Grappling questions .

[Melcar]

Hello...

When you are grappling, do you have the full (AC) use of your shield, and if so, against who?


When grappling is says you can attack once per base attack 2 times at +6, 3 times at +11 and 4 times at +16. Now does that mean that I can make an opposed grapple check to damage the opponent I'm grappling 2/3/4 times in one round? And if so, what damage does et do, if I have natural weapons like an owl bear? Because it only mentions non-lethal damage as an option?


If the creature that grapples has 3 attacks (2 claws, 1 bite), how many attack can it make when grappling? d20srd, says: If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

If a creature has Improved Grap (Ex), hits, wins the grapple; does it then do damage: 1 time for the hit, and one time for the successful grapple? Thus two times in a row? And what damage would that be?

Thanks in advance

[Firest Kathon]

Well grapppling is hard :). I'll try to answer your questions

When you are grappling, do you have the full (AC) use of your shield, and if so, against who?
You have the full use of the shield against all opponents. However, it does not give you a bonus on your grapple check.

When grappling is says you can attack once per base attack 2 times at +6, 3 times at +11 and 4 times at +16. Now does that mean that I can make an opposed grapple check to damage the opponent I'm grappling 2/3/4 times in one round?
Yes, you can make one grapple check per attack.

And if so, what damage does et do, if I have natural weapons like an owl bear? Because it only mentions non-lethal damage as an option?
You have two options, detailed in the "If You’re Grappling" section on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple):

Make a normal attack with your natural weapon. This takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll, but deals normal damage for that attack.
Make a grapple check. This deals nonleathal damage as normal, e.g. 1d3 for a medium creature. However, if you have the Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) special ability, you deals the damage of the attack with which you made the grapple (i.e. if you started the grapple with your Bite, you cannot deal claw damage that way).


If the creature that grapples has 3 attacks (2 claws, 1 bite), how many attack can it make when grappling?
The creature can make one attack if conducting the grapple normally. A creature with the Improved Grab special ability can instead hold the target in the body part that started the grapple, and attack normally. For example, if the creature above has started the grapple with its claw, if could make an attack with the other claw and with the bite. In this case, it gets a -20 penalty on all grapple checks ,e.g when the target tries to break the grapple.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

If a creature has Improved Grap (Ex), hits, wins the grapple; does it then do damage: 1 time for the hit, and one time for the successful grapple? Thus two times in a row? And what damage would that be?
If a creature has Improved Grab and hits with the attack that has that special ability, it deals normal damage for that attack. It can then make a free grapple check to start the grapple, but does not deal additional damage on a successful check.

[Riculf]

If you have Improved Unarmed Strike (via class/feat) your unarmed strikes can do lethal or non-lethal damage, at your option. This will apply to resolving the damage to each of the grapple checks as each successful one does damage based on the unarmed strike. As I understand it, the only time the damage is not applied is if you attempt another type of action that requires a grapple check such as if you move your grappled opponent.

This is why many think the grapple rules are cumbersome and poorly written as the contradictions start to stack up pretty quickly. You frequently need to get to RAI, rather than RAW, to make something coherent. :smallbiggrin:

[Melcar]

You have the full use of the shield against all opponents. However, it does not give you a bonus on your grapple check.


So... when would shield ward kick in?



Yes, you can make one grapple check per attack.

So, if the owlbear has +6 base attack, it can either do two grapple checks to inflict two claw damage or do 1 attack like normal, with a -4 penalty? Or try and keep the target in one claw and use the 2 left over attacks normally if it succeeds in a grapple check with a -20 penalty?

[DeltaEmil]

So... when would shield ward kick in?You gain your bonus from shield ward on your grapple check to deny your opponent from establishing a hold, under step 3.

So, if the owlbear has +6 base attack, it can either do two grapple checks to inflict two claw damage or do 1 attack like normal, with a -4 penalty? Or try and keep the target in one claw and use the 2 left over attacks normally if it succeeds in a grapple check with a -20 penalty?Yes.

