Trope of the Rogue II - The Thieve's Guild

[Scorponok]

I thought about adding this to the other thread, but decided it was a different enough direction that I didn't want to interrupt what was already an excellent discussion and a pretty busy thread.

But anyways, my question is, how do you DMs handle another interesting trope that seems to pop up in various D&D games and fantasy settings? What I am referring to, is as per the title, of course, the Thieve's Guild.

This started off in a conversation with one of my players - the one who caused the whole DM to put his foot down and railroad us actually. (His name is Mike.) In one of our drives home, Mike suggested in an off-hand comment about wondering if there was a Thieve's Guild in my campaign. This was about 2 years ago, and the thought had sat idly in my head, being stirred occasionally when the topic came up in movies or comic books.

Basically, what is it, and if you are a DM, how do you realize it in your game?

I know in certain video games, like Morrowind, the Thieve's Guild is right out in the open, for all to see. (I think this is the way it is in the first Neverwinter Nights game too.) You can just walk right in. Personally, this seemed to me a very clumsy realization of what should be a secretive and mysterious organization. The authorities would be all over this, unless the business was some sort of front. (And again, in Morrowind, there is a big sign that says THIEVE'S GUILD.)

Starting out a level-1 peon should not automatically give you access to it. And even then, why would a bunch of rogues decide to come together?

My answer to this is the Thieve's Guild in a city should be extremely difficult to find, unless you have the right connections. Either your father was a master thief, or you have a criminal background of some sort. It isn't suppose to be the hideout of the local gang or mafia - that is entirely different. It is, to me, suppose to be an organization of people who help each other get things done that the rest of society frowns upon, or things that require too little time vs. too much bureaucracy at any given moment. A Thieve's Guild would leave clues as to who they are, and where they meet. These clues could be difficult to decipher or even hiding in plain sight, but would be decipherable to those who know what to look for and where to look. And I wouldn't have the PC open the door and there, in front of him, are all the well known rouges, assassins, and cutthroats in the area, waiting to be identified.

A Thieve's Guild would probably be staffed with low level minions who's sole job would be to relay information and jobs people wanted to keep on the down low. Stuff that needs to be taken to a different city to sell, spying on the local mining business, or a place where people buy and sell information.

In order to get work from these organizations, a company might ask the party to do a seemingly mundane job, such as delivering mystery boxes, and jobs that are done well and on time open up more important and higher paying jobs. Eventually, it would get to the point where the party has to choose to do a morally questionable job (such as bury a mystery coffin) and that would determine whether their rank gets bumped up to actually being part of an "inner circle" or not. If they think the task runs them a little bit too close to the 'evil' side of the fence, they refuse and the company that gave them the job retaliates, or they are kicked back to a "helpful outsider" status and continually given mundane jobs.

Saying this, a Thieve's Guild seems quite incompatible with having any sort of strongly lawful good character, and that's another thing I wanted to talk about. If two players are playing, say, a LG Paladin and CN Rogue, does this basically mean the Thieve's Guild storyline should be thrown out the window?

Anything else GitP members can tell me about Thieve's Guilds and how they operate would be welcome! I have a few ideas of my own, but would like to hear yours.

[Karl Aegis]

You gathered a bunch of dishonest guys into the same place and monopolized the thievery in the surrounding area. You just pulled off a big job and got something of value. That something goes missing. Who can you suspect? You're surrounded by thieves who have easy access to your den. You think no one else knew about the job. It had to be an inside job. Your "guild" starts fighting within their own organization. Nobody even thinks an outsider could have done it. Who would cross the borders just to steal something you might not have?

A master thief. They get away with it. You relied too much on your organization when you should have relied on a group of loosely connected information brokers and spies.


You set yourself up to destroy yourself from within. A thieves guild just doesn't work. You can't just anyone else in the game. If you do, you're just going to hurt yourself.

[TheCrowing1432]

In the Forgotten Realms setting, Calimport, which is one of the largest cities in Faerun is well known for having a thieves guild.

The guards dont do anything for several reasons.

1. The guild is too powerful
2. There isnt enough evidence to conduct a raid on it.
3. Corruption/Paid off officials.

Oh sure, when thieves are caught they get punished, but if you're good, you dont get caught.

[Greenish]

Fritz Leiber wrote a thieves' guild (note the spelling, OP) in his Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories as an intentionally silly setting detail. Since then, they've become rather ubiquitous.

Also, working for organized crime isn't something paladins generally aspire to.

[jedipotter]

I use a couple types.

Gangs This is a common street level guild. They stick to the easy crimes. They offer a bit of protection in numbers, but mostly are for companionship. Even dark companionship. They have a rotating door and loose and gain members all the time. They are loosely organized, often with only a vague leader. They might have a ''hide out'' or they might meet at random places. A town will typical have one, and a city might have several.

Thug Guild Much like a gang, except they use lots of violence.

