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Emperor Demonking
2007-04-06, 06:24 AM
I have two questions to ask what does pun-pun mean to you.
What level do you think pun-pun is.

Kaerou
2007-04-06, 06:29 AM
Pun-Pun was a fun joke for 2 minutes, that had me going 'heh, that works?'

Then came the 1000+ posts and threads :/

Zincorium
2007-04-06, 06:32 AM
Last I checked? Level one. A paladin, oddly enough. But level five is the 'classic' build.

As far as what pun-pun means to me? Pun-pun is the poster kobold for shoddy editing and conceptual oversights on WotC's part. A symptom of the need they have to stat each and every concept out into an ability. Manipulate form did not need to be an ability gained by each sarruhk (sp?), but that's what they did. Same with all the divine powers.

It's also an example of how pervasive synergy and emergent effects can be. The best argument for how messed up the 'if you don't like it, use Rule 0' is. An excuse to restrict everything to the core books. A mixture of admirable skill and loathsome raw materials.

Jack Mann
2007-04-06, 06:33 AM
Pun-Pun means a specific build involving abuse of assume supernatural ability and a creature from Serpent Kingdoms, giving the user, a kobold, the ability to gain any ability he wishes.

Pun-Pun is level five, at least to start with.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-04-06, 06:38 AM
Level 1, at last sight. They got him down to the venerable human expert 1, but I think through some Pazuzu trickery, he's LE, and ready to assume all those near-infinite abilities from birth. :smalleek:

NullAshton
2007-04-06, 07:14 AM
If I recall correctly, he's actually level 12 to start with.

Morty
2007-04-06, 07:18 AM
He used to, but last time I've seen it, it was 5th level kobold Wizard/Divine Minion/Master of Many Forms.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-06, 08:47 AM
A reminder that not every single spell, item, and monster description in the RAW has been thought through completely, and that there's a reason D&D requires one player to act as referee.

Perhaps more generally, a reminder of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

Though, seriously... how the writers could fail to see the potential abuse of an ability that permanently grants an ability to another without xp cost to either...

Jannex
2007-04-06, 08:59 AM
Pun-pun, to me, represents everything I dislike most about D&D: over-"optimization", cheesing for cheesing's sake, and an utter disregard for anything remotely relating to character concept and roleplaying. Pun-pun is like the divine avatar of "video-game mentality," wherein coming up with the most twinked-out, abusive set of stats permissible under the RAW is a laudable goal. Even though I realize that the guy who first came up with Pun-pun never intended and never wanted the character to be played, I consider its existence a monument to everything I think is wrong with D&D, writ large. The micromanagement, the math, the systems-over-setting approach that seems so prevalent--over all this, Pun-pun is king.

Pun-pun is level NO. In other words, he does not exist, in the same way that Highlander II (and, depending on my mood, the Star Wars prequel trilogy) does not exist. If, in any game I run, play in, or come within 500 yards of participating in, something occurs to allow Pun-pun the possibility of existing, this will be sufficient cause for Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies.

That said, the version I read had him statted at level 5, though I fully believe that someone has managed to make him happen earlier than that.

Telonius
2007-04-06, 09:02 AM
To me, Pun-Pun is a Greater Deity (Domain Portfolio: Law, Evil, Madness, Squirrel, Cheese, DM). Favored Weapon: "Blue Lightningbolt" (mithral javelin). He is the god of Metagaming and Rules Exploits. Some rumors say he is the manifestation of the DM within the gaming world. Having ascended to the height of cheesiness, he became aware of his existence as a theoretical construction within a fictional universe. Being the Lord of All Cheese, he knows it when he sees it. He is a very crafty deity. He is wise enough to alter the fabric of existence to prevent any other being from achieving even a fraction of his mighty power.

Catch
2007-04-06, 09:04 AM
To me, Pun Pun is concrete evidence that PCs always need a DM around to cuff them a couple of times when they start thinking that they're smarter then they really are. Pun Pun is the incarnation of short-sighted munchkinery.

"You've never seen a Sarruhk, so you can't shapeshift into one. Also, rocks fall. You die."

Rule Zero > Cheese. Every single time.

jjpickar
2007-04-06, 09:07 AM
I like Pun-pun. He proves that when people construct a world the major flaws will always turn out to be pretty disastrous. Plus, Pun-pun just sounds funny.

martyboy74
2007-04-06, 09:07 AM
To me, Pun-Pun is a Greater Deity (Domain Portfolio: Law, Evil, Madness, Squirrel, Cheese, DM). Favored Weapon: "Blue Lightningbolt" (mithral javelin). He is the god of Metagaming and Rules Exploits. Some rumors say he is the manifestation of the DM within the gaming world. Having ascended to the height of cheesiness, he became aware of his existence as a theoretical construction within a fictional universe. Being the Lord of All Cheese, he knows it when he sees it. He is a very crafty deity. He is wise enough to alter the fabric of existence to prevent any other being from achieving even a fraction of his mighty power.

That's beatiful. Beatiful.

Indon
2007-04-06, 10:28 AM
For me, it's the ultimate result of what happens when you view a roleplaying game as an opportunity to crunch numbers, rather than act out characters.

He lies at the end of a long, long slope, to be sure, but I feel the slope to be awfully slick.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-06, 11:19 AM
Pun-Pun is the amalgamation of the results of WoTC not thinking about monsters, and about the interaction of certain abilities.

Pun-Pun is now level one, as he makes a DC 25 knowledge check (with some tricks) to learn about a CE corrupting being (in the fiendish codex, known as Pazazu) that grants a wish to any being saying its name thrice in succession, in an attempt to corrupt it to CE.

