Does Bestow Curse cause ability damage, ability drain, or just a permanent penalty?

[realbombchu]

I've never had this come up before. What is the nature of the ability decrease caused by Bestow Curse? If Bestow Curse is applied to Intelligence, and just causes a permanent penalty, does the character lose skill points like Intelligence drain? The spell itself just says it is a "decrease," which is unclear. I figured you all might know. Thanks for your help.

[Flickerdart]

A decrease is neither damage nor drain; much like losing Constitution from Raise Dead, it cannot be healed (unless the curse is lifted). Your character would indeed gain fewer skill points per level, but skill points are never changed retroactively so your invested ones would be fine.

[realbombchu]

A decrease is neither damage nor drain; much like losing Constitution from Raise Dead, it cannot be healed (unless the curse is lifted). Your character would indeed gain fewer skill points per level, but skill points are never changed retroactively so your invested ones would be fine.

Yes, in v.3.5, but in Pathfinder, skill points are changed retroactively. I wish I had a source for you on that, but I saw it on the Paizo boards from one of the designers. I understand the nature of an ability penalty, I'm just not sure that Bestow Curse is a penalty. Thank you though.

[Psyren]

It is a penalty - this means that if something removes or suppresses the curse, the score returns to normal immediately without needing a Restoration or similar magic as well.

I'm not sure how it works in 3.5, but in Pathfinder, anything that affects your ability scores for 24 hours or more will start affecting derivative attributes (like skill ranks or bonus spell slots.) The curse would do the same if it lingered that long.

[realbombchu]

I'm not sure how it works in 3.5, but in Pathfinder, anything that affects your ability scores for 24 hours or more will start affecting derivative attributes (like skill ranks or bonus spell slots.) The curse would do the same if it lingered that long.

I'm not sure about that. I know the rule you're talking about, but it says under the section on ability damage, drain, and penalties that a penalty counts as damage, not drain, so it shouldn't affect your skill points like Intelligence drain does. It would, of course, affect things like Knowledge skill checks, Spellcraft checks, etc. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure about that. I know the rule you're talking about, but it says under the section on ability damage, drain, and penalties that a penalty counts as damage, not drain, so it shouldn't affect your skill points like Intelligence drain does. It would, of course, affect things like Knowledge skill checks, Spellcraft checks, etc. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

The reason for the difference is that ability damage generally heals on its own. Thus it's easier to not bother recalculating things since it goes away eventually. A curse however is usually just as permanent as drain - it sticks around until something external to the victim (like a spell) gets rid of it.

[atemu1234]

I don't know if it affects skill points, TBH.

[realbombchu]

I don't know if it affects skill points, TBH.

Ha ha ha, I appreciate your honesty. :smallsmile:

I could see it affecting your skill points if you treat a decrease as drain, because they are both more or less permanent until dealt with, but the section on adjusting the effects of your altered ability scores after 24 hours is talking about bonuses, I think. Penalties are another thing and have their own rules. Take stacking for example.

And it says in the Ability Damage, Drain, and Penalties section that a penalty is treated as damage, not drain, and Intelligence damage does not alter skill points. It does not make a distinction for long-lasting or even permanent Intelligence damage.

Thank you for all your help so far everyone. The answer may be impossible to really know without asking the designers for an official stance because of the word "decrease" in the spell, which isn't defined as a kind of reduction elsewhere. (At least, as far as I know.)

[Crake]

A decrease is neither damage nor drain; much like losing Constitution from Raise Dead, it cannot be healed (unless the curse is lifted). Your character would indeed gain fewer skill points per level, but skill points are never changed retroactively so your invested ones would be fine.

I'm 99% sure that magical changes to your intelligence score don't affect your skill point gains in 3.5, same way wearing a headband of int at levelup doesn't give you extra skillpoints.

Edit: Upon further inspection, it would seem I am wrong. It seems that magical effects on your int score not affecting skillpoint gain is not a general rule, but specifically part of fox's cunning/headband of int. Guess I should just add that to the list of houserules I have, along with retroactive skillpoints :smalltongue:

[realbombchu]

I am using Pathfinder rules, not v.3.5, just so you all know.

[Callin]

I would say its just as if those points in Int disappeared. If you had a 20 Int and got smacked with this you would now have a 14. Its Permanent so yea you lose all benefits of Int 20 including skill points (I myself would just have you apply a minus to said skills equaling the lost amount of skill points up to and including not being trained in something if dropping to 0 skill points in said skill. Just to avoid the hassle of remembering where you took skill points from should you get a Remove Curse.)