Durkon and Xykon?

[realroadcrossin]

So I wanted to open this thread to talk about the possibility of Durkon (as the High Priest of Hel) teaming up with Xykon and replacing Redcloak in Team Evil and the ritual they want to do on the gate. I don't see this theory really discussed around here and I was wondering if in general it seems likely. Personally to me, it seems like the seeds are planted right there in the character arcs. For example:


Xykon's probably gonna be more on board with whatever Hel's plan is than the Order. It's also pretty obvious with Tsukiko he was looking for a new cleric to replace Redcloak in the plan (whatever he thinks it is).
Talking about the plan, as one of the original gods in the original pantheons, Hel knows more about what's going on with the gates than anyone else with a direct seed in the pot right now. Even if her plan doesn't involve the gates now, once the High Priest of Hel gets a better look at Redcloak and Xykon she should have a good idea of what they're attempting.
On that note, she definitely can probably engage in the same ritual Redcloak is attempting. She probably wouldn't want to kill dwarves with the snarl since they leave no souls to torture, but Thor is a strong obvious possibility to allow her to claim said souls more easily.
Since Xykon is undead and Hel is a god of death, Durkon could probably control Xykon more directly than Redcloak. Or maybe they'd be undead bros. Either way, an undead sorcerer lich is probably more Hel's speed than the order, whatever her goals.
There has to be a dramatic break between Durkon and the Order at some point - I really doubt he can conceal his true nature forever, especially when their plans start to diverge. Teaming up with Xykon is a way to raise the stakes AND keeps the order from raising their stakes into his heart. Though he probably doesn't need much help.
Their names rhyme :D


I'm posting this theory for discussion not because I'm necessarily convinced it's true, but because when I'm theorizing I keep on bumping up against this idea in some form. I know it seems kind of obvious since they're both evil characters, and the strip has well established "evil isn't one big happy family". I hope the points above show the more subtle elements inching the story in that direction, and I'm interested in any points for and especially against this theory - the fact it seems so likely in my mind makes me think I'm missing some obvious detail making this impossible.

[Ellye]

Huh. Weird.

Of all the possibilities surrounding Vampire Durkon, this one, which doesn't seem that hard to think up when you lay it out like that, somehow never crossed my mind. Though it probably has been mentioned to undeath in this forum already, considering how things tend to be around here.

It would be an interesting twist, I believe.

[snowblizz]

The Plan as is is specifically Redcloak and the Dark Ones, Xykon is the pawn in this case. Xykon just doesn't know it and because he's overtly more powerful we buy into this premise. The Ritual cannot be done without Redcloak and is doesn't benefit Xykon in any way nor anyone except the Dark One.

So what exactly is it Xykon and HPoH/Hel should be teaming up around? A similar variant as the DO? As an original deity Hel seems to have a bigger stake in the current set-up than the DO, I'd imagine. And being among those who were at first under threat of destruction I'd think she'd be less inclined to go all-in so to speak.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I see Hel more readily teaming up with Redcloak than Xykon. Hel and the Dark One are in similar positions and Redcloak is needed to complete the ritual, since he is the only one who has the divine half of the ritual.

[Keltest]

As the IFCC pointed out, Evil is not one big happy family. As near as I can tell, The HPoH has no particular reason to ally himself with Xykon, especially since Xykon is, knowingly or not, working directly against Hel.

[littlebum2002]

Their names rhyme :D


For some reason, I always pronounced Durkon as "Dur-ken".

[Rakoa]

For some reason, I always pronounced Durkon as "Dur-ken".

I did, too. I didn't know there were people who didn't.

[Kish]

I will be surprised if Durkon is still undead at the end of the current book. Vampire Durkon will probably interact with Xykon (or Redcloak) no more than Tarquin did in BRitF.

[MrMercury]

Firstly, Hel would have to grant Durkula knowledge of the divine half of the prophecy.


Howver, I think this is plausible. especially since the ritual grants the power to shift the gate to the dark one (or Hel).

There's also motivation for red cloak to join the order. He clearly thinks Xykon is too risky to work with now, since he clearly has xykons real soul-thing (can't spell >.<). Redcloak has furfilled the dark one's plans by creating a place for goblins goto reside. If xykon finds out redcloak has betrayed him, he would try take revenge by destroying gobbotopia. Therefore, RC could join the order to take xykon down so that the future of gobbotopia is guaranteed. Maybe he could strike a bargain where the humans and the goblins live side by side?

[dps]

Well, let's see. If Hel knows about the ritual, but not what it actually does, then there's no incentive that I can see for the HPoH to team up with Xykon--I just can't see Hel having a reason to help Xykon take over the world.

OTOH, if Hel knows what the ritual actually does AND can give her high priest the knowledge to cast it, then there's incentive to team up with Xykon. Then Hel could use the Snarl against the other gods much like the Dark One planned to do. Xykon would still just be a patsy.

