Player suicide bomb. Ideas/stories.

[The Shadowdove]

Hey everyone,

I have the desire to hear what kind of kamikaze/suicide antics you guys can think of. I may use it later in my games!

Here is what inspired this...

Last night my parties warlock held a large glass bottle of an explosive oil up to the shifter druid that was about to take him out after downing the text of the party. He then eldritch blasted it point blank. Not only did it explode, the blast also went through and slammed the druid for extra damage.
Ironically, he killed the party's bard, and failed to kill himself despite going unconscious. And the best form druid barely maintained consciousness.

So they lost. They actually didn't despair because it was a humorous and very like our warlock since everyone knew he was an unpredictable selfish ass with too much pride... So when he decided he was taking everyone with him it was a very "ah $&€# " moment .

Let's heat your ideas and stories!!

I look forward to it.

-Dove

[JNAProductions]

Step 1: Wildshape into a fly.

Step 2: Fly into someone's mouth.

Step 3: Let the DM try to figure out who dies when you revert to human. (Or, for extra fun, go straight to elephant form from this.)

[PotatoGolem]

So my players are holed up in a town that's being besieged by goblins, bugbears, and hobgoblins, and they have a Necklace of Fireballs. Battle is going ok, mostly shooting at bugbears off the walls, coming up with illusions and such to drive off the goblin rabble. Paladin tries throwing a Fireball behind his back. Aims poorly, cooks some goblins severely and himself+defenders slightly.

There's a group assaulting the gate that won't budge. PCs are mostly on another part of the wall, and the NPC "guards" (farmers with bows) aren't doing great. So the paladin (remembering his previous great plan) decides that it's time for more Fireball. He goes out, runs to the middle of the goblins, and throws a Fireball at his own feet. Killed a bunch of goblins, drives off the rest, leaves him at 2 hp.

Later in the same siege, he dove off the walls on top of a hobgoblin testudo while clenching another Fireball in his fist. Orcs can ignore death once a day, and he'll be damned if he's not going to make the most of that fact.

[Eslin]

Level 2 conjurer, create ten pounds of the sun. Explosion will take out most of the surrounding countryside.

[RedMage125]

Level 2 conjurer, create ten pounds of the sun. Explosion will take out most of the surrounding countryside.

That assumes that sun in a D&D world is, in fact, a giant ball of gas burning in space with a planet that rotates around it in a fashion like real world Earth.

This is a fantasy setting, where the sun may literally be the chariot of Apollo being pulled across a giant track in the sky each day. Or just a moving ball of light and warmth, put there by one of the gods, no bigger than it appears because it's not actually that far away from the earth.

Not that your suggestion is a bad one, just that it assumes certain real-world parallels are in place that I don't think are necessarily always true in a fantasy setting.

[Eslin]

That assumes that sun in a D&D world is, in fact, a giant ball of gas burning in space with a planet that rotates around it in a fashion like real world Earth.

This is a fantasy setting, where the sun may literally be the chariot of Apollo being pulled across a giant track in the sky each day. Or just a moving ball of light and warmth, put there by one of the gods, no bigger than it appears because it's not actually that far away from the earth.

Not that your suggestion is a bad one, just that it assumes certain real-world parallels are in place that I don't think are necessarily always true in a fantasy setting.

It's a pretty good assumption. If you remove the sun you have to change aspect after aspect to get the world coherent, you need to change and justify heaps of different things and spend huge amounts of effort making it all internally consistent - and you do all this for no good reason, since we have a perfectly good solar system setup to be copied.

[RedMage125]

It's a pretty good assumption. If you remove the sun you have to change aspect after aspect to get the world coherent, you need to change and justify heaps of different things and spend huge amounts of effort making it all internally consistent - and you do all this for no good reason, since we have a perfectly good solar system setup to be copied.

...Unless you're playing in a world based of mythology wherin the world may or may not be round, gravity works because the gods say it does and no one questions it. The sun is Apollo riding across the sky everyday, everyone knows it (Apollo certainly does), the moon is his sister, Artemis, and that's that.

Like I said, your idea could very well be a good one (wouldn't fly in my game, but hey...), it just may not be suitable in all settings. D&D is FANTASY, and "it's magic" or "the gods made it this way" and "a wizard did it" are perfectly sound and reasonable reasonings for the way things are the way they are.

