Questions on Wild West Technology

[creakyaccordion]

I really want to run a campaign in a sort of parallel to 19th century technology, namely guns. Stuff most namely like revolvers, shotguns and lever-action rifles, but I feel like the rules for those provided in the Modern weapons section would make other ranged weapons useless, and I know of at least one player who wants to use a bow. What rules have you guys used in similar games? I guess I could use the rules for muskets and pistols and make it more of an 18th century campaign, but I really wanted it to kind of feel like a fantasy western. Thoughts?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Well, is your concern that the guns are too strong overall or just that the bow player will have trouble? If the problem is just the bow player, you should consider unique advantages for bows (stealth, special arrow types ala Thief). If your problem is that you think they will be too strong relative to everything (magic and melee), then you should consider toning down the guns.

Personally, I think it will be fine if the guns are strong; it's part of the setting. Consider altering or blocking the Sharpshooter feat since it would be extremely strong in a Western setting with players engaging in gunfights...

You could consider including a nerfed light rifle comparable to bows as a low level weapon.

[creakyaccordion]

My biggest concern is that the modern set up for the guns does more damage than the crossbows do with seemingly less restrictions. The Reload feature seems to be less restrictive than the loading feature, or at least not restrictive enough to warrant the damage increase. I mean like, the Revolver does 2d8 damage per shot and you reload the whole thing with just a bonus action.

[CrusaderJoe]

OK so if you like the "wild west" you should look into the history of the time and how much most of the funs really sucked. Hollywood has done a great job at romanticizing the wild west. All except shotguns really sucked back then.

Random note, the wild west had the most strict gun laws ever in american history, you wasn't allowed in towns with guns. You had to give them up while there.

Learning some real history about the setting could probably help. You could change the rules to meet some sort of historic relavence. Plus you will get bonus points as a DM if anyone is a history major.

[Eslin]

As a side note - is there any problem with guns being better than bows and crossbows? I mean eventually they did become better than them. This is like worrying that in a modern setting your players will use cars rather than horses: yes, yes they will. What's the problem?

[Naanomi]

Look into Kenzer Cos 'Aces and Eights' RPG for great setting and background info for Wild West role playing, even if the system itself can be a bit wonky there is a wealth of info to mine for other games set in the era

[NotVeryBatman]

You might consider taking notes from Hong Kong action films and dialing back the damage die on firearms.

Another fix would be holding off on certain technological breakthroughs. You could allow metal-cased ammunition, but maybe no one's invented the revolving cylinder.

[creakyaccordion]

If I were to scale back the damage, how much would you guys recommend? Basically the drawback of guns seems to be that to reload it takes a standard or bonus action (whichever the player chooses) and you can only have extra attacks up to the reload number (2 for shotgun, 6 for revolver, 5 for hunting rifle). Revolvers do 2d8 damage, Shotguns do 2d8 as well (which is weird because they have worse reload, range, and are two-handed instead of one handed)and hunting rifles are 2d10

To be honest these are awful, I'd be way better off homebrewing them

[CrusaderJoe]

If I were to scale back the damage, how much would you guys recommend? Basically the drawback of guns seems to be that to reload it takes a standard or bonus action (whichever the player chooses) and you can only have extra attacks up to the reload number (2 for shotgun, 6 for revolver, 5 for hunting rifle). Revolvers do 2d8 damage, Shotguns do 2d8 as well (which is weird because they have worse reload, range, and are two-handed instead of one handed)and hunting rifles are 2d10

To be honest these are awful, I'd be way better off homebrewing them

So if you are home brewing the guns I would say to make them more like Cantrips instead of weapons. As you get better with the guns your potential for more damage increases.

Shotgun: 1d10 piercing damage, Dex save for half damage? At level XYZ the damage increases by 1d10. It is an action to load and use the shot gun.

Pistol: 1d8 piercing damage, attack roll. At level XYZ the damage increases by 1d8. It is an action to use the Pistol.

Duel Pistols: 1d6 piercing damage each. It is an action to use your duel pistols.

Make the type of ammo give rider effects. Some ammo works in both the shot gun and the pistol and some only works in one... However you see fit.


Scatter Shot: Attack ignores concealment but not cover. Shotgun only.

Trick Shot: Attack ignores cover (you ricochet the bullet). Pistol only.

Hallow Point: Target can't take reactions on a hit.

Slug: Target's speed is reduced by 10 feet.

