Help with a gestalt build

[Drakno]

My group is preparing for a gestalt game and I wanna make a duskblade/wizard gish. Our dm allows more or less everything that is not homebrewed (3.0, 3.5, dragon magazine and d20 material) and has told us there will probably be more than the expected wealth per level, I already asked him if he allows ultimate magus and he said yes mainly cause he knows I make my builds mostly based around what I like aesthetically. We are also not using fractional values. I have spent a while on this build and I would like advice if there's something else I should consider. I have no idea what the second member will be making an the third will make a venerable dragonwrought kobolt archivist/wizard theurge build that pretty much has access to everything and is SAD after that one feat that makes the bonus spells attribute be INT for the archivist so I don't really think I will be too strong for the party and I don't mind being a bit weaker so all is fine in my book. the majority of the work is compiled in this excel file http://www.filedropper.com/themagicknight (if someone know a way for me to attach files to the post rather than using a 3rd party site btw I'd appreciate the info) it pretty much have everything other than background and duskblade spells known since I have yet to get to choosing. I have done quite a bit of research for this build but seeing how I am just one man I am certain there are many things I haven't considered that you might know. Thanks for helping.

[TheMooch]

So duskblade//wizard will be played as a gish (I'm guessing). So I will give you some other options, I will also be assuming that dual prc's will be allowed since ultimate magus will be

1.)
Wizard/elf paragon/swiftblade/abjurant champion//warblade/JadePheonix Mage/Eternal Blade
This build focuses on int synergy and lots of actions. With arcane strike and JPM you can burn your spells for extra damage and you have manuevers for ... well for fun.

2.)
Duskblade 13/swiftblade 2/telflammar shadowlord 5//spellthief 1/cloistered cleric 1/sha'ir 3/unseen seer 2/incantatrix 4/crusader 1/ruby knight vindicator 8
This build focuses on normal duskblade behavior until it picks up manuevers and shadow pouncing while channeling on a full attack.

[Drakno]

Though ultimate magus is in as an exception still can't get dual prestige classes, also it's supposed to be an arcane only build. Shadowlord was a great idea though, shadow pounce seems both amazing optimization-wise and aesthetically fits with my character, the issues are that I don't want to add any templates and I am sorta stuck with thautam as my deity since it's the only deity I found that had the darkness domain and took LG followers (the scrolls of uncertain provenance (knowledge theme) require you to be either lawful or true neutral and I need to be good for greater luminous armor (light and darkness theme)). I'll see if maybe I can convince my dm to allow any darkness domain deity for shadowlord instead of just mask and if he is fine with me paying the exp for the template but not getting the template and I'll go down that route instead of warblade (though to be fair warblade also offers a lot that are worth considering if for nothing else for the int synergies). Thank you for your suggestions, I am going to start working on the shadowlord alternative approach to weight how good it is compaired to the warblade goodies.

[Nightraiderx]

I will say this: Shadowlord requires a non-good alignment, if you are looking to use stuff like luminous armor, you would have to get an exception from the dm.

Duskblade 13/Abjurrant Champ 5/2 Paragnostic Disciple//Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/ultimate Magus 5

This build lets you keep your swiftblade abilities and regain most of your lost casting levels.

Paragnostic gives you abilities like +2 AC bonus on armor spells (stacks with abjurrant champ) and +10 feet to movement granting spells. (such as haste)

You get some free metamagic using your duskblade slots.

Edit: Buy Iron Will for 2K and grab reserves of strength, that way you can break caps on spells and stuff.

Arcane Strike is probably a must. Mobile Spell casting + Duskblade Channel would allow you to use your standard action to cast spells, move into range and full attack. Tome of battle strikes do not stack well with duskblade channel/full channel, their boosts can but that really depends on what weapon style you are choosing to use. Knowledge devotion will be good for you since you have a high intelligence and can play off your paragon disciple abilities.

[sideswipe]

i will remind the thread that with gestalting you can can only prestige on one side at a time. you my not take two prestige classes as your new classes when you level

[Nightraiderx]

i will remind the thread that with gestalting you can can only prestige on one side at a time. you my not take two prestige classes as your new classes when you level

Point taken. Then the build I was suggesting really reduces to Duskblade 20/Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Ultimate Magus 5

You loose out on abjurrant armor stuff, but you have full bab anyways and the caster level of your duskblade increases
you can even sub out some duskblade levels for fighter for some extra combat feats.

