The Spirit of The Wild (Monk Discipline)

[NeoSeraphi]

First Stance: At 3rd level, the monk can assume a stance as a bonus action by spending 1 ki point, or change stances as a bonus action by spending 1 ki point. The stances last 3 rounds or until you change stances.

Tiger Stance - The monk's Flurry of Blows becomes faster and harder to dodge. The monk has advantage on both extra attack rolls he gets with Flurry of Blows. The monk deals slashing damage with his unarmed strikes.

Turtle Stance - The monk's defensive abilities improve. By spending a reaction, the monk can increase his Armor Class by +2 against a single attack.

Bear Stance - As part of the Dash action, the monk can make a single unarmed strike attack.

Phoenix Stance - The monk's unarmed strikes deal an additional 1d6 fire damage. By spending a bonus action, the monk deals 3d6 fire damage to all creatures within 10' of the monk (Dex Half).


Second Stance: The monk can now assume or change stances by spending 1 ki point as a reaction. Additionally, each stance improves.

Tiger Stance - The monk's unarmed strikes deal an additional 2 damage. The monk can spend 1 ki point as part of the Attack action to ignore the target's resistance.

Turtle Stance - Upon taking this stance the monk gains 2 temporary hit points per level. Each round this stance persists, the monk gains an additional five temporary hit points. This stance cannot grant more than 50 temporary hit points in one minute.

Bear Stance - The monk adds +2 to the DC of his Stunning Strike.

Phoenix Stance - Upon taking this stance, all creatures within 10' must make a Dex save or take 3d6 fire damage. This attack continues each round the stance persists.

Third Stance: The monk's stances now last up to 1 minute or until the monk changes stances. Each stance also gets stronger.

Tiger Stance - The monk's unarmed strikes leave bleeding wounds on the target. Any creature hit by the monks unarmed strikes takes 5 slashing damage every round while the stance persists. (Doesn't stack with itself)

Turtle Stance - The monk gains resistance to all damage.

Bear Stance - The monk's unarmed strikes leave the target staggered. Any time the monk hits with his unarmed strikes the target loses 20' of movement speed while the stance persists (doesn't stack with itself)

Phoenix Stance - The monk can attack every creature within melee reach with its unarmed strikes. The monk's additional fire damage increases to 1d10.

Fourth Stance: The monk no longer needs to spend ki to assume or change stances. Each stance improves.

Tiger Stance - The monk can tear his enemies to pieces with his claws. Any unarmed strike damage die he rolls that is a 1 or a 2 results in a 3 instead.

Turtle Stance - The monk can spend a reaction to make any magical or physical attack that hits him deal minimum damage (if it's an AOE effect, it deals minimum damage to every creature hit by it).

Bear Stance - The monk can move through any square, with no penalties for moving through an enemy's square or difficult terrain. The monk provokes no opportunity attacks for movement.

Phoenix Stance - The monk ignores resistance and immunity to fire.

[Amnoriath]

It is levels 3, 7, 11, and 17. While ki options are nice having them constitute the entire subclass get to ignore costs as well them having no cost in the end is a bad design. Ki is there so that you aren't doing every round and give a resource mechanic to do better things. This though basically gives you 4 lines of abilities that have a couple advantages with in them to make the Monk ultimately better at everything.

[NeoSeraphi]

Having no cost in the end is bad design? Why? Barbarians can rage infinitely, druids can wild shape infinitely, rogues can Sneak Attack once per round. Even the ranger's terrible Foe Slayer ability is once per round with no limits. Why should monk players be constrained at level 17?

[Amnoriath]

Having no cost in the end is bad design? Why? Barbarians can rage infinitely, druids can wild shape infinitely, rogues can Sneak Attack once per round. Even the ranger's terrible Foe Slayer ability is once per round with no limits. Why should monk players be constrained at level 17?

Because Monks often have features that copy a variety of other classes as well as having its own effective features without stepping on them. Here you stepping on others because you are making something with the express intention of making the Monk better in at least 4 different lines at the same time.

[Wartex1]

Also, automatic success on saving throws for free is way too overpowered.

