Wizard/Necromancer BAB?

[Sr.Crowley]

Hello, everybody! I'm working on a epic level character - a wizard (level 10)/necromancer (algo level 10) that fights with a quarterstaff.

The thing is that I can't figure out the numbers for the BAB. This is my first character with such a high level, so I'm somewhat lost in that matter. Which would be his attack values, if both his STR and DEX modifiers are of +2?

Thanks in advance!

[Karl Aegis]

Your BAB would be +10. However, you can't multiclass between generalist wizard and specialist wizard.

[M Placeholder]

Right off the bat, Im just going to assume that you want to create an army of undead abominations. So I would recommend looking at either Libris Mortis or Book of Vile Darkness for a Prestige class for those ends.

The True Necromancer prestige class is what I would recommend. Take the sufficient levels in both Cleric and Wizard/sorcerer, then take that class.

[A_S]

Right off the bat, Im just going to assume that you want to create an army of undead abominations. So I would recommend looking at either Libris Mortis or Book of Vile Darkness for a Prestige class for those ends.

The True Necromancer prestige class is what I would recommend. Take the sufficient levels in both Cleric and Wizard/sorcerer, then take that class.
It's a trap!

True Necromancer is notorious for losing so many caster levels that it makes any character who takes it terrible at everything, including Necromancy. I strongly suggest sticking with either straight Wizard or straight Cleric instead.

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As for the OP: I think you might have some misconceptions about the various kinds of attack bonuses that exist in D&D.

A character's base attack bonus ("BAB") comes only from their class levels; the amount given by each class at a given level is given in the table in the class description (like the one at the top of this page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm). To calculate your character's BAB, you just add up the BAB numbers given by all your classes. In your case, assuming that by "necromancer," you mean a wizard specializing in necromancy, the total at level 20 would be a BAB of 10, like Karl Aegis said. However, as he mentioned, you also can't multiclass between two different varieties of Wizard.

Your mention of Str and Dex values suggests that you might have gotten BAB mixed up with a character's attack bonus, the bonus they have on a specific attack. Many factors influence this number: To start off, you take your BAB and add your Str bonus (or Dex bonus for ranged attacks), but there are lots of other things that can also affect your attack bonus, like enchanted weapons, flanking, racial bonuses, etc.

I suggest giving the sections in the Player's Handbook on combat and multiclassing another read-through...it is, as they say, all right there in the manual.

[Sr.Crowley]

Right off the bat, Im just going to assume that you want to create an army of undead abominations.

That's EXACTLY what the character is doing.

And just to be clear, I of course know it is not a good build by any means, but I used is for the RP value, more than anything. Also, and I may be confusing classes, I'm using this Necromancer class: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Necromancer_%283.5e_Class%29

So, the thing is, I know that the BAB (not counting the STR and DEX modifiers) is 10, but what I mean is that I'm not sure how to calculate the second (and third, since he's using a +5 weapon) attack.

Blame the fact that I'm awful with numbers.

[Urpriest]

That's EXACTLY what the character is doing.

And just to be clear, I of course know it is not a good build by any means, but I used is for the RP value, more than anything. Also, and I may be confusing classes, I'm using this Necromancer class: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Necromancer_%283.5e_Class%29

So, the thing is, I know that the BAB (not counting the STR and DEX modifiers) is 10, but what I mean is that I'm not sure how to calculate the second (and third, since he's using a +5 weapon) attack.

Blame the fact that I'm awful with numbers.

Just checking, you're aware that's a homebrew class, right? Generally speaking you need to specify the source for these things, since nobody on this forum would have known which homebrewed necromancer class you were using otherwise.

Anyway, you don't get a third attack. You take your BAB, and you subtract five, and that's your second attack. If the resulting number is greater than five, you do the same thing again. Alternatively, you find a class with the same BAB and just use that number, since any BAB number will already be represented on one of the class tables. Either way, your attacks are +10/+5, plus whatever other bonuses you have.

[Telonius]

That's EXACTLY what the character is doing.

And just to be clear, I of course know it is not a good build by any means, but I used is for the RP value, more than anything. Also, and I may be confusing classes, I'm using this Necromancer class: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Necromancer_%283.5e_Class%29

So, the thing is, I know that the BAB (not counting the STR and DEX modifiers) is 10, but what I mean is that I'm not sure how to calculate the second (and third, since he's using a +5 weapon) attack.

