggestions?

[Karl Aegis]

How crazy are we talking? Are your players beating things over the head with galaxies yet?

[lunasmeow]

They kill normal Gods if they piss them off. They said they either want to beat the toughest thing in the history of tough things, or go out with a bang.

Oh, it can be half-dragon half something else if necessary. Like say... phaerimm or illithid, or whatever you want.

[Chronos]

In order to design such a thing, we need to know exactly what is and what is not allowed. And when we're talking about hundreds of levels in a high-op game, a statement of what is and is not allowed must necessarily be many pages long. And even then, it's not really going to be possible to challenge them: Either their dirty tricks are superior to the dragon's dirty tricks, in which case they're guaranteed to win without effort, or the dragon's tricks are superior to theirs, in which case they're guaranteed to lose.

[Eldan]

Okay, how are they killing normal gods? Methods are quite important. After all, gods should be able to see them coming weeks ahead and can bar them from their domain with no chance of entering. And the gods should just come back as long as they have at least one worshipper left.

[Starmage21]

They kill normal Gods if they piss them off. They said they either want to beat the toughest thing in the history of tough things, or go out with a bang.

You havent used Life and Death on them yet? (instakill, no save, nonmagical, non-death effect)

[Bad Wolf]

You might want to start with the epic Pseudonatural template.

[lunasmeow]

Okay, how are they killing normal gods? Methods are quite important. After all, gods should be able to see them coming weeks ahead and can bar them from their domain with no chance of entering. And the gods should just come back as long as they have at least one worshipper left.

Well, they resurrected the dead god of portals, (whose name I now forget, he tried to take over Sigil and got killed by the Lady of Pain) and he now opens doors to wherever they want to go for them.

As for what is allowed? Anything from Greyhawk, Faerun, Pathfinder... any Forgotten Realm stuff really. Any supplements, so long as official. They aren't as powerful as they *think* they are, but they literally asked for "the hardest possible" so I wanna give it to them.

Hardest possible meaning that they have a chance even if it's the most minute possible. Hence, no Life and Death.

They specifically said they're okay with dying as it's the end of the campaign anyway. This battle is just for fun at this point, not a story hurdle to get through.

[Eldan]

Yeah, but what is your upper limit for cheese. In D&D, infinite power is available from level 1.

[lunasmeow]

Yeah, but what is your upper limit for cheese. In D&D, infinite power is available from level 1.

Upper limit is literally like the example you gave with Life and Death. Nothing that insta-kills (or effectively insta-kills) without at least offering a save. Other than that, it doesn't matter.

Example? I allowed the Candle of Invocation. This was a silly campaign so it didn't need houseruling out.

[Red Fel]

Okay, how are they killing normal gods? Methods are quite important. After all, gods should be able to see them coming weeks ahead and can bar them from their domain with no chance of entering. And the gods should just come back as long as they have at least one worshipper left.


You havent used Life and Death on them yet? (instakill, no save, nonmagical, non-death effect)

These. Look, when it comes to a party that regularly kills deities, you can't just throw stats and abilities at them. You can't treat that kind of encounter like a regular encounter but with bigger numbers, and expect to challenge the PCs. You have to play it smartly. It's not enough to cram a bunch of abilities in, you have to use them, and you have to do it in a way that is at once both fiendishly clever and ruthlessly effective.

Starmage mentioned Life and Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath). That's a thing, as is its little brother Hand of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#handOfDeath) (which allows a save). Note that Life and Death merely requires Divine Rank 6 or more - that's an Intermediate Deity. That's not even a Greater Deity, like Boccob, Nerull, or one of the racial paradigms - that's even less than that. Heck, Kord is an Intermediate Deity, and he's an overblown wrestler. Note also that a deity becomes aware of things that impact their portfolio, and as a general rule, killing that deity would impact his portfolio.

Additionally, how are the PCs engaging with any deity that doesn't want to be encountered? Wouldn't they just be battling an avatar or proxy? Why would a deity let them engage him in an open, actual fight?

Now, onto fluff points, it's questionable whether deities even exist in the Far Realm. Ask Afroakuma. The Far Realm is anathema to reality. The gods don't get involved there, because it is beyond everything. It is caustic, even to divine beings. Even assuming a deity exists within the Far Realm, it's highly doubtful it could even interact with the Great Wheel, for much the same reason that deities within the Great Wheel lay off of the Far Realm.

