Question about party balance

[Jakewintergreen]

So, I am in the process of setting up a game with myself as the DM and 5 players. From experience, I have found that getting involved with the players as they create characters seems like a pretty good way of managing expectations before the game even begins. Overall, I prefer to give players a good amount of freedom in what they play, with the caveat that I kindly ask that they not break the game (ie things like repeatedly binding Wish-granting outsiders and the like).

Despite this permissive atmosphere, one thing I do want to try and keep in mind is the balance of power -between- the party members. Currently I have two martial adepts (a Swordsage and a Crusader), two Clerics (that are not planning on being highly optimized) and a Conjuration specialist Wizard. The Wizard's character plans are what brings me to the forum seeking advice.

They are looking to take Malconvoker and round it off with a bit of Master Specialist, along with all three of the Conjuror Variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants) from UA. Personally, I do not have any experience with Malconvoker, and I am unsure if this build would create a bit too much of a power gap or not.

According to other sites, Malconvoker is considered a +1 PrC, but I have not seen a lot of discussion of its power. At least on paper the 5th level ability of getting an extra creature when summoning evil outsiders seems quite solid. And generally I am wondering if I should be a bit more restrictive on the PrC's that the party Clerics and Wizard take.

So, what do you guys think? Is Malconvoker a class that is likely fine, might need a bit of power adjustment, or something that I should talk to the player about and ask if they have considered other options? I do not think the player has any intention of breaking the game, but as much as possible I want to make sure every character feels that they can be effect. Of course this means I should keep an eye on the Clerics as well, but handling them will be a bit easier methinks.


Also, thanks in advance for the help!

[Aegis013]

Power disparity with this group isn't going to be too terrible, even with the Wizard playing a Malconvoker.

The potential problems with Malconvoker is if his summons get to be numerous and strong enough to cause the martial adepts to be unnecessary (which will be awhile, but if used at their peak could happen in mid-late levels), and cause toe-stepping-on role wise.

The biggest concern, however, is the concern with any minionmancy or summoner character. Creatures called forth bogging down the game due to suddenly so many more actions to handle, having to find statblocks, having to add templates to statblocks in some cases.

As long as the Malconvoker player isn't out to outshine the other party members and has a good grasp of what he's doing and prepares his summon statblocks and thinks his actions up before his turn, you'll probably see no problem. After all, it won't be much different than regular Conjurer focused on summoning spells.

[Jakewintergreen]

I was thinking that a reasonable requirement for the player would be to have stat blocks ready to go for anything that they decided to summon to make it a little less likely to bog down the game. Stepping on melee toes is/was the main concern, but I am thinking that one of the ways I can combat that is by giving the martial adepts a bit more item love if needed.

[Firest Kathon]

A drawback of the Malconvoker, or any minion-wielder, is the time their turns take up. A friend played a Malconvoker in our group, and in the beginning he took basically up 50% of the combat time just to handle all of his summons, so the rest of us was sitting around waiting for our turn. Even if prepared, they will take some time just to make the necessary rolls etc. So after a few sessions we talked about it, and he agreed to keep his summons to just one or two per combat. So I suggest you ask your player to also keep it down in regards to sheer numbers.

[HammeredWharf]

As noted, Malconvoker is mostly problematic because it slows the game down. Martial adepts should be able to outclass the summons fairly easily, especially if they get buffed by the clerics. I'd advise not to use too many enemies with fire resistance, because that really screws some swordsages up.

[atemu1234]

As noted, Malconvoker is mostly problematic because it slows the game down. Martial adepts should be able to outclass the summons fairly easily, especially if they get buffed by the clerics. I'd advise not to use too many enemies with fire resistance, because that really screws some swordsages up.

Also, don't let the player mass-summon if you value your SAN score.

[HammeredWharf]

Also, don't let the player mass-summon if you value your SAN score.

Indeed. To be more specific, I'd tell them to be prepared to pick the "one tough monster" option instead of the "d3 weaker monsters" one.

[Jakewintergreen]

First of all, I want to say thank you for the advice! I like to think I am a reasonably ok DM, but I very much respect and value peer review of ideas :)

It sounds like there should hopefully be not too many problems with the character as-is, although I wanted to touch on one point that I am hearing. With regards to the multi-summoning possibly being a bit much as far as time in combat goes, should I be considering limiting how many castings of Summon Monster XYZ the caster can have "active" at a time (especially after level 5 of Malconvoker essentially doubles the number of summons per spell)?

[Flickerdart]

should I be considering limiting how many castings of Summon Monster XYZ the caster can have "active" at a time (especially after level 5 of Malconvoker essentially doubles the number of summons per spell)?
I wouldn't put a hard cap on it - there are situations where "six crocodiles appear" is a necessary option. Just making sure the player understands that everyone else only has one character and he should keep his turns short so they get to play. He'll limit himself as much as necessary.

[Komatik]

Best thing for summoner characters is to demand that anything summoned (or transformed into) for combat has to have its papers ready beforehand.

[(Un)Inspired]

First of all, I want to say thank you for the advice! I like to think I am a reasonably ok DM, but I very much respect and value peer review of ideas :)

It sounds like there should hopefully be not too many problems with the character as-is, although I wanted to touch on one point that I am hearing. With regards to the multi-summoning possibly being a bit much as far as time in combat goes, should I be considering limiting how many castings of Summon Monster XYZ the caster can have "active" at a time (especially after level 5 of Malconvoker essentially doubles the number of summons per spell)?

I would warn him that summoners can really big down combat. You want to avoid that so if it looks like his turns are taking 3-4 times as long as everyone else's you're gonna institute a 60 second rule for turns.

That is to say, when someone's turn comes up they have 60 seconds to describe what they're doing and make any necessary rolls. Any actions they can't take in that time are lost.

[Nibbens]

A drawback of the Malconvoker, or any minion-wielder, is the time their turns take up. A friend played a Malconvoker in our group, and in the beginning he took basically up 50% of the combat time just to handle all of his summons, so the rest of us was sitting around waiting for our turn. Even if prepared, they will take some time just to make the necessary rolls etc. So after a few sessions we talked about it, and he agreed to keep his summons to just one or two per combat. So I suggest you ask your player to also keep it down in regards to sheer numbers.

I have this issue now. For a 3 man group, they have the fighting power (and action economy) of a 5-8 man party at any given moment depending on which cats they pull out their bags. From a DMs side it's extremely hard to plan encounters for this - not knowing how much power they're going to have when the come to face a bigger than normal baddie.

From the players side, you can wind up with some very unhappy players who become overshadowed by one or two other players in the group who wind up with massive action economy and firepower, while the others have none.

So I think this is a group issue, and should be handled like one - get all the players to comment on the situation that has been created and lower the hammer as a DM in the way that benefits the majority of people at your table.