[xyianth]

snip.

These are very nice. Would you still add Dex to damage, and make each damage increment add it again? If not, these don't play well with the extra attack mechanics and they are pretty much completely weaker than bows/crossbows. Would sharpshooter still apply? (Since tone is hard to determine over the internet, these are sincere questions, not criticisms of any kind.)

[CrusaderJoe]

These are very nice. Would you still add Dex to damage, and make each damage increment add it again? If not, these don't play well with the extra attack mechanics and they are pretty much completely weaker than bows/crossbows. Would sharpshooter still apply? (Since tone is hard to determine over the internet, these are sincere questions, not criticisms of any kind.)

Criticism is ok, those were just spitball ideas I threw out there.

No dex to damage. Dex to damage would be needed if you were using guns as weapons but since they scale like cantrips then you don't need it.

DC: 8 + Prof Bonus + Dex Mod
Attack: 1d20 + Prof Bonus + Dex Mod

They aren't weaker than weapons, they scale differently. Add rider effects and stuff and things should go well.

I actually think weapons should work more like cantrips than they currently do.

Sharpshooter can work if you make an attack roll. You could also reduce the DC by 5 for additional damage. The math is essentially the same.

I haven't really thought any of this out mind you, mostly just spitballing ideas.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Since my late 2nd edition days I've been using the firearms rules from the old Combat and Tactics book and I might recommend nodding a lot of the rules for good firearms from that book

[Vogonjeltz]

My biggest concern is that the modern set up for the guns does more damage than the crossbows do with seemingly less restrictions. The Reload feature seems to be less restrictive than the loading feature, or at least not restrictive enough to warrant the damage increase. I mean like, the Revolver does 2d8 damage per shot and you reload the whole thing with just a bonus action.

This does reflect the fact that crossbows and longbows are totally inferior to rifles and six shooters

*i get you don't want to leave a player in the dust, but this is on the same lines as nerfing the plasma or laser rifle to accommodate someone using a sling.

[xyianth]

This does reflect the fact that crossbows and longbows are totally inferior to rifles and six shooters

*i get you don't want to leave a player in the dust, but this is on the same lines as nerfing the plasma or laser rifle to accommodate someone using a sling.

It depends entirely on the era you want to portray. Modern guns are significantly better in just about every way, but guns from the early 1700s were not so significant an advantage when it came to individuals. (when it came to armies, guns were more efficient at inflicting damage to groups, but bows were significantly more accurate for hunting.) Since OP is wanting to model the wild west era, longbows should remain relevant for long range, but revolvers, shotguns, and rifles will likely outperform all manner of crossbows if you want it to be semi-accurate. Of course, that's a pretty big 'if,' there is absolutely nothing wrong with sacrificing realism for balance/fun.

[Kane0]

How about:

Pistol: simple, 2d4 damage, range 60'/240', loading trait, come in single shot and six-shot varieties
Shotgun: simple, 2d8 damage, range 30' / 120', heavy and loading traits, come in single shot and two-shot varieties
Rifle: simple, 2d6 damage, 120' / 480', heavy and loading traits, come in single shot and four-(or five-?) shot varieties
Dual pistols gives the normal benefits and limitations of dual wielding.
Note: Multiple shot guns only have the loading trait for the last shot, so a six shooter revolver can be used to make 4 attacks with a level 20 fighter and then two more with his action surge, but then he has to reload on his next turn.

Accessible and high damage to reflect their superiority but their effectiveness is not through the roof and still somewhat limited by the user. If you want them to be better make them reloadable with a bonus action, which still limits a users action economy but can get off at least one shot each turn (which is what I would advocate).

For special tricks with guns, perhaps grant them as benefits in place of the marksman feat if the bonus damage worries you or as maneuvers for battlemasters and that feat that gives expertise dice.

Special ammo can be treated as alchemical or magical items just like special arrows and such. You could have tracer ammo, concussive ammo, quiet 'subtle' ammo, etc.

Don't forget characters should be proficient with gunsmith's tools to fix up your guns, clear the occasional jam, make ammo, etc.

[Stan]

Another option is to go pre-civil war. You've got trappers, the Alamo, gold rush, and greater exploration. But the main point is that most guns were single-shot muzzle loaders, which would make them less dominating.