No DM "has to" change aspect after aspect to make the world coherent. Not everyone works out the petty niggling details of how far away their planet is from the sun, the size of the planet, rotational speed and so on. I have a pretty well detailed campaign setting and I don't bother with those details. If a level 2 wizard attempted something like that, the payer would have to work pretty hard to justify to me how his character even has knowledge of anything along the lines of what the sun is composed of. Especially since the creation story of my world goes something along the lines of "Overdeity created Light and Darkness in the Early Days of Creation. These forces became self-aware in his presence, and called themselves Adonathiel (Light) and Asharaska (Darkness). Adonathiel and Asharaska were opposites, but not enemies (at first). In tandem, they brought forth Creation and Life. In doing so, other gods were born (goddess of life, goddess of magic, god of wild nature, etc.). Adonathiel lit up the sky (created the sun) to shine its light upon the world, and it was this that began the schism with his dark sister. She loathed the light and when Adonathiel would not extinguish it, she limited its time on Creation. Over time, the conflict between these two gave birth to another deity (god of war)." And so on. The sun in my game was created and set in the sky by Adonathiel, god of Light. Do I worry about whether or not it's a star like ours IRL? No, and if a player attempted to decide that for me by attempting something like this, he'd have to do some very fast, very convincing talking to make me believe that his character was privy to a factoid about my universe that most people have no interest in learning about. By 5e Standards we're talking about an Intelligence check (gaining proficiency only if he has proficiency with an astrologer's kit) at a DC over 25, maybe even 30. If he fails, then his character does NOT know anything about the composition of the sun, distance from Earth, etc. And I go safely back to ignoring that particular element.

Let me repeat, one more time, so you don't get defensive. The idea works, assuming a cosmology similar to our own, and assuming that the character has in-character knowledge of that cosmology sufficient to act on that knowledge.

I think the first assumption is not necessarily a given, however. Also, on a personal note, even if it was true and the character had that kind of knowledge, I think 2nd level is too green to be able to wield the kind of power it would take to create that.

[Eslin]

...Unless you're playing in a world based of mythology wherin the world may or may not be round, gravity works because the gods say it does and no one questions it. The sun is Apollo riding across the sky everyday, everyone knows it (Apollo certainly does), the moon is his sister, Artemis, and that's that.

Like I said, your idea could very well be a good one (wouldn't fly in my game, but hey...), it just may not be suitable in all settings. D&D is FANTASY, and "it's magic" or "the gods made it this way" and "a wizard did it" are perfectly sound and reasonable reasonings for the way things are the way they are.

No DM "has to" change aspect after aspect to make the world coherent. Not everyone works out the petty niggling details of how far away their planet is from the sun, the size of the planet, rotational speed and so on. I have a pretty well detailed campaign setting and I don't bother with those details. If a level 2 wizard attempted something like that, the payer would have to work pretty hard to justify to me how his character even has knowledge of anything along the lines of what the sun is composed of. Especially since the creation story of my world goes something along the lines of "Overdeity created Light and Darkness in the Early Days of Creation. These forces became self-aware in his presence, and called themselves Adonathiel (Light) and Asharaska (Darkness). Adonathiel and Asharaska were opposites, but not enemies (at first). In tandem, they brought forth Creation and Life. In doing so, other gods were born (goddess of life, goddess of magic, god of wild nature, etc.). Adonathiel lit up the sky (created the sun) to shine its light upon the world, and it was this that began the schism with his dark sister. She loathed the light and when Adonathiel would not extinguish it, she limited its time on Creation. Over time, the conflict between these two gave birth to another deity (god of war)." And so on. The sun in my game was created and set in the sky by Adonathiel, god of Light. Do I worry about whether or not it's a star like ours IRL? No, and if a player attempted to decide that for me by attempting something like this, he'd have to do some very fast, very convincing talking to make me believe that his character was privy to a factoid about my universe that most people have no interest in learning about. By 5e Standards we're talking about an Intelligence check (gaining proficiency only if he has proficiency with an astrologer's kit) at a DC over 25, maybe even 30. If he fails, then his character does NOT know anything about the composition of the sun, distance from Earth, etc. And I go safely back to ignoring that particular element.

Let me repeat, one more time, so you don't get defensive. The idea works, assuming a cosmology similar to our own, and assuming that the character has in-character knowledge of that cosmology sufficient to act on that knowledge.

I think the first assumption is not necessarily a given, however. Also, on a personal note, even if it was true and the character had that kind of knowledge, I think 2nd level is too green to be able to wield the kind of power it would take to create that.