Bottom line, at least from my perspective, is that if you're creating an encounter, you're already missing the point. And frankly, if your PCs are taking on things that have 100+ levels, the game's scale has gotten so massively blown out of proportion that I can't imagine what practical advice could help you.

[lunasmeow]

Like I said, *silly campaign*. As such, random stuff that normally wouldn't fly was allowed.

When they resurrected the portal god, they added a geas effect to the ritual. He has to open doors for them to wherever they want to go. Either the deity kicks them right back out, in which case they go right back in, or the deity leaves, in which case they follow. The deity gets tired of playing cat and mouse, and fights them.

Gods of the Far Realm, maybe there are, maybe there aren't. They asked for hardest imaginable, (but still technically possible) so that's what I'm asking for help with. What's the problem?

Oh, and no alignment restrictions for things like lawful, neutral, or chaotic. Only Good and Evil restrictions.
As in, Good Characters can't have evil classes. Evil character can't have Good classes. Neutral characters however can have both Good, and Evil classes, so long as the relevant classes are tied to a neutral deity. So, be an evil cleric but good paladin of a neutral god if you want style rues. Again, *silly campaign*.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You could use Rovagug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18749309&postcount=1)


Unless limited to Pathfinder, Rovagug is as big a challenge as you want him to be. His unbuffed stats are a good baseline to simply duke it out if he sends one of his avatars to fight them. For fun, he could have a second avatar wishing the first one to full health at the beginning of every round.

[the_david]

So a Great Wyrm Radiant Dragon is CR23, advancing this dragon to 100 hit dice would add 28 to it's CR for a CR of 51, the Pseudonatural template from the Epic Level Handbook would add another 10 for a total CR of 66.
I have no idea what adding 16 ranks of godhood would to the CR, but at this point you probably shouldn't care that much about CR, or at least don't rely on it.

Wait, someone is actually playing a campaign with level 40 gestalt characters?

[lunasmeow]

You could use Rovagug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18749309&postcount=1)


Unless limited to Pathfinder, Rovagug is as big a challenge as you want him to be. His unbuffed stats are a good baseline to simply duke it out if he sends one of his avatars to fight them. For fun, he could have a second avatar wishing the first one to full health at the beginning of every round.

Rovagug is awesome, but I don't think he's even technically possible to beat given his abilities. Unless you're suggesting I strip away what I don't want, which seems like a good idea.

[lunasmeow]

So a Great Wyrm Radiant Dragon is CR23, advancing this dragon to 100 hit dice would add 28 to it's CR for a CR of 51, the Pseudonatural template from the Epic Level Handbook would add another 10 for a total CR of 66.
I have no idea what adding 16 ranks of godhood would to the CR, but at this point you probably shouldn't care that much about CR, or at least don't rely on it.

Wait, someone is actually playing a campaign with level 40 gestalt characters?

Yeah... This was a goofy campaign made just to see what people could/would do if they could level indefinitely. I just extended the exp table.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Avatars. Rovagug can make up to 20 of them, each one with his base stats but only DvR 10 and half his number of SDAs. Rovagug can choose which SDAs they get too, out of those he has.


So yes, you can essentially use the statblock with fewer powers as an avatar. It will still be as strong as a typical middle-power deity but with fewer autokills.

[lunasmeow]

Maybe a Prismatic Dragon as a base instead?

[Karl Aegis]

Pseudonatural Paragon Adult Polychromatic Dragon.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

He can assume the form and abilities of any nondivine creature, while keeping his own. Essentially, he can become a prismatic dragon as a free action. The one thing he wouldn't get would be the spellcasting, which he doesn't need. Better yet, no HD limit to the assumed form. You can give him as many dragon breath damage dice, spell resistance, and as high STR/CON as you feel like it.


You see the party winning? You can hulk him out mid-combat legally.

[lunasmeow]

He can assume the form and abilities of any nondivine creature, while keeping his own. Essentially, he can become a prismatic dragon as a free action. The one thing he wouldn't get would be the spellcasting, which he doesn't need. Better yet, no HD limit to the assumed form. You can give him as many dragon breath damage dice, spell resistance, and as high STR/CON as you feel like it.