Coin Guilds This is one level up from a gang. They have much more organization. A leader, a council, officers, thugs, and so on. They go for more medium crimes, like smuggling. They offer lots of benefits from the organization, but ask for a lot of loyalty. There membership is more stable as most of their members don't do much flashy to get caught, and they don't just allow anyone in the guild. They will have a guild hall, often hidden as something else. A town will typical have one, and a city might have several.

Business Guild They have a set organization, exactly like a business. They go for all manner of crimes that will make money. They have benefits and ask for dedication. They have stable membership. They have lots of halls and other places. They are only found in cities and most cities only have one.

Information Guild Might be a set organization, but might be more loose. Only cares about buying and selling information. A lot of it secret, but not always. Most cities have one.

Political Guilds Set organization that is out for pure power, in whatever way they can.

It's also possible to have combined guilds, though not too many types work together.

Not all guilds are evil, some are just ''alternatives''.

[Alent]

I'm fond of the way the criminal "guilds" are depicted in the "A tale of the kin" series: organized and allied yet opposed crime organizations managing areas. There's no formal organization other than oaths of allegiance to local bosses who in turn have given their oaths to greater bosses and so on until eventually you reach the mob lords. Those oaths are based on money, respect, or fear, and lacking enough of any will usually see you betrayed/killed by either peers, betters, or lessers.

The criminals ("Kin") hold different roles. One might work purses, others watch the streets for news, some sell information, some assassins, some local muscle, some smuggle magic, some deal in drugs, some are professional burglars.

Towards the top are the crime lords, in the Tale of the Kin series those are called "Grey Princes". They vie against each other indirectly for territory and wealth, but avoid coming into direct confrontation for fear of starting a conflict so bad that the king/emperor/etc. will come in and destroy their organizations.

There's always some infighting and competition going on, but essentially the fear of reprisal or abandonment at every level keeps the system together.

[Azoth]

I have to agree that the best way to handle them is that larger cities have multiple guilds that operate out of territories. The members know the boundaries and markings that depict where is safe and where is not. They know what business's will buy/sell stolen goods, and which will call a guard.

Small villages may have go betweens for a guild or multiple guilds but nothing concrete. These are the middle men for smugglers and fencers.

[Psyren]

The Thieves' Guild is a great source for plot hooks, internal conflict (i.e. people who are nominally on the same "side" as the protagonists/PCs, but also have goals of their own), external conflict (antagonists who do not necessarily share the BBEG's views), and information. They also dovetail nicely with the "black market" - a way to fence or purchase items that the legitimate shops would be unlikely to carry, like an evil magic item, or one that boosts activities that are not inherently evil but commonly used for evil (e.g. necromancy or sneaking.)

[Telonius]

You could take the Discworld route and have the Thieves' Guild be specifically out in the open and state-sponsored. It strictly enforces quotas to ensure an acceptable level of theft in the city, and ruthlessly hunts down freelance thieves.

[Vhaidara]

You could take the Discworld route and have the Thieves' Guild be specifically out in the open and state-sponsored. It strictly enforces quotas to ensure an acceptable level of theft in the city, and ruthlessly hunts down freelance thieves.

This was also done in the Neverwinter Nights module Kingmaker. Basically, if something was stolen, you knew where to go to buy back your family heirloom. Meanwhile, all the rest applied as well: You had a group of the most knowledgeable criminals to hunt down freelancers.

[Flickerdart]

You could take the model of S.T.A.L.K.E.R.'s traders, after a fashion. The Zone has a bunch of factions, but the most interesting ones for the analogy are the neutral loners and the traders they pawn their goods to. The loners frequently get into fights with Duty, Freedom, bandits, the military, and sometimes even each other, but the traders keep the peace in a way - shooting your fellow loners means the trader has less manpower to marshal, which means he gets less profit, which means he gets angry and puts out a job to have you killed. And there are lots of angry Slavs with guns out there...

Similarly, fences could act as the leaders of a loose confederation of thieves. All stolen goods go through them. Infighting is not tolerated for the same reason as above. A thief might never even meet others from his "guild" so there is no risk of someone stealing his goods. If another thief manages to blunder into a stash, the fence will know who sold him the item and can organize the necessary retribution.

Such a guild would not be interested in collecting protection money, and with a flexible membership, newbies aren't a problem. Who are they going to sell their loot to, if not the fences?

[Bulldog Psion]

The Thieves' Guild is a great source for plot hooks, internal conflict (i.e. people who are nominally on the same "side" as the protagonists/PCs, but also have goals of their own), external conflict (antagonists who do not necessarily share the BBEG's views), and information. They also dovetail nicely with the "black market" - a way to fence or purchase items that the legitimate shops would be unlikely to carry, like an evil magic item, or one that boosts activities that are not inherently evil but commonly used for evil (e.g. necromancy or sneaking.)

I think this is the main reason why they're popular. They are an excellent story device which can make urban adventures actually interesting.

[Deophaun]

My answer to this is the Thieve's Guild in a city should be extremely difficult to find, unless you have the right connections.
The precise opposite, actually.

