Wind Wall Houserules/balance

[Alent]

What are some common houserules that people apply to the Windwall spell, in 3.5 and PF both?

I'm mainly curious to see where people see or don't see balance issues, such as archery, what kinds of breath weapons it does and does not affect, etc.

[Zarrgon]

I use this Houserule Fix:

An invisible vertical curtain of wind appears. It is 2 feet thick and of considerable strength. The wall itself has a Wind Force one higher than the average for the area, improving by an additional grade for every 4 caster levels you have. Any ranged attacks that would pass through the squares encompassed by a Wind Wall have a penalty to their attack rolls as if they were originally made in an area that had wind of the same force as that of the Wind Wall. If this would be sufficient to make it impossible to make a ranged attack of that type, the attack automatically fails.

So, using the wind grades in the DMG, the wind wall does not stop arrows 100% of the time until 12th level.

If you want it to be more simple, you could just say ''ranged attacks are at -4'' .

[ericgrau]

It's a horrible spell. It doesn't make archery obsolete any more than protection from evil makes dominate monster obsolete, or any more than undead/blindfolds of true darkness make glitterdust obsolete, or any more than antimagic fields make wizards obsolete or etc. If it was an immediate action or 24 hours and it tightly encircled and moved with the caster it might be pretty good. As it is it's close to garbage.

I think it comes up in "wizards have an answer to everything" threads just so people can say there's an answer to arrows. But it's not a good answer at all. Abrupt jaunt or something else maybe, but not wind wall.

The are a lot of overly narrow spells like wind wall that could be buffed a bit so that they can see actual use. How many stories have you heard about "Ya I'm tired of my many archer encounters getting totally shut down with wind wall"? Or stories about the spell being even mildly useful in some campaign? It's hard to even find a build with a spell list that has it.

[Alent]

It's a horrible spell. It doesn't make archery obsolete any more than protection from evil makes dominate monster obsolete, or any more than undead/blindfolds of true darkness make glitterdust obsolete, or any more than antimagic fields make wizards obsolete or etc. If it was an immediate action or 24 hours and it tightly encircled and moved with the caster it might be pretty good. As it is it's close to garbage.

I think it comes up in "wizards have an answer to everything" threads just so people can say there's an answer to arrows. But it's not a good answer at all. Abrupt jaunt or something else maybe, but not wind wall.

The are a lot of overly narrow spells like wind wall that could be buffed a bit so that they can see actual use. How many stories have you heard about "Ya I'm tired of my many archer encounters getting totally shut down with wind wall"? Or stories about the spell being even mildly useful in some campaign? It's hard to even find a build with a spell list that has it.

This is why I'm asking the question. One part of me says "This is complete and total horse****." The other part of me says "Well, it's not like I was shooting arrows through wall of stone, either."

So I'm just curious to see what different tables have to say about it.

[ericgrau]

I see. The subject hasn't come up in my groups. No one ever takes the spell either. It was cast against us one time in all my history of gaming in a dungeon. The archer walked through it and proceeded with the encounter normally because it wasn't a big deal while meanwhile it bought us a round against the enemy.

I tried google searching the www.giantitp.com forums and all the hits were theoretical. I'm not sure anybody actually uses it. Or maybe they put it on their spell list but it never comes up. I think it may be purely for "Archer loses 'cuz windwall" forum discussions and "I'm an archer how do I overcome windwall" forum discussions. It seems like no one ever prepares it and no archer is ever hampered by it whether a DM uses it or not.

[Propagandalf]

I use this Houserule Fix:

An invisible vertical curtain of wind appears. It is 2 feet thick and of considerable strength. The wall itself has a Wind Force one higher than the average for the area, improving by an additional grade for every 4 caster levels you have. Any ranged attacks that would pass through the squares encompassed by a Wind Wall have a penalty to their attack rolls as if they were originally made in an area that had wind of the same force as that of the Wind Wall. If this would be sufficient to make it impossible to make a ranged attack of that type, the attack automatically fails.

So, using the wind grades in the DMG, the wind wall does not stop arrows 100% of the time until 12th level.

If you want it to be more simple, you could just say ''ranged attacks are at -4'' .

I like this fix. :smallsmile:
Althought the need for a fix depends heavily with the type of campaign and the amount of ranged characters.

That said, when the spell is relevant, it is very very good. I've destroyed one or two encounters with it (althought we were lvl11+ at that point so...) by summoning 2-3 Bralani Azatas and having them use their at will Wind Wall. Those 10-15 archers hiding behind the walls were pretty much powerless. We just walked through.:smallsmile:

[Lathund]

I played against monsters with Wind Wall recently. It mattered.