There's no logic to a HPoH/Redcloak team-up, at least when it comes to the ritual. They're both divine casters, and you need a divine caster and an arcane caster.

[Prinygod]

Id also like to add if if it was hels goal to userp The Plan. All Hpoh would jave to do if victorious is create undead or vamp V and Rc. Then get the ritual from Dead Cloak, and have Count V Cast the arcane half

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Possibly more likely is an alliance between Hel and the IFCC, given that their aims seem obviously compatible, the IFCC doubtless possess the ability to easily make contact, and `Evil Is Going To Be One Big Happy Family` is essentially their mission statement.

As for Xykon, it just seems unlikely that he would consider an equal ally, or that (HPo)Hell would settle for less. Like France, Liches have no friends, only interests (read: minions).

[Snails]

Possibly more likely is an alliance between Hel and the IFCC, given that their aims seem obviously compatible, the IFCC doubtless possess the ability to easily make contact, and `Evil Is Going To Be One Big Happy Family` is essentially their mission statement.

As for Xykon, it just seems unlikely that he would consider an equal ally, or that (HPo)Hell would settle for less. Like France, Liches have no friends, only interests (read: minions).

Based on known peculiaries (e.g. no regular living worshipers) and the Giant's hints, Hel seems to be a god with serious "issues". She is an inauspicious ally for everyone, although it would be logical for the IFCC to try if the chance comes up. I just think that working with Hel is going to blow up in the face of anyone who tries.

[ti'esar]

I'd add that, considering that we have no idea what the IFCC's aims truly are, it's hard to say if they'd really be compatible with Hel's - which are also largely unknown, for that matter.

[snowblizz]

I'd add that, considering that we have no idea what the IFCC's aims truly are, it's hard to say if they'd really be compatible with Hel's - which are also largely unknown, for that matter.
Indeed and the interaction we see with the IFCC does hint that even the evil gods might not be on the same page as the IFCC (to me at least). While IFCC works for cooperation, it's cooperation for deamons, daemons and devils. The evil gods don't seem to fit into that.

[Onyavar]

Wow! This is another thing that never occured to me.

What if Hel is really one of the good guys?

Well, not the GOOD good guys obviously, but one of those who want to prevent the kind of destruction that Redcloak or the IFCC would bring? Of course, it's all a question of who knows who else knows who knows that... well, you know?

Hel's gambit is to ultimately prevent Redcloaks gambit from suceeding. This can be achieved by having a powerful cleric pawn in place and severing Redcloaks "strings on which the Xykon puppet unwittingly dances".

As a result, Redcloak is out but probably not dead, and willing to attempt seizing the gate with another wizard, a certain goblin daughter comes to mind. Xykon can be convinced by Hel that it is in Xykons power to actually preserve the world. Xykon likes the world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), you know? How badass can it be, rightfully bragging that you had the power to destroy the world, but you saved it instead? Plus, he's not suicidal. So he might be willing to go with Hel's plan and do whatever it takes to keep the gate out of Redcloaks hands. Co-op with Hel is not like he's supporting the angels.

Of course, things are more complicated than that:
- Hel is not doing it for the Greater Good. Her goal is more power, to gain respect from the other gods, to destroy Thors and Odins dwarven power base, and who knows what else. Which is the reason that Thor opposed her plan all the way. We haven't a clue about the godly alliances behind the scenes. Could be that Thor is a hardhead who would rather have the world destroyed than granting Hel or the Dark One more power. Could be that Thor is drinking buddy with the Dark One and is actually a secret supporter of Redcloaks plan. Could be that Thor and Odin are fools, played by whoever else.
- Xykon is also not doing it for the Greater Good. Far from it. He will accept a deal with Hel only if he is either forced or if he gains something cool and/or powerful.
- The Order of the Stick IS in it for the Greater Good, but I can't see Roy accepting a truce brokered by "Durkon", and stand around and watch the lich and the vampire save the world. Which could mean that the order might do something really dangerous.
- IFCC, nuff said.
- If it goes down anything like this, I guess that all the other sides will have been eliminated or are inconsequential at this point of the story.

... Also, my guesses and speculations are of course dead wrong.

[Keltest]

Wow! This is another thing that never occured to me.

What if Hel is really one of the good guys?

Well, not the GOOD good guys obviously, but one of those who want to prevent the kind of destruction that Redcloak or the IFCC would bring? Of course, it's all a question of who knows who else knows who knows that... well, you know?

Hel's gambit is to ultimately prevent Redcloaks gambit from suceeding. This can be achieved by having a powerful cleric pawn in place and severing Redcloaks "strings on which the Xykon puppet unwittingly dances".

As a result, Redcloak is out but probably not dead, and willing to attempt seizing the gate with another wizard, a certain goblin daughter comes to mind. Xykon can be convinced by Hel that it is in Xykons power to actually preserve the world. Xykon likes the world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), you know? How badass can it be, rightfully bragging that you had the power to destroy the world, but you saved it instead? Plus, he's not suicidal. So he might be willing to go with Hel's plan and do whatever it takes to keep the gate out of Redcloaks hands. Co-op with Hel is not like he's supporting the angels.