Of course, he wishes ring of three wishes, retrains (using PHB 2 rules?) a skill focus into assume supernatural ability (which is now legit, as he can assume a new form magically with wish).

Polymorph any object with his psycrystal into a viper, polymorph self into sarrukh, assume manipulate form, proceed. Couple of other methods abound, but that's the simple one.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-04-06, 11:23 AM
I think everyone's being a bit too harsh on those who created our friend the kobold. He's not some sort of ultra-roll-players ultimate goal (cf. Stormwind Fallacy), except to those people who say:

L00K I CAN \/\/1N DnD WITH UR r00|_2!!!!1!! I 4M T3H R0X0R5!!!1!

Catch, do you seriously believe that anyone sensible has played PunPun? It's not an example of 'short-sighted munchkinery' because it's not designed to be used in a game. No-one is trying to break the game.

The whole point of him, and basically everything on the theoretical optimisation boards, is to show the WotC designers and playtesters that they need to be a bit more thorough. I once read an interview in which a WotC designer said that it was his biggest asset for reasserting balance.

Furthermore, there's always the fun factor. It's fun to try and find ways of destroying a character with immunity:nearly everything and stats:near infinite.

Tormsskull
2007-04-06, 11:24 AM
Pun-pun, to me, represents everything I dislike most about D&D: over-"optimization", cheesing for cheesing's sake, and an utter disregard for anything remotely relating to character concept and roleplaying.

Will you marry me?

MaxKaladin
2007-04-06, 11:42 AM
I have no idea what "Pun-Pun" is. I keep seeing references to this "Pun-Pun" but I have no idea who or what he/she/it is supposed to be. Thus, I suppose "Pun-Pun means "something people talk about that I don't understand" to me.

This thread has given me a bit of insight, I suppose. I gather it's a really "broken" kobold character of some kind that's made possible by sloppy rules and rules lawyering, but that's about it.

Dark_Wind
2007-04-06, 11:47 AM
The whole point of him, and basically everything on the theoretical optimisation boards, is to show the WotC designers and playtesters that they need to be a bit more thorough. I once read an interview in which a WotC designer said that it was his biggest asset for reasserting balance.

Furthermore, there's always the fun factor. It's fun to try and find ways of destroying a character with immunity:nearly everything and stats:near infinite.

Quoted for veracity. I've never heard of anyone playing Pun-Pun, or any of that crazy stuff from Char-Op, though it has given rise to my joking "Oh, I know! I'm gonna play a Kobold Psion!" every so often.

The rules are imperfect, and we all know it. Most of us, I'd like to think, avoid exploiting promblems with the rules in actual games because, well, it ruins the fun for everyone else. That doesn't mean that looking over rulebooks and searching for loopholes for the hell of it isn't fun in and of itself, though.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-06, 11:50 AM
Here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801)

Pun-Pun is the GOD of brokeness. He has every ability that ever existed, and can be created at the very least, by level 17. He can create his own abilities, and knows every spell as an at will Sp ability (quickened, etc). He has as many divine ranks and as high ability scores as he wants, and he can have effectively infinate HD.

When a player tries to call some sort of extraplanar being for broken reasons, a kobold with a viper around its shoulder often comes, and says "nice try".

Look around on this (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=330) board for other examples.

JaronK
2007-04-06, 11:51 AM
Pun Pun was originally just a numbers excercise. He's not cheesy... he's not intended to be played at all. He's essencially a math problem, and he's in fact a very clever solution to that problem.

That said, in my games Pun Pun is an overdiety. He used his abilities to gain infiniate Wisdom and Intelligence, and once he had those he knew he was part of a game, and that said game would only function effectively so long as it was at least relatively balanced and the players were happy. As such, he made himself the God of Exploits and Things Which Are About To Be Exploits. As such, he is instantly aware if someone's going to do something which would be an exploit, and sends a Nut Pun (a divine squirrel servant of Pun Pun) to deal with the situation, usually in a manner which will stop the exploit but give the player a prize for originality so the player is happy.

JaronK

MaxKaladin
2007-04-06, 11:52 AM
Pun-pun, to me, represents everything I dislike most about D&D: over-"optimization", cheesing for cheesing's sake, and an utter disregard for anything remotely relating to character concept and roleplaying. Pun-pun is like the divine avatar of "video-game mentality," wherein coming up with the most twinked-out, abusive set of stats permissible under the RAW is a laudable goal. I have similar feelings, but I generally keep my mouth shut about it. I won't further derail the thread by complaining about it though.

Ulzgoroth
2007-04-06, 11:53 AM
The earlier versions are just sloppy rules, I dunno about the one that works at level 1.

They made a Su ability that allows you to perform a number of outrageous changes on any 'scalykind' creature with duration instant, including granting it abilities (that you have, I think). You acquire this ability by shapeshift magic or maybe a summoning trick, and bestow it on another reptile. Familiars are nice. Then, if you didn't have the ability permanently already, have the reptile bestow it back (that's why you're a kobold). Then by using the other aspects of the ability, you can pump your ability scores into the stratosphere (without limit). After that I think there's some trickery you can use involving divinity mechanics...

What it represents most of all is the absurd assumption by writers that an infinitely broken power is perfectly fine if it isn't on a PC playable race.

