Is dragon age really a dark fantasy?

[Zurvan]

It feels more like a high fantasy to me.

[BRC]

The two terms are not really mutually exclusive. Something can be Dark, and still have wizards and dragons and knights in shining armor.

That said, I wouldn't call Dragon Age "Dark Fantasy". Yeah, there's some seriously dark and horrific stuff going on in Thedas, but the focus of the games is generally on standard high-fantasy "Save the world by stabbing the big evil thing" fair. It's mature compared to some high fantasy stuff, with a bigger focus on moral dilemmas, some horrific things (Like the Brood Mothers), and a mixture of mundane and fantastical evil. Ambitious, Paranoid, or Fanatical people who are perfectly sane are just as much an enemy as ancient dark gods or mad sorcerers.
"Dark Fantasy" seems to me to imply a horror aspect suffusing the whole thing. Dark Souls has a good "Dark Fantasy" feel.

Dragon Age is high fantasy with some blood splatter. It's Dark, and its Fantasy, but if we're being stingy with our terms, I wouldn't call it "Dark Fantasy".

[AdmiralCheez]

I've heard many people say that Dragon Age is more of a "Dirty Fantasy" than a dark one. As in, everything is covered in dirt, and grime, and blood. It's still high fantasy at it's core; the setting is just messier.

[Lethologica]

Thedas is a high fantasy setting that is frequently intruded on by beings from dark fantasy, and also contains a dark fantasy setting (the Fade). Make of that what you will.

[Psyren]

Aside from all the Fantastic Racism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasticRacism) permeating the setting it's not particularly dark compared to, say, Forgotten Realms - or anything else, really.

I think Yahtzee said it best:


Dragon Age calls itself a "dark fantasy." It's rather cute, really, like a D&D nerd getting his ear pierced because he fancies the goth girl who works at Starbucks. Dragon Age isn't dark fantasy, nor is it light, gray, avocado, or caffeine-free fantasy - it's just straight fantasy classic. It's a straight-line Tetris block wiping out four big fat rows of demand for traditional single-player RPGs. It's got elves, dwarves, dragons, it's got a title screen depicting a sword sticking out of the ground, and the world map looks like a fire-breathing coffee drink has been sick on it; we're talking a hundred percent commitment here, where every individual element could be taken out of context and every single one could make your girlfriend legitimately call you a sad bastard.

[Inarius]

I don't think Dragon Age is Dark fantasy though it does try to be at times. It's more akin to the epic or heroic types of fantasy to be honest. High fantasy on the other hand just refers to anything that takes place primarily not on earth.

[Lord Raziere]

so....we are basically sorting any and all instances where you can actually save the day into high fantasy, no matter how dark it is now? what next, would you put Warhammer 40,000 into high fantasy if I change it so that you can actually save the day rather than be completely hopeless?

I consider it dark fantasy, its certainly dark compared to the usual faire.

[Torzini]

I think Yahtzee said it best:

Dragon Age calls itself a "dark fantasy." It's rather cute, really, like a D&D nerd getting his ear pierced because he fancies the goth girl who works at Starbucks. Dragon Age isn't dark fantasy, nor is it light, gray, avocado, or caffeine-free fantasy - it's just straight fantasy classic. It's a straight-line Tetris block wiping out four big fat rows of demand for traditional single-player RPGs. It's got elves, dwarves, dragons, it's got a title screen depicting a sword sticking out of the ground, and the world map looks like a fire-breathing coffee drink has been sick on it; we're talking a hundred percent commitment here, where every individual element could be taken out of context and every single one could make your girlfriend legitimately call you a sad bastard.

While much of this looks accurate on the surface, I don't think you're giving the Fantastic Racism(tm) thing quite enough credit. Sure, the races may have stereotypical fantasy names, but Bioware has successfully injected enough "gray" into fleshing them out that it that ends up affecting the entire setting. Just a little rundown from the top of my head...

Dwarves possess a highly punishing caste system where the "casteless" -- the fantasy equivalent of Untouchables/Dalits -- are the lowest of the low, and are not even looked upon as people.

Elves were brutally driven out of their homeland by a series of human religious crusades, enslaved by humans for hundreds of years, and all elves who now live in human cities essentially live in segregated ghettoes (and are treated with fantastic racism to boot). Hell, in one of the possible character origins, you play (spoilered for possible trigger warning):

a female city elf whose wedding is crashed by human lords with the intent of sexually assaulting the wedding party, and your best friend ends up being raped.

