AfterLife of the Stick

[StoryKeeper]

So where do you think the heroes/villains/others (that means you Miko) would go if they died. I apologize if this hase already been posted somehwere.

[ElfLad]

Tonight, Larceny Guy dines in the Evil Plane.

[Assassinfox]

:roy: Mount Celestia, Lawful Good outer plane
:durkon: Celestia as well
:miko: Acheron, Lawful, slightly Evil outer plane of endless war
:haley: Quasielemental Plane of Minerals, so she can be with her precious gold
:elan: Arborea, Chaotic Good outer plane, proxy of Banjo
:belkar: C'mon, who are we kidding? Straight to the Abyss
:vaarsuvius: Mechanus, Straightup Lawful plane
:sabine: This IS her afterlife.
:nale: The Nine Hells. C'mon, you know he deserves it.
:thog: The Beastlands, reborn as a puppy.
:xykon: The Grey Wastes of Hades, he's so apathetic that he'd fit right in.
:redcloak: Also Acheron. The DnD Goblin deity is there and, more importantly, it'd be fitting to send him to the same afterlife as Miko

[mockingbyrd7]

:roy: Mount Celestia, Lawful Good outer plane
:durkon: Celestia as well
:miko: Acheron, Lawful, slightly Evil outer plane of endless war
:haley: Quasielemental Plane of Minerals, so she can be with her precious gold
:elan: Arborea, Chaotic Good outer plane, proxy of Banjo
:belkar: C'mon, who are we kidding? Straight to the Abyss
:vaarsuvius: Mechanus, Straightup Lawful plane
:sabine: This IS her afterlife.
:nale: The Nine Hells. C'mon, you know he deserves it.
:thog: The Beastlands, reborn as a puppy.
:xykon: The Grey Wastes of Hades, he's so apathetic that he'd fit right in.
:redcloak: Also Acheron. The DnD Goblin deity is there and, more importantly, it'd be fitting to send him to the same afterlife as Miko

I think you pretty much nailed it.

[MinMax]

:haley: Quasielemental Plane of Minerals, so she can be with her precious gold
:elan: Arborea, Chaotic Good outer plane, proxy of Banjo


But then she won't be with her precious Elan!

[Assassinfox]

But then she won't be with her precious Elan!

Could send them both to Ysgard. Chaotic, with a slight pinch of good. Endless feasting and adventuring for everyone. :smallsmile:

[Sean92k]

:thog: The Beastlands, reborn as a puppy.Yay for thog, :¬D

[Rama_Lei]

Miko isn't evil. Toss her into Celestia.

[Assassinfox]

Miko isn't evil. Toss her into Celestia.

And have her hacking up the natives? She screwed up Big Time, and sending her to Acheron would be the most appropriate if she doesn't atone before dying.

Besides, she fits in better in a Stick-Up-The-Butt Lawful plane where everyone's always fighting than on a peaceful plane like Celestia.

:miko: "All these goblins and orcs armed for war? SMITE EVIL!"

[Sage in the Playground]

Miko isn't evil. Toss her into Celestia.

The same one as Roy?! She'd think he snuck in and then wreck the place. Acheron.


EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Raeden]

:xykon: The Grey Wastes of Hades, he's so apathetic that he'd fit right in.


Do liches go anywhere at all when they're destroyed?

[Algrim Wubble]

Do liches go anywhere at all when they're destroyed?

Yes, once their phylactery is destroyed and the soul "set free" so to speak, it goes to whatever plane it would have went to normaly. So if Xykon was going to go to Aceron/Nine Hells/Abyss/Gehenna/whereever, if both his body and phylactery are destroyed, that's where he'll end up.

[BisectedBrioche]

:sabine: This IS her afterlife.

Elemental outsiders are undead?

[Assassinfox]

Elemental outsiders are undead?

Errrrr, you can't be both an Elemental AND an Outsider. And I'm pretty sure Sabine's not an elemental.

Demons and Devils evolve from larva, which are the souls of evil beings who died. Thus, she IS the afterlife of some evil person who already died. Plus, when outsiders are destroyed, they're gone for good, so whenever Haley finally destroys her, it's Game Over.

[draca]

:durkon: would have to go to Ysgard. It's the home of his god, and beyond that, he would be reunited with his ancestors. He'd be miserable there since it's so chaotic, but he'd be disconsolate anywhere else.

And, :miko: defiantly Acheron, unless she atoned before she died. Full Agreement.

:mitd: has my vote for either Pandemonium or possibly the Outlands. He/she/it hasn't really shown any inclinations toward absolute evil - but really is just too darn mysterious to know for sure.

[lord_khaine]

i disagree about Miko, just because you have done a singel evil act does not mean the gods forget a lifetime of service

[Kesnit]

Plus, when outsiders are destroyed, they're gone for good, so whenever Haley finally destroys her, it's Game Over.

I thought they could only permanently die if they are killed on their home plane. Since :sabine: is an outsider, she would just reform on her home plane - whatever that is.

[PsyBlade]

She'd be sent home. IF Haley destroys her on her home plane, then she's gone for good.

[Assassinfox]

I thought they could only permanently die if they are killed on their home plane. Since :sabine: is an outsider, she would just reform on her home plane - whatever that is.

I never said that wasn't the case. I'm saying that her existence is already someone else's afterlife, and when she DOES get destroyed, that's it.


i disagree about Miko, just because you have done a singel evil act does not mean the gods forget a lifetime of service

A lifetime of service? More like a lifetime of smiting. Miko obviously cares more about the "Lawful" part of LG than the "Good" part, so a dominantly Lawful plane of endless fighting is perfect for her.

