I think its a challenge!

[arkangel111]

So for those that haven't heard, PFS is going core-only as if it wasn't already super limiting they are pushing it even more.

So Lets get together and break PFS-Core only. Wizard would be a normal answer on these forums but most of what makes the wizard OP is hindered dramatically by the time constraints on missions. that also might push the Cleric out but cleric's are still decent even without prep. With the low point buy and the way wild shape has been changed druid is likely gone too. that pretty much leaves us with the mundane classes, but since combat is all PFS really cares about we might be OK.

So lets do this. If you have an idea you think breaks the game even if i ruled it out already post here and we'll try to come up with the most broken core only PFS character possible.

[(Un)Inspired]

PFS is going core only? Why on earth wold they do that?

[Vhaidara]

PFS is going core only? Why on earth wold they do that?

Because Paizo realized that they were actually going to release fun and innovative classes with Occult Adventures, and those have no place in PFS?

[(Un)Inspired]

Because Paizo realized that they were actually going to release fun and innovative classes with Occult Adventures, and those have no place in PFS?

But...but... I think the investigator is really cool. Same with the spirit guide oracle. They just released them. Why wouldn't they encourage people to play them? I don't understand.

What is their company line about why they're switching to core only?

[arkangel111]

because "too many people are complaining that the new stuff is making for some broken character's"

Hence why I wanna break the game WITH core only.

[Tommy_Dude]

They aren't switching to Core Only. There are two options now. PFS and CORE PFS. If you play PFS you still get all your options and fancy toys. If you play Core... you get the Core Rulebook. :) hope that helps. (of course this still creates other issues, such as whether your region is large enough to offer a weekly table for both modes of play, but eh.)

[Vhaidara]

So basically, what I said?


Because Paizo realized that they were actually going to release fun and innovative classes with Occult Adventures, and those have no place in PFS?

On topic, I'd say human is your ideal race. Boost your Int, grab a feat (toughness may actually not be a bad call if starting at level 1). Go Conjurer, grab Grease and Summon Monster I. Stay up to date on your SM option.

[Kurald Galain]

So for those that haven't heard, PFS is going core-only as if it wasn't already super limiting they are pushing it even more.

Yeah. I think this is a bad move as (1) core is actually the least well-designed and least balanced part of Pathfinder; (2) those recent splatbooks that most players are excited about aren't core; and (3) popular options like in particular archetypes aren't core either.

[arkangel111]

From what my venture lieutenant said is that if someone at the table is core-only then everyone needs to be core-only. Additionally scenario's can be redone in core-only so a lot of the people I game with are gonna get to replay some scenario's they enjoyed. It is sounding like, at least for now, half our tables are moving to core-only. Which means inevitably I will be playing core-only due to the limited number of tables.

I haven't found any Archetypes that fit the core-only criteria, I believe most, if not all, of them are from ultimate combat or later.

Keledrath-
I'm not sure a summoner wizard would work too well in PFS. summons last for rnd/lvl and take a full round to cast. Additionally, PFS games rarely go beyond 10, having to wait half your levels (5) to start getting powerful or keep summons for an entire combat seems a little lacking in my opinion. I think you do have it right though a 20 starting stat and likely human is the best way to go, perhaps with decent skill points since PFS does focus on skills quite a bit. Also, since PFS has un-optimized NPC's it is not uncommon for weird skill points, such as acrobatics to be max on a plate wearing fighter, or at least have enough to negate the best parts of grease. I recently took part in a PFS game where every NPC had handle animal, something our group had minimal ranks in, and in fact one of them was relying purely on CHA.

[Raven777]

Maybe go with a Druid? What about a blockbuster wizard? Mounted archery ranger?

[Spore]

Core as in core line of series or CRB?

[Strormer]

Core as in core line of series or CRB?