The point of a guild is to monopolize the labor of skilled artisans. As such, guilds get rather touchy when new players enter their territory and start competing with their members. So, if you want to get in touch with the thieves guild, all you have to do is start thieving. They'll be in touch. Quickly. Probably after they've helped the town guard arrest you (which is why they are somewhat tolerated).

[Elricaltovilla]

A thieve's guild is no different than a street gang or mob family, really. They're a group of people that get together and commit acts of organized crime together, sharing the profits among them according to the level of skill and involvement in the crime.

The thieve's guild in Skyrim was pretty open, but they weren't just going around stealing fancy artifacts, they were engaged in protection racketeering, shakedowns, fraud, fencing and smuggling. All of those are different kinds of theft, and anyone who joins benefited from the work of his or her fellows.

[Scorponok]

Here are some of my ideas for the way Thieves' Guilds are run in my campaign. I haven't implemented them yet, hence, the discussion.
----------------------------

Each city that has a thieves' guild puts out symbols. These symbols are often hidden, written in alleyways and places people don't frequent. They vary in shapes and colors, but essentially, they are maps of city neighborhoods and will tell the PC where their thieves "gates" are. These "gates" aren't gates per se, but areas that have a set of barrels or another object placed out in the open. The object of the exercise is to find all the "gates" and walk between the barrels, then do it in the next neighborhood the 2nd, 3rd, etc. "gate" is located at. The PC may have to do this more than once, but eventually, someone will observe the PC is walking through the gates in the correct order.

Near the last gate, eventually, someone places an object. This could be a mug, a sword, a flower or another object that makes it obvious who next to speak to. (mug for tavern owner, sword for blacksmith, flower for potion maker. The PC then goes to the shop, and starts up a conversation with the owner.

During this next phase, the PC would have had to memorize the Thieve's Cant before this. Basically, what this is is a set of words members of Thieves' Guild look for, similar to a secret handshake.

Instead of House, you are suppose to say Residence.
Instead of Guard, you are suppose to say Watch.
Instead of Job or Work, you are suppose to say Task.
Instead of Road, you are suppose to say Trail.
Instead of Fight, you are suppose to say Dustup or Ruckus.
Instead of Beer or Ale, you are suppose to say Cold One.
Instead of Fighter or Bandit, you are suppose to say Hooligan.
Instead of Noble, you are suppose to say Highborn.

The shopkeeper (who is a part of the guild) will look for these telltale signs in your speech, and when he realizes what is happening, will pull you aside to "talk in the back" or give you a key and ask you to fetch something for him. This is the PC's in.

The door to the Thieves' Guild opens, and there are a bunch of workers that serve as gatekeepers to private rooms. In these private rooms, there is usually a table, a chair, and a candle. There is a Whispering Flame spell on the candle, and from there, the PC talks to the person on the other end.

There are several companies that need jobs handled. These represent merchant guilds, official forces of the current ruler of the land, the ruler's enemies, criminal organizations, and various other factions. Some of the names they claim are, The Dark Dhalia Mercenary Company, League of the Unicorn, Blue Serpent Legion, The Moonlight Faction, Razorfin Alliance, and Circle of the Seven Swords. Completing a task for one of these organizations will get you rewards as well as medallion coins with the company's crest on them. Some companies will not offer tasks to those who haven't many medallions, and those with a lot of medallions may be offered tasks that pay very well. Each medallion is numbered, and this number corresponds with a certain task that the PC completed.

Don't bother asking who runs these organizations, or looking for them anywhere. They are simply code names for special interest groups who may or may not be related to any official organization.

It is possible that law enforcement can infiltrate the Thieves' Guild, but upon breaking in, all they would see are workers who's sole job is to direct people to rooms with candles and to confirm the numbers on medallions. Most of the time, these workers have no idea who they are working for, and they travel from city to city doing this. The medallions are worthless because each one corresponds to an already completed task the company knows who completed, so there is a safety net if the company suspects one of their workers has been compromised.

[Starbuck_II]

A thieve's guild is no different than a street gang or mob family, really. They're a group of people that get together and commit acts of organized crime together, sharing the profits among them according to the level of skill and involvement in the crime.

The thieve's guild in Skyrim was pretty open, but they weren't just going around stealing fancy artifacts, they were engaged in protection racketeering, shakedowns, fraud, fencing and smuggling. All of those are different kinds of theft, and anyone who joins benefited from the work of his or her fellows.

They were known, but not "open": Remember the guards wish get rid of them in most town's. The official guild in Riften ois in the sewers.

Yes, the mafia one run by that lady is more in the open in Riften, but she isn't the Thieves Guild officially.

[Zarrgon]

I always try to discourage a player from wanting their character to join a thieves guild in a normal adventure game. There simply is no point to join a group in name only. The character can say they are in the guild, and then they just go on the adventure. Maybe months later they will ask ''hey what ever happened to the guild?''

It really only works for urban adventures, and even then most guilds are evil at best. So they don't make the best allies.