MaxKaladin
2007-04-06, 12:04 PM
They made a Su ability that allows you to perform a number of outrageous changes on any 'scalykind' creature with duration instant, including granting it abilities (that you have, I think). You acquire this ability by shapeshift magic or maybe a summoning trick, and bestow it on another reptile. Familiars are nice. Then, if you didn't have the ability permanently already, have the reptile bestow it back (that's why you're a kobold). Then by using the other aspects of the ability, you can pump your ability scores into the stratosphere (without limit). After that I think there's some trickery you can use involving divinity mechanics...I see. Sigh.


What it represents most of all is the absurd assumption by writers that an infinitely broken power is perfectly fine if it isn't on a PC playable race.I thought one of the points of 3.x was that there were no more "non-PC playable" races (or pretty much anything else) anymore and that you could be a half-troll, half-drow, half-dragon vampiric werebear if you wanted to. If it didn't start that way, it certainly seems that way now if the various threads I read on D&D boards are any indication.

Gnomick
2007-04-06, 01:44 PM
To me, Pun-Pun is proof that the most important rule in D&D is the social contract between the players (including the DM). You can let somebody play almost anything so long as you trust that player to not make the game un-fun for the other players.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-06, 01:55 PM
To me Pun-Pun is a godsend. Whenever someone claims 3.5 is balanced you just link to that thread. If they still want to argue that 3.5 is balanced after reading that then you are free to whack that person on the head with the DMG.

KoDT69
2007-04-06, 02:16 PM
Ooooh, I knew that feat Improved Critical - DMG wasn't a waste!

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-06, 02:20 PM
Pun-pun, to me, represents everything I dislike most about D&D: over-"optimization", cheesing for cheesing's sake, and an utter disregard for anything remotely relating to character concept and roleplaying. Pun-pun is like the divine avatar of "video-game mentality," wherein coming up with the most twinked-out, abusive set of stats permissible under the RAW is a laudable goal. Even though I realize that the guy who first came up with Pun-pun never intended and never wanted the character to be played, I consider its existence a monument to everything I think is wrong with D&D, writ large. The micromanagement, the math, the systems-over-setting approach that seems so prevalent--over all this, Pun-pun is king.

...you realize, of course, that Pun-Pun isn't there for playing? Pun-Pun isn't meant to be played; he's just a demonstration of the things you can do with the rules (and how broken Manipulate Form is).

NullAshton
2007-04-06, 02:20 PM
To me Pun-Pun is a godsend. Whenever someone claims 3.5 is balanced you just link to that thread. If they still want to argue that 3.5 is balanced after reading that then you are free to whack that person on the head with the DMG.

With that logic, you can prove that every system, every game in existance is broken.

Tormsskull
2007-04-06, 02:22 PM
...you realize, of course, that Pun-Pun isn't there for playing?



Even though I realize that the guy who first came up with Pun-pun never intended and never wanted the character to be played


I'm going to guess that yes, she does realize that.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-06, 02:25 PM
Whoops.

...so, then, what's the problem? Shouldn't the problem be that pun-pun is possible, not that someone wrote him up?

selfcritical
2007-04-06, 02:28 PM
I'm going to guess that yes, she does realize that.

Her longer statement makes no sense in light of that consideration though, so one wonders if it has quite sunk in.

Amotis
2007-04-06, 02:54 PM
It's a joke for me. Something to allude to with a tongue in cheek fondness. Like THACO.

Tormsskull
2007-04-06, 03:02 PM
Her longer statement makes no sense in light of that consideration though, so one wonders if it has quite sunk in.

It makes perfect sense to me.



Pun-pun, to me, represents everything I dislike most about D&D: over-"optimization", cheesing for cheesing's sake, and an utter disregard for anything remotely relating to character concept and roleplaying.


These are the things she hates. Take those things to the extreme, and you'll find Pun-Pun as the final product.

But she put it better than I:



The micromanagement, the math, the systems-over-setting approach that seems so prevalent--over all this, Pun-pun is king.

LotharBot
2007-04-06, 03:07 PM
With that logic, you can prove that every system, every game in existance is broken.

Chess isn't broken. Tic-tac-toe isn't broken. You can mathematically prove certain games are "perfect" and not at all broken.

What pun-pun and similar creations demonstrate is that D&D is not one of those games. The rules, as written, are filled with exploits. The rules, as written, allow for consequences that weren't at all intended. Because it's hard for a group of people to create a completely consistant, coherent, unbroken and unbreakable system as large as D&D.

What pun-pun demonstrates is that, while it's possible to completely break the system to the point where you "win", it doesn't make for a very fun game. D&D isn't fun without challenges, and in order to face challenges, you have to have a character that's challengeable.

Pun-pun is a reminder to us all that we should stick to the spirit of the game, rather than the letter of the rules.

Indon
2007-04-06, 03:13 PM
Chess isn't broken. Tic-tac-toe isn't broken. You can mathematically prove certain games are "perfect" and not at all broken.

Since the objective of D&D is not to achieve a numerical goal, this criteria is inapplicable.

Also, tic-tac-toe favors the first player. (Edit: though if I recall, two perfect strategies will always lead to a draw)

Telonius
2007-04-06, 03:15 PM
Tic-tac-toe isn't broken.


Joshua would disagree. :smallbiggrin:

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-06, 03:17 PM
Moving to roleplaying games: the Amber DRPG, while it has its flaws, isn't broken. Spirit of the Century isn't broken. Dogs in the Vineyard isn't broken. Wushu isn't broken. These games are also, incidentally, generally better for roleplaying than D&D.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-06, 03:20 PM
SR 4 is one of the most balanced RPG's that I have ever seen. M&M 2 is fairly well balanced as well.