They aren't switching to Core Only. There are two options now. PFS and CORE PFS. If you play PFS you still get all your options and fancy toys. If you play Core... you get the Core Rulebook. :) hope that helps. (of course this still creates other issues, such as whether your region is large enough to offer a weekly table for both modes of play, but eh.)

^_^

Now as far as breaking core-only in PFS, I still feel that a well optimized Cleric is the way to go. They're just so powerful for so many situations and you always get the opportunity to plan for what awaits you after the "mission" is assigned at the beginning of a senerio, which effectively makes the Cleric ready for anything. Get just a couple worthwhile wands and you're absolutely golden. If you can afford to have decent INT, the skills are icing on the cake, if something of a needed icing (if you want your Prestige every level, anyway.)

[Psyren]

They aren't switching to Core Only. There are two options now. PFS and CORE PFS. If you play PFS you still get all your options and fancy toys. If you play Core... you get the Core Rulebook. :) hope that helps. (of course this still creates other issues, such as whether your region is large enough to offer a weekly table for both modes of play, but eh.)

This. There are now two lines for PFS - Core Campaign (designed to be simpler for newer or burned out DMs to come back and run, or more of a challenge for players who have tons of splats) - and regular PFS, which still lets you use all your toys. They are not going "core-only."

[Der_DWSage]

I'd actually argue against a Wizard in core-only with PFS, if only because the low levels are going to be quite painful. You want to break things in a noteworthy fashion? You need to slaughter everything that comes your way, and in an unexpected manner.

To that end, I'll recommend a Halfling Fighter with a Riding Dog. As much as I really want to have Human from the get-go, a riding dog doesn't have the same issues that a horse does. Mounted Combat and Ride-By Attack are your feats, and your chosen weapon is a lance. At 1st level, you're not too noteworthy, aside from the fact that you're dealing 2d6+(Modifier*3) damage to everything, and probably moving far enough away from people that they're not getting a counterattack unless they're using ranged weapons. So, comparable to a medium-size Greatsword fighter, except you have a little more mobility.

At 2nd level, you take Spirited Charge, tripling your damage instead of doubling. And at 3rd, you take Power Attack, and all the goodies thereof. Your actual strength matters little at this point, so long as it's above 14-most creatures in level 4 or lower PFS scenarios are going to explode from 3d6+18 (Or average 26) damage, and that's a bare-minimum 14 strength, no magic, and no real shenanigans.

No one's surprised when the Wizard handles a problem. Everyone is surprised when the happy-go-lucky Halfling and his golden retriever make things explode into chunky bits.

[arkangel111]

Strormer-
"...you always get the opportunity to plan for what awaits you after the "mission" is assigned at the beginning of a senerio, which effectively makes the Cleric ready for anything."

where is this rule? I have always been told you plan your spells in the morning, before you get assigned the mission. Everyone at our tables just has a preset selection of spells they roll with, unless they have OOC knowledge of the adventure that is. Its what makes the sorcerer a superior choice at our tables.

Raven777-
I love the druid! I have honestly yet to play one in PF rules, though it was 99% of my characters in 3.5. I know they changed the polymorph and wildshape rules drastically though, so I would have to see one statted out before I could truly judge if its good. Maybe i'll get around to that later today.

Everyone else-
Well my line of thinking is this: Paizo had 2 choices facing them. Either they stop restricting EVERYTHING they put out and encourage you to buy more products, OR they completely ignore their new stuff and restrict you to Core-only, which is free online. They went with the second choice. I honestly Haven't bought anything of theirs that I haven't needed for my campaign. Whenever I am tempted to buy a new product I wait to see what is actually available in PFS to see if anything worth getting is even allowed. 9/10 times everything but the cover art is banned. Since my only PF games are PFS and me DMing, I don't have to buy much, my players will get new stuff or use the SRD.

The sarcasm is because even the cover art is usually banned.

[Strormer]

Everyone is surprised when the happy-go-lucky Halfling and his golden retriever make things explode into chunky bits.

I LOVE THIS!