There is also the whole mage vs. Templars deal, and in Kirkwall, at the very least, mages live in appalling conditions. It is heavily implied that they routinely suffer physical and sexual abuse there at the hands of the Templars.

Sooo while much of it is standard high fantasy fare, you are... highly mistaken if you think it's all light-hearted dragon killing. There is more than enough grayness/darkness to go around.

I mean really, did you actually play any of the Dragon Age games at all before making that comment? :smallconfused:

[Zaydos]

I've only played Origins, but it's a high fantasy story set in a crapsack world. But dark fantasy is, at least according to what Wiki is telling me and I find this far more accurate than TVtropes which has admittedly improved since it defined it in the same way as Low Fantasy, fantasy with a dash of horror to it. And in Origins... the haunted castle, elven curse, wizard's tower, all show attempts at this. The Deep Roads actually shows a fair bit of success at this. So while the overarching story is not necessarily dark fantasy (save the world kingdom, yay!), the game might qualify.

I can't speak for DA:I or DA:2 at all, though.

[Torzini]

I've only played Origins, but it's a high fantasy story set in a crapsack world. But dark fantasy is, at least according to what Wiki is telling me and I find this far more accurate than TVtropes which has admittedly improved since it defined it in the same way as Low Fantasy, fantasy with a dash of horror to it. And in Origins... the haunted castle, elven curse, wizard's tower, all show attempts at this. The Deep Roads actually shows a fair bit of success at this. So while the overarching story is not necessarily dark fantasy (save the world kingdom, yay!), the game might qualify.

I can't speak for DA:I or DA:2 at all, though.

Ah... yes, I'd forgot about the Deep Roads bit. Definite squick/horror there... One does not simply inquire where broodmothers come from.

But yeah I'd agree with that rough ratio. High fantasy basis, but with large fillings of crapsack/depressing social issues to fill in the gaps. I feel safe saying that someone who thinks DA is completely happy, heroic fantasy is severely missing something -- the gray parts are gray enough to not be easily forgotten about, or else we haven't been playing the same game(s).

Another note on that, Yahtzee is an entertaining game reviewer (one I enjoy watching), but his reviews are parody and should never be quoted as full-on fact if you're trying to be serious.

[Giggling Ghast]

This topic is a recurring one on the Bioware forum, mostly as a lead-in to the other favourite recurring topic of "Why aren't you playing the Witcher?" Dark fantasy is defined by Wikipedia as fantasy with horror elements, which Dragon Age definitely has in spades. Its creatures are generally designed to be visually disturbing and often fall into the "Was Once a Man" category. While it does has fantastical elements, they're generally presented in an an unappealing light: magic is powerful but opens you to possession; dragons roam the land but are stupid, savage beasts; elves were once immortal but are second-class citizens and their civilization fell into ruin because they were jerks.

Of course, there's a school of thought that states that anything less than Berserk has no right to call itself "dark fantasy." If that's your barometer, well, I can't really argue.

[Lord Raziere]

well in Dragon Age 2 (spoilers):
you start out a refugee who through either smuggling or mercenary work gets by through the city until you go on an expedition to become rich again. the expedition however unleashes a dark magical artifact that eventually starts a world-wide ideological war between the Templars and Mages by making sure no compromise can be reached between them in Kirkwall, no matter what you choose both sides eventually show themselves to be evil or at least have evil people within them and the end is basically everything descending into a Mage-Templar war with Hawke going into hiding, everything now being worse. and most of the game is dealing with local city problems, the cute elven mage wants to dabble in demonic rites, the cute elven warrior agrees with the Templars wholeheartedly because Tevinter made him a slave, while the one Qunari mage we see is against the Qun in general and actually fight for Tevinter because he claims "at least only SOME people are slaves in Tevinter, rather than all." oh and you have to make the decision of whether or not to kill a mentally ill person because he claimed he was possessed by demons but actually wasn't, with no one being sympathetic to him.

in Dragon Age Inquisition:
your basically forced to join a newly formed religious organization, everyone thinks your some Herald of Andraste, and basically have to deal with the politics all around you which includes the still raging Mage-Templar war, the real foe isn't clear, the orthodox Church in Val Royeaux basically sees you as untrustworthy heretics or something, and beyond that I'm getting into spoilers and I haven't played the whole thing but your less "adventuring heroes who go around looting shinies" and more "investigating Inquisitors gathering resources to build an organization to restore peace to everything in general" there are actual mechanics for the amount of political influence and resources you have, and a lot of the game is going on quests to build up the infrastructure you need to make the Inquisition thing work, also it delves into matters of faith, leadership, belief and so on.

and guess what? the Templars by the time of Inquisition are going rogue from the Church themselves and are basically devolving into an army of religious thugs with anti-mage powers trying to kill every mage they see while abusing their power over common villagers like any army on the march, just as bad as all the abominations and blood mages.

so yeah. dark to me.