[WarDragon]

Haley would go to Arborea, with Elan, as both are solidly CG. Souls don't go to the elemental planes, since those are realms of pure matter, rather than spirit.

[Assassinfox]

Haley would go to Arborea, with Elan, as both are solidly CG. Souls don't go to the elemental planes, since those are realms of pure matter, rather than spirit.

Souls DO go to the elemental planes, but it's extremely rare. Followers of Kossuth, for example, go to the Elemental Plane of Fire.

Besides thinking that Haley's too selfish to be CG, the only way I can see Haly fitting in Arborea is if she became a tomb robber on the third layer.

[draca]

i disagree about Miko, just because you have done a single evil act does not mean the gods forget a lifetime of service

That's why no one has so far suggested that :miko: is going to the 9 hells. Acheron is a neutral plane. However it is a plane of strife; the perfect place for a soul that died while in a state of flux who's lived and died by the sword.

She still does not believe she'd even done wrong, and has fully justified an evil act. This shows evidence of an internalization of her actions. Not that she's crazy, but that she feels that she was acting right and properly. That isn't the attitude of a good person who's committed a single evil act. Her alignment has probably been drifting away from good for a while - it just took her this long to actually be put in a situation to put that to the test.

[Eldan]

Also, the Mercykillers hang around in Acheron. She would love to join this guys. Although, if she atoned she could go to Arcadia and join the Harmonium, which would be nearly as fitting.

[BardicLasher]

Demons and Devils evolve from larva, which are the souls of evil beings who died. Thus, she IS the afterlife of some evil person who already died. Plus, when outsiders are destroyed, they're gone for good, so whenever Haley finally destroys her, it's Game Over.

That's almost always true with Devils, yes, but Demons do this thing called "reproduce." Many demonesses can get pregnant (wheras only a select few devils can [Erinyes and Uniques]) and it's perfectly possible for Sabine to have a mother and father, in which case this is just the only life she's getting.

[Lizard Lord]

Souls DO go to the elemental planes, but it's extremely rare. Followers of Kossuth, for example, go to the Elemental Plane of Fire.

Besides thinking that Haley's too selfish to be CG, the only way I can see Haly fitting in Arborea is if she became a tomb robber on the third layer.

As long as you are not putting others lives at stake in the process, being selfish is more of a chaotic thing then an evil thing. She does not take from those that need the gold to survive does she? What does exactly does the arty lose from taking the gold? The ability to buy luxary items? Haley needs the money for her dad. Also, only pure souls were allowed to touch activate the sigils in Dorukon's Dungeon. I believe only good aligned people are considered pure souls. Plus she did help out those dirt farmers without complaining or asking for any sort of reward.

[EvilElitest]

Miko isn't evil. Toss her into Celestia.

.......yeah.
WEll last time Miko was put into a place surrounded by LG people she went pycho. I think the plane of endless battle would suit her better
from,
EE

[NeonRonin]

Now my curiosity's been aroused... which plane would Eugene Greenhilt be calling his home right now? Seems to me he might not fit in perfectly on Mount Celestia(he tied up an ANGEL and helped rig a trial), so where does his ghost reside when he's not lounging around in the summoning circle in Azure City? Part of me is tempted to say Arborea, but Elysium might be good as well(I can't remember if Elysium is for Neutral Good spirits or not).

I'm also curious about Julia... what Outer Plane do True Neutrals go to again? I've forgotten.

[Wrecan]

The Outlands.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Miko to Acheron? Well, that is an odd suggestion. She went through with a very crazy and misguided act, arguably evil, which people here would have thought was very cool and radical if she'd been a PC and the story had been a different one and she had been right. We know she was LG before. I can understand that some people think she must have undergone an alignment change because of this single incident, though I don't personally agree, but to think she is now more evil than good? This perspective and these undertones of kicking someone who is down I do not get. Arcadia seems to fit her perfectly: more L than G, but still G. (Mechanus is just a heap of modrons; no one with character really goes there.)

PS. Woo! Miko threads, you just can't keep 'em down etc.

[Assassinfox]

(I can't remember if Elysium is for Neutral Good spirits or not).

Yup, neutral good. Eugene acts pretty chaotic. I think he'd go to Arborea like you suggested.


Miko to Acheron? Well, that is an odd suggestion...

She hacks up defenseless octegenarians. That's pretty darned evil. Furthermore, her "I am the law" attitude wouldn't mix well with Arcadia. The Harmonium don't like murderers anymore than anyone else.

[Stormthorn]

:vaarsuvius: Mechanus, Straightup Lawful plane


I always though of V as being straight-up chaotic.

[Coffee_Dragon]

She hacks up defenseless octegenarians.

If this had been a comic about valiant heroes who battle corrupt infiltrators hiding behind a veneer of law, tradition and appeals to pragmatism, and who at the critical moment end up cutting to the heart of evil in a desperate, decisive act of faith and courage, readers would not use those five words to sum up the situation. They would applaud it for a Chaotic Good act - the polar opposite of your Lawful Evil.

Vigilantes are popular when they are made to be right.

[Assassinfox]

If this had been a comic about valiant heroes who battle corrupt infiltrators hiding behind a veneer of law, tradition and appeals to pragmatism, and who at the critical moment end up cutting to the heart of evil in a desperate, decisive act of faith and courage, readers would not use those five words to sum up the situation. They would applaud it for a Chaotic Good act - the polar opposite of your Lawful Evil.