LotharBot
2007-04-06, 04:04 PM
Since the objective of D&D is not to achieve a numerical goal, this criteria is inapplicable.

Inapplicable, but illustrative of the point that not all games are broken. (Incidentally, a "perfect" game is one in which the first player always wins if they play perfectly, but the second player always wins if the first player makes a mistake and the second player plays perfectly.)

D&D is broken, not because all games are broken*, but because of some of the specific mechanics of D&D that lead to unintended consequences.


* tic tac toe wasn't "broken" in Joshua's case. It was "an interesting game" because there was no winning strategy.

UglyPanda
2007-04-06, 04:08 PM
Pun Pun is funny. It exists because of a couple of editing flaws and continues to exist because no sane person would allow it to be used in his or her campaign. Of course, anyone who thinks they can "beat" Pun-Pun is absolutely insane because Pun-Pun isn't something with published stats like the Tarrasque. Pun-Pun is the summation of every dirty trick ever discovered in D&D and any attempts to defeat it will only make it stronger as it'll incorporate those tricks into itself.

Indon
2007-04-06, 04:17 PM
D&D is broken, not because all games are broken*, but because of some of the specific mechanics of D&D that lead to unintended consequences.

A roleplaying game that would not meet that criteria does not strike me as a game with much complexity at all.

Though, Kobolds Ate My Baby was surprisingly enjoyable to play...

Edit: Also, I'd gotten my terminology wrong, and had confused the term "perfect game" with "fair game".

Jason Va hater
2007-04-06, 04:29 PM
Pun-Pun means to me that humanity is flawed and will never create a perfect system for anything least of all RPing.

I am sure that with enough effort that any RP system can be broken in much the same way.

Something about the arguement about how 3.5 is broken and other system are not reminds me of the Windows Vs Linux battle

Innis Cabal
2007-04-06, 04:43 PM
amazing, pure and simple. The fact that someone has that kind of time to give to making it makes me wonder what they are teaching you kids today, or the lack there of.

Jannex
2007-04-06, 05:15 PM
Whoops.

...so, then, what's the problem? Shouldn't the problem be that pun-pun is possible, not that someone wrote him up?

The problem, as I attempted to define at the beginning of my first post, is that


Pun-pun, to me, represents everything I dislike most about D&D

I then went on to elaborate what it is about D&D that I dislike, which I view Pun-pun as symbolizing. I don't see the fact that Pun-pun in particular is possible, as the problem; rather, I view Pun-pun as symptomatic of a larger problem endemic to the D&D.

This is what Pun-pun means to me, which, coincidentally, is the topic of the thread.

Green Bean
2007-04-06, 05:23 PM
What does pun-pun mean to me? It means that more players than I would have thought need to learn the difference between 'limitless', and infinite. For some reason it drives me nuts when people say pun-pun has infinite stats.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-06, 05:27 PM
Jannex: fair enough.

H_v, Pun-Pun actually DOES have infinite stats nowadays, not just arbitrarily high ones anymore.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-06, 05:36 PM
Pun-Pun serves as a warning upon all that would DM- Learn the system well, and play test to see what all in the system can be abused. Either you dictate that certain game rules don't work certain ways, or you meet the greatest terror in the multiverse.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-06, 05:38 PM
Anyway, with being able to complete any action in an amount of time = 1/NI, he has effectively infinite stats at any given time.

Green Bean
2007-04-06, 05:41 PM
Jannex: fair enough.

H_v, Pun-Pun actually DOES have infinite stats nowadays, not just arbitrarily high ones anymore.

Really? How does it do that?

Tormsskull
2007-04-06, 07:36 PM
amazing, pure and simple. The fact that someone has that kind of time to give to making it makes me wonder what they are teaching you kids today, or the lack there of.


Let me be the first to welcome you into the Grumpy Old Timers Club. We do a lot of shaking our fists at these youngsters & any version after 2nd edition.

*shakes fist*


*snip*

I'll take your silence to mean that you won't in fact marry me *sigh* ok, I'll get through it :smallsmile:.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-06, 07:53 PM
It's okay, dude. It wasn't her- it's you.

I mean... uh, how's that go again? Let's just assume I got it right.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-06, 07:56 PM
He uses the omnicifier trick, dealing himself infinite damage to gain + infinity on any one skill check, attack roll, etc. He then Delays Death, and insta heals himself to full using sychronity with his familiar, transferring over to him, repeated, an infinite number of times.

Or, he sticks his head in a bucket of water, and his familiar pulls him out after he "drops" to 0.

BTW: It's thereof, not there of.

PaladinBoy
2007-04-06, 08:10 PM
Pun-Pun, to me, is a warning to DM and players that the system can be abused. It tells them that they need to be careful and avoid too much cheese.

Other than that, I think it's just a pointless exploit. To me, the point of D&D is to have fun roleplaying through the story of a group of adventurers, with some fighting, of course. I don't really see the fun in finding new and interesting ways to break the rules. The ones we have can be annoying enough. I suppose that if some people like it, then they can do it, but I wouldn't want to spend my free time playing around with the rules like that.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-06, 08:11 PM
Here's one that should get some heated debate going, what with the internet being text-based and all:

How does one pronounce Pun-Pun?

My initial reaction is, "puhn-puhn," like "wow what a terrible pun," but twice. But it's also very plausible that it's "Pyoon-pyoon," sort of a play on how puny kobolds are.

Thoughts?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-06, 08:13 PM
Shh, quiet! We do not speak of how puny kobolds may or may not be in the presence of the almighty Pun-Pun. He can smite you across every single plain at once by shifting his head slightly.