Well yeah, that's kind of the point. The second level conjuration ability becomes incredibly broken when you apply physics to it, though at least with the sun thing the wizard also instantly kills himself. Regarding knowledge of the setting, I'd go with hermit every time and ask for a bunch of knowledge about how the universe works, not sure why more people don't try stuff like that.

[RedMage125]

Well yeah, that's kind of the point. The second level conjuration ability becomes incredibly broken when you apply physics to it, though at least with the sun thing the wizard also instantly kills himself. Regarding knowledge of the setting, I'd go with hermit every time and ask for a bunch of knowledge about how the universe works, not sure why more people don't try stuff like that.

...The "secret" that the hermit knows is entirely up to the DM.

Knowledge about stars (such as their composition and temperature) and that the sun is one is not something that lends itself to most heroic fantasy. The PC does not get to determine what the secret is, or even the base subject matter of the secret.

The current campaign I'm running I kind of started off the cuff, flying by the seat of my pants. I've got plot and story moving now, but my first few sessions were sort of planned only a short time in advance. I told my players that if they wanted to pick the hermit background, they were going to have to wait a few sessions before I worked out the "secret", since I didn't have any ready. And I'm certainly not going to let the player dictate what it is. Not because I have to control it, but because there's so little benefit. Outdoorsmen get great benefits when travelling and navigating. Acolytes get free healing and shelter. Criminals get a contact within a guild or network of some kind. Soldiers get automatic pull with NPCs. I'd want any player in my game who picked the hermit background to get a benefit that was going to benefit them in some way. Given the nature of the background feature, it would be something along the lines of something prophetic or related to a greater goings on of the campaign story.

As for why more people don't try stuff like that...given the example you created and showing what you could and would do with it, I'm glad they don't.

[xyianth]

The second level conjuration ability becomes incredibly broken when you apply physics to it, though at least with the sun thing the wizard also instantly kills himself.

So that's what happened to all the wizard academies! Seriously, I may use that for a campaign world where burned out ruins of academies long forgotten dot the countryside.

[Eslin]

...The "secret" that the hermit knows is entirely up to the DM.

Knowledge about stars (such as their composition and temperature) and that the sun is one is not something that lends itself to most heroic fantasy. The PC does not get to determine what the secret is, or even the base subject matter of the secret.

The current campaign I'm running I kind of started off the cuff, flying by the seat of my pants. I've got plot and story moving now, but my first few sessions were sort of planned only a short time in advance. I told my players that if they wanted to pick the hermit background, they were going to have to wait a few sessions before I worked out the "secret", since I didn't have any ready. And I'm certainly not going to let the player dictate what it is. Not because I have to control it, but because there's so little benefit. Outdoorsmen get great benefits when travelling and navigating. Acolytes get free healing and shelter. Criminals get a contact within a guild or network of some kind. Soldiers get automatic pull with NPCs. I'd want any player in my game who picked the hermit background to get a benefit that was going to benefit them in some way. Given the nature of the background feature, it would be something along the lines of something prophetic or related to a greater goings on of the campaign story.

As for why more people don't try stuff like that...given the example you created and showing what you could and would do with it, I'm glad they don't.

Acquisition and analysis of information is the most powerful weapon we have (see werebear, which can be turned from a curse into a widespread benefit to society with thought and planning) - strip mysteries down to known facts, use those facts to beat those who treat them like mysteries. If someone had a character be an intelligent hermit who has gone into seclusion with a bunch of pencil, telescopes, magic measuring instruments and a determination to study how the universe works (seclusion doesn't have to be wilderness, he could just be spending all his time in his tower watching the movement of the stars and making notes) then what feature can you really give him that isn't a bunch of information on how stuff works?

[RedMage125]

Acquisition and analysis of information is the most powerful weapon we have (see werebear, which can be turned from a curse into a widespread benefit to society with thought and planning) - strip mysteries down to known facts, use those facts to beat those who treat them like mysteries. If someone had a character be an intelligent hermit who has gone into seclusion with a bunch of pencil, telescopes, magic measuring instruments and a determination to study how the universe works (seclusion doesn't have to be wilderness, he could just be spending all his time in his tower watching the movement of the stars and making notes) then what feature can you really give him that isn't a bunch of information on how stuff works?

A very detailed response with a very in-depth story spun about how someone might be a "hermit" in a manner other than what most people immediately think of when that term comes to mind.

...but completely non-sequitur regarding my point. If the DM decides the "mystery" the hermit is privy to is something else, then it's something else. If the character has such a backstory and wishes to attempt to have his character learn said information, he can make an Intelligence check against the aforementioned DC 30. Didn't make it? Oh well, your character is not privy to said information about the universe and the way it works. The player of the Hermit character doesn't decide what the "secret" is. The DM does. Period. That's it.