Vigilantes are popular when they are made to be right.

The thing is... Shojo isn't a corrupt infiltrator. If the heroes are so valiant, they'd have a better reason to be killing those guys than just "He said something I didn't like or even understand, so I'm gonna go with my gut instinct and kill him instead of investigating further!"

[Coffee_Dragon]

The thing is... Shojo isn't a corrupt infiltrator. If the heroes are so valiant, they'd have a better reason to be killing those guys than just "He said something I didn't like or even understand, so I'm gonna go with my gut instinct and kill him instead of investigating further!"

All true! But in a lot of fiction the "good" guys beat some people up and call it a day and gain everyone's approval even if they skipped a few steps in the investigation chain, assuming there is something like one. The possibility that they might be horribly wrong (or, even if they got the facts straight, might be morally wrong) is usually not even brought into the picture because it would just dilute the narrative. The audience doesn't question this convention because consistently doing so would be missing the point. Miko thought she was in one of those stories. She was horribly wrong, no question there, but is it the wrongness that defines alignment, that in a blink changes alignment? If she wakes up in Acheron, she better be in good company is all I'm saying.

[Assassinfox]

It's not like Miko wouldn't like Acheron. Armies of evil creatures waiting to be slaughtered? She'll think it's Heaven. :smallwink:

[draca]

I always though of V as being straight-up chaotic.

Hmmm Good point.

While Mechanus is a plane of pure order, which would appeal to a logical mind, they don't take too kindly to explosive runes in Mechanus.

Where would :vaarsuvius: wind up?

I always have the feeling of a True Neutral alignment from Vaarsuvius. If you haven't noticed, s/he likes to sit on the fence, and seems as likely to be acting cruel as kind, and lawful as chaotic, depending on what is judged most expedient for the situation.

My vote's in for the Outlands. Boccob, the God of magic dwells there, and there is no more of an "Anything you can make of it" realm out there (excepting Limbo of course. Way too chaotic for V, who'd just be annoyed when spell books turn into hamsters and run away).

[TroyXavier]

I'd venture V would end up in the Outlands.

[Assassinfox]

Yeah... I'm beginning to think V's more of a TN and would go to the Outlands. A lot of wizards hang out there, anyway.

[MReav]

I put MitD into the Far Realms, largely because I think he's some kind of Pseudonatural creature that got Wisdom Drained.

[Fighteer]

Haley and Elan are both pretty solidly CG, although Haley may have more CN tendencies, I can't see her being happy in Limbo. Any afterlife where they aren't together would be pretty darn cruel IMO.

Sabine is an outsider, but she is physically on the Material Plane, not summoned via a spell. Therefore, if she's slain, she is gone for good (well, short of a wish or equivalent)

V is classic True Neutral, so to the Outlands for him/her.

As for Miko, I wonder if Rich will simply have someone cast Detect Good, Detect Law, Detect Chaos, and Detect Evil on her all in sequence, just to clear up the mystery?

[Wrecan]

Here's where I would out them...

:roy: Arcadia... peaceful, harmonious and quite dull.
:durkon: Bytopia... industrious and hardworking. And you can't beat beer grown from Celestial hops!
:miko: Acheron... Endless fighting against evil folk? Heck yeah!
:haley: Ysgard... chaotic good-ish and epic fighting against questionable foes. Get your sneak attacks ready.
:elan: Ysgard... where there is epic fighting, there needs to be a bard making epic poetry.
:belkar: Abyss... and Belkar's counting on getting fast-tracked to demon status.
:vaarsuvius: Outlands... Where else to ponder the entire multiverse than from the plane connected to them all?
:nale: Gehenna... Yes, it's not the diametric opposite of Ysgard, where Elan goes... but wouldn't that be the worst torment you could impose on Nale? Plus, forbidding cliffs seems just the right backdrop for the endless diabolical schemes that are the norm for the plane. Nale fits right in here.
:thog: Pandemonium... constant battle and fighting. Yeah!
:xykon: Gray Waste... he would be depressed and apathetic if all his schemes go for naught.
:redcloak: Acheron. I agree the irony of sending him with Miko is great. But it also seems like a plane well-suited for him.

[BisectedBrioche]

:belkar: Abyss... and Belkar's counting on getting fast-tracked to demon status.

Hang on, I just had a thought;

Maybe the Oracle's prophecy will come true and he'll come back into the strip as a demon with brand new abilities....

[Assassinfox]

Here's where I would out them...

:roy: Arcadia... peaceful, harmonious and quite dull.


I kinda interpreted Roy's scolding Miko for following "the letter of lawful good instead of the spirit" to mean that Roy is more Good than Lawful. If he doesn't go to Celestia, wouldn't he go to Bytopia?

[Coffee_Dragon]

V is Good as stated by Rich. Law-Chaos axis is up for debate.

[Assassinfox]

V is Good as stated by Rich. Law-Chaos axis is up for debate.

Where did Rich state that?

[Jaguira]

Anyone got a link to some sort of refference site so I can actually join in the discussion? I have no idea what all these planes are except for the Abyss...

[Innis Cabal]

:miko: Carceri- the Prison plane....sorry but no other plane makes sense

everyone else seems to goin to the right place

[Assassinfox]

:miko: Carceri- the Prison plane....sorry but no other plane makes sense

everyone else seems to goin to the right place

How does Acheron not make sense? It's a Lawful plane with a slight sprinkle of Evil for taste, where armies clash and fight for all eternity. Miko would fit in great, leading armies of humans against the goblins, orcs, and bladelings.