The scenario: a huge evil cult tried to attack an ancient underwater city in some doomsday plot. Aware of the plans, we and an army of NPCs had built defenses within the city. Enemies would need to come through a certain corridor and we had set up stockades with NPC archers on top of them. The corridor led through a wall in the north and the stockades were in the east, south and west, leaving a 60 ft square battle area. PCs were waiting on or behind the stockade, except for our Dragon Fire Adept (DFA) who flew above it. The corridor itself was filled with Solid Fog.

Before the enemies arrive, the DFA is able to breathe down the Solid Fog, pre-heating the enemies. First wave of enemies breaks through and dies rapidly. Second round, a second wave of enemies breaks through the Solid Fog, including two casters. Two Wind Walls are cast. As it turns out, one of them is placed right in front of the stockade and the other right outside the Solid Fog. So the NPC archers are useless (and they're not going to risk their lifes going into the battle area) and the Dragon Shaman is quite limited in his breath attacks: he can't simply toast whoever is in the Solid Fog anymore, nor can he go too far back. The DFA does continue to make breath attack from above and gets targetted heavily by the enemies.
Meanwhile, the rest of the party is held up behind the stockade because enemy DM-PCs keep teleporting there. The archers start targetting them instead, but as DM-PCs, they have far higher AC and the archers are just mooks.

Wind Wall, in this scenario, was neither useless nor game-breaking. It limited our damage output, but everyone affected still had backup options.

[Crake]

I played against monsters with Wind Wall recently. It mattered.

The scenario: a huge evil cult tried to attack an ancient underwater city in some doomsday plot. Aware of the plans, we and an army of NPCs had built defenses within the city. Enemies would need to come through a certain corridor and we had set up stockades with NPC archers on top of them. The corridor led through a wall in the north and the stockades were in the east, south and west, leaving a 60 ft square battle area. PCs were waiting on or behind the stockade, except for our Dragon Fire Adept (DFA) who flew above it. The corridor itself was filled with Solid Fog.

Before the enemies arrive, the DFA is able to breathe down the Solid Fog, pre-heating the enemies. First wave of enemies breaks through and dies rapidly. Second round, a second wave of enemies breaks through the Solid Fog, including two casters. Two Wind Walls are cast. As it turns out, one of them is placed right in front of the stockade and the other right outside the Solid Fog. So the NPC archers are useless (and they're not going to risk their lifes going into the battle area) and the Dragon Shaman is quite limited in his breath attacks: he can't simply toast whoever is in the Solid Fog anymore, nor can he go too far back. The DFA does continue to make breath attack from above and gets targetted heavily by the enemies.
Meanwhile, the rest of the party is held up behind the stockade because enemy DM-PCs keep teleporting there. The archers start targetting them instead, but as DM-PCs, they have far higher AC and the archers are just mooks.

Wind Wall, in this scenario, was neither useless nor game-breaking. It limited our damage output, but everyone affected still had backup options.

Did the DFA have a gaseous breath weapon? Because if not, it wouldn't have been blocked by the wind wall. I've seen many people misread the spell as "most breath weapons" and not "most gaseous breath weapons"

[Lathund]

Did the DFA have a gaseous breath weapon? Because if not, it wouldn't have been blocked by the wind wall. I've seen many people misread the spell as "most breath weapons" and not "most gaseous breath weapons"

He breathed fire. I'd interpret that as gaseous, but you could make the case that it's not. Are there any rules to seperate the gaseous from the non-gaseous ones?

[Killer Angel]

Best case: under peculiar circumstances, yes, WW can be marginally useful. Keep a scroll of it, nothing more.

Casters are overpowered, but it's not thanks to wind wall.

[Curmudgeon]

Wind Wall has a couple of vulnerabilities, without any house rules:

The spell has no roof, so if you can fly above it you can fire your arrows without hindrance.
As long as you're not Tiny or Small and also flying, you can just walk through the spell effect and shoot from the other side.

[nyjastul69]

He breathed fire. I'd interpret that as gaseous, but you could make the case that it's not. Are there any rules to seperate the gaseous from the non-gaseous ones?

The dragon's breath weapon description will indicate whether it's gaseous or not. Green, Bronze, Copper, Silver and Gold dragons all have a gaseous breath weapon.


Originally posted by the SRD:
A green dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of corrosive (acid) gas.

[Toilet Cobra]

If your party is throwing a lot of arrows at your BBEG, have him cast Fickle Winds (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/fickleWinds.html) instead of Wind Wall. Other than the duration, it addresses a lot of issues mentioned in this thread, but then it is two levels higher.

I actually didn't know this spell existed until someone on these forums posted it in a similar thread, and I put it into my game almost immediately. It was exactly what I had wanted from Wind Wall.

[eggynack]

As long as you're not Tiny or Small and also flying, you can just walk through the spell effect and shoot from the other side.