But on that note, I think you're giving entirely too much credit toward what can be accomplished with a telescope of the kind permissible with the "default" technology level assumed by most D&D settings. These aren't the advanced telescopes we have today, it's usually two pieces of carefully cut glass in a tube. And EVEN IF he has access to those kinds of materials, if the sun really is Apollo riding through the sky on his chariot, what help will that be towards your purported solution?

Answer: none at all.

Look, you're going to great lengths to defend this idea, and I have no idea why. D&D is FANTASY. Furthermore, magic and divinities are omnipresent. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to assume that things work in the exact same manner as they do in the real world. No adherence to real-world parallels in mandatory in a fantasy setting. Much like objective forces of Good and Evil, which do not exist in our world. You may as well be discussing the physical unlikelyhood of a dragon's ability to fly. It works because Reasons. It's Fantasy, and therefore, that's good enough.

I've already acknowledged that IF the sun/earth relationship is similar to ours and IF the PC is privy to that knowledge and IF the DM decides that's an acceptable use of the Conjurer's 2nd level ability, then your suggestion works fine. My only point was that not all settings work on those assumptions, and those assumptions are not "givens" that are true in every setting. So any individual's mileage may vary with regards to how well that works.

[xyianth]

But on that note, I think you're giving entirely too much credit toward what can be accomplished with a telescope of the kind permissible with the "default" technology level assumed by most D&D settings. These aren't the advanced telescopes we have today, it's usually two pieces of carefully cut glass in a tube.

In fairness, Galileo made some pretty spectacular discoveries/observations with telescopes that fit that description. That said, I agree with your larger point that not all campaigns will use realistic models of the universe, and I, as a DM, definitely wouldn't bend over backwards to support a player's concept if the intent is to go around nuking the countryside by conjuring the sun. That's more along the lines of characters that look up to find that rocks fall on them from out of clear blue sky and whoops, time for a new character. :smallamused:

[Eslin]

In fairness, Galileo made some pretty spectacular discoveries/observations with telescopes that fit that description. That said, I agree with your larger point that not all campaigns will use realistic models of the universe, and I, as a DM, definitely wouldn't bend over backwards to support a player's concept if the intent is to go around nuking the countryside by conjuring the sun. That's more along the lines of characters that look up to find that rocks fall on them from out of clear blue sky and whoops, time for a new character. :smallamused:

What would be the point of that being your intention? It's just an elaborate method of committing suicide, wouldn't assume that to be many character's goals.


A very detailed response with a very in-depth story spun about how someone might be a "hermit" in a manner other than what most people immediately think of when that term comes to mind.
Nope, just recounting one of my player's backgrounds. Another hermit is a druid working on creating warforged to stop people destroying the environment, eco-friendly sentient soldiers.


...but completely non-sequitur regarding my point. If the DM decides the "mystery" the hermit is privy to is something else, then it's something else. If the character has such a backstory and wishes to attempt to have his character learn said information, he can make an Intelligence check against the aforementioned DC 30. Didn't make it? Oh well, your character is not privy to said information about the universe and the way it works. The player of the Hermit character doesn't decide what the "secret" is. The DM does. Period. That's it.
Sure. So what secrets would you give the aforementioned character?


But on that note, I think you're giving entirely too much credit toward what can be accomplished with a telescope of the kind permissible with the "default" technology level assumed by most D&D settings. These aren't the advanced telescopes we have today, it's usually two pieces of carefully cut glass in a tube. And EVEN IF he has access to those kinds of materials, if the sun really is Apollo riding through the sky on his chariot, what help will that be towards your purported solution?
No, but it means he can probably gain a bunch of details about Apollo and the chariot - whether that turns out to be useful or not is based on the player's ingenuity, without knowing more I'd assume the best course of action would be to figure out how all that energy is being created and try to recreate it for yourself. It's not just the telescope here, the player's specific words to me were along the lines of 'a bunch of magical or technological stuff, whatever a medieval dude with high intelligence trying to figure out stuff about the universe could get his hands on'.


Answer: none at all.

Look, you're going to great lengths to defend this idea, and I have no idea why. D&D is FANTASY. Furthermore, magic and divinities are omnipresent. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to assume that things work in the exact same manner as they do in the real world. No adherence to real-world parallels in mandatory in a fantasy setting. Much like objective forces of Good and Evil, which do not exist in our world. You may as well be discussing the physical unlikelyhood of a dragon's ability to fly. It works because Reasons. It's Fantasy, and therefore, that's good enough.