[Psyren]

While much of this looks accurate on the surface, I don't think you're giving the Fantastic Racism(tm) thing quite enough credit. Sure, the races may have stereotypical fantasy names, but Bioware has successfully injected enough "gray" into fleshing them out that it that ends up affecting the entire setting.

Methinks you're taking the quote from the comedy review far too seriously.

Also, by Fantastic Racism, we actually agree - Dragon Age has far more of it, and more overtly, than most settings. In D&D you might, say, see some elves turn up their noses at the lowly human who wants to visit Evermeet. In Dragon Age - well you listed some of the worst ones like the City Elf Origin and the Orzammar caste system, and the horrible abuses inflicted on the mages by their templar guardians, not to mention the slow and quiet oppression of the Qun.



I mean really, did you actually play any of the Dragon Age games at all before making that comment? :smallconfused:

*guffaws*

Oh wait, were you being serious? Yes... yes I've played all the games. :smallbiggrin:

4th iteration of Dragon Age Inquisition thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385363-Dragon-Age-Inquisition-IV-Deal-With-It)

[ti'esar]

I dunno, maybe I'm just not easily horrified, but I'm inclined to agree with this person:


The two terms are not really mutually exclusive. Something can be Dark, and still have wizards and dragons and knights in shining armor.

That said, I wouldn't call Dragon Age "Dark Fantasy". Yeah, there's some seriously dark and horrific stuff going on in Thedas, but the focus of the games is generally on standard high-fantasy "Save the world by stabbing the big evil thing" fair. It's mature compared to some high fantasy stuff, with a bigger focus on moral dilemmas, some horrific things (Like the Brood Mothers), and a mixture of mundane and fantastical evil. Ambitious, Paranoid, or Fanatical people who are perfectly sane are just as much an enemy as ancient dark gods or mad sorcerers.
"Dark Fantasy" seems to me to imply a horror aspect suffusing the whole thing. Dark Souls has a good "Dark Fantasy" feel.

Dragon Age is high fantasy with some blood splatter. It's Dark, and its Fantasy, but if we're being stingy with our terms, I wouldn't call it "Dark Fantasy".

While the terms are kind of loosely defined, I personally view "dark fantasy" as being a fundamental fusion of the fantasy and horror genres, which the Dragon Age series is not. It certainly has had some individual horrific things, but the broad tropes are almost all high fantasy in nature. (For a comparison, is Pathfinder's default setting of Golarion - which has had quite a few individual cases of delving into horror in some of its regions and adventures - dark fantasy?) And certainly there's plenty of morally ambiguous or downright cynical elements to it, but then high fantasy dealing exclusively in black-and-white Good and Evil isn't the case as often as it's made out to be. Plus, it's still largely possible to play an idealistic character who generally improves the world to at least some degree - even in DAII, where your character is often doomed to failure at major story points - so I wouldn't even say it's that pessimistic.

Note that none of this is a criticism; as someone who's not strongly into horror, I probably wouldn't really enjoy the series if it was dark fantasy.

[Rodin]

Note that none of this is a criticism; as someone who's not strongly into horror, I probably wouldn't really enjoy the series if it was dark fantasy.

Indeed.

I've read some dark fantasy. I didn't enjoy it. When the main character has a wife who exists solely to be tortured to death and mailed to him in a box, I find it hard to care about the rest of the story. Dragon Age isn't particularly dark compared to some of the stuff I've read (mostly stuff from the library so I've forgotten the names of it, sadly), and I'd go further to say that Game of Thrones isn't particularly dark either. Darker than some traditional high fantasy, sure, but not really the sort of horror fantasy that dark fantasy implies.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Dragon Age didn't feel as dark as the Witcher, but that may be an art design thing rather than a story/theme issue.

There is such a thing as heroic horror (Dracula would be a good example, maybe August Derleth's Cthulu Mythos as well) so I don't thing Dragon Age being heroic stops it being dark. Horror actually tends to be pretty black and white morality wise so the supposed shades of grey in Dragon Age is a strike against it being horror fantasy.