Demented
2007-04-06, 08:37 PM
Oh, good thing we're across a plane from him, and not just a plain. =P


Pun-Pun is the end to all "My character is better than yours" arguments.
That, in itself, is a good thing.

Daneel the Sane
2007-04-06, 08:50 PM
In other words, he does not exist, in the same way that Highlander II (and, depending on my mood, the Star Wars prequel trilogy) does not exist.

Highlander: There Can Be Only One
Highlander II: There SHOULD HAVE BEEN Only One

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-07, 08:31 AM
An utterly stupid name, for an utterly stupid concept.

Level 1 is achieved via Chaotic Evil(not Lawful) saying "Betelge...I mean, (Pazuzu)3" and requesting a Wish, in exchange for your soul.

For further opinions, see my signature.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-07, 10:12 AM
I think you have to be good/lawful, anything but CE, so he will take your soul. Then, of course, he renders himself immortal and revises reality.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-07, 10:56 AM
I think you have to be good/lawful, anything but CE, so he will take your soul. Then, of course, he renders himself immortal and revises reality.

Why? He's a demon, ergo, Chaotic Evil. He would have to literally change your alignment, or write up a contract(which is more Lawful and hence Devilish) in order to get your soul in both those cases.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-07, 11:04 AM
Because, apparently that's what is said on the thread.

Let's see.


Actually, I've been kicking that around since I read about Pazazu when I purchased Hordes of the Abyss. By the books, anyone (including a 1st level character) that knows enough about Pazazu can get a wish granted (assuming they are not already chaotic evil). I just didn't mention it here for the same reason I don't say Pun-Pun is achievable at level 1 with a Dorje of Metamorphosis and a good UMD roll.

But in this case, the book pretty much says 'Pazazu will help you'.



There are drawbacks... evil drawbacks. The recipient automatically shifts one step towards CE (with preference towards becoming chaotic first) with each wish. CE characters are not granted wishes, but "punished".

So, essentially, he has to start as Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, or Lawful Good to get all three, and there WILL be people complaining that it's not a lawful or good act to call Pazuzu. (That's the POINT, though... but they'll still complain.)



Pazuzu shows up only if he wants to, however its pretty much garunteed that he shows up for a paladin (cited as one of his great pleasures) and goes to great pains to ensure that the first one is free

EvilElitest
2007-04-07, 11:45 AM
I'm pretty sure that you get one wish with not bad sid effect before Pazuzu start corrupting you.
Oh, my way to counter Pun-Pun
Homebrew rules
Rule zero
Very short player life expetency
from,
EE

martyboy74
2007-04-07, 11:50 AM
I'm pretty sure that you get one wish with not bad sid effect before Pazuzu start corrupting you.
Oh, my way to counter Pun-Pun
Homebrew rules
Rule zero
Very short player life expetency
from,
EE

We've already established that Rule 0 > Pun-Pun. Anyways, he way only create to help Khan see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

Santanya
2007-04-07, 11:52 AM
Pun-Pun to me, is an example showing that while the rules in the books can be fun, without a proper DM to say 'you can't do that', its all worthless in playing. We should support our DM's that set limitations!

Illiterate Scribe
2007-04-07, 11:54 AM
Wrong!:smalltongue:

He can't see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
Khan created him to see why kids love Coco Pops, but was co-opted for the former inquiry.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-04-07, 04:05 PM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Nny2/punpunposter.jpg
:smallamused:

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-07, 04:54 PM
Pun-Pun isn't the most awful thing that ever happened to DnD, Logic Ninja's "Guide to Being Batman" is.
One sees the rules as a ridiculous friend, something that allows them to have fun with mathematical extremes to cleverly satirize powergaming.

The other is meant to be played and used, an unimaginative exercize in numbercrunching that sees the rules as a tool to let you abuse what should be a fun game.

Pun-Pun reminds me that the Stormwind Fallacy is the fallacy, that powergaming is not some harmless toy that only ruins the game for "n00bs" and half-orc bards, it's a real danger that DMs need to think about and make serious efforts to control before it derails their game.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-07, 06:38 PM
Hey, some people have loads of fun abusing the system. We're called sadists, and it's pretty awesome.

Zincorium
2007-04-07, 06:46 PM
Pun-Pun reminds me that the Stormwind Fallacy is the fallacy, that powergaming is not some harmless toy that only ruins the game for "n00bs" and half-orc bards, it's a real danger that DMs need to think about and make serious efforts to control before it derails their game.

I'd take another look at the body of the stormwind fallacy before grandiosely claiming that it's fallacious in that regard. It does not, at any point, claim that you have to let rules abuses and one-upmanship into the game.

It says that just because someone makes optimized decisions, such as putting a high stat in intelligence for a wizard, does not make them poor roleplayers if they weren't before, and doing the reverse, such as having a wizard incapable of casting spells due to an an intelligence, does not magically make you a better roleplayer.

Pun-Pun is not a roleplaying concept. It has no bearing on the stormwind fallacy. It's purely a rules construct for demonstration purposes.

As far as LN's guide, how many wizards in stories and games are described as becoming mages for the sake of power? In that regard, it would be absurd for a wizard with those motivations to not use their incredible intellect to determine the most favorable of spell repertoires.

That the most favorable path leads somewhere a game should never go is not logic ninja's fault. He did not edit the PHB to include things like timestop. They were there already, and it wouldn't take much to realize that it could easily get out of control.