Bahahahahahaha!

[Psyren]

Well my line of thinking is this: Paizo had 2 choices facing them. Either they stop restricting EVERYTHING they put out and encourage you to buy more products, OR they completely ignore their new stuff and restrict you to Core-only, which is free online. They went with the second choice.

For the umpteenth time, this is wrong. They did both. You can still join a regular PFS table (with everything not on the ban list being legal - Advanced X, Ultimate Y, etc) or a core table (CRB, online traits and PFS pdf only.) You as the player can even do both for each scenario (just not with the same character.)

The full announcement is here (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lh0h?Introducing-the-Core-Campaign) and the discussion page below has more designer rationale and feeback.

[thompur]

Strormer-
"...you always get the opportunity to plan for what awaits you after the "mission" is assigned at the beginning of a senerio, which effectively makes the Cleric ready for anything."

where is this rule? I have always been told you plan your spells in the morning, before you get assigned the mission. Everyone at our tables just has a preset selection of spells they roll with, unless they have OOC knowledge of the adventure that is. Its what makes the sorcerer a superior choice at our tables.

Raven777-
I love the druid! I have honestly yet to play one in PF rules, though it was 99% of my characters in 3.5. I know they changed the polymorph and wildshape rules drastically though, so I would have to see one statted out before I could truly judge if its good. Maybe i'll get around to that later today.

Everyone else-
Well my line of thinking is this: Paizo had 2 choices facing them. Either they stop restricting EVERYTHING they put out and encourage you to buy more products, OR they completely ignore their new stuff and restrict you to Core-only, which is free online. They went with the second choice. I honestly Haven't bought anything of theirs that I haven't needed for my campaign. Whenever I am tempted to buy a new product I wait to see what is actually available in PFS to see if anything worth getting is even allowed. 9/10 times everything but the cover art is banned. Since my only PF games are PFS and me DMing, I don't have to buy much, my players will get new stuff or use the SRD.

The sarcasm is because even the cover art is usually banned.

If the Venture Captain assigning you the mission is Drendle Drang, then you will have been called in the middle of the night, and so have the whole morning to decide on your spells! :smallwink:

[Der_DWSage]

I LOVE THIS!

Bahahahahahaha!

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs26/f/2008/164/1/6/Mera_Prisodel_Halfling_Knight_by_ClassyJess.jpg

[Kudaku]

From what my venture lieutenant said is that if someone at the table is core-only then everyone needs to be core-only. Additionally scenario's can be redone in core-only so a lot of the people I game with are gonna get to replay some scenario's they enjoyed. It is sounding like, at least for now, half our tables are moving to core-only. Which means inevitably I will be playing core-only due to the limited number of tables.

Core-only and PFS are mutually exlusive. If half the tables are going core-only then as far as I can tell you should have the option to play both core and existing mode?

[arkangel111]

Yes psyren I know its either the old way, with a lot of bans but at least stuff outside of core, and core-only. BUT, thats all dependent on what people are running. As a new person to PFS I am practically being forced into core-only. The closest PFS games to me I drive 45 mins to get to, once a week. I have tried starting local games but there is just not enough interest in my area. Most of the good modules, with either good boons or fun adventures have already been played/DM'd by many in the group. In order to replay and get credit for some of the module's people are making core-only in order to take part.

I honestly think they should have went the other way with PFS and drop the limitations. Its not like it ultimately matters, so long as its in the written rules. I find it so annoying that I literally cannot play the character I want. I have wanted to play a goblin since I first read goblinscomic.com years ago, and it has nothing to do with being OP.

[Psyren]

I'm sorry you have to drive so far to get to PFS, but you can't honestly expect them to plan the entire sanctioned play program around people with 45-minute commutes.

I suggest you bribe someone in your area (another player in that store?) to run a standard PFS table in addition to the Core table being run. I personally find it hard to believe that any shop would switch to all Core tables wholesale though, unless they're only running one or something.