Carceri is Chaotic Evil, the prison plane for anarchists. Even with all the "What alignment is Miko now?!?!?!" debate, I kinda doubt she plunged straight to CE.

[Innis Cabal]

oh, she isnt chaotic, thats for sure...but guess what, it dosnt matter if your alignment isnt the same as the plane, it dosnt mean you still cant go there. She committed Regicide, the planes arnt "where they would fit in great" or where they would have a great time, if they are evil, evil planes are about punishment. There is nothing more that the Faratsu would love then a fallen paladin to fall into their laps to torment for all time.

Yes if this was about where the people would fit in your right, Archeon is the right place for her, but her afterlife will be one of punishment for her crimes in life since she has not and will not give in to her evil side. Not only that but Baator would be more be better for her since its about control and thats what miko wants

[Assassinfox]

Archeon is the right place for her, but her afterlife will be one of punishment for her crimes in life since she has not and will not give in to her evil side. Not only that but Baator would be more be better for her since its about control and thats what miko wants

Acheron IS punishment. She's never gonna find the goodness and peace she was meant to protect and uphold.

And killing one leader in a fit of rage doesn't make her a plotting anarchist. Carceri is an unsuitable punishment for her crime.

[DLouve]

[QUOTE=draca;2338108]:durkon: would have to go to Ysgard. It's the home of his god, and beyond that, he would be reunited with his ancestors. He'd be miserable there since it's so chaotic, but he'd be disconsolate anywhere else.


well, as long as there's beer, I think he'll be quite happy there...

[Innis Cabal]

Carceri is not only for anarchist's, its for prisoners, murderer's (gee wodner who im thinking of), and other such people. Archeon is not the right place for her, at all, since its more Evil then Law. Baator would be the best place now that i think about it but Archeon is clearly right out since its not going to be a punishment for her to kill evil, even if she is not going to get the peace of killing evil she isnt the kind of person that wants peace. She wants to slay evil and thats what she will get, a whole lot of killing evil....so how does she suffer? The answer, is she dosnt

[Assassinfox]

Carceri is not only for anarchist's, its for prisoners, murderer's (gee wodner who im thinking of), and other such people. Archeon is not the right place for her, at all, since its more Evil then Law. Baator would be the best place now that i think about it but Archeon is clearly right out since its not going to be a punishment for her to kill evil, even if she is not going to get the peace of killing evil she isnt the kind of person that wants peace. She wants to slay evil and thats what she will get, a whole lot of killing evil....so how does she suffer? The answer, is she dosnt

You consider being forced to fight in a pointless war for the rest of eternity not suffering?

Furthermore, Acheron is more Lawful than Evil. Miko's not just some random murderer or criminal, she's a stuckup overzealous crusader who thinks she's right. Carceri is about the slow double-edged sword of being eternally plotting, but never getting free. Acheron, is about eternally fighting, but never accomplishing anything. Miko's a fighter, not a plotter.


Anyone got a link to some sort of refference site so I can actually join in the discussion? I have no idea what all these planes are except for the Abyss...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Plane

[jindra34]

Carceri is not only for anarchist's, its for prisoners, murderer's (gee wodner who im thinking of), and other such people. Archeon is not the right place for her, at all, since its more Evil then Law. Baator would be the best place now that i think about it but Archeon is clearly right out since its not going to be a punishment for her to kill evil, even if she is not going to get the peace of killing evil she isnt the kind of person that wants peace. She wants to slay evil and thats what she will get, a whole lot of killing evil....so how does she suffer? The answer, is she dosnt

Your afterlife is based on alignement... so the dark/evil charecters go to the "lower" planes to be punished no one is sure whether Miko is evil but she definately is at least neutral and nowhere near the chaos required for Carceri... so you may have screwed up some...:tongue:

[Innis Cabal]

ya, it is based on alingment most times, but there are times when people go to other planes when they deserve it. And no i dont think for miko eternal fighting against evil would be suffering in any use of the word. I think she would adore killing the evil things that lived there. Again i did say that i reconsidered and Baator would be better for her, since its LE as well since she isnt NE as far as we know, or even evil, but thats a moot point here, ARcheon just dosnt seem to be the right place sense most of the people how have said it posted it becuase "She would fit in so well" and you yourself assasinfox said it would be heaven for her

[Assassinfox]

ya, it is based on alingment most times, but there are times when people go to other planes when they deserve it. And no i dont think for miko eternal fighting against evil would be suffering in any use of the word. I think she would adore killing the evil things that lived there. Again i did say that i reconsidered and Baator would be better for her, since its LE as well since she isnt NE as far as we know, or even evil, but thats a moot point here, ARcheon just dosnt seem to be the right place sense most of the people how have said it posted it becuase "She would fit in so well" and you yourself assasinfox said it would be heaven for her

I was joking about calling it heaven. And it fits so well as a PUNISHMENT. For every goblin/orc/bladeling/whatever she cuts down is a thousand more. The sheer pointlessness and monotony weighs down on the soul. It's basically "You want to kill things? Fine! Kill things for the rest of eternity!"

[Innis Cabal]

At the same time i don't see it weighing down her soul. I see her saying "More to kill?! THis surely is gods gift for my life of justice and good! Come foul beasts i shall slay you no matter how many there are!"

[jindra34]

At the same time i don't see it weighing down her soul. I see her saying "More to kill?! THis surely is gods gift for my life of justice and good! Come foul beasts i shall slay you no matter how many there are!"