Blame the fact that I'm awful with numbers.

Unfortunately you only get two attacks. The number of extra attacks (called "iteratives") is determined only by the Base Attack Bonus. You get 1 attack when the bonus is between 0 and 5, two when it's between 6 and 10, three when it's between 11 and 15, maxing out at four attacks when it's 16 and over. There are ways to get around the hard limit (using two weapons, the Haste spell and other similar enchantments, and a few random other things that are granted by feats and such), but usually Base Attack Bonus is the only thing that matters as far as number of attacks go.

Each iterative attack is at a bonus of 5 less than the previous attack. So, he has a +10 base attack bonus, with a +5 weapon, and a strength of +2. That means that (not looking at any other bonuses), the attack values would be +17 (= 10+5+2) /+12.

[EDIT: d'oh, forgot to list that BAB 0 gets an attack!]

[Kraken]

Have you considered the Dread Necromancer, from Heroes of Horror? It's a class based around doing exactly what you want to do.

[Karl Aegis]

A class that lets you raise Death Knights and Spectres at no cost. Or dang Skull Lords. You've got to love undead that attract and create more undead. It would be more bearable if the spell-like ability's caster level was actually tied to the class and did not default to hit dice. Or didn't allow you to get greater undead (wraiths) 6 levels early.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Illumian Dread Necromancer 8/Cleric 1/True Necromancer 12

Pick Death and Deathbound domains. 18th level DN casting (CL 20, and CL 22 or 24 for necromancy spells, depending on how you stack krau sigil and necromantic prowess), 11th level cleric casting (CL 13, or 17 for necromancy spells), 24th level rebuking and 17th level rebuking, at level 21. You can control a lot of extra undead through DN 8. You just about qualify for epic spellcasting, with 9th level spells at level 21.

True necromancer is hardly a winning option pre-epic, but if you're going past 20, the double casting advancement becomes useful (more spell slots, yay). And necromantic prowess is nice for controlling more undead.

To go staff-fighting, use DMM:Persist to get yourself Divine Power all day long. Although I'm not convinced that's a good idea, since you have spells and everything.

Incidentally, that homebrew you linked is hacked together from Dread Necromancer and True Necromancer. There is pretty much nothing original in there.

[Nightraiderx]

If you want to fight with a staff, there is an enchantment that replaces your normal low bab with medium bab for +1.
Although I forget the name of it at the moment and I'm surprised no one mentioned it so he could get +5 to hit.
Also as long as you didn't ban transmutation you can prepare wraith strike and hit touch ac's when you attack people.

[Telonius]

(If somebody's having trouble figuring out how many attacks a +10 BAB gives you, you might want to hold off telling them how to get to DMM Persist shenanigans. Just sayin'. )

[Sr.Crowley]

Just checking, you're aware that's a homebrew class, right? Generally speaking you need to specify the source for these things, since nobody on this forum would have known which homebrewed necromancer class you were using otherwise.

I was not aware. My apologies for the confusion. It was what my DM approved, however, so there's that. Might have to convince her to use the Dread Necromancer class!


Each iterative attack is at a bonus of 5 less than the previous attack. So, he has a +10 base attack bonus, with a +5 weapon, and a strength of +2. That means that (not looking at any other bonuses), the attack values would be +17 (= 10+5+2) /+12.

Now that's what I was looking for! I was not aware how to calculate the multiple attacks (if any).

Thank you all for your help and advises, I really appreciate it! :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Now that's what I was looking for! I was not aware how to calculate the multiple attacks (if any).

Remember that a quarterstaff is a double-weapon, meaning that you can choose to make two-weapon fighting attacks with it. This will let you take an extra attack, albeit at absolutely hideous penalties (unless you take the feat Two-Weapon Fighting).

[Sr.Crowley]

Remember that a quarterstaff is a double-weapon, meaning that you can choose to make two-weapon fighting attacks with it. This will let you take an extra attack, albeit at absolutely hideous penalties (unless you take the feat Two-Weapon Fighting).