I've already acknowledged that IF the sun/earth relationship is similar to ours and IF the PC is privy to that knowledge and IF the DM decides that's an acceptable use of the Conjurer's 2nd level ability, then your suggestion works fine. My only point was that not all settings work on those assumptions, and those assumptions are not "givens" that are true in every setting. So any individual's mileage may vary with regards to how well that works.
I'm not defending this idea in particular. Nuking yourself is not a particularly interesting character concept, and it hasn't happened in any of my games. Implying that fantasy doesn't have to make sense is kind of ridiculous, however - fiction still has to be internally consistent, and the base assumption is that it uses our rules except for the ones it shows you it's changing. Otherwise it's just an arbitrary mess.

[RedMage125]

In fairness, Galileo made some pretty spectacular discoveries/observations with telescopes that fit that description. That said, I agree with your larger point that not all campaigns will use realistic models of the universe, and I, as a DM, definitely wouldn't bend over backwards to support a player's concept if the intent is to go around nuking the countryside by conjuring the sun. That's more along the lines of characters that look up to find that rocks fall on them from out of clear blue sky and whoops, time for a new character. :smallamused:

Galileo discovered that we have a heliocentric planetary system, as opposed to a terracentric one, yes. He did not know the exact distance between the sun and Earth, nor did he know for certain that the sun was a giant ball of gas burning in space at temperatures that would literally ignite the entire atmosphere of Earth.

But thank you for addressing the meat of my point, and I'm glad you agree. That's all I was initially trying to say, and yet he keeps defending the proposal.

[Eslin]

Galileo discovered that we have a heliocentric planetary system, as opposed to a terracentric one, yes. He did not know the exact distance between the sun and Earth, nor did he know for certain that the sun was a giant ball of gas burning in space at temperatures that would literally ignite the entire atmosphere of Earth.

But thank you for addressing the meat of my point, and I'm glad you agree. That's all I was initially trying to say, and yet he keeps defending the proposal.

Pretty sure I'm not. I'm defending creating 10 pounds of the sun if the character has the knowledge in a universe that works like ours - you can have the universe work a different way, but that puts a pretty heavy burden on you as a DM because it's then your responsibility to work out something internally consistent, since you've removed the usual consistent framework. If you're cool with that, fine, but it's a disservice to the players if you instead make the rules inconsistent and arbitrary. It's a bit like houseruling in that regard, I suppose.

[RedMage125]

Nope, just recounting one of my player's backgrounds. Another hermit is a druid working on creating warforged to stop people destroying the environment, eco-friendly sentient soldiers.
Well, it's still pretty creative.


Sure. So what secrets would you give the aforementioned character?

Probably something relevant to the campaign, like I said. Something he could get some use out of. Truth be told, I'd work WITH a character who wanted the Hermit background to not only decide what secret he learns, but how he learned it. And if characters are still in the amorphous stage of character creation, I expect him to be flexible. I'm not going to just bow down to some rigidly inflexible character backstory that doesn't work in my world.

For example, your aforementioned druid...there's no warforged in my world, and no creation forges to create sentient living constructs, and no "ancient blueprints" off which to base a modern construction (like what happened in Eberron). So...no. That backstory would need to be completely scrapped.



No, but it means he can probably gain a bunch of details about Apollo and the chariot - whether that turns out to be useful or not is based on the player's ingenuity, without knowing more I'd assume the best course of action would be to figure out how all that energy is being created and try to recreate it for yourself. It's not just the telescope here, the player's specific words to me were along the lines of 'a bunch of magical or technological stuff, whatever a medieval dude with high intelligence trying to figure out stuff about the universe could get his hands on'.

You are just bound and determined to insist that this idea of yours MUST be universally accepted, aren't you?

Why?



I'm not defending this idea in particular. Nuking yourself is not a particularly interesting character concept, and it hasn't happened in any of my games. Implying that fantasy doesn't have to make sense is kind of ridiculous, however - fiction still has to be internally consistent, and the base assumption is that it uses our rules except for the ones it shows you it's changing. Otherwise it's just an arbitrary mess.

It's really not. Details like that usually bear no consequence whatsoever on an actual game, so there's no "mess". I could say that the sun is a god pulling a chariot across the sky and that becomes true for my world. There's no need to scientifically break down every possible "what if" that would cascade from that by applying real-world effects of the sun's position and gravitational pull to my world. If someone asks how gravity works if the planet's not spinning, the answer is "gods made it that way". BAM. Done.