And no, removing the entire ban list is not the answer. We don't need things like Blood Money and Synthesist showing up in PFS, nor do we need things like Sacred Geometry making a debut either.

[Strormer]

Before this derails entirely from the original intent, I'm curious what everyone thinks would be the most powerful (optimized) level 1 character for core only PFS.

[Psyren]

Before this derails entirely from the original intent, I'm curious what everyone thinks would be the most powerful (optimized) level 1 character for core only PFS.

As with 3.5 core only, Druid 1 would be hard to beat.

[JDL]

The single most powerful character in a level 1 setting would be the one that can get their allies to function as an intelligent, cohesive tactical unit.

[Psyren]

The single most powerful character in a level 1 setting would be the one that can get their allies to function as an intelligent, cohesive tactical unit.

Since you can't Diplomacy other PCs though, that quality would be independent of the character.

[(Un)Inspired]

Since you can't Diplomacy other PCs though, that quality would be independent of the character.

I think the way to go about it is optimizing diplomacy in RL.

I don't think there are rules against using diplomacy on other players right?

[Psyren]

I think the way to go about it is optimizing diplomacy in RL.

I don't think there are rules against using diplomacy on other players right?

Not at all, though it's almost always more efficient to use it on the GM instead.

[Zanos]

For the umpteenth time, this is wrong. They did both. You can still join a regular PFS table (with everything not on the ban list being legal - Advanced X, Ultimate Y, etc) or a core table (CRB, online traits and PFS pdf only.) You as the player can even do both for each scenario (just not with the same character.)

The full announcement is here (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lh0h?Introducing-the-Core-Campaign) and the discussion page below has more designer rationale and feeback.
If the amount of GMs stays the same but the number of formats increases, that means less game per each individual format. So it is still bad for people who don't like core only, since there will be less total games that they would want to participate in.

It still affects people who wouldn't want or prefer core only, even if the option to play with other materials still exists.

On Topic: As was always the case in core, full casters are the strongest. Cleric and Druid are more well rounded in that they possess decent capacities at things other than being squishy spellcasters, and the Druids AC goes a long way towards breaking the action economy even core. Wizard is still a solid choice, however. You'll get a lot of mileage out of haste and grease.

[(Un)Inspired]

Not at all, though it's almost always more efficient to use it on the GM instead.

Isn't their a feat that let's you effect everyone within 30' with it?

[Kurald Galain]

Before this derails entirely from the original intent, I'm curious what everyone thinks would be the most powerful (optimized) level 1 character for core only PFS.

For level one? Str-20 barbarian with power attack.

Sure, at higher level the casters dominate. But first-level divine spells don't stack up in power against 1d12+13 damage per round straight.

[NightbringerGGZ]

The single most powerful character in a level 1 setting would be the one that can get their allies to function as an intelligent, cohesive tactical unit.

Nah, just go with a high strength barbarian and charge everything. :smallsmile:

[Strormer]

Barbarian at level 1 is that guy in high school who thinks he's a badas*, but then after graduation (level 2) he realizes that all the nerds are doing so much better than him and he just sits there remembering that one time he scored four touchdowns in a single game for the Polk Panthers back in '66.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'm sorry you have to drive so far to get to PFS, but you can't honestly expect them to plan the entire sanctioned play program around people with 45-minute commutes.With the decline of brick and mortar stores (even less of which probably have the space run PFS or other games), I'd hypothesize that far more players are looking at 30+ minute drives to a store that there are players who are looking at <30 minute drives to stores.

On the core only vs. everything PFS thing: Whatever, PFS was already dumb and to be avoided IMO. This doesn't change that. Neither option really appeals to me. It's nice of them to offer more options for players and GMs, I guess.

[Psyren]

If the amount of GMs stays the same but the number of formats increases, that means less game per each individual format.