Short term your right but after the fifty-billionth or so she will start to doubt the impact she is making... especially if she fights the same 30 goblin dudes again.

Sorry about the double teaming.

[Assassinfox]

At the same time i don't see it weighing down her soul. I see her saying "More to kill?! THis surely is gods gift for my life of justice and good! Come foul beasts i shall slay you no matter how many there are!"

If that remained the case, her delusion would be a punishment in itself.

Besides, if she really was THAT dense, Carceri or Baator wouldn't be "punishments" either.

[Kreistor]

It's true that a single act doesn't change your alignment, but Miko has an ongoing issue, particularly the hubris that inspires her delusions, that can. It is becoming an increasingly significant problem, to the point that she is no longer living in the real world.

Insanity is Chaotic Neutral. Limbo. Maybe Pandemonium.

[jindra34]

It's true that a single act doesn't change your alignment, but Miko has an ongoing issue, particularly the hubris that inspires her delusions, that can. It is becoming an increasingly significant problem, to the point that she is no longer living in the real world.

Insanity is Chaotic Neutral. Limbo. Maybe Pandemonium.

People are not sure Miko is insane see thread on "is Miko is insane?"

[Kreistor]

I know. It's wishful thinking.

[Assassinfox]

It's true that a single act doesn't change your alignment, but Miko has an ongoing issue, particularly the hubris that inspires her delusions, that can. It is becoming an increasingly significant problem, to the point that she is no longer living in the real world.

Insanity is Chaotic Neutral. Limbo. Maybe Pandemonium.

Insanity isn't inherently Chaotic. And Miko has absolutely no place in Limbo or Pandemonium. The two places have absolutely nothing to do with her personality or crime.

[Innis Cabal]

i have to agree with assasin on that one

[Coffee_Dragon]

Where did Rich state that?

Don't know, it was a long time ago (I remember people linking to it from alignment threads, but that was some time ago as well, before the new forum). To be precise, he simply said everyone in the Order is Good except Belkar. Of course, it's not canon if he only says it in the forum, but I assume it's how things stand until he sees any reason to change it.

[Kreistor]

Insanity isn't inherently Chaotic. And Miko has absolutely no place in Limbo or Pandemonium. The two places have absolutely nothing to do with her personality or crime.

And her delusions have nothing to do with reality. In Limbo, Miko can manipulate the plane to resemble anything she thinks is real. Given her delusional nature, Limbo is the ideal place for her. Everything will always be exactly the way she thinks it is. She can think she's in Celestia, and it will seem exactly like that.

[Assassinfox]

And her delusions have nothing to do with reality. In Limbo, Miko can manipulate the plane to resemble anything she thinks is real. Given her delusional nature, Limbo is the ideal place for her. Everything will always be exactly the way she thinks it is.

Her delusions DO have some basis in reality. Limbo is the place for people who think purple elephants are eating people's toenails at noon with kevlar sporks. Not for former-paladins who refuse to accept that they're wrong.

[Innis Cabal]

she should not be rewarded or even given the ability to beleive she is rewarded, thats not a punishment at all. Torture, dispair and showing her everything she did wrong would be the only thing she would see as punishment

[Felius]

I don't know about Miko. I'd like to see more of her before passing judgment.

Now, about V, I see h(im/er) gaining h(is/er) own demi-plane and rulling it for all eternity. Even maybe gaining divine ranks.

[jindra34]

I don't know about Miko. I'd like to see more of her before passing judgment.

Now, about V, I see h(im/er) gaining h(is/er) own demi-plane and rulling it for all eternity. Even maybe gaining divine ranks.

Hmmm... that last bit does suit V especially because s/he is going to achieve ultimate power at some point (see oracles predictions)... but then again how does one create any kind of (demi-)plane:smallsigh:

[Innis Cabal]

spells and powers. There are two printed and if Dicefreaks was up i could give you at least nine epic spells

[Yogi]

Hmmm... that last bit does suit V especially because s/he is going to achieve ultimate power at some point (see oracles predictions)... but then again how does one create any kind of (demi-)plane:smallsigh:Using the Genesis arcane spell/psionic power.

[Assassinfox]

I don't know about Miko. I'd like to see more of her before passing judgment.

Now, about V, I see h(im/er) gaining h(is/er) own demi-plane and rulling it for all eternity. Even maybe gaining divine ranks.

Dead people don't go to demiplanes when they die.

With the Demiplane of Dread being a possible exception... :smalltongue:


she should not be rewarded or even given the ability to beleive she is rewarded, thats not a punishment at all. Torture, dispair and showing her everything she did wrong would be the only thing she would see as punishment

Acheron IS everything she did wrong. Endless meaningless killing without questioning whether she is doing the right thing.

[Mister_Gorsky]

As far as dnd goes I'm an amateur at best, but is there any special consideration to be made in :miko:'s case considering the pantheon she apparantly worships... is there a special hell for those who defy the rabbit or the snake or the ox or whichever one's in charge of not-murdering-your-boss?

::edit::

Not that I'm saying Miko automatically deserves hell, but is there a separate system for her pantheon?

[Wrecan]

there are times when people go to other planes when they deserve it.According to whom? Everything I've read states that you go to the plane corresponding to your alignment.

