PDA

View Full Version : Player Dilemmas



Bacchanalian
2015-02-10, 11:12 AM
Last night I stuck my party with a horrible decision to make. As a relatively new DM, it was fun to not just see my players stumped, but emotionally torn about what to do.

They're in a campaign following the trail of a BBEG who is gathering magic stolen from magic items and gathered in vessels. Eventually these vessels are to be destroyed to allow the BBEG to consume this magic and elevate himself to the status of a god.

Last night I twisted the knife. They found one such vessel. A 6 year old girl who had been trapped in a cage in an ancient temple for nearly 1,000 years, begging to be put out of her misery. After 1,000 years, the magic was torturing her, burning her from the inside and she tearfully begged the party to end her misery. One of the party somberly took it on herself to do the deed. Another refused to let her, frantically begging to find a way to save the girl, insisting that there has to be something they can do. The third just quietly sat to the side looking devastated.

Maybe it's evil glee for me to be so excited, but it's the most in-character I've ever seen the party. In fact, the one trying to stop the other from adhering to the girl's wishes is the most reluctant role-player in the group, the one who has the most trouble coming up with a character and rarely comes out of his shell to play it. Last night he was in full character mode without even realizing it, passionately arguing his side.

I want more! What other dilemmas have you faced? What are some other good ones to consider? I love dragging the RP out of my players (they're all new to D&D), and I found something that worked beautifully last night.

Anonymouswizard
2015-02-10, 11:37 AM
That sounds like a wonderful scenario, and I'm definitely using it as a plot point in my Dark Heresy game. I've rarely made players have a dilemma or been in a situation, because if a player can actually come up with a half decent plan to do something we will rally behind this strange event. The rest of the time we will come to an agreement as to what to do, and then spend two hours arguing over how to do it.

Though I did managed to creep my players out last session, and hope to do so again today.

Beta Centauri
2015-02-10, 03:19 PM
As long as the players themselves weren't devastated, and the blocking by the character didn't lead to an interminable argument either between the characters or the players, great.

Bacchanalian
2015-02-10, 04:28 PM
We haven't concluded yet (we left off last night mid-conversation), but the two players arguing are a married couple so I'm not worried about it causing major issues. Talking with them today, they're on the edge of their seats and loving it. My wife (the mopey gnome rogue) keeps telling me she hates me, but she's so wrapped up in it I can tell she loves it.

Magic Myrmidon
2015-02-10, 04:30 PM
One problem I see is that she isn't exactly a 6 year old girl if she's been trapped for 1000 years. :p

Anyway, I like dealing with tough situations in RPGs. This sort of thing is great story stuff.

Frozen_Feet
2015-02-10, 04:42 PM
Are you familiar with this little Lamentations of the Flame Princess module called Death Love Doom (http://www.lotfp.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=152)? If not, check it out. :smallamused:

In any case, I love dilemmas, both as a GM and a player. I could go on all night about the various awful things I've had my players choose between, but instead I'll reminescence on the last campaign I was a player in. In it, we had to visit an orphanage. It was in all-around hideous shape, with the upkeepers tormenting the children within, but worse, we also had reason to suspect that some of the staff or children were changelings. We discussed just torching the place and killing the owners, but after a while, were satisfied with breaking a few kneecaps after we determined none of the staff were changelings, and the children were harmless enough.

Came to bite us in the back when at the end of that session, we learned all of the children had been changelings.

goto124
2015-02-10, 07:28 PM
...were the players onboard with the idea of moral dilemmas?

Because if one expected clear black-and-white morality, only to be hit with grey and gray areas, it won't turn out well.

Also, how much XP for that girl?

Beta Centauri
2015-02-10, 07:31 PM
...were the players onboard with the idea of moral dilemmas?

Because if one expected clear black-and-white morality, only to be hit with grey and gray areas, it won't turn out well. Agreed. I tend to find that people who want black-and-while morality will just make it black-and-white. There's one good choice and I'm doing it and anyone who tries to stop me is evil.

Sounds like this group might avoided that, though.

Tengu_temp
2015-02-10, 07:46 PM
I don't really see this as a moral dilemma - there's only one right thing to do, unless the PCs know they have a way to save the girl, any alternatives are just fooling themselves. Killing her, something she wants you to do, is merciful. Doesn't make it any less heartbreaking, though.

Good job on creating a scenario that shakes the players, in a good way. And if a player wants a simplistic story with black and white morality... unless they're like 8 years old, it's probably good to challenge their preconceptions.

Beta Centauri
2015-02-10, 07:59 PM
I don't really see this as a moral dilemma - there's only one right thing to do, unless the PCs know they have a way to save the girl, any alternatives are just fooling themselves. Killing her, something she wants you to do, is merciful. Doesn't make it any less heartbreaking, though. Like I said.


Good job on creating a scenario that shakes the players, in a good way. And if a player wants a simplistic story with black and white morality... unless they're like 8 years old, it's probably good to challenge their preconceptions. To be clear, what conclusions are you saying you can draw about someone who enjoys a simple story with black-and-white morality?

goto124
2015-02-10, 08:00 PM
And if a player wants a simplistic story with black and white morality... unless they're like 8 years old, it's probably good to challenge their preconceptions.

'I came here to play a game, not to do grey moralities'.