JoshuaZ
2007-04-07, 07:10 PM
Chess isn't broken. Tic-tac-toe isn't broken. You can mathematically prove certain games are "perfect" and not at all broken.


By many reasonable defintion of "broken" chess is broken. It isn't at all hard to prove that their is an unbeatable strategy for white or black. We just don't know what the strategy is.

Quietus
2007-04-07, 11:25 PM
To me Pun-Pun is simply a poor show of something people have overlooked. Namely, the fact that while yes, the Manipulate Form ability can make one person's strength equal to the other, it relies on another spell, such as Giant Size, to give a bonus to that score. A BONUS. That viper's strength score is still four, even if the magic makes it seem like it isn't.

Ooops, did I just break Pun-pun?

Wehrkind
2007-04-07, 11:54 PM
Wow... were Logic Ninja not banned, I bet he would be honored that his guide to playing the most powerful wizard possible would be deemed the worst thing to happen to DnD. I like to imagine that he is somewhere beyond the stars, looking down upon all of us playing a system with rules, and smiling, that quiet, mysterious smile of someone who knows we will someday move beyond rules into pure RP, but for now we must stumble over our own feet and think that we have the answers.

Really, I think Pun-Pun is the perfect poster child of the idea that incredibly complex systems are impossible to create if they are not self correcting. That is to say, anyone who thinks they can create reality, or describe how someone else did, or even control aspects of something as relatively small as an economy, are delusional. It just goes to show that after one gets beyond a certain number of possible combinations, foreseeing all possible outcomes is well beyond any number of human's capabilities.

I tried to send my congressman a link to Pun-pun with this explanation of why he should oppose government interference in trade, but he replied with essentially "LOL WUT?"

Beleriphon
2007-04-08, 12:01 AM
SR 4 is one of the most balanced RPG's that I have ever seen. M&M 2 is fairly well balanced as well.

Until you take into account certain Shapeshift cheese, but then again the rules actually call out that this can be a broken ability, but is included for completeness.

As for Pun-Pun he's the same thing me building Unicron with Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition. Its a thought experiment, I'd never use a character like that since its completely absurd to assume that it could even work. Just because something can be done using the rules doesn't mean that it should.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-08, 12:38 AM
Pun-Pun isn't the most awful thing that ever happened to DnD, Logic Ninja's "Guide to Being Batman" is.
One sees the rules as a ridiculous friend, something that allows them to have fun with mathematical extremes to cleverly satirize powergaming.

The other is meant to be played and used, an unimaginative exercize in numbercrunching that sees the rules as a tool to let you abuse what should be a fun game.
Did you miss the parts in the guide that point to things like Polymorph and Celerity to say "don't use this, it's broken"? The guide isn't about abusing anything. It just shows how to make a competent wizard.


Pun-Pun reminds me that the Stormwind Fallacy is the fallacy, that powergaming is not some harmless toy that only ruins the game for "n00bs" and half-orc bards, it's a real danger that DMs need to think about and make serious efforts to control before it derails their game.You're really, really missing the point. The Stormwind Fallacy says nothing of the sort. It says that playing a powerful character doesn't make you a poor roleplayer, and playing a weak character doesn't make you a good one. Powergaming and roleplaying are separate things, and you can do both perfectly well.


To me Pun-Pun is simply a poor show of something people have overlooked. Namely, the fact that while yes, the Manipulate Form ability can make one person's strength equal to the other, it relies on another spell, such as Giant Size, to give a bonus to that score. A BONUS. That viper's strength score is still four, even if the magic makes it seem like it isn't.

Ooops, did I just break Pun-pun?
No, you just showed that you don't really know how the rules work. If you were right, do you REALLY think the Character Optimization boards could miss this? Spells alter your strength score--just not permanently. Effects based off of your strength score (which includes, oh, attack rolls) just look at your current score, not where it comes from.


Wow... were Logic Ninja not banned, I bet he would be honored that his guide to playing the most powerful wizard possible would be deemed the worst thing to happen to DnD. I like to imagine that he is somewhere beyond the stars, looking down upon all of us playing a system with rules, and smiling, that quiet, mysterious smile of someone who knows we will someday move beyond rules into pure RP, but for now we must stumble over our own feet and think that we have the answers.
It's not a guide to playing the most powerful wizard possible, it's a guide to playing a highly but not unreasonably effective wizard. The guide explicitly calls out broken spells/feats.
Also, I, uh, don't think he's some kind of Patron Saint of Gaming.

Systemless roleplay has its own problems. Me, I'd just be happy if people started playing D&D a little less, and some of the far better-designed, roleplay-enhancing games out there more.

Wehrkind
2007-04-08, 01:21 AM
Sorry Bears, I should have been more clear. I know it was a guide to being a better wizard; I was pointing out how silly it was to say that such a guide could possibly be the "worst thing to happen to D&D". That one player writing a guide to one class telling others how to get the most out of the class, while saying "Hey, this spell X is broken, don't use it" could be the worst thing to happen to a system is a little like saying "And so little Toby, in not cleaning his room, indirectly caused the fall of man." The bit making him out to be a Patron Saint of Gaming was to further illustrate the ridiculous aspect. I do that sometimes. Particularly since he often pointed out in arguments that he ran systemless games.

I am not saying systemless games are great. I have never even played one. I am just saying he seemed to think they were better, and thus pointing to his guide and screaming "munchkinery!" is sort of silly.

I am kind of surprised you missed that actually... perhaps you have been up too late and need more coffee?