[Black_Light83]

:roy: Mount Celestia, Lawful Good outer plane
:durkon: Celestia as well
:miko: Acheron, Lawful, slightly Evil outer plane of endless war
:haley: Quasielemental Plane of Minerals, so she can be with her precious gold
:elan: Arborea, Chaotic Good outer plane, proxy of Banjo
:belkar: C'mon, who are we kidding? Straight to the Abyss
:vaarsuvius: Mechanus, Straightup Lawful plane
:sabine: This IS her afterlife.
:nale: The Nine Hells. C'mon, you know he deserves it.
:thog: The Beastlands, reborn as a puppy.
:xykon: The Grey Wastes of Hades, he's so apathetic that he'd fit right in.
:redcloak: Also Acheron. The DnD Goblin deity is there and, more importantly, it'd be fitting to send him to the same afterlife as Miko

ya u hit the nailon the head there... :thog:

[Parasocrates]

As long as you are not putting others lives at stake in the process, being selfish is more of a chaotic thing then an evil thing.

I don't think selfishness is inherently chaotic. It doesn't seem (particularly) to spread disorder in the universe, nor is it associated with the characteristic qualities of a chaotic personality: free-spiritedness, impulsiveness, etc. Stealing is generally a chaotic act, but the act of stealing is not always combined with the quality of selfishness.

And though I like the idea of :vaarsuvius: going to Mechanus or the Outlands, I think V would probably go to Arborea or one of the adjacent planes, where V's "patron deity" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html) most likely resides (being elven and all).

[Assassinfox]

According to whom? Everything I've read states that you go to the plane corresponding to your alignment.

Or to the plane where your deity resides, regardless of your own alignment.

[Wrecan]

Either way, that wouldn't send Miko to Carceri. She doesn't worship a CN/CE god. She isn't chaotic CN/CE.

[Innis Cabal]

she still shouldnt go to Archeon, even if it is LE so is Baator, just becuase its a place of battle dosnt mean its an the right place for her.

[Lizard Lord]

As for where Miko goes, the good side of the divine comsmos is currently pissed off at her. Until she redeems herself I don't think it really matters what her alignment actually is when she dies (as far as where she goes that is).

[Shott]

Are we even sure that the OotSverse has the same planes? I've always pictured it always having its own. What with the Snarl and such.

[Assassinfox]

she still shouldnt go to Archeon, even if it is LE so is Baator, just becuase its a place of battle dosnt mean its an the right place for her.

She's a fighter. She flies off the bat and wants to kill things at the slightest excuse. Baator is all about political intrigue and bullying people. Not the kinda thing she's into.

[Kreistor]

Her delusions DO have some basis in reality. Limbo is the place for people who think purple elephants are eating people's toenails at noon with kevlar sporks. Not for former-paladins who refuse to accept that they're wrong.

Yeah, last I checked Shojo was conspiring with Xykon to destroy the Sapphire Guard. Nothing delusional about that at all.

[Assassinfox]

Yeah, last I checked Shojo was conspiring with Xykon to destroy the Sapphire Guard. Nothing delusional about that at all.

There's a difference between jumping to stupid conclusions and just going flatout insane.

[Laesin]

I have to say that Acheron, the plane named for the River of Woe seems apt for Miko at the moment but as she is unlikely to be killed off in the near future I'll reserve judgement until I see more of how she responds to her recent demotion.

[Kreistor]

There's a difference between jumping to stupid conclusions and just going flatout insane.

Yeah. It's called delusion.

You'll notice Miko is still convinced that she is doing the will of the gods. She's convinced herself that killing the OotS is her quest for atonement. Stupid conclusions? Or delusional self-justifications for acts that she wants to perform?

Miko has been delusional for a long time: it just hasn't been as evident until recently that it was her hubris that was inspiring the delusions she required to justify the actions she wanted to perform.

Go back and re-read Hinjo's conversation with her in #409. She can't resolve the internal conflict in her position vs. Roy, even when the impossibility of it is shoved in her face. She can't do that because her emotion says, "Roy must die!" but her mind is desperately trying to come up with a reason to kill him despite his lack of Evil nature. In the end, even uninvolved Hinjo becomes an evil she must destroy. He's now responsible for the "tainted courts" of his uncle? She knows he was never involved in those: she knows he has moved to correct their perceived position concerning Belkar. She has all the evidence in the world that Hinjo will not allow the corruptions of his Uncle to continue. But she falls back on a presumed (and unproven) fact, instead of going where reality must lead her.

Her hubris ("I am special!") has become her dominant personality trait, if it wasn't before. She supports it with delusion and schizophrenia. She may want to believe she is still lawful good, but belief is not fact, especially where Miko is concerned. Action and intent must match for self-analysis to be accurate, and Miko's is skewed near 90 degress now.

[hewhosaysfish]

I like the idea that Elan and Haley will go to Ysgard. Bard's are specifically mentioned in the description and it also mentions that if you die in the frequent battles, even though you get a True Res, someone is likely to rifle through your pockets before that happens...

I have nothing to say on the Miko debate, largely because I've never really understood D&D's Lower Planes. There's this odd collision between the Christian monotheistic idea of "bad people go to a bad place when they die and get punished" with the quasi-dualistic polytheism that exists in D&D. The Lower Planes aren't where the Good gods send you if they think you deserve it: they're the realms, the domains, the kingdoms of the Evil gods - who are equally as powerful as the Good gods. Why are they ****holes filled with lakes of fire and constant maddening howling? When Heavens provably exist, who but the most short-sighted fool would be evil?