[Joe the Rat]

Reload as bonus action... So in six seconds, I can fire off up to four shots, crack the cylinder open, dump the empty casings, then load six bullets by hand? While maintaining walking speed? Or use the winchester and skip the empty casing part to hand feed bullets into the tube magazine, one at a time.

If you're good with that, go for it. I think it's a bit much. Here's my take:

A full Reload for a Pistol or Rifle requires you to Use an Object. You spend a turn reloading. This is where bows would have an advantage, besides the relative ease of making and reclaiming ammunition, and the stealth factor. That probably needs to be emphasized: Shooting a gun is as subtle as a knock spell every time you pull the trigger.

You can chamber a single round as part of an attack action, effectively trading reload for the loading property, becoming a Noisy Crossbow. Shotguns as a bonus reload is probably okay.

Speedloaders: bullets on a ring, or pre-loaded cylinders are both potential options. If you're okay with this, you can spend money to have Bonus action reloads. Note there are revolver-rifles.

Shotguns: slugs is slugs. scattershot can ignore concealment, or treat it as an area effect attack (Dex saving throw, with the attendant benefits for cover). Pick one. A sawed-off shotgun is effectively low-grade burning hands. Actually, that makes for an interesting Wizard concept: shotgun shells loaded with material components. Set your 50gp diamond for chromatic orb in the stock, load up your shell full of spider webs and a shell full of sulfur and bat guano, and go to town.

[MrConsideration]

Powder can get wet, is expensive, and extremely noisy and pretty inaccurate.

Having other ranged weapons be useless would surely help the flavour of your campaign world?

Perhaps whatever analogue you have for Native Americans could make heavy use of archery.

[creakyaccordion]

How about: stats

This is the exact kind of stuff I was thinking of! The thing I was considering, mainly as a difference from crossbows to guns, is to keep the reload and not give them loading, with a standard action as the reload and a damage track higher than their comparisons. Revolver compared to hand crossbow doing a 1d8 instead of 1d6, rifle compared to a light crossbow doing 1d10 instead of 1d8, shotgun compared to heavy crossbow doing 2d6 instead of 1d10. This doesn't wholly balance so you give them shorter ranges than the bows and crossbows, probably the range values you gave.

[Drake S.]

Just run a campaign based off Firefly, gorammit!

:smalltongue:

I've seen a few Firefly based RPGs out there at the comic and gaming stores. You can also probably draw some inspiration from some of their books.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=firefly+rpg+book&_from=R40&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xfirefly+r pg+core+book.TRS0&_nkw=firefly+rpg+core+book&_sacat=0

[cobaltstarfire]

Powder can get wet, is expensive, and extremely noisy and pretty inaccurate.



Also produces a lot of smoke, smokeless powder was invented a bit later on if I recall correctly.

[warty goblin]

Speedloaders: bullets on a ring, or pre-loaded cylinders are both potential options. If you're okay with this, you can spend money to have Bonus action reloads. Note there are revolver-rifles.

Which are almost uniformly a terrible idea, owing to the cylinder gap spewing hot gasses and occasional lead shavings into your wrist. It's right up there with backward curving spikes on the inside of a sword's guard.

[Vogonjeltz]

It depends entirely on the era you want to portray. Modern guns are significantly better in just about every way, but guns from the early 1700s were not so significant an advantage when it came to individuals. (when it came to armies, guns were more efficient at inflicting damage to groups, but bows were significantly more accurate for hunting.) Since OP is wanting to model the wild west era, longbows should remain relevant for long range, but revolvers, shotguns, and rifles will likely outperform all manner of crossbows if you want it to be semi-accurate. Of course, that's a pretty big 'if,' there is absolutely nothing wrong with sacrificing realism for balance/fun.

Right, and what is classically understood to be the Wild West era (ala movies) would be in the 1800s. These guns are, in just about every way except stealth (that wouldn't apply until after the silencer is invented in 1902) superior to bows. The Good the Bad and the Ugly style six shooter is around in the 1850s and on.

The OP said they were interested in 19th century (i.e. Revolvers and Winchester Rifles), so that skips past the relatively weaker (yet still pretty much better than using a bow) muskets.

I would typically agree, fun > realism...however, if everyone else but this one player is using firearms, you're basically penalizing all the other players so that the bow user gets to fire shots more powerful than they really ought to be. That sounds to me like favoritism, not fun.