If you really want to get crazy Caster level shenanigans dip a level of spelltheif and take the master spellthief feat, then you'll have twice the caster level!

Duskblade 17/Spellthief 1/Fighter 2 you can grab martial study/martial stance for assassin's stance get another +2d6 on top of the 1d6 you'll get from Spelltheif, there's
a 2nd lvl wizard necromancy spell called wracking touch, it deals sneak attack damage on hit, so you can use the spell and induce the spell drain. The rest of the SA would have to come from items, but it's still a few spells you get to sihpon off, hell if you can steal a high enough level you can literally steal time from them (using your haste shenanigans)

[defiantdan]

are you open to different classes and builds for gishing?

[Drakno]

Point taken. Then the build I was suggesting really reduces to Duskblade 20/Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Ultimate Magus 5

You loose out on abjurrant armor stuff, but you have full bab anyways and the caster level of your duskblade increases
you can even sub out some duskblade levels for fighter for some extra combat feats.

If you really want to get crazy Caster level shenanigans dip a level of spelltheif and take the master spellthief feat, then you'll have twice the caster level!

Duskblade 17/Spellthief 1/Fighter 2 you can grab martial study/martial stance for assassin's stance get another +2d6 on top of the 1d6 you'll get from Spelltheif, there's
a 2nd lvl wizard necromancy spell called wracking touch, it deals sneak attack damage on hit, so you can use the spell and induce the spell drain. The rest of the SA would have to come from items, but it's still a few spells you get to sihpon off, hell if you can steal a high enough level you can literally steal time from them (using your haste shenanigans)

The reason I am sticking to wizard though is for the great buffs you can persist through spelldancer such as greater dimensional jumper, wraithstrike, bladeweave, greater blink, greater heroism, starmantle, repelling shield and even armor of darkness through the darkness domain power ACF from complete champion (greater luminous armor isn't a light spell so you can use both without them canceling each other out), you just "wear" the armor of darkness beneath the GLA and when you are being sneaky you exchange their positions making the armor of darkness conceal the light that makes every encounter notice you before you have a chance to get a surprise round. The wizard also gives me some great touch spells to work with including the irresistible dance which just fits too well with the theme

Also the warblade is mostly there for the dancing blade form (+5 reach is devastating with the whirlwind atk through the whirling property and full atk channeling), the avalanche of blades (persistent wraithstrike and greater blink, heck I even have an alter fate for the first natural one) and the int synergies, int to dmg vs flatfooted/flanked is huge for someone under greater blink.


are you open to different classes and builds for gishing?

I am open as long as it's arcane and aesthetically not monstrous (no alter self for crucian, no polymorphs, no extra limbs or natural atks, no bite of the were- series etc) on that regard I am very satisfied with the base class choices but I am sure there's other prestige classes I haven't considered, a great example for this would be the shadowlord that TheMooch suggested, if there was a way to get shadow pounce as a good guy it would be priceless since I can persist greater dimensional jumper and I would most certainly try to incorporate it into my build no matter what it meant I had to drop, the reason I don't is mainly that I have made a backstory for the guy and I pictured him as a lawful good or neutral good knight and that's what I wanna rp atm.

PS. I have picked nerveskitter for the 1st level spell for the ultimate magus expanded spell knowledge feature and alter fortune as the 3rd level spell but I can't decide on the 2nd level (I get the class feature pretty late so I want something that will still be relevant at the time)

[defiantdan]

You would get more out your gish if you picked wizard//factotum. be an outsider so that way you can be angels in your polymorph forms.

wizard 5/metaphysical spellshaper 3(or incantatrix 3/Tainted Scholar 2)/Initiate of the sevenfold viel 7/Archmage 3/x2//Binder1/Factotum8/Binder11.

Pick up the feat Arcane Disciple (Hero Domain). This nets you divine power, Righteous might, and Giant Size. Buy a Skillful Minotaur Greater hammer, cast greater mighty wallop on it. You've got some sweet gishing right there and a full caster if you get bored of that.

[Drakno]

You would get more out your gish if you picked wizard//factotum. be an outsider so that way you can be angels in your polymorph forms.

wizard 5/metaphysical spellshaper 3(or incantatrix 3/Tainted Scholar 2)/Initiate of the sevenfold viel 7/Archmage 3/x2//Binder1/Factotum8/Binder11.