You are defending this idea in particular. My whole point is that not all fantasy worlds are modeled after ours, and that idea may not fly for any number of reasons. I have already acknowledged that IF one assumes that everything your idea hinges on to be true then it would work. All I was saying is that those assumptions are not RAW, they are not necessarily true in all settings. "Because Magic" is a perfectly viable scientific explanation in D&D.

[RedMage125]

Pretty sure I'm not. I'm defending creating 10 pounds of the sun if the character has the knowledge in a universe that works like ours - you can have the universe work a different way, but that puts a pretty heavy burden on you as a DM because it's then your responsibility to work out something internally consistent, since you've removed the usual consistent framework. If you're cool with that, fine, but it's a disservice to the players if you instead make the rules inconsistent and arbitrary. It's a bit like houseruling in that regard, I suppose.

It puts no such burden on the DM. The DM is under absolutely no obligation to come up with every possible niggling detail that could cascade from deviating from real-world assumptions, because those will-in all likelihood-never actually affect the game.

"Because the gods made it this way" is internally consistent enough, and it solves all the questions.

It's only a disservice to players who have a desire to spend more time discussing the astronomical positioning and gravitational impact of celestial (in the stars sense, not angels) bodies than they do in participating in a story of heroic fantasy. Which is exactly 0% of any D&D player I have ever met, played with, spoken to on the forums, or in any way interacted with in the last 17 years of me playing this hobby.

[Eslin]

Well, it's still pretty creative.

Probably something relevant to the campaign, like I said. Something he could get some use out of. Truth be told, I'd work WITH a character who wanted the Hermit background to not only decide what secret he learns, but how he learned it. And if characters are still in the amorphous stage of character creation, I expect him to be flexible. I'm not going to just bow down to some rigidly inflexible character backstory that doesn't work in my world.
'Guy uses intelligence and observation to try to learn as much as he can about how everything works' can be done in any setting, all that varies is the results.


For example, your aforementioned druid...there's no warforged in my world, and no creation forges to create sentient living constructs, and no "ancient blueprints" off which to base a modern construction (like what happened in Eberron). So...no. That backstory would need to be completely scrapped.
There aren't any ancient blueprints in mine, either. People have this weird emphasis on everything being done by people ages ago, despite our best example (humanity) advancing in learning as time went on - it's a bunch of druids figuring out how to imbue constructs with sapience, there's no reason their work has to be based on something ancient.


You are just bound and determined to insist that this idea of yours MUST be universally accepted, aren't you?

Why?
What idea? That observation and analysis yields information? That's pretty universal.


It's really not. Details like that usually bear no consequence whatsoever on an actual game, so there's no "mess". I could say that the sun is a god pulling a chariot across the sky and that becomes true for my world. There's no need to scientifically break down every possible "what if" that would cascade from that by applying real-world effects of the sun's position and gravitational pull to my world. If someone asks how gravity works if the planet's not spinning, the answer is "gods made it that way". BAM. Done.

You are defending this idea in particular. My whole point is that not all fantasy worlds are modeled after ours, and that idea may not fly for any number of reasons. I have already acknowledged that IF one assumes that everything your idea hinges on to be true then it would work. All I was saying is that those assumptions are not RAW, they are not necessarily true in all settings. "Because Magic" is a perfectly viable scientific explanation in D&D.
Yes, you can. You can make up the what and the why as much as you want, you just need to have consistent details on the how.


It puts no such burden on the DM. The DM is under absolutely no obligation to come up with every possible niggling detail that could cascade from deviating from real-world assumptions, because those will-in all likelihood-never actually affect the game.

"Because the gods made it this way" is internally consistent enough, and it solves all the questions.

It's only a disservice to players who have a desire to spend more time discussing the astronomical positioning and gravitational impact of celestial (in the stars sense, not angels) bodies than they do in participating in a story of heroic fantasy. Which is exactly 0% of any D&D player I have ever met, played with, spoken to on the forums, or in any way interacted with in the last 17 years of me playing this hobby.
"Because the gods made it this way" is fine. It's part of plenty of myths, there are countless universes made out of a god's testicles or an endlessly repeating wheel or whatever. Again, the what and the why can be completely arbitrary if you want them to - how things work, however, has to be consistent, just like the rest of the rules. Works like that for regular game rules, too - you can change the rules, what rules and why is strictly based on your whims, but how they work has to be consistent.