Not really. The spell creates a cylinder, or is capable of creating one at least, which means that any given opponent has to be in some position directly above or below you to get a hit in. Not a perfect defense, certainly, but it's a pretty good one, and it works great if you're at a distance from the opponent.

[Curmudgeon]

Not really. The spell creates a cylinder, or is capable of creating one at least, which means that any given opponent has to be in some position directly above or below you to get a hit in.
I think you might have missed this characteristic of the spell:
An invisible vertical curtain of wind appears. It is 2 feet thick and of considerable strength. So yes, you can shape it into a cylinder, but the walls of that cylinder are only 2' thick. Most anyone can simply walk through those 2' walls of air.

[eggynack]

I think you might have missed this characteristic of the spell: So yes, you can shape it into a cylinder, but the walls of that cylinder are only 2' thick. Most anyone can simply walk through those 2' walls of air.
Of course folks can walk through the spell. The issue is, after they've walked through it to the other side, there's still a wall of wind between them and the target. Shooting from the other side, which is the method you noted, would thus be ineffective, while going into the middle of the cylinder could potentially work. It would be a more limited range of shooting positions, however.

[Curmudgeon]

Of course folks can walk through the spell. The issue is, after they've walked through it to the other side, there's still a wall of wind between them and the target. Shooting from the other side, which is the method you noted, would thus be ineffective, while going into the middle of the cylinder could potentially work. It would be a more limited range of shooting positions, however.
I'm not sure what geometry you're referring to; if the archer started outside the Wind Wall cylinder, "the other side" would necessarily be the inside. I was assuming the spellcaster positioned inside the cylinder, so an archer need only walk through any part of the wall to be on the inside as well, with no wind between them and the caster.

[Zaq]

As long as you're not Tiny or Small and also flying, you can just walk through the spell effect and shoot from the other side.

True, but that means that you forced the archer to 1) get in close to the party, presumably near the melee troops, and 2) not make a full attack, which archers tend to rely on heavily. It's not accurate to say that the Wind Wall is an automatic win for the Wizard, but it still had a definite effect on the course of the battle, and the archer would have been happier if the Wind Wall hadn't been cast.

Of course, this assumes something about the range the archer is operating from. If the archer is operating from far enough away that they can't get close enough to pass the Wind Wall, then it actually DID shut them down, at least for a couple rounds. And really, that's a win.

[Alent]

He breathed fire. I'd interpret that as gaseous, but you could make the case that it's not. Are there any rules to seperate the gaseous from the non-gaseous ones?


The dragon's breath weapon description will indicate whether it's gaseous or not. Green, Bronze, Copper, Silver and Gold dragons all have a gaseous breath weapon.

Things like this are also what I was interested in, as much if not more so than archery. There's specific things that say "this is a gas", but there's no general rules, and it seems like some of them are up to interpretation like cone of fire/cone of cold. (Depending on how many catgirls you want to kill by trying to use science, anyway.)


If your party is throwing a lot of arrows at your BBEG, have him cast Fickle Winds (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/fickleWinds.html) instead of Wind Wall. Other than the duration, it addresses a lot of issues mentioned in this thread, but then it is two levels higher.

I actually didn't know this spell existed until someone on these forums posted it in a similar thread, and I put it into my game almost immediately. It was exactly what I had wanted from Wind Wall.

This isn't actually for a BBEG as much as it is general purpose to a setting where magical defenses around cities and vehicles are used to logical ends. In context, the way I'm using them actually would make use of PF's "To make this move with a ship, it must be anchored to the ship" FAQ answer, cutting the need for the 5th level spell for all but outgoing fire.

I'm just trying to explore what those magical defenses should do before I start allocating them by nation and developing alchemical weaponry against them, and I simply wasn't sure what to make of wind wall in terms of balance, and wanted to see opinions on it in a vacuum.

The thing I'm finding interesting here is Wind wall's odd existence as a wall spell- that being the ability to just walk or see through it. That makes both usage and perception different from the other wall spells. Has anyone back ported the damage for passing through a wind wall from 5e?

[nyjastul69]

Things like this are also what I was interested in, as much if not more so than archery. There's specific things that say "this is a gas", but there's no general rules, and it seems like some of them are up to interpretation like cone of fire/cone of cold. (Depending on how many catgirls you want to kill by trying to use science, anyway.)...

There really isn't any room for interpretation as far a dragon's breath weapon is concerned. Fire and ice are not stated to be gases, therefore they are not. Science is irrelevant in this regard.

[nedz]

It's a level 2 spell so you shouldn't expect too much. OK, there are a few powerful level 2 spells — not many I know — but maybe those are the ones which need house rules ? It does have uses but it's very situational and so hardly worth taking, also spell slots are quite sparse at low levels.