[NeoSeraphi]

Also, automatic success on saving throws for free is way too overpowered.

I was worried that one might be too good. I've replaced it with a completely different level 17 tank ability. What do you think?

[Wartex1]

You could actually change it to just take half damage from everything.

[NeoSeraphi]

You could actually change it to just take half damage from everything.

He already gets that at level 11.

With this ability, at level 17, if he was targeted by a 10d6 fireball, he could spend his reaction to take 5 damage (10 minimum, halved by his resistance). If he didn't spend the reaction, he'd just take half of 10d6.

[Easy_Lee]

Way overpowered. You've got to compare these kinds of things to existing archetypes when balancing something. As a rule, nobody should outdamage a fighter, or if they do it shouldn't be by much.

What kind of damage do we expect from a fighter by 20? With a greatsword, four attacks at 2d6 + 5 strength, or 48DPR. He's pretty likely to get the bonus, particularly if champion. Also if he's a champion, there's a good chance for a crit, 48% over the course of four attacks, which will produce an extra attack (great weapon mastery, he will have this) and double damage on one of the attacks.
Champion with Greatsword: 4*(2d6+5) + 0.48*(2*(2d6)+5)=57.12DPR slashing

Now that we've done that, let's examine this monk. We'll just take tiger stance. By 20, it's free, so flurry for free, an extra attack, +2 damage, d10 damage die, and 5 bleed damage. So we have one main attack, two extra attacks, and two from flurry, 5 attacks. Each attack deals 1d10+2+5(Dex) damage. The monk only has a 23% chance to crit once within five attacks, gaining an extra d10 in damage.
Tiger Monk: 5(1d10+2+5)+0.23(1d10)+5(bleed)=68.765 slashing

So the spirit monk outdamages the champion fighter, on top of having an almost guaranteed higher AC, more in-combat options, more special abilities, and being able to do it all while naked. And for even more brokenness, take 17 levels of monk, 3 levels of fighter for dueling (works with unarmed strike by RAW), action surge, and some maneuvers from BM. That'll bring us up to 78.765 DPR.

In all honesty, we didn't have to compare this archetype to the fighter. Comparing it to any other archetype would be fine. In all cases, we see that the damage and versatility are way too high on this one. Switch to turtle stance as a reaction, gaining resistance to all damage and up to 40 temporary hit points? That's a bullcrap feature and you know it.

[NeoSeraphi]

In all honesty, we didn't have to compare this archetype to the fighter. Comparing it to any other archetype would be fine. In all cases, we see that the damage and versatility are way too high on this one. Switch to turtle stance as a reaction, gaining resistance to all damage and up to 40 temporary hit points? That's a bullcrap feature and you know it.

No more so than shifting as a bonus action and giving yourself 100 fresh hit points every round, while being able to cast 9th level spells.

I'll admit I went over board on the Tiger Stance damage, so I'll fix that now, but I contend there's nothing wrong with a strong defensive character. Being able to survive most anything doesn't win you a fight, it just prevents you from losing, and it also doesn't guarantee the enemy won't just switch targets unless you have Sentinel.

[Easy_Lee]

No more so than shifting as a bonus action and giving yourself 100 fresh hit points every round, while being able to cast 9th level spells.

I'll admit I went over board on the Tiger Stance damage, so I'll fix that now, but I contend there's nothing wrong with a strong defensive character. Being able to survive most anything doesn't win you a fight, it just prevents you from losing, and it also doesn't guarantee the enemy won't just switch targets unless you have Sentinel.

Repeat after me: the moon druid at level 20 is not a basis for comparison, ever. Even if it was, 40 temp hp with resistance to all damage as a reaction with the monk's AC and saves is much better than 100 hp / round on a druid with his saves and AC. The druid can be locked down, while the monk is proficient in every save and will be difficult to shut down even if your big bad brought an int-save spell. Strong defensive character? Try strongest defensive character in the game, hands down, while still having equal or better DPR than the hardest-hitting fighter. It's broken, bro.