[RedMage125]

Yes, you can. You can make up the what and the why as much as you want, you just need to have consistent details on the how.


"Because the gods made it this way" is fine. It's part of plenty of myths, there are countless universes made out of a god's testicles or an endlessly repeating wheel or whatever. Again, the what and the why can be completely arbitrary if you want them to - how things work, however, has to be consistent, just like the rest of the rules. Works like that for regular game rules, too - you can change the rules, what rules and why is strictly based on your whims, but how they work has to be consistent.

Okay, and what makes you think that it wouldn't be?

All your previous statements seemed to imply that you were saying that if we don't follow real-world assumptions that all of a sudden, consistency is somehow impossible and players are rendered a great disservice as a result.

[Eslin]

Okay, and what makes you think that it wouldn't be?

All your previous statements seemed to imply that you were saying that if we don't follow real-world assumptions that all of a sudden, consistency is somehow impossible and players are rendered a great disservice as a result.

No, consistency just requires more work. I'm not saying it's not rewarding - Brandon Sanderson basically makes all his money on the strength of his fantasy setup - but it is a lot harder than just saying things work like they do in real life. The base assumption to fantasy is 'as in our world, but' - people assume 1.0 gravity, a nitrogen-oxygen atmosphere, four seasons, a planet orbiting a sun etc. They don't necessarily think about it in those words, but those are basic assumptions that people rarely realise they have unless the setting changes them. Those things all work in a believable, internally consistent way with everything (for lack of a better term) worked out for you. Changing that requires a lot of thought and effort, and I can't see why it would be necessary unless it's inherent to how you want your setting to work.

[RedMage125]

This is all well and good, but we've derailed this thread enough. Let's call it quits for now. Hopefully someone else has something constructive to add to the OP's original intent with this thread.

[Pseudotim]

On the matter of sun-summoning (sorry)

Being able to conjure a 1 foot cube of dense gas mixture isn't all that impressive. The sun is HUGE, it's combined mass it the impressive thing about it, and what keeps it going.

I like the craftiness of the concept, and beyond the problems a DM could muster around not being able to clearly see and recognise the comprising elements of an astral body many millions of miles away, you'd still in essence be summoning nothing more than a low level fireball. When a higher level ability creates a bigger fireball you can safely assume it's evoking more superheated magical gas than your minor conjuration can.

DM to rule on its strength, but 1d8 fire damage in a single 5 foot hex, dexterity save for half to the hexes around seems more than fair to me.

Other minor conjuration uses:

You'd be better off finding some Uranium if you can, as you'll only need 11 pounds of that to go nuclear. Can be done in two rounds for a huge boom, or at least eventual death by cancer.

Or if you're not lucky enough to have fissile elements in your realm you could fill an indestructible sphere with acid, roll it in front of you and be a living/dead man's switch.

[kaoskonfety]

On the list of "I conjure things I cannot know exist/may not be that would likely turn into hilarious suicide":

dioxygen difluoride (O2F2)
hydrogen fluoride gas
https://what-if.xkcd.com/40/

True Polymorphing into...
Francium Elemental? (so reactive it is nearly impossible to observe, so unstable its half-life is 22 minutes, but it does "naturally" exist, believed to be liquid in warm temperatures 27c, 80f) you would disintgrate, melt and explode in short order, pick you poison - well before the spell expired. Most of the side products of your swift demise are highly toxic or radioactive or on fire. On the bright side someone might get to see what the stuff looks like. What happens to you if you poly morph into something and it then, due to its nature - transforms into something else? Well DM?



Reading this next bit over, this may come off as adversarial - this is not my intent... but I do not agree with the "basically earth" idea. This is an outline of my reasoning.

The idea that the players assume that, and that their characters know that, the D&D fantasy world is a globe of mostly rock (much of it molten), orbiting a non- descript star, adrift in an uncaring cosmos, is what doesn't make sense.

There are gods, souls are discreet things, morality can be verified, demons can steal your soul, the afterlife is real - I had lunch there, there is elemental fire, I brought you some, "lets go hang out in the ether"... the list continues on "things you can prove in a default D&D arrangement that cannot be proved here/ are wrong". Shoe horning in conventional world physics, chemistry and biology is what I've found starts breaking it apart.

You are as likely to be breathing an oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere as you are to be breathing capital A - Air. Sure, casual interactions function as we see in the real world, it keeps things sane-ish and stop every last thing being an extended explanation of how it works, but why does the magic world need to orbit anything or rotate or be finite?