Pick up the feat Arcane Disciple (Hero Domain). This nets you divine power, Righteous might, and Giant Size. Buy a Skillful Minotaur Greater hammer, cast greater mighty wallop on it. You've got some sweet gishing right there and a full caster if you get bored of that.

I said my dm allowed all sources but that doesn't mean he allows everything, he has put some rules down including no mighty wallop greater or not, no spells that increase my size categories (not even enlarge person) and no exotic weapons (master's touch makes stuff too easy). I don't mind these too much personally since I know that one of the other two guys will be making an archivist//wizard so he'll have plenty of restorations for my spelldancing and if you look around there is plenty of great buffs for arcane gishes if you get em persisted. I will look through the other domains though since though I like the theme behind the armor of darkness and greater luminous armor synergy it is true other domains could have more to offer, I had no idea hero domain is that good.

[Kaje]

Putting this one out there:

Dwarf Rogue 1/Monk 1/Duskblade 13/Warblade 3/Bloodstorm Blade 2//Wizard 5/Runesmith 1/Enlightened Fist 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Wizard 2.

Cast 9ths in full plate, channeling touch, ray, and 5th level area spells as melee or thrown attacks. Stab your enemies with a fireball, no save.

[Drakno]

Putting this one out there:

Dwarf Rogue 1/Monk 1/Duskblade 13/Warblade 3/Bloodstorm Blade 2//Wizard 5/Runesmith 1/Enlightened Fist 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Wizard 2.

Cast 9ths in full plate, channeling touch, ray, and 5th level area spells as melee or thrown attacks. Stab your enemies with a fireball, no save.

admittedly it took me reading the classes for me to see the combo since seeing monk lvls and full plate seems a bit controversial but after reading enlightened fists' hold ray and spellwarp I got the synergy. gotta admit though, I kinda wanna find a way to fit uncanny trickster and legacy champion in that somehow to make spells that are higher than 5th level into rays (maybe pick wizard on the side opposite to enlightened fist etc when you would lose caster levels so you'll still get to 9?) it would take longer to get online since you would have to delay getting to duskblade 13 and you'd have to drop plate (but that's what kung fu genius and carmendine monk exists for) probably but it seems like it would be possible to get an effective 9 lvl spellwarp sniper making more or less everything fair game for channeling. Gotta ask though, why rogue 1? is it for the skillpoints? Cause in that case factotum would make more sense... Either way this seems like an interesting way to play a gestalt arcane gish, not too overpowered to make you feel like you are outshining the rest of the party and making the game boring for them and unique enough to keep things interesting!

[Kaje]

Rogue is because spellwarp sniper requires sneak attack.

[Drakno]

Rogue is because spellwarp sniper requires sneak attack.

I see, then I'll go ahead and assume it's impossible to make the build I suggested with uncanny trickster >.>

[Kaje]

I've done a lot of tinkering with this one, trying to fit more into it. You can get rid of Runesmith if you want. It's not actually necessary, and would even free up the race. The Warblade and Bloodstorm Blade levels can be dumped too. They're cool, but not necessary if you just stick to melee.

[Drakno]

I intended to blow both runesmith and two of the 3 warblade levels to fit things in but if I try to keep bloodstorm then the total level of prestige classes becomes too much (7 enlightened, 5 spellwarp, 3 uncanny trickster, 3 legacy champion and 2 bloodstorm) obviously that's 20 levels right there so since you can't start off with one or get prestige classes in both sides it's impossible, even if you take out all the warblade levels and the bloodstorm levels you are still at 18 and neither enlightened fist nor spellwarp can be entered before 6 for the very simple reason that they require 8 ranks in several skills meaning you can't enter through dirty tricks like with other classes, if you drop legacy champion and stick just to trickster it would be possible though to get an effective 7 levels in spellwarp and a full caster progression. You just pick wizard opposite of enlightened fist 1,6 and trickster 1. 3 levels of your left side will be wizard, 13 will be duskblade, 1 will be rogue and 1 will be monk leaving you enough space for 2 more base class levels (I'll go ahead and assume 1 will be lion totem barbarian and the other maybe cloistered cleric for some sweet domains like knowledge and travel since they are some of the best 1 lvl dips and they break action economy with the travel domain power, charge as a swift action, full atk, channeling, my normal full atk, channeling (holy **** that is terrifying)).