You see the party winning? You can hulk him out mid-combat legally.

I think I'll send a lone avatar, so it can't wish back to full health every turn, and give it his normal full HD. Nice.

[Flickerdart]

Both Hand of Death and Life and Death are [Death] effects because they are based on the spell destruction and don't override descriptors.

[ShurikVch]

The most Far Realm-related template ever is Half-Farspawn (LoM)

Also, how about Kaiju?

[Doctor Awkward]

I'd start with this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharizdun) as a base.

Actually, forget that, his Avatar, Shothrogat, could probably handle them. He is detailed in the last Dragon Magazine to feature 3rd edition material, #362.

I have it as a PDF, but it can be hard to find. I have no idea how the forum handles the legality of out-of-print web material, but if it's allowed I could post his full stat block.

Of particular note is this ability:
Divine Madness (Su) All extraplanar outsiders with divine ranks that come within 100 miles of Shothragot are affected as if by the insanity spell (no save). When rolling to determine actions, any result that would have the afflicted creature attack the caster instead forces the god to attack the closest creature and not the elder evil.

If the players do not have divine ranks themselves (odd if they kill other gods for fun), then it will have an even easier time killing them, so long as you give it enough extra hit dice.

EDIT: Oh right, his manifestations...
Simply by existing, he foils all Conjuration spells with the summoning, calling, and teleportation descriptor, and all divination spells that contact extraplanar beings.
Divine Casters are at -4 for casting spells, and every day they attempt to regain spells they have a 20% chance per spell of simply preparing nothing. And all turning and rebuking checks take a -20 penalty to the damage roll.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Any deity worth its salt uses Alter Reality to get mind blank. No insanity for you.


Except for guys like Rovagug - those are both naturally immune and already insane.

[Doctor Awkward]

Any deity worth its salt uses Alter Reality to get mind blank. No insanity for you.


Except for guys like Rovagug - those are both naturally immune and already insane.

I'm trying to find the part of the description for Divine Madness that says it's mind-affecting... but I just can't see it...

[Coidzor]

So, I need to design a "Dragon God of the Far Realms". Basically, I'm taking the stats of a Radiant Dragon, and adding any and all templates that would be relevant to make it a Far Realm Dragon, then giving it Godhood equal to a Major God. Ideas? This is supposed to be a nigh-unstoppable Lovecraftian beast that will very likely kill a party of 6 level 40 gestalt characters. Considering five of the six are munchkins in the extreme, be as evilly cheesy as you want.

RAW, any and all official sources. The Dragon has 100 levels, (not gestalt for the dragon) including the mandatory dragon levels. The God given HD are not counted in the 100 levels, they are added on top at the end.

They literally just asked for the "craziest, most dangerous encounter you can possibly create". I said okay.

Any suggestions?

Why a dragon of all things? Of all the squiddly, lovecraftian horrors and eldritch abominations you could go with, why does Dragon stand out to you?

Knowing that will help you decide better what you want to do with it and help us better suggest things to you.

[M Placeholder]

Well, they resurrected the dead god of portals, (whose name I now forget, he tried to take over Sigil and got killed by the Lady of Pain) and he now opens doors to wherever they want to go for them.


Its Aoskar. And he didn't try to take over the Cage, his crime was that one of the Dabus (Fell) became his priest

Quite frankly, those berks should have been flayed way, way before then.

[M Placeholder]

Why a dragon of all things? Of all the squiddly, lovecraftian horrors and eldritch abominations you could go with, why does Dragon stand out to you?


Just send them to the Far Realm. After all, one of the laws of the Far Realm is that pretty much anything goes. If you want to reduce them to level one goblins and sic a mind flayer on them, thats fine.

How are you actually having trouble killing off these PC's? It should be easy, especially if you are using the Great Wheel cosmology.

Here are some ideas -

1 - Open a portal to Athas, point them in the direction of the Valley of Dust and Fire and watch them die
2 - Open a portal to the Negative Energy plane, watch them die
3 - As above, except use the Positive Energy plane
4 - Have them run into 25 Pun-Puns.