Evil cleric: ... and when you die, your soul will be drawn to Lord Hextor's side in Baator.
Evil novice 1: And he will reward my loyal service with slaves and riches in the after-life.
Evil cleric: Nope. It doesn't work that way I'm afraid.
Evil novice 2: Ooh, I know the answer to this one!
EN1: ... ah.... Does he demand that we prove our loyalty once more, serving for another one hundred years and a day fighting demons in Hades or defending against archon crusades from Celestia... and then rewards us with slaves and riches?
EN2: I know! I know: you become a maggot!
EC: Well done, that's correct.
EN1: A maggot?
EC: A miserable crawling maggot. Assuming you don't get eaten or tortured to death by a passing devil (and thus cease to exist entirely) you can eventually become a devil yourself be devouring your larval peers in vicious life-or-oblivion struggles.
EN1: Ah! So we get to become powerful devils, like pit fiends, and tyrannise the Outer Planes!
EC: *Sighs. Hands over dunces cap* No. Stay behind after class for torture with a red-hot poker.
EN2: It takes millenia to become a pit fiend: you become a lemure, a mindless blob of slobbering flesh that gets kicked around by tougher demons.
EC: Very good, young man! You will also stay behind to be tortured with a red-hot poker.
EN2: But I knew the right answers! Why am I getting punished?!
EN1: Because we're Stupid Evil and that's the way we do things?
EC: Exactly! You may take off that cap.

[jindra34]

I like the idea that Elan and Haley will go to Ysgard. Bard's are specifically mentioned in the description and it also mentions that if you die in the frequent battles, even though you get a True Res, someone is likely to rifle through your pockets before that happens...

I have nothing to say on the Miko debate, largely because I've never really understood D&D's Lower Planes. There's this odd collision between the Christian monotheistic idea of "bad people go to a bad place when they die and get punished" with the quasi-dualistic polytheism that exists in D&D. The Lower Planes aren't where the Good gods send you if they think you deserve it: they're the realms, the domains, the kingdoms of the Evil gods - who are equally as powerful as the Good gods. Why are they ****holes filled with lakes of fire and constant maddening howling? When Heavens provably exist, who but the most short-sighted fool would be evil?


Evil cleric: ... and when you die, your soul will be drawn to Lord Hextor's side in Baator.
Evil novice 1: And he will reward my loyal service with slaves and riches in the after-life.
Evil cleric: Nope. It doesn't work that way I'm afraid.
Evil novice 2: Ooh, I know the answer to this one!
EN1: ... ah.... Does he demand that we prove our loyalty once more, serving for another one hundred years and a day fighting demons in Hades or defending against archon crusades from Celestia... and then rewards us with slaves and riches?
EN2: I know! I know: you become a maggot!
EC: Well done, that's correct.
EN1: A maggot?
EC: A miserable crawling maggot. Assuming you don't get eaten or tortured to death by a passing devil (and thus cease to exist entirely) you can eventually become a devil yourself be devouring your larval peers in vicious life-or-oblivion struggles.
EN1: Ah! So we get to become powerful devils, like pit fiends, and tyrannise the Outer Planes!
EC: *Sighs. Hands over dunces cap* No. Stay behind after class for torture with a red-hot poker.
EN2: It takes millenia to become a pit fiend: you become a lemure, a mindless blob of slobbering flesh that gets kicked around by tougher demons.
EC: Very good, young man! You will also stay behind to be tortured with a red-hot poker.
EN2: But I knew the right answers! Why am I getting punished?!
EN1: Because we're Stupid Evil and that's the way we do things?
EC: Exactly! You may take off that cap.


God what a funny image... disturbing but funny:sigh:

[the_tick_rules]

Hmm Miko, well it depends on what she does next that could determine her fate. If she goes evil and yet stays so lawful baator may be her ticket.

[Assassinfox]

I
Evil cleric: ... and when you die, your soul will be drawn to Lord Hextor's side in Baator.
Evil novice 1: And he will reward my loyal service with slaves and riches in the after-life.
Evil cleric: Nope. It doesn't work that way I'm afraid.
Evil novice 2: Ooh, I know the answer to this one!
EN1: ... ah.... Does he demand that we prove our loyalty once more, serving for another one hundred years and a day fighting demons in Hades or defending against archon crusades from Celestia... and then rewards us with slaves and riches?
EN2: I know! I know: you become a maggot!
EC: Well done, that's correct.
EN1: A maggot?
EC: A miserable crawling maggot. Assuming you don't get eaten or tortured to death by a passing devil (and thus cease to exist entirely) you can eventually become a devil yourself be devouring your larval peers in vicious life-or-oblivion struggles.
EN1: Ah! So we get to become powerful devils, like pit fiends, and tyrannise the Outer Planes!
EC: *Sighs. Hands over dunces cap* No. Stay behind after class for torture with a red-hot poker.
EN2: It takes millenia to become a pit fiend: you become a lemure, a mindless blob of slobbering flesh that gets kicked around by tougher demons.
EC: Very good, young man! You will also stay behind to be tortured with a red-hot poker.
EN2: But I knew the right answers! Why am I getting punished?!
EN1: Because we're Stupid Evil and that's the way we do things?
EC: Exactly! You may take off that cap.


Maggotdom's only for people who evil people who don't worship any gods. Followers of particular gods look like themselves.

[pendell]

Felllius,

Just passing through to say that is the kewlest avatar EVER.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Eldan]

You only become a larva/hordling/soulshell etc. in special cases. The gods get to decorate their realms according to their wishes. So Hades has a huge bank, gods of tyranny have huge castles and so on.

[Thanurel]

There's a misconception that the lower planes are designed as a place of punishment for evil creatures. Planescape specifically addressed this misconception. There is no intelligent force that punishes people for doing evil - the lower planes are sort of like the multiverse's cesspool where all evil eventually trickles down to.