Dragon Age just didn't feel darker than the average fantasy Bioware RPG, which never claimed to be dark fantasy. All Bioware RPGs had beggars on the streets, Dwarven untouchables and Elven minorities are just more fleshed out versions of that. Racism isn't novel in a genre where sentient beings its best to kill on sight are commonplace, even if Sahugin don't actually hate you and only care about you as food. The plague in NWN is grimmer than the cartoonishly over the top Deep Roads and Bioware's 3d art direction is still too far behind their isometric art direction to make anything in Dragon Age as atmospheric as Baldur's Gate.

[Giggling Ghast]

Dragon Age just didn't feel darker than the average fantasy Bioware RPG, which never claimed to be dark fantasy. All Bioware RPGs had beggars on the streets, Dwarven untouchables and Elven minorities are just more fleshed out versions of that. Racism isn't novel in a genre where sentient beings its best to kill on sight are commonplace, even if Sahugin don't actually hate you and only care about you as food. The plague in NWN is grimmer than the cartoonishly over the top Deep Roads and Bioware's 3d art direction is still too far behind their isometric art direction to make anything in Dragon Age as atmospheric as Baldur's Gate.

Point of contention: Dragon Age IS the average fantasy Bioware RPG at this point. There are three games and counting.

[Calemyr]

My take is that Dragon Age is kinda two-sided on the whole "Dark Fantasy". It is capable of some real powerful and dark stuff, like the racism and the more horrific aspects of the taint, but there are also a lot of places where it simply tries to hard and ends up looking silly in its attempt to look dark. For every moment where we see truly disturbing revelations, like the truth of the Wardens or the true purpose of the Kirkwall serial killer, we also get things like happy, playful conversations by people simply drenched in blood (even on their teeth!) and ridiculous 4-on-100 curbstomp power fantasies.

It's pretty clear that some of the folks behind the franchise really know how to craft a dark fantasy, but it's also quite clear that some of the folks managing the franchise have no clue what-so-ever. The end result is pretty inconsistent, with a core that properly uses dark themes and a surface that often mishandles the concept to the point of unintentional satire.

[Psyren]

Point of contention: Dragon Age IS the average fantasy Bioware RPG at this point. There are three games and counting.

Not to mention all the spinoffs. But more importantly, it's also original IP, unlike all their D&D and Star Wars outings.

[Cristo Meyers]

It's pretty clear that some of the folks behind the franchise really know how to craft a dark fantasy, but it's also quite clear that some of the folks managing the franchise have no clue what-so-ever. The end result is pretty inconsistent, with a core that properly uses dark themes and a surface that often mishandles the concept to the point of unintentional satire.

I've often wondered if maybe there's a Marvel Civil War-style schism in the writing staff behind Dragon Age because of this very thing. Just the way some of the events play out make me wonder whether what we're playing is actually what was intended by some of the writers.

[Tengu_temp]

I agree with BRC - Dragon Age is both dark fantasy and high fantasy. These two terms aren't mutually exclusive - or well-defined, for the matter.

I disagree with wikipedia's definition of dark fantasy requiring horror elements. If that was true, then almost nothing is dark fantasy, even Dark Souls - because horror elements mean that something is scary, and DS is rarely scary, usually it's melancholic. For me, the main defining factor of dark fantasy is grittiness, and unpleasantness of the setting - dark fantasy doesn't try to gloss over the nasty parts of its world. And DA has that in droves.

[Inarius]

Honestly you can have heroic dark high fantasy as a descriptor. Its a bit of a mouthful but all three of those refer to different parts of the fantasy genre. High/Low fantasy simple refers to the setting. Specifically if it primarily takes place on earth or not. Dark fantasy refers to fatnasy with horror elements though its sort of been expanded to include other mature themes. And of course heroic fantasy refers to the more traditional hero's journey. Dragon age fits the bill for all 3 of those at different parts. Overall I'd say it deals more with heroic themes, but it does have some dark stuff thrown in and some of the darker aspects are done quite well.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Point of contention: Dragon Age IS the average fantasy Bioware RPG at this point. There are three games and counting.

Its only the mode.



I disagree with wikipedia's definition of dark fantasy requiring horror elements. If that was true, then almost nothing is dark fantasy, even Dark Souls - because horror elements mean that something is scary, and DS is rarely scary, usually it's melancholic.

The definition of horror is pretty confusing. At times Horror has been more defined by supernatural elements than scariness, which would make all Fantasy a subgenre of horror, which makes some historical sense since Gothic Horror was the first modern attempt to create a pseudo-medieval setting in fiction but would have no practical value at all.

Horror monsters pop up all the time in fantasy, making 'fantasy with horror elements' basically meaningless. The horror genre is too diverse for any work to easily avoid having horror elements. Lord of the Rings turns into a Ghost story at several points.