[xyianth]

Right, and what is classically understood to be the Wild West era (ala movies) would be in the 1800s. These guns are, in just about every way except stealth (that wouldn't apply until after the silencer is invented in 1902) superior to bows. The Good the Bad and the Ugly style six shooter is around in the 1850s and on.

You do know that Hollywood is terrible at historical accuracy right? The actual wild west cowboys rarely killed anyone, almost never shot from horseback(horses don't like loud noises), and often lost in skirmishes against the Native Americans using bows. Also, handguns had an effective range of about 15-20 feet, after which the speed of firing mattered more than accuracy so that some shots might accidentally hit the target. Modern handguns (which are slightly quieter than historic guns) are about 130-140 dB when fired. A silencer drops this to about 120 dB. (roughly as loud as a jackhammer) Guns based on gunpowder will never be stealthier than a bow, not now, not ever.


I would typically agree, fun > realism...however, if everyone else but this one player is using firearms, you're basically penalizing all the other players so that the bow user gets to fire shots more powerful than they really ought to be. That sounds to me like favoritism, not fun.

Realism would be 1-2 shots from either a bow or a gun resulting in character death. D&D is already sacrificing quite a bit of realism for the sake of fun. There is no such thing as BadWrongFun, and adding balance constraints to ensure every player doesn't use the same weapon is a perfectly fine way to play the game. If it's not to your liking, don't run your games that way.

Just a few ideas on how I would handle it, even keeping guns as doing more damage:


Pistols come in 2 varieties: single shot, and revolver(6). Both have crossbow range. Ammunition can not be recovered, so you have to purchase it as you go. I'd let the single shot one be reloaded as a bonus action by default. The revolver would require an action to reload, unless you used a speedloader. (purchased separately) You could then reload as a bonus action. You would also need an action to load a speedloader, but that could be done before/after combat. To be generous, I'd allow the revolver to load a single shot as a bonus action by default.

Rifles come in two varieties as well, shotgun and hunting. The shotgun would have a 15' cone (for shells) or 30' (for slugs) range. The hunting rifle would have a range of about 75'. Both would be reloaded as a bonus action, and can fire 2 rounds before needing to be reloaded. Both would be 2-handed weapons.

All guns can do 2d10 damage per shot. Special ammunition can apply different effects if you like. (similar to magic arrows) It would be a DC 1 perception check to hear a gun being fired, with +1 DC per 20' of distance. Anyone attempting to use stealth after discharging a firearm has disadvantage on the check. (lasts 2 rounds)

What this does is make firearms potent, burst weapons; but utterly useless at long range or for stealth missions. Additionally, fighters get more benefit from bows than rifles due to number of attacks. If you want to add more realism, add maintenance as a thing for firearms. Gunpowder is naturally corrosive and goes everywhere when you fire a shot. It takes actual effort to clean and maintain a firearm after use. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to require about 5cp worth of oil and approximately 1-5 minutes to disassemble, clean, and reassemble the weapon during a short or long rest. If not done, a firearm could have an increasing chance to jam mid-fire. (action wasted to clear the jam, start at happening only when you roll 1s, increase by +1 every day without proper maintenance)

[Vogonjeltz]

You do know that Hollywood is terrible at historical accuracy right? The actual wild west cowboys rarely killed anyone, almost never shot from horseback(horses don't like loud noises), and often lost in skirmishes against the Native Americans using bows. Also, handguns had an effective range of about 15-20 feet, after which the speed of firing mattered more than accuracy so that some shots might accidentally hit the target. Modern handguns (which are slightly quieter than historic guns) are about 130-140 dB when fired. A silencer drops this to about 120 dB. (roughly as loud as a jackhammer) Guns based on gunpowder will never be stealthier than a bow, not now, not ever.

The date of information is historical fact; the movie reference is merely for ease of comprehension.

Secondly, the incidence of murder notwithstanding, firearms are more accurate and more lethal and have better range than a bow on average. The comparison point would be Rifle vs Longbow, Pistol vs Knife; not pistol vs longbow.

I agree the bow is quieter, because the silencer had not been invented within the timeframe discussed.


Realism would be 1-2 shots from either a bow or a gun resulting in character death. D&D is already sacrificing quite a bit of realism for the sake of fun. There is no such thing as BadWrongFun, and adding balance constraints to ensure every player doesn't use the same weapon is a perfectly fine way to play the game. If it's not to your liking, don't run your games that way.

With 2d8 damage one shot very well could be lethal from a gun at early levels. Remember, hp is more of an abstract concept.