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-08, 01:33 AM
To me Pun-Pun is simply a poor show of something people have overlooked. Namely, the fact that while yes, the Manipulate Form ability can make one person's strength equal to the other, it relies on another spell, such as Giant Size, to give a bonus to that score. A BONUS. That viper's strength score is still four, even if the magic makes it seem like it isn't.

Ooops, did I just break Pun-pun?

That argument's been tried before, and failed. Short answer is that the Psicrystal/Familiar gets the Strength of a Huge/Colossal/whatever Creature, Crystal/Familiar can now raise master's Strength to match its own augmented Strength score(ie whatever the last Strength was, +whatever the spell gave). Crystal/Familiar dismisses the spell, Master now manipulates the Crystal/Familiar's Strength score to match his new maximum. Repeat ad nauseaum.

I guess the answer wasn't that short after all.:smalltongue:

Quietus
2007-04-08, 03:51 AM
Maybe it's just a houserule that we never spoke about and always assumed among my group - when you're talking about trying to do something permanent, we look at the base, sans magical enhancements. So "giving a creature your strength score" would give it your base score, without any bonuses from Giant Size.

It's an easy fix to a silly problem, should it ever come up. Of course, the moment someone starts to try to use Pun-Pun, any DM will smack him anyway.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-08, 03:57 AM
I think Manipulate Form simply stated something like:

[quote]Raise or lower a creature's ability score, up to that of the Sarrukh itself[quote]

Quietus
2007-04-08, 04:14 AM
Yes, that may be. But each one of the people in my group, when I laughed and linked them to Pun-Pun, thought the same as I do. In that situation, classify the strength score as being the unenhanced strength score. Screw you, Pun-Pun, and you now have 4 strength.

But then, if that's the exact wording (I don't have the book, so couldnt' say), then by RAW I suppose that it can be interpreted as Pun-Pun abuseable.

Jannex
2007-04-08, 04:35 AM
Let me be the first to welcome you into the Grumpy Old Timers Club. We do a lot of shaking our fists at these youngsters & any version after 2nd edition.

*shakes fist*



I'll take your silence to mean that you won't in fact marry me *sigh* ok, I'll get through it :smallsmile:.

Well, I was considering it, but now I think you'll probably withdraw your proposal when you find out that I started D&D in 3.0 :smallwink:


Highlander: There Can Be Only One
Highlander II: There SHOULD HAVE BEEN Only One

Indeed.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-04-08, 04:45 AM
What pun-pun means to me is that DnD is vastly inferior to Dogs in the Vineyard.

martyboy74
2007-04-08, 07:47 AM
Yes, that may be. But each one of the people in my group, when I laughed and linked them to Pun-Pun, thought the same as I do. In that situation, classify the strength score as being the unenhanced strength score. Screw you, Pun-Pun, and you now have 4 strength.

But then, if that's the exact wording (I don't have the book, so couldnt' say), then by RAW I suppose that it can be interpreted as Pun-Pun abuseable.

See, that's houseruling, and therefore not really relevant to this debate.

PirateMonk
2007-04-08, 08:01 AM
What pun-pun means to me is that DnD is vastly inferior to Dogs in the Vineyard.

Among other things, yes.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-08, 11:56 AM
Also, Pun-Pun doesn't give a damn, because he can just do this


Manipulate Form and Extreme Cheese:

For the most part, when I refer to abilities possessed by Pun-Pun, I refer to abilities that already exist in a WoTC published sourcebook. The ability is either one seen in a base class or prestige class, or one seen in a monster stat block. However, the wording in the Manipulate Form text does not limit one to published abilities only. In fact, the descriptive text states that any ability can be granted, so long as it is Supernatural, Extraordinary, or Spell-like in nature.

Allowing one the means to obtain most any ability found in published material is certainly broken. Allowing one to grant itself any ability it can conceive is ridiculousness beyond words. Basically, nothing is beyond the power of Pun-Pun, due to unrestrictive text in Manipulate Form.

Pun-Pun can grant himself an ability as innocent as:

Tough it Out

Benefit: If Pun-Pun would go unconscious due to any effect, he instead reamins conscious.

Or, he could grant himself an ability as powerful as:

I Win

Benefit: Pun-Pun cannot be harmed, directly or indirectly. Any act that would harm him automatically fails, at any place and at any given time. Further, Pun-Pun automatically succeeds at anything he attempts.

Given this level of power with Manipulate Form, it would be easy to say he can do anything and no one can stop him. Generally though, I (and most everyone else that has participated in this exercise) do not use this power of Manipulate Form. It is much more fun to stay within the abilities found in the rulebooks, and doing so allows others to challenge Pun-Pun with a sliver of a chance

Or, as another example, he can do this.

Okay, here's a little combo that will help clarify things even more for Pun-Pun. In particular, it will allow for the diversification of his abilities and get past some of the inherent rancor to the "sheer player-invention" aspect of Manipulate Form.

Premise 1: Pun-Pun has access to Epic Spellcasting, and can create any pretty much Epic Spell he imagines.

Premise 2: The Conjure, Fortify, and Life seeds can be used in conjunction to create entirely new creatures. Furthermore, these creatures can be given abilities based on any epic seed added which "replicates the desired ability." Whether these abilities are spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary is up to the creator of the spell.

Premise 3: The Shadow Seed can replicate any spell and any individual. The Transform seed can reproduce any creature/creature's abilities. The Ward Seed can produce immunity to any and all spells. The Reflect Seed offers protection from all ranged, melee, and spell-like attacks. And so on and so forth.