EDIT: I realized afterwards that only shadow pounce gives you extra full attacks, the regular pounce just says that you may follow it with a full attack so ignore the part about charge being a swift action = extra full attack, that was stupid on my part (to my defense in my group they never let me be the bsf, I was always either the fop or the battlefield control) still I am sure that there's other great domain powers you can get from cloistered cleric (again, knowledge devotion pops to mind) so it would probably work great, luck is also a great domain power, so are dream, inquisition, liberation, time, pleasure and of course PLANNING!!! Tbh cleric 1 is pretty amazing if you don't mind playing a glorified underling of someone else (the main reason I don't like divine casters >.>) and cloistered cleric 1 is even better, ESPECIALLY if you are playing under pantheon rules and pick "sovereign host" as your religion

[Nightraiderx]

The reason I am sticking to wizard though is for the great buffs you can persist through spelldancer such as greater dimensional jumper, wraithstrike, bladeweave, greater blink, greater heroism, starmantle, repelling shield and even armor of darkness through the darkness domain power ACF from complete champion (greater luminous armor isn't a light spell so you can use both without them canceling each other out), you just "wear" the armor of darkness beneath the GLA and when you are being sneaky you exchange their positions making the armor of darkness conceal the light that makes every encounter notice you before you have a chance to get a surprise round. The wizard also gives me some great touch spells to work with including the irresistible dance which just fits too well with the theme

Also the warblade is mostly there for the dancing blade form (+5 reach is devastating with the whirlwind atk through the whirling property and full atk channeling), the avalanche of blades (persistent wraithstrike and greater blink, heck I even have an alter fate for the first natural one) and the int synergies, int to dmg vs flatfooted/flanked is huge for someone under greater blink.

I see. So maybe something like this is more to your fancy:

Duskblade 13/Warblade 7//Wizard 5/Ultimate Magus 10/Spelldancer 5

you have full channeling, ultimate magus will keep your duskblade casting up to par.
warblade starting at lvl 14 starts at 7 IL , starting you off to be able to grab 4th lvl manuevers and up. (that should cover stuff like pounce, dancing blade form
not sure what lvl avalanche is blades is)

You'll also hit warblade 6, which will allow you to hit flat-footed.

If you find a way to circumvent the fatigue (if the dm allows that) or use the diamond mind fort save (easier to beat higher d/c's with a concentration check)
Then you probably only need 1 level of spelldancer and could fill the rest with abjurant champion.

[Drakno]

I see. So maybe something like this is more to your fancy:

Duskblade 13/Warblade 7//Wizard 5/Ultimate Magus 10/Spelldancer 5

you have full channeling, ultimate magus will keep your duskblade casting up to par.
warblade starting at lvl 14 starts at 7 IL , starting you off to be able to grab 4th lvl manuevers and up. (that should cover stuff like pounce, dancing blade form
not sure what lvl avalanche is blades is)

You'll also hit warblade 6, which will allow you to hit flat-footed.

If you find a way to circumvent the fatigue (if the dm allows that) or use the diamond mind fort save (easier to beat higher d/c's with a concentration check)
Then you probably only need 1 level of spelldancer and could fill the rest with abjurant champion.

considering the original build was duskblade13/warblade7//wizard5/abjurant champion5/ultimate magus1/paragnostic apostle1/spelldancer1/ultimate magus5/paragnostic apostle1/spelldancer1 yes that is very closely to what I had in mind. Any spells, templates or tricks to suggest?

PS. Don't worry about the spelldance problem, our archivist/wizard will persist favor of the martyr on me and some restorations so all I need to do is get the perform check so the spell won't fizzle

[Nightraiderx]

considering the original build was duskblade13/warblade7//wizard5/abjurant champion5/ultimate magus1/paragnostic apostle1/spelldancer1/ultimate magus5/paragnostic apostle1/spelldancer1 yes that is very closely to what I had in mind. Any spells, templates or tricks to suggest?

I'm pretty sure there's a construct graft in eberron, wakeful mind that makes you immune to fatigue.
It depends on what fighting style you are using and if you are getting reserves of strength or not.

But a few melee spells I find worth:
Nerveskitter 1st lvl Initiative is important, so it's good to have this one.

Blade Weave 2nd lvl spell in a full attack action this become's pretty nasty on it's own.
Wraithstrike 2nd lvl necromancy a staple for hitting touch attack and getting more out of your power attack.
Heroics is very nice for that bonus feat for martial study/stance.

Other than that I don't have much else to offer in this regard.