Just a few ideas on how I would handle it, even keeping guns as doing more damage:


Pistols come in 2 varieties: single shot, and revolver(6). Both have crossbow range. Ammunition can not be recovered, so you have to purchase it as you go. I'd let the single shot one be reloaded as a bonus action by default. The revolver would require an action to reload, unless you used a speedloader. (purchased separately) You could then reload as a bonus action. You would also need an action to load a speedloader, but that could be done before/after combat. To be generous, I'd allow the revolver to load a single shot as a bonus action by default.

Rifles come in two varieties as well, shotgun and hunting. The shotgun would have a 15' cone (for shells) or 30' (for slugs) range. The hunting rifle would have a range of about 75'. Both would be reloaded as a bonus action, and can fire 2 rounds before needing to be reloaded. Both would be 2-handed weapons.

All guns can do 2d10 damage per shot. Special ammunition can apply different effects if you like. (similar to magic arrows) It would be a DC 1 perception check to hear a gun being fired, with +1 DC per 20' of distance. Anyone attempting to use stealth after discharging a firearm has disadvantage on the check. (lasts 2 rounds)

What this does is make firearms potent, burst weapons; but utterly useless at long range or for stealth missions. Additionally, fighters get more benefit from bows than rifles due to number of attacks. If you want to add more realism, add maintenance as a thing for firearms. Gunpowder is naturally corrosive and goes everywhere when you fire a shot. It takes actual effort to clean and maintain a firearm after use. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to require about 5cp worth of oil and approximately 1-5 minutes to disassemble, clean, and reassemble the weapon during a short or long rest. If not done, a firearm could have an increasing chance to jam mid-fire. (action wasted to clear the jam, start at happening only when you roll 1s, increase by +1 every day without proper maintenance)

I think as long as you can simulate unloading on a target, it all works.

[obryn]

Worrying about game balance is totally legit. You don't want guns to be so great that bows become useless ... unless you want the world to mostly have guns instead of bows.

I'm running a Zeitgeist game, which mostly has flintlocks and thus bypasses a lot of the balance concerns. But if you want revolvers to be the norm...

For normal firearms, I'd just go simple and give them the same stats as hand, light, and heavy crossbows. Reduce them all to Simple proficiency, to reflect their ease of use compared to bows.

That's enough right there, but if you want them to have slight differences, make it so they can't roll 1's or 2's on their damage dice (either treating those as 3 or giving a reroll), but give guns a chance to jam on a natural 1. And there's also the noise issue, of course.

If you want bows and guns to coexist, you need to nod to balance and gameplay more than realism.

[hawklost]

There is also other balancing factors that you might consider. Simple things that make Guns better in some ways but worse in others.

1) Guns do not add ability mod to their damage, instead getting more powerful dice to compensate but not as good for someone who has a very high Dex score

2) Guns cannot be enchanted with Magic. For some reason, the complexity of a gun (or the explosion from the bullet) cannot work with the fine tuning of magical effects and therefore they cannot be permanently enchanted (let them place temp enchants on them)

3) Guns will be checked for and removed from players while in town (to be returned when they choose to leave assuming no Fines or fleeing). Crossbows and Bows on the other hand are not taken away

4) Guns automatically can use a Bonus action to fire at disadvantage (if they carry more shots), if Duel Wielding, both guns fire. Guns require an Action to reload though.

5) Guns can Jam, on a Natural 1, the bullet fires but jams, requiring a full round to fix.

6) Guns are loud, everyone within 300 (maybe 150?) feet hears when a gun goes off.

These are just some ideas to allow guns to be more powerful in dice but still having Crossbows and Bows be valuable.

[hecetv]

Just let guns be strong if you want a Wild West campaign. Bows are sneaky-er for when you need to be sneaky and their range should be better for when you need that. Also you can re use arrows. Dex mod to damage represents your accuracy in hitting vital points with a gun. It's fine.

Also even if pistols were horribly inaccurate, a gunslinger with 16 dex is like a god man in terms of his coordination, so he should be like a movie star in terms of shooting. Realistically no one would be able to survive versus a dragon, but PCs in dnd are like legendary heroes.....

Rifles have longer range but they're really loud, pistols are loud and have short range but they can have six shots and you can have two. Shotguns... Well.... Don't get too close.... Bows? Snipe a dude and where's it coming from? Crossbows? Slightly less range than bows, quieter than guns. You can reuse arrows and bolts, but not bullets. I don't see a problem.