[Firest Kathon]

So, if the owlbear has +6 base attack, it can either do two grapple checks to inflict two claw damage or do 1 attack like normal, with a -4 penalty? Or try and keep the target in one claw and use the 2 left over attacks normally if it succeeds in a grapple check with a -20 penalty?

Yes.

No, you never get additional attacks with a natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) due to a high attack bonus:

Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.
The Owlbear only has the second option of using the remaining attacks with the -20 penalty on the grapple check.


You gain your bonus from shield ward on your grapple check to deny your opponent from establishing a hold, under step 3.
You also get it on the touch attack to start the grapple, if the attacker makes a normal grapple attempt, and of course against the attack of a creature with Improved Grab.


If you have Improved Unarmed Strike (via class/feat) your unarmed strikes can do lethal or non-lethal damage, at your option. This will apply to resolving the damage to each of the grapple checks as each successful one does damage based on the unarmed strike.
This is not true for characters with the Unarmed Strike feat in general, only for Monks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) (section "Damage your opponent"):

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal.


This is why many think the grapple rules are cumbersome and poorly written as the contradictions start to stack up pretty quickly. You frequently need to get to RAI, rather than RAW, to make something coherent.
The rules are cumbersome and badly written, but actually coherent. They are quite over the place and with a lot of exceptions. But many people do not properly read the rules, and mix in a lot of house rules.

[Riculf]

No, you never get additional attacks with a natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) due to a high attack bonus:

The Owlbear only has the second option of using the remaining attacks with the -20 penalty on the grapple check.


You also get it on the touch attack to start the grapple, if the attacker makes a normal grapple attempt, and of course against the attack of a creature with Improved Grab.


This is not true for characters with the Unarmed Strike feat in general, only for Monks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) (section "Damage your opponent"):



The rules are cumbersome and badly written, but actually coherent. They are quite over the place and with a lot of exceptions. But many people do not properly read the rules, and mix in a lot of house rules.

I agree that the rules are badly written :smallbiggrin:. As I read it the RAW on d20SRD seems clear on ALL uses of the feat "Improved Unarmed Strike". You can treat damage as lethal or non-lethal. Monks get IAS as a free feat and can up the damage they do for an unarmed strike as part of the class, although anyone can get the slightly lesser feat of Superior Unarmed Strike (BoNS p33) to up the dice done.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedUnarmedStrike

[Melcar]

No, you never get additional attacks with a natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) due to a high attack bonus:

The Owlbear only has the second option of using the remaining attacks with the -20 penalty on the grapple check.


I know they dont get more attacks, but it says that you can do additional grapple checks (1 per attack) to deal aditional damage, which because of improved grab is a claw attack for the owlbear in question. Does this not work? If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Activate a Magic Item
You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require spell completion activation. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.

Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Cast a Spell
You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

Damage Your Opponent
While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

Im sorry if I'm slow, but I have read and reread the thing, and it still isnt clear to me.

[DeltaEmil]

No, you never get additional attacks with a natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) due to a high attack bonus:Melcar used a hypothetical bugbear with BAB +6 as an example.
So, if the owlbear has +6 base attack

[Firest Kathon]

The important sentence is this:

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks,
As the Owlbear uses natural attacks, his BAB does never allow him multiple attacks (see my quote above). It does not matter how high the BAB is.

If you find the 3.5 Grapple rules too confusing, I suggest to use the Pathfinder Combat Maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers) rules in your game. While not exactly simple, they are a lot easier and clearer than the 3.5 rules. They are, however, slightly weaker, but that goes for both you and your opponents. Notice especially the linked flowchart for Grapples, which is handy.

[DeltaEmil]

@Firest Kathon: The BAB of +6 still allows the owlbear to make two unarmed strikes at +6 and +1 (modified by its size and Strength modifier), and therefore up to 2 grapple checks (if it starts the round already in grapple, of course). The owlbear with a hypothetical BAB of +6 that managed to get a hold on its prey with its improved grab special ability can make 2 grapple checks which deal its claw damage instead of unarmed strikes.