If you want to challenge, at least ask first.

Deophaun
2015-02-10, 08:32 PM
I can think of a few alternatives. But the question would be whether it was cruel to prolong her suffering as we took time to prepare them. And even then, they may not work depending on the magic. And if they did, the effects of 1000 years of constant torture do not just disappear once the source is gone.

So, basically, more grey.

Traab
2015-02-10, 09:59 PM
Oh man, I have so many ideas and questions based off what was going on up till this point. As an example, do they know HOW the BBEG is draining magic and storing it for later? They might be able to help the immortal 6 year old by draining the magic out of her themselves, leaving her enough to live but not be burning by its power. Maybe even use that magic themselves, split it amongst the party for a stat boost or whatever.

Red Fel
2015-02-10, 10:35 PM
Going to echo what others have said. I love putting my players in heartbreaking dilemmas, in part because it forces them to think and feel. Which leads me to one key point - I only find heartbreaking dilemmas gratifying if the PCs, with enough hard work and cleverness, can work around them. In this case, as long as "kill the child" and "let the world burn" aren't the only options, you're doing a great job. In my mind, that's what a dilemma does - if the players know that they can find a "good ending" if they work hard enough, they will, and everyone will feel amazing afterwards. On the other hand, if "kill the child" and "let the world burn" are the only options, then it's really just a suckerpunch. It's almost a slap in the face. As a player, I would resent being in that position - it feels like railroading. So I hope you keep that in mind, come next session.

As an aside... "Please do not take these items."

BrokenChord
2015-02-10, 10:57 PM
I'll mirror what Red Fel said, except I usually go for "working hard and finding a better (but not perfect) option" than working hard and getting around the entire dilemma. I don't like suckerpunching my players, but I also don't like making them feel like "earn your happy ending" is synonymous with "do your best and all your victories will come without sacrifice."

Really, my favorite use for dilemmas is reminding players that their PCs are powerful, not all-powerful, and no amount of heroic effort will change the fact that they can't do everything, and something will always be lost, whether through bad luck, coinciding timing ("wait, but if we save x, we won't have time to prevent y"), or consequence ("shoot, if we kill X like we wanted to, the political structure will crumble and there'll probably be a lot of bloodshed until somebody muscles their way back to the top"). Now, I'm all for Pcs mitigating those losses with devoted effort, but they'll always lose something that they might've been able to keep with a different choice of actions. THAT's part of what it means to make choices matter in my opinion.

Red Fel
2015-02-10, 11:11 PM
I'll mirror what Red Fel said, except I usually go for "working hard and finding a better (but not perfect) option" than working hard and getting around the entire dilemma. I don't like suckerpunching my players, but I also don't like making them feel like "earn your happy ending" is synonymous with "do your best and all your victories will come without sacrifice."

Really, my favorite use for dilemmas is reminding players that their PCs are powerful, not all-powerful, and no amount of heroic effort will change the fact that they can't do everything, and something will always be lost, whether through bad luck, coinciding timing ("wait, but if we save x, we won't have time to prevent y"), or consequence ("shoot, if we kill X like we wanted to, the political structure will crumble and there'll probably be a lot of bloodshed until somebody muscles their way back to the top"). Now, I'm all for Pcs mitigating those losses with devoted effort, but they'll always lose something that they might've been able to keep with a different choice of actions. THAT's part of what it means to make choices matter in my opinion.

Oh, I agree 100%. Nothing comes for free, otherwise it's not a dilemma. And the "good ending" doesn't mean "everyone lives happily ever after," it just means that you aren't choosing between destroying everything you love and value and watching the universe collapse. There's still pain, there's still a bit of hurt, that's what makes for great storytelling and dramatic tension; what disappears is the sense of futility, of powerlessness, that comes from being confronted with two equally monstrous options and no way to avoid choosing between them. Instead, the players have a sense of power that comes from knowing that they can make a difference; there will still be hurt, but less of it, and they'll know that it's because of what they did. Assuming, of course, that they try, and that they succeed.

Frankly, moment of total honesty, using a kid as the lich's phylactery (or equivalent, as here) is one of the older, dirtier tricks in the book. Tacking on a thousand years of torment is a nice, vicious touch - I really do approve. But, were I in your position, I wouldn't be opposed to, say, letting the PCs go on some elaborate sidequest, rife with personal sacrifice, to siphon off the magic and let the girl live a normal life, rather than killing her. That is, of course, assuming they chose to pursue such an option.

Bacchanalian
2015-02-10, 11:41 PM
I was ready to roll with whatever the players did--I never set things in stone and this party keeps me on my toes with crazy ideas and solutions, so if they threw something creative at me I certainly would have worked with it to see where it would have gone.

As it went though, they decided to put the girl out of her misery, resulting in the transfer of the magic to the female elf who put her out of her misery.

Tengu_temp
2015-02-11, 06:11 PM
To be clear, what conclusions are you saying you can draw about someone who enjoys a simple story with black-and-white morality?

It's entirely based on personal experiences so I'm not saying it's true for everyone, and I really hope your experiences have been different, but from the people I played with who wanted simplistic stories with black-and-white morality and balked at anything even a bit more morally complex or including tragic elements, most if not all tended to have a simplistic and juvenile viewpoint on real life matters as well.

That was the longest sentence I wrote in a while.