[NeoSeraphi]

Repeat after me: the moon druid at level 20 is not a basis for comparison, ever. Even if it was, 40 temp hp with resistance to all damage as a reaction with the monk's AC and saves is much better than 100 hp / round on a druid with his saves and AC. The druid can be locked down, while the monk is proficient in every save and will be difficult to shut down even if your big bad brought an int-save spell. Strong defensive character? Try strongest defensive character in the game, hands down, while still having equal or better DPR than the hardest-hitting fighter. It's broken, bro.

I already nerfed Tiger Stance's DPR, as I said I would, but sure, let's deal with his defenses too. I've made it so the Turtle Stance cannot grant more than 50 temporary hit points in one minute. Switching to turtle to give yourself resistance to damage is an excellent use of your reaction (Similar to a rogue's Uncanny Defense) but it will only grant you 10 temporary hit points beyond the first shift.

[Amnoriath]

I already nerfed Tiger Stance's DPR, as I said I would, but sure, let's deal with his defenses too. I've made it so the Turtle Stance cannot grant more than 50 temporary hit points in one minute. Switching to turtle to give yourself resistance to damage is an excellent use of your reaction (Similar to a rogue's Uncanny Defense) but it will only grant you 10 temporary hit points beyond the first shift.
Look, you have been doing this for a while and you have made much better work. So lets break this down. A good way to revise it is look at how Totem Barbarian is constructed and how the Elemental Monk scales in terms of its ki abilities. A combination between the two in mechanics will yield both a versatile Monk but one with proper constraints with good utility.

[NeoSeraphi]

Look, you have been doing this for a while and you have made much better work. So lets break this down. A good way to revise it is look at how Totem Barbarian is constructed and how the Elemental Monk scales in terms of its ki abilities. A combination between the two in mechanics will yield both a versatile Monk but one with proper constraints with good utility.

I can't do either of those things. That doesn't fulfill the required fantasy of this class (an unarmed warrior who is able to draw upon the power of four spirit animals in sequence and combine offense and defense for interesting effects). Limiting him to selections similar to those archetypes would be missing the entire point of the archetype.

[Seerow]

The trouble you're running into is that 5e classes suck, as a rule. You, by trying to design something that does not suck, offends the sensibilities of anybody who actually wants to play 5e. In other words, your basic design premise is going to upset anyone who may be interested in actually playing your creation.

[Amnoriath]

I can't do either of those things. That doesn't fulfill the required fantasy of this class (an unarmed warrior who is able to draw upon the power of four spirit animals in sequence and combine offense and defense for interesting effects). Limiting him to selections similar to those archetypes would be missing the entire point of the archetype.

Neither of those sub-classes limit you to one animal or element. So someone can choose those selections if they wish. Otherwise you might need to consider a form of shape shifting because as is you have too much easy flow with all of the features.

[NeoSeraphi]

Neither of those sub-classes limit you to one animal or element. So someone can choose those selections if they wish. Otherwise you might need to consider a form of shape shifting because as is you have too much easy flow with all of the features.

Easy flow? It costs 1 ki point to switch between forms until level 17. The monk's maximum ki pool is 20. Switching between them is rough.

[Amnoriath]

Easy flow? It costs 1 ki point to switch between forms until level 17. The monk's maximum ki pool is 20. Switching between them is rough.

Per short rest, that means he can shift things around 16 times since a couple of these abilities have to deal with avoiding ki cost until he gets an hour break. Conversely Warlocks top out at 4 and Battlemaster 7 with a feat.

[NeoSeraphi]

Per short rest, that means he can shift things around 16 times since a couple of these abilities have to deal with avoiding ki cost until he gets an hour break. Conversely Warlocks top out at 4 and Battlemaster 7 with a feat.

That leaves the DM with pretty much full control over how powerful the class is. Short rests come in short supply.

[Easy_Lee]

That leaves the DM with pretty much full control...

That's 5e.

[NeoSeraphi]

That's 5e.

I know, and that's why I'm not concerned with the daily reservoir of ki points balancing out the daily power of this class. That's not my job, it's the DM's job. I'm only concerned with the encounter reservoir of this class balancing out the power/versatility between short rests.