[Firest Kathon]

The owlbear can absolutely make two unarmed strikes - however, those are not natural weapon attacks, he would invoke attacks of opportunity (because he does not have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) and deal 1d4 nonlethal damage, as appropriate to its large size.

There is a difference between an unarmed strike, and an attack with a natural weapon. Once you consider this, it becomes a lot clearer.

[DeltaEmil]

The point about the unarmed strikes it only to show that in the end, the BAB +6 owlbear can make two grapple checks (because you can substitute a grapple check for an attack during a grapple, of course). And the BAB +6 owlbear can deal claw damage with its grapple checks if it got a hold of its target through its improved grab special ability.

each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

Round 1: BAB +6 owlbear attacks prey and hits with claw. Owlbear makes a grapple check as a free action because of its improved grab special ability, and succeeds. The target is now held in grapple.
Round 2: BAB +6 owlbear makes two grapple checks to deal damage, because of its sufficiently high BAB. With each successful grapple check, it deals its claw damage, because it initiated the grapple through its improved grab.

[Firest Kathon]

I disagree on your reading of the rules here. As per the rule I quote before, the Owlbear does not get additional grapple checks due to its high BAB. The one grapple check it does get deals Claw damage, though.

Anyways, I think we should agree to disagree on this topic.

[DeltaEmil]

If the BAB +6 owlbear made unarmed strikes, it would get two unarmed strike attacks (which would provoke attacks of opportunity unless it somehow has Improved Unarmed Strike). If the owlbear was making a normal grapple attempt (and somehow succeeds despite provoking attacks of opportunity - unless it had the Improved Grapple feat), it would get two grapple checks. The owlbear can make pathetic attacks-of-opportunity-provoking unarmed strikes, just like any other creature.

All that improved grab does is to allow the BAB +6 owlbear to grapple as a free action when it hits a creature of 1 size category smaller than itself (so normally Medium-sized at most) with its claw attacks, and then deal claw damage with its 2 grapple checks in successive rounds. I am not saying that the BAB +6 owlbear gets an extra attack with its natural attacks, or anything in that regard.

It is quite clear.

[endur]

You frequently need to get to RAI, rather than RAW, to make something coherent.

Sadly, this is what a GM has to do. You have to interpret grappling and some of the other combat rules by the spirit of what is intended rather than what is written explicitly.

[Coidzor]

The owlbear can absolutely make two unarmed strikes - however, those are not natural weapon attacks, he would invoke attacks of opportunity (because he does not have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) and deal 1d4 nonlethal damage, as appropriate to its large size.

There is a difference between an unarmed strike, and an attack with a natural weapon. Once you consider this, it becomes a lot clearer.

If making an unarmed strike attack as part of attacking an opponent, though an owlbear really wouldn't have any reason to do so.

You don't make an unarmed strike attack when you're using a grapple check to damage your opponent. You just *deal* damage as if rolling unarmed strike after the grapple check, thus there's no possibility for an attack of opportunity because no attack roll is actually made.

Further, seeing as how the owlbear's Improved Grab substitutes in its claw damage instead of unarmed strike damage when using grapple checks to damage a grappled opponent, it may do so twice due to having BAB 6+, which, coincidentally, allows it to roll the same amount of claw damage as it would on a successful full attack without actually rolling any claw attacks. So it's not cheesing a way to get more attacks than the owlbear would have normally anyway. It's actually less because that bite is left out in this equation.

Although it is possible to read the text of improved grab so that it just does unarmed strike damage with grapple checks if it's conducting a grapple normally instead of taking the -20 to grapple checks to not be considered grappled itself. It would still get 2 opportunities to grapple to damage its opponent or pin it or move it, etc. due to having BAB +6, but the damage from damaging its opponent in a grapple would be less impressive and non-lethal, unless they take a -4 on the grapple check, which they just might, but, hey, knocked out prey is eaten as easily as killed prey.

Natural weapons and grappling are, alas, kind of a messy subject, and both Ur-Priest's Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) and Keld Denar and Solo's Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=482.0) seem to be silent on that front when so often they help penetrate the RAW and have some simple explanations for things.