When people say Dark Fantasy they're usually talking about mood, which is going to be subjective.

[t209]

Well, at least you can do things for the better in Dragon Age...to some extent.
- The Dwarf Caste System, which is kinda stupid in my opinion since they didn't seem to know about conscription instead of letting the outcast rot, can be ended by propping up a benevolent despot to the throne.

[Avilan the Grey]

Depends on your definition of Dark Fantasy.
It is not Medieval Call Of Cthulhu. Nor is it Warhammer Fantasy.

It is not Grimdark. It is Dark. There's a difference.
Also, as is pointed out, there is no contradiction between dark themes and High Fantasy.

All three games are dark themed. The Second game is the only of the three that is truly Dark, however, since it is impossible to "come out on top" and it was made that way on purpose, the developers felt Origins was not Dark enough, and went very much further to ensure that the game would, indeed, be Dark.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

I only played the first Dragon Age, so I can't comment on the other two, but calling it capital D Dark fantasy is really hyperbolic to me. It's definitely not an ideal world, but it's no more grim than say, your average DND campaign set on Toril. It's not like Warhammer where the world is definitely about to end so everybody's just getting into the spirit of things with one last great mosh pit before the show's over, or even The Witcher where the human spirit of romance gets beaten down again and again in the face of horror. Good people not only exist, but good has a real chance to triumph in the end. Wounds can get time to heal, archdemons can be killed and regret can change the hearts of men. People just have to work for it.

[GloatingSwine]

Depends on your definition of Dark Fantasy.


According to my local bookshops, "dark fantasy" is basically the young adult vampire romance genre, or at least that's what inhabits the shelf called dark fantasy.

I'm pretty sure Dragon Age isn't that.

It's generic modern western fantasy in thrall to A Song of Ice and Fire and Wheel of Time and sort of The Witcher, really.

[Tengu_temp]

According to my local bookshops, "dark fantasy" is basically the young adult vampire romance genre, or at least that's what inhabits the shelf called dark fantasy.

I'm pretty sure Dragon Age isn't that.

How can you look at the love interests available to you in DA - or any Bioware game, for the matter - and say it's not like a YA novel?

[Gaelbert]

It seems that a lot of disagreement here comes from a different interpretation of the definition, so I'm not sure how incredibly useful this conversation will be. I've also only played about 2/3 of DA:O so instead I'll use a parallel example of Tolkien. Middle Earth is pretty much considered the grandfather of high fantasy, and rightly so. That being said, it's definitely permeated with darker elements. The scenes with the Watcher, all of Moria, the origin of the orcs, the story of Turin, the fall of the Elves in the First (? I don't actually remember which age) Age, all these things are pretty dark materials. The Deep Roads are Moria, but I don't see that making Middle Earth a solid candidate for Dark Fantasy. Maybe dark fantasy in some cases, but tonally it reads very different. DA:O, for what little I've played, seems to playing on the same line. Artistically, it's just too bright for me to see it as anything other than your traditional high fantasy with a couple of darker elements tossed in.

[The_Jackal]

It seems that a lot of disagreement here comes from a different interpretation of the definition.

There's nothing TO this discussion except opinion and arbitrary value judgements. What one person thinks is dark, another person might think is fairly trite and bland. IMO, the only difference between dark and 'normal' fantasy is how long the camera dwells on the consequences of violence. Any fantasy genre is going to have one dude ramming a sharpened crowbar into another's guts. Heck, even Beauty and the Beast ends with Gaston being throw from a balcony, landing in a pile of ground meat and testosterone.

So, by that measure, sure, Dragon Age is dark, to the point of absurdity. When you've got perfectly calm conversations between two people splattered with gore, you've gone beyond dark, straight into surreal.

[Avilan the Grey]

How can you look at the love interests available to you in DA - or any Bioware game, for the matter - and say it's not like a YA novel?

Here, haz and Internet.

[Aotrs Commander]

I've heard many people say that Dragon Age is more of a "Dirty Fantasy" than a dark one. As in, everything is covered in dirt, and grime, and blood. It's still high fantasy at it's core; the setting is just messier.


So, by that measure, sure, Dragon Age is dark, to the point of absurdity. When you've got perfectly calm conversations between two people splattered with gore, you've gone beyond dark, straight into surreal.

New classification clearly required here: DA is thus GRIMEdark.

I am a terrible person. But we all knew that already.

[The_Jackal]

New classification clearly required here: DA is thus GRIMEdark.

I am a terrible person. But we all knew that already.

Well played, sir. Well played.