Of course, things are more complicated than that:
- Hel is not doing it for the Greater Good. Her goal is more power, to gain respect from the other gods, to destroy Thors and Odins dwarven power base, and who knows what else. Which is the reason that Thor opposed her plan all the way. We haven't a clue about the godly alliances behind the scenes. Could be that Thor is a hardhead who would rather have the world destroyed than granting Hel or the Dark One more power. Could be that Thor is drinking buddy with the Dark One and is actually a secret supporter of Redcloaks plan. Could be that Thor and Odin are fools, played by whoever else.
- Xykon is also not doing it for the Greater Good. Far from it. He will accept a deal with Hel only if he is either forced or if he gains something cool and/or powerful.
- The Order of the Stick IS in it for the Greater Good, but I can't see Roy accepting a truce brokered by "Durkon", and stand around and watch the lich and the vampire save the world. Which could mean that the order might do something really dangerous.
- IFCC, nuff said.
- If it goes down anything like this, I guess that all the other sides will have been eliminated or are inconsequential at this point of the story.

... Also, my guesses and speculations are of course dead wrong.

Ive had thoughts tending in that general direction as well. I doubt Hel specifically wants to stop Redcloak, because that makes the HPoH's deceit rather pointless, but her motives might not be quite as detrimental to the general shape of the world as they appear right now.

[theasl]

Firstly, Hel would have to grant Durkula knowledge of the divine half of the prophecy.


Howver, I think this is plausible. especially since the ritual grants the power to shift the gate to the dark one (or Hel).

There's also motivation for red cloak to join the order. He clearly thinks Xykon is too risky to work with now, since he clearly has xykons real soul-thing (can't spell >.<). Redcloak has furfilled the dark one's plans by creating a place for goblins goto reside. If xykon finds out redcloak has betrayed him, he would try take revenge by destroying gobbotopia. Therefore, RC could join the order to take xykon down so that the future of gobbotopia is guaranteed. Maybe he could strike a bargain where the humans and the goblins live side by side?

I'd thought the same of Malack, and look what happened to him :smallfrown:

[Xihirli]

Firstly, Hel would have to grant Durkula knowledge of the divine half of the prophecy.


Howver, I think this is plausible. especially since the ritual grants the power to shift the gate to the dark one (or Hel).

There's also motivation for red cloak to join the order. He clearly thinks Xykon is too risky to work with now, since he clearly has xykons real soul-thing (can't spell >.<). Redcloak has furfilled the dark one's plans by creating a place for goblins goto reside. If xykon finds out redcloak has betrayed him, he would try take revenge by destroying gobbotopia. Therefore, RC could join the order to take xykon down so that the future of gobbotopia is guaranteed. Maybe he could strike a bargain where the humans and the goblins live side by side?

That's inconsistent with Redcloak's characterization. Yes, he already HAS what he wants: A fair chance. The goblins have a great city with trade relations and the promise of a growing empire, and I fully expect the Dark one to go up to Odin, Dragon, and that four-armed guy and ask that his people only be given what is fair and for Dragon to angrily respond; "You've already taken what is more than fair from the labor of MY worshipers' work to build a city" or some more witty variant. Redcloak already HAD what he wanted back in Start of Darkness, when he was ready to quit the Plan when Xykon showed up and derailed that. But Redcloak didn't switch sides when Xykon threatened the goblins. Xykon told Redcloak he'd found another gate.
Redcloak: "Really?"
That was when he was on board.
Redcloak's main issue is his blindness to the fact that he DOESN'T NEED the Snarl to gain goblins' equality. Just an army of 30,000 hobgoblins, a Death Knight, a Heucuva, and definitely not an Eye of Fear and Flame. Perhaps he'll move past this, but I'm looking for a MASSIVE moment, not just meeting up with Durkula and gaining contact with Hel. He has a general disdain for the undead, as shown to his The Reason You Suck/Breaking Speech to Tsukiko and I find that he could be unwilling to betray one powerful undead caster with an agenda for another one. I suspect it will be Redcloak smashing the Phylactery just as Roy deals the finishing blow on Xykon, or perhaps a little before or after.
And then the Snarl is set loose.
Durkula will probably be Durkon again by that point.

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[Rack]

What about Hel's Priest and V? How long is the ritual supposed to take anyway?

[Buckethead]

I am under the impression that becoming a vampire (or being shunted into oneself while a vampire drives you) is designed to help Durkon get over some of his apathy and make him grow as a person. If the ultimate showdown with Xykon has Durkula on his side, it doesn't really seem like a character building moment to me, but rather a "Surprise! I was always gonna screw you over!" moment, but since we already know he's evil it seems unlikely.

I predict everyone will be themselves again before the final fight with Xykon.

And while I'm at it... Belkar will die in the fight, the last panel being something along the lines of "Haha, I made it to the end."

Just a thought.