Are there atoms in D&D? My from the hip DM answer would be - why do you ask? and to seek to provide what the player is looking for without involving nailing down physics. At a glance it in fact appears the world is by default composed of the classic 4 elements with a few energy planes tossed in? Does this mean there are no atoms, or that there are also atoms? Is there an elemental plane of tungsten? Cause if so... plans... horrible and wonderful plans.

If the world does works like our world, from the ground up, that's fine, but it being the assumption seems odd.

- A character seeking details on such knowledge natural philosopher wise might make for some neat story telling options/world exploration. Most of my settings are "near Earths" - there is a sun that is not literally a deity, the planet is surrounded by the absence of any matter, including air etc..

- A character that starts knowing that alchemy is a gateway to chemistry and proceeds to invent gunpowder, vaccination, the telephone and pasteurization... um... you did want to play a D&D fantasy game right, kill dragons and stuff? I've got GURPS right over here if you want to start in high fantasy and switch out later to modern or supertech or are just looking for higher realism and settings that actually consider these things.

IF a player asks/takes the appropriate knowledge skills they can be informed on the current beliefs/theories of the day in their region and possibly past theories or what those crazy foreigners think.

For most of the medieval era general beliefs and educated men held: heavier objects fell faster, objects always travelled in straight lines and ducklings were spontaneously generated by marshlands. All of which are naked eye observably false without much effort, let alone a telescope. The people who believed these things didn't curl up and die due to being unable to function. They built nations, fought wars, had kids and generally lived.

------------------------

As someone else mentioned 10 lbs of the sun is a big old pile of hydrogen - HOT hydrogen - but unless you are intensity lucky/unlucky you are not going to be grabbing a fusion explosion as it begins. The sun is freaking huge and varies alot throughout in both temperature and composition - which part do you summon? I'm not sure what ten pounds holding that sort of temperature would do - but I do know what I'd do to the clever bugger trying it one way or another, even assuming it made of warm radiant life giving gold.
The Morning Lord is not pleased with your thieving blasphemy heathen! Boom.... suicide completed. Good job.

[Galen]

The second level conjuration ability becomes incredibly broken when you apply physics to it.
Reminds me of an old joke.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this!"
"Then don't do that."

Are you in any way compelled to apply physics to a second level conjuration to make a point and break the game? No, you're not. So just don't.

[Eslin]

Reminds me of an old joke.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this!"
"Then don't do that."

Are you in any way compelled to apply physics to a second level conjuration to make a point and break the game? No, you're not. So just don't.

But what if I want to kill myself and everyone else within a large radius?

[xyianth]

But what if I want to kill myself and everyone else within a large radius?

Wait til level 5 and use fireball like you are supposed to. Or be a wild sorcerer and hope for the best.(worst?)

[Galen]

But what if I want to kill myself and everyone else within a large radius?Seek professional counseling.

[hawklost]

these came from games that were using 3.x rules and required DM to agree with the 'cool' factor of them.

1) Smashed a necklace of fireballs against a Drow Rogue to keep him from getting his Evasion ability (took full damage for him and me automatically)

2) Convinced my DM to allow me to use my Favored Soul of Talos to burn all the rest of his spell slots at once in exchange for burning his soul out of exsistance (No Rez possible, only the party ever remembered he existed then). Used it at level 17 to delay an unstoppable army of undead from conquering a dwarven mountain home (blew up the top half of the mountain though)

[Person_Man]

That assumes that sun in a D&D world is, in fact, a giant ball of gas burning in space with a planet that rotates around it in a fashion like real world Earth.

Catgirl Killing Nitpick: The sun is made out of plasma (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQyCkwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DsLk GSV9WDMA&ei=LK7bVIj1NIa2yQSb6oGoAg&usg=AFQjCNGloYXSuRSEs6GV6iss9AUvO7CE0Q&bvm=bv.85761416,d.aWw), not gas. They're different states of matter.

[RedMage125]

kaoskonfeti, that was a great post. So much win.

[Knaight]

I've seen one instance of an actual, literal suicide vest (not in 5e). The character was a fence for a criminal organization, and his bar was one of the places they operated. He had his thumbs in a few of their pies, and was involved with smuggling on top of fencing stolen goods. There was a character arc involving changing loyalties and the worsening of said criminal organization, as they got involved with a really sketchy secret society. Eventually he goes to confront them, with the explosive vest on as backup. Eventually, the character had to actually use the explosive vest, hurtling into his former comrades and blowing himself up to save his new friends and allies.