Now, when you include gods in the equation, things can get a little different. When a mortal worships a god, their soul goes to that god when they die. Not all gods do the same things with the souls they get - some might punish the ones that displeased them, but that's not the same as a universal punishment for all evil creatures. Gods of death/judgment on some worlds might decide to send all evil souls to a specific place based on their own criteria, but that's the exception, not the rule.

If the lower planes were designed as a place of punishment, powerful tanar'ri, yugoloths, and baatezu wouldn't be running the show down there - they would be punished along with everyone else. As an exmple: most people are familiar with Orcus, the demon lord of the undead. He's an incredibly infuential force in The Abyss, but most probably dont' realize that he started out as a chaotic evil mortal eons ago (his history is described in the Planescape adventure Dead Gods). He died, became a larva, rose to a lower form of tanar'ri, and eventually clawed his way up to his current status. Many (but not all) other influential lower planar entities got their positions in similar ways.

That doesn't mean that everyone who goes to the lower planes gets the chance at becoming a powerful evil outsider - quite the opposite. Out of the uncountable trillions of souls that die and go to the lower planes every day, only a few of them eventually become demons or devils; most simply sit around as larvae waiting to be eaten or tortured for fun by a more powerful creature. Eventually, some of those larvae will either spontaneously evolve into a tanar'ri (in the Abyss), or be promoted by a higher authority (in Baator). That's generalizing, of course - powerful tanar'ri can, and do, promote larvae just as easily as a baatezu can. They're just not as consistent about it.

So, unless Miko's gods specifically send her soul somewhere to punish her, Miko will likely end up in one of the lawful planes. I'm not convinced she's evil just yet, but certainly headed that way if she doesn't change. If she's still LG, she'd probably end up in Arcadia - a lawful plane with strong good tendencies (LN[G]). Arcadia is a good-aligned plane, but it values conformity and obedience over good. If Miko's LN, she could still end up in Arcadia, depending on how much of her 'goodness' is left, though she would be just as likely to end up in Mechanus (LN). If she continues her slide into evil, then she could definately end up in Acheron (LN[E]) to fight in pointless battles for all eternity. Acheron is to evil as Arcadia is to good - it values order over evil, but is still an evil plane - just not as evil as Baator (LE) or Gehenna (NE[L])

The alignment in brackets represent tendencies, so Arcadia's LN(G) is Lawful Neutral with Good Tendencies. It's not official (at least not in 3e), but I've found it's a very useful way of looking at the Outer Planes. It's probably useful to note that only the 'pure' alignment planes have an outsider race associated with them. Although the Yugoloths live on Gehenna, it's interesting to note that they are originally from the Grey Waste. Gehreleths, chaotic evil outsiders who live on Carceri, were created by Apomps, a rogue yugoloth, and do not evolve from mortal souls.

Starting at Mt Celestia and working counter-clockwise:
Mt Celestia: LG - Archons
Arcadia: LG(N)
Mechanus: LN - Modrons
Acheron: LN(E)
Baator: LE - Baatezu (devils)
Gehenna: NE(L)
The Grey Waste: NE - Yugoloths
Carceri: NE(C)
The Abyss: CE - Tanar'ri (demons)
Pandemonium: CN(E)
Limbo: CN - Slaadi
Ysgard: CN(G)
Arborea: CG - Eladrin
The Beastlands: NG(C)
Elysium: NG - Guardinals
Bytopia: NG(L)
The Outlands: N - Rilmani

Of course, this all means jack squat if Rich is using his own homebrew cosmology that only superficially resembles the official one.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope this clears up any confusion.

[ElfLad]

She hacks up defenseless octegenarians.

You say that as if she did it more than once.

[MReav]

You say that as if she did it more than once.

Well, she's probably killed a few evil adult dwarves or middle-aged half-elves that were on the floor like Redcloak was.

[Parasocrates]

If the lower planes were designed as a place of punishment, powerful tanar'ri, yugoloths, and baatezu wouldn't be running the show down there - they would be punished along with everyone else.

Good point, but there's an exception: according to Fiendish Codex II, Baator (in its present state) may have originally been set up as a place to punish wrongdoers. If so, then the management has since twisted the plane's operating philosophy to its own purposes.

[draca]

well, as long as there's beer, I think he'll be quite happy there...

You have a very good point. If it's Ale, and it's Real Ale (which in Ysgard it would be) then he'll be happy.


V is Good as stated by Rich. Law-Chaos axis is up for debate.


Where did Rich state that?

This perception might also be due to a misconception over comic #202 Scanning... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html). Miko scans everyone (or tries to), and :vaarsuvius: is shown in green, NOT EVIL. That does not, however, imply that s/he is good.

[BenjCano]

<Edited due to mind-numbing ignorance on my part>


oh, she isnt chaotic, thats for sure...but guess what, it dosnt matter if your alignment isnt the same as the plane, it dosnt mean you still cant go there. She committed Regicide, the planes arnt "where they would fit in great". . .

If I understand you correctly here, you mean to suggest that the act of murder is somehow worse if the person one slays happens to be a monarch? I don't think I agree with your unstated premise here, which is that the D&D universe is happy to enforce punishment against those who aren't big on indentured servitude.

[Assassinfox]

One word answer, my friend. Orcus.

Ummmm... Orcus isn't an elemental either.

[BenjCano]

I need to read more carefully then, don't I? I read your statement as being one couldn't be an undead and an outsider. Mea culpa.