People did stop using swords when guns became wide spread. But a guy with a dagger out can kill a guy with a gun, especially if he hasn't drawn his gun yet. And a sword? Works all day and relatively quietly. It's a fantasy setting.

I don't think this is historically accurate but I think I read someone criticizing the use of great swords in man on man combat because they were used to cut down horses. I don't think that's true, but even if that were the case, you need a bad ass weapon that can cut down a huge ass horse to kill an ogre or whatever. A dagger wouldn't be what I would pick to kill a 10' foot tall dude. Idk how big ogres are but you get my drift.

Strength in the Wild West is for wrasslin' and kickin' in doors and ****. Dex is for shooting. And melee weapons are only for certain scenarios like when you're on a sketchy airship floating over a volcano or trying to sneak up on goblin bandits buck naked in the dead of night.

[xyianth]

The date of information is historical fact; the movie reference is merely for ease of comprehension.

Secondly, the incidence of murder notwithstanding, firearms are more accurate and more lethal and have better range than a bow on average. The comparison point would be Rifle vs Longbow, Pistol vs Knife; not pistol vs longbow.

I agree the bow is quieter, because the silencer had not been invented within the timeframe discussed.

Suit yourself, arguing over historical fact and physical laws is off topic and counter-productive.



With 2d8 damage one shot very well could be lethal from a gun at early levels. Remember, hp is more of an abstract concept.

On a crit, maybe. Remember -10hp isn't death anymore. With the way 5e handles death, you need to be able to do 2x maximum hp in a single hit to cause instant death, otherwise they just fall unconscious and start making death saving throws. If you meant one shot could drop a creature unconscious, then yes that is true. (as it is with most weapons actually, 1st level characters end up falling unconscious rather easily)

[TheDeadlyShoe]

If you want bows and guns to coexist, you need to nod to balance and gameplay more than realism.

i think its probably better to grant other advantages to bows than for a 'wild west' world to be reflavored standard dnd balance. it raises the question of why anyone bothers with guns from a mechanical perspective.

[Gritmonger]

I'd let bullets bypass nonmagical resistance to piercing damage.
Otherwise make damage similar to crossbows and arrows.
Make smoke and noise be dead givaways to position.
Go with the old style revolvers that required ammunition packing for each cylinder.

[obryn]

i think its probably better to grant other advantages to bows than for a 'wild west' world to be reflavored standard dnd balance. it raises the question of why anyone bothers with guns from a mechanical perspective.
There's the "simple weapon" bit, to answer that. Guns are the best simple weapons in the game, that way.

I also like the idea of using 2dW and not adding a stat mod, but that has rippling effects to consider. I'd maybe drop critical hit chances from guns alongside it, and realize they are now the top backup weapon in the game. (Which may be a good thing; YMMV.)

If you go with your suggestion and power up bows while leaving guns really strong, then you get into a crazy arms race where melee is disadvantaged.

A game's rules should work towards the game's theme. If you want to run "Six-Shooters, Swords, and Sorcery," you need to make sure your mechanics encourage that.

[Vogonjeltz]

Suit yourself, arguing over historical fact and physical laws is off topic and counter-productive.

What? I was just stating facts.


On a crit, maybe. Remember -10hp isn't death anymore. With the way 5e handles death, you need to be able to do 2x maximum hp in a single hit to cause instant death, otherwise they just fall unconscious and start making death saving throws. If you meant one shot could drop a creature unconscious, then yes that is true. (as it is with most weapons actually, 1st level characters end up falling unconscious rather easily)

The death saving throw at 0 is a player rule, not an NPC rule. Players have the option to knock NPCs unconscious, but the standard is death at 0.

[xyianth]

What? I was just stating facts.

If you want to continue this discussion, take it to PMs, I don't want to derail the thread any further. OP wants ideas about how to run wild west style guns in D&D, we should return to that.



The death saving throw at 0 is a player rule, not an NPC rule. Players have the option to knock NPCs unconscious, but the standard is death at 0.

Technically it is DM's choice (per PHB page 198), though I admit I had forgotten about that. (My biggest issue with 5e so far has been the disparity between how PCs and NPCs interact with rules, so I tend to apply the rules for PCs to NPCs whenever possible. Still my favorite edition overall though.)