[Amnoriath]

I know, and that's why I'm not concerned with the daily reservoir of ki points balancing out the daily power of this class. That's not my job, it's the DM's job. I'm only concerned with the encounter reservoir of this class balancing out the power/versatility between short rests.

You have just contradicted yourself. You said effectively said short rests are not my problem because they are DM dependent. You now say you are concerned with balancing it in encounters leading up to short rests. The problem is you are ultimately making minimum costs for duration based abilities which are like 2/3's subclasses that can flow almost seemlessly from one to another while removing the cost entirely as well as other the ki costs of other Monk features. Ki in and of itself is a balancing mechanism.

[NeoSeraphi]

You have just contradicted yourself. You said effectively said short rests are not my problem because they are DM dependent. You now say you are concerned with balancing it in encounters leading up to short rests. The problem is you are ultimately making minimum costs for duration based abilities which are like 2/3's subclasses that can flow almost seemlessly from one to another while removing the cost entirely as well as other the ki costs of other Monk features. Ki in and of itself is a balancing mechanism.

You have to spend ki to ignore ki. And for the first 11 levels, you don't even get much use out of it, because you have to assume your stance as a bonus action (or a reaction), giving you only 2 chances (3 if you use your reaction) to ignore ki.

[Amnoriath]

You have to spend ki to ignore ki. And for the first 11 levels, you don't even get much use out of it, because you have to assume your stance as a bonus action (or a reaction), giving you only 2 chances (3 if you use your reaction) to ignore ki.

You are still giving a 2+ for 1 benefit. It then becomes 3+ for 1. Then at 11 it becomes 1 minute effectively making a 10+ for 1 benefit. Then we all know the capstone. The problem is it functions to spam key monk features while still have many other fairly powerful abilities all of which ignore ki cost or have very minimum ki cost. Not only is this an issue of stepping on other classes because of spamming you have neglected your resource feature because you ultimately don't want them to conserve.

[NeoSeraphi]

I don't feel the need for the monk to conserve. Most of the abilities that ignore ki exist in the Cunning Action ability already, and the monk should be more mobile than the rogue anyway.

For the Tiger Stance, it's similar to a Frenzying berserker but without Great Weapon Mastery or Rage damage (until 7).

The monk can only assume one stance at a time. So pseudo tanking, pseudo dps, pseudo aoe burst or pseudo mobile battlefield control. None at the same time. It's mundane versatility.

[Amnoriath]

I don't feel the need for the monk to conserve. Most of the abilities that ignore ki exist in the Cunning Action ability already, and the monk should be more mobile than the rogue anyway.

For the Tiger Stance, it's similar to a Frenzying berserker but without Great Weapon Mastery or Rage damage (until 7).

The monk can only assume one stance at a time. So pseudo tanking, pseudo dps, pseudo aoe burst or pseudo mobile battlefield control. None at the same time. It's mundane versatility.

1. They get a 30 foot bonus to their speed, so they already are.
2. Monks already get an extra unarmed attack for free, flurry is 2. Frenzy is one big hit that leaves them exhausted after battle. That is why people say Frenzy sucks because it curses the character for the rest of the day.
3. You change it as a reaction. Since many of theses defensive abilities already exist as reactions there is no real cost in action in comparison to others. So you can determine when it would be appropriate to use your regular features or to conserve while having a defensive or reactionary burst in the ready. This isn't versatility, it is just I always have this while I can be this that and the other.
4. It isn't just the shameless strategy shuffle which make them good at every brawling strategy for little or no cost. It is the fact it has no real flavor hooks or utility. If you want any of that you better start hacking away at what you have. Honestly it would have been better if the theme was more like trying to be Captain Armstrong from FMA without the alchemy.

[NeoSeraphi]

Haha the theme is Udyr from League of Legends, so I have a very clear flavor hook and mechanic.

[NeoSeraphi]

Alright, another overhaul. The monks stances no longer let him ignore ki costs.

[Amnoriath]

Ah, okay now I see. I don't play that game so I didn't know. Well given that the original is fairly straight forward I can't really think of much to make it feel more rounded. It is much better now so if you want your Monk to be that it should be fine.