I actually gave him that - along with Weapon Focus and Weapon Especialization. He's some kind of mage warlord that wants to make a demon and undead army with a good dental plan.

But anyway, I calculate, using what you guys told me (adding penalties and bonuses) that his melee attack with a quarterstaff would be +16/+11/+6/+1, with both ends. I'm correct?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I actually gave him that - along with Weapon Focus and Weapon Especialization. He's some kind of mage warlord that wants to make a demon and undead army with a good dental plan.

But anyway, I calculate, using what you guys told me (adding penalties and bonuses) that his melee attack with a quarterstaff would be +16/+11/+6/+1, with both ends. I'm correct?
If you have +10 base attack bonus, and two-weapon fighting, you'll attack at +8/+3 with your main-hand and at +8 with your off-hand, plus your strength modifier, weapon enhancement bonus and so on. You mentioned a strenght modifier of +2 and a +5 weapon, so your full attack is +16/+11 main-hand and +16 off-hand.



The two-weapon fighting feat adds ONE attack with your off-hand weapon, and ALL attacks you make that round take a -2 penalty.



Base attack bonus does NOT include strength modifier, weapon enhancement or weapon focus. You do NOT get bonus attacks for using a +5 weapon.

[Sr.Crowley]

If you have +10 base attack bonus, and two-weapon fighting, you'll attack at +8/+3 with your main-hand and at +8 with your off-hand, plus your strength modifier, weapon enhancement bonus and so on. You mentioned a strenght modifier of +2 and a +5 weapon, so your full attack is +16/+11 main-hand and +16 off-hand.

The two-weapon fighting feat adds ONE attack with your off-hand weapon, and ALL attacks you make that round take a -2 penalty.

Base attack bonus does NOT include strength modifier, weapon enhancement or weapon focus. You do NOT get bonus attacks for using a +5 weapon.

Now that's what I was looking for. I was not aware that you do not get extra attacks for the weapon enhancements, but that's useful to know. Guess I'll have to put some magic on the weapon to compensate!

Once again, thank you!

[Threadnaught]

Wow, that thing is powerful.
d6 HD?
2nd level Spells at 1st level?
3rd level Spells at 3rd level?
Sorcerer Casting?
Knows all Spells?
Druid's Animal Companion with Undead Type?
Animate Dead as a 3rd level Spell?
Desecrate as a 2nd level Spell?
Controllable Undead HD equal to 4 + Charisma mod x Level?

It'd be complicated enough if you'd use the Dread Necromancer Class from Heroes of Horror. Even just an Evil Cleric would be bad enough. The more HD of Undead you control, the more complicated you make encounters, Dread Necromancer is considered by some to be the best Necromancer for creating armies.


That, thing, you posted is just insane.
With a meager amount of optimizing at level 4, I'm thinking of something rather simple. Venerable Raptoran with a base Charisma of 18, that's 24 Charisma for a +7 modifier, put a point in Charisma, so it'll go up again at level 8.
That's 11HD of Undead to command at each level, almost three times as many as the Dread Necromancer. 44 at 4th level. A Dread Necro wouldn't even begin until 8th level, so it's better to start there.

26 Charisma, same character, but level 8 now. Character can control 104HD worth of Undead, plus their Undead Animal Companion.
A Dread Nnecromancer can only control 32HD of Undead at that level.

[Flickerdart]

But anyway, I calculate, using what you guys told me (adding penalties and bonuses) that his melee attack with a quarterstaff would be +16/+11/+6/+1, with both ends. I'm correct?
You have to enchant both ends separately, so assuming only one end is +5, your 10 BAB, Weapon Focus, and +2 STR gives you +18/+13 when attacking with one end and +16/+11 with the +5 end and +11 with the non-magical end when dual-wielding.

If you take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, you get an extra off-hand attack at -5 (so +16/+11 with the enchanted end and +11/+6 with the non-enchanted end).

If you want even more attacks, add the Speed property (+3) to the staff for an extra attack at your full attack bonus, putting your total attacks at +16/+16/+11/+11/+6.

Now, those are pretty lousy numbers for a 10th level character. Use spells to boost your Strength and to-hit - Extended Greater Magic Weapon is really good for raising those plusses without spending money.