Except the amount of GMs didn't stay the same. Look at the comment thread under the announcement; count how many posts are from people saying "I feel like DMing again!" or even better "I might try my hand at DMing now that I know there's only one book to worry about." That was the entire point of this initiative, and would not have happened had they not done it.



It still affects people who wouldn't want or prefer core only, even if the option to play with other materials still exists.

They addressed that too. Because you (as both the player and GM) now get scenario credit from running both the Core Campaign version of a scenario and the regular, there is incentive for tables to alternate between the two each month.


Isn't their a feat that let's you effect everyone within 30' with it?

IRL we all get that ability as a bonus feat. Of course, this applies to your failures as well :smalltongue:


For level one? Str-20 barbarian with power attack.

Sure, at higher level the casters dominate. But first-level divine spells don't stack up in power against 1d12+13 damage per round straight.

The druid is doing comparable damage each round if you count their attacks (w/ Shillelagh) + those of the companion though, especially if the companion gets Power Attack. And he is also bringing much more utility to the table via the likes of Entangle, Cure Light Wounds, Produce Flame and Faerie Fire.


With the decline of brick and mortar stores (even less of which probably have the space run PFS or other games), I'd hypothesize that far more players are looking at 30+ minute drives to a store that there are players who are looking at <30 minute drives to stores.

In the boondocks maybe, but people tend to be concentrated in cities. I have three stores within 20 minutes of me, one of which houses our Venture Captain.

[Kurald Galain]

The druid is doing comparable damage each round if you count their attacks (w/ Shillelagh) + those of the companion though, especially if the companion gets Power Attack. And he is also bringing much more utility to the table via the likes of Entangle, Cure Light Wounds, Produce Flame and Faerie Fire.
...maybe?

I must say I've found druids rather underwhelming at level 1. You get only two spells per day, and the most powerful companions are banned in PFS anyway. Druids have some very cool spells on their list, but those are generally 2nd or 3rd level.

[Psyren]

...maybe?

I must say I've found druids rather underwhelming at level 1. You get only two spells per day, and the most powerful companions are banned in PFS anyway. Druids have some very cool spells on their list, but those are generally 2nd or 3rd level.

Flanking and even Aid Another are a big deal at level 1, and the druid has both built in; I wouldn't discount them so readily. In terms of aggregate damage output, getting thwacked with a magic club (2d6+1+Str damage, lasts for 10 rounds a pop) and mauled by a bear has to be at least close to what a fighter and barb are doing.

In addition, Retraining is still allowed in Core PFS - so you can take low-level things like Weapon Focus to help out early on and drop them later when you've come into your own and started wildshaping all over the place.

[Squirrel_Dude]

In the boondocks maybe, but people tend to be concentrated in cities. I have three stores within 20 minutes of me, one of which houses our Venture Captain.I live in DFW. Things aren't too great around here, but then DFW is a notoriously spread out city. It's considered a single metroplex even tough between Dallas and Ft. Worth there is enough room for another city.

[Strormer]

I live in DFW. Things aren't too great around here, but then DFW is a notoriously spread out.

Houston has this same problem. I've got my home store roughly 35-45 minutes away, but alternate options that run more than once every two weeks are distant at best.

Alas, I miss the days when I wasn't the only DM in my group, but these days, if I actually want to play, I'm going PFS. Them's the breaks.

[Raven777]

Question : what is so important with playing PFS if you need to commit to a 45 minutes drive and content bans? Wouldn't you be happier playing with like minded players over Skype?

[Strormer]

Question : what is so important with playing PFS if you need to commit to a 45 minutes drive and content bans? Wouldn't you be happier playing with like minded players over Skype?

Well, for my part, I don't like playing over the computer. Part of the enjoyment of the game is the face-to-face contact I get. I've got plenty of video games to fill the online interactivity part of my life. This might not be a reason for others, but its the leading reason for me.

I do miss my old gaming group though. Alas, it's hard to keep a group together more than a year these days.