Conclusion: Pun-Pun can create creatures with pretty much any ability, spell, or feature in any mode he desires, which can then be gained through the old Manipulate Form trick. Getting an (Ex) Manipulate Form ability should be first on the list, which would then mean that there's no worrying about gaining total magical immunity. Furthermore, this means that Pun-Pun no longer has to rely on active spells (epic or not), they can all be incorporated into himself as extraordinary (that is, non-magical) abilities of any duration/method of activation desired.


As such, he can grant himself an ability like..

"Extraordinary Strength:
Pun-Pun's strength score base is, at any given time, at an amount as high as he desires."

If you wanna house-rule out the non-ubercheesey method, that will come into play.

Epiphanis
2007-04-08, 12:34 PM
After reading this thread, I had to haul out my old WWPPD? avatar.

EvilElitest
2007-04-08, 08:58 PM
Though i don't like his playing style, i would not compare Logic Ninja's guide to Pun-Pun, because some people can still have fun that way, while Pun-Pun takes all the fun out of everything. ALso Logic Ninja's guide is a rather nice read, not my style but nicly done
from,
EE

Daracaex
2007-04-09, 12:30 AM
What does Pun-pun mean to me?

"I'm losing my hair," Tom bawled.

F.H. Zebedee
2007-04-09, 01:23 AM
Pun Pun is to Kobold as:
A. Apple is to Tree.
B. Chuck Norris is to Human.
C. Road is to Map.
D. Gamer is to Dice.

Answer: B.

Ramza00
2007-04-09, 02:20 AM
Pun Pun is funny. It exists because of a couple of editing flaws and continues to exist because no sane person would allow it to be used in his or her campaign. Of course, anyone who thinks they can "beat" Pun-Pun is absolutely insane because Pun-Pun isn't something with published stats like the Tarrasque. Pun-Pun is the summation of every dirty trick ever discovered in D&D and any attempts to defeat it will only make it stronger as it'll incorporate those tricks into itself.
Actually you can beat pun pun. You beat him by ascending first, or by performing a set of actions that will prevent pun pun's asendance before pun pun ascends. That is the whole point of the omnificer, gaining infinite knowledge so you can learn of pun pun's eventual asscension and thus stopping it (by destroying all the sarruhk so a kobold can never use one to become pun pun, or asscending yourself to the rank of pun pun and rewriting existence)

Turcano
2007-04-09, 03:38 AM
"What did you see when you looked at him?"
"A kobold, nothing more."

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-09, 05:57 AM
Moving to roleplaying games: the Amber DRPG, while it has its flaws, isn't broken. Spirit of the Century isn't broken. Dogs in the Vineyard isn't broken. Wushu isn't broken. These games are also, incidentally, generally better for roleplaying than D&D.

Amber is broken if you read Warfare as it is presented in the book (a character with first rank Warfare cannot be beaten at anything, ever).

Spirit of the Century, I have not played.

Dogs in the Vineyard is as broken as all hell, because of the way that the Conflict, Escalation and Fallout rules work.

Ultimate DitV build: Take a Big, Excellent gun, and dump all of your Traits into things you can use immediately in the first "Raise" of any "Conflict". When the characters roll into town you say "That guy over there is the source of all the corruption in this town", then you shoot him in the head. You'll win the conflict, because you will be throwing literally everything you have at it. You will have removed all corruption from the town successfully because the GM is not allowed to "judge" your character's actions.

It's worse than Pun-Pun in many, many ways.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-09, 06:05 AM
What pun-pun means to me is that DnD is vastly inferior to Dogs in the Vineyard.

Why? Or, more precisely, how?

What about Pun-Pun demonstrates the superiority of a game about mormon witchhunters over a game about adventurers?

D&D breaks if you play it in bad faith. DitV breaks harder and faster if you play it in bad faith, and there's nothing the GM can do about it.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-04-09, 06:09 AM
The mere fact that pun-pun exist proves kobolds do too.

DitV has no kobolds.

Therefor, DitV is better than DnD.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-09, 06:15 AM
The mere fact that pun-pun exist proves kobolds do too.

DitV has no kobolds.

Therefor, DitV is better than DnD.

Firstly, you mean "requires" not "proves".

Secondly, there are no kobolds in Cyberpunk 2020 or Vampire. You picked /Dogs in the Vineyard/ for a reason, I was wondering why.

Thirdly, I still fail to see how the non-existence of Pun-Pun within a system makes it "better" than one in which Pun-Pun does exist, since the Mighty Kobold is a thought-experiment rather than anything which anybody has ever actually done.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-04-09, 06:19 AM
The fact is also that I love westerns. So DitV was the obvious choice.

I just don't like kobolds.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-09, 06:24 AM
The fact is also that I love westerns. So DitV was the obvious choice.

I just don't like kobolds.

Fair enough. You realise, of course, that "is closer to my personal preferences" and "is a better game" are not the same thing.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-04-09, 06:39 AM
Sure they are!

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s316/cthulhusleeps/fullbodydavidawesome.jpg

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 02:29 PM
Actually you can beat pun pun. You beat him by ascending first, or by performing a set of actions that will prevent pun pun's asendance before pun pun ascends. That is the whole point of the omnificer, gaining infinite knowledge so you can learn of pun pun's eventual asscension and thus stopping it (by destroying all the sarruhk so a kobold can never use one to become pun pun, or asscending yourself to the rank of pun pun and rewriting existence)
But you can achieve Pun-Pun within a minute of campaign start at level 1. Isn't the minimum level for the omnificer level 4?

Ramza00
2007-04-09, 02:33 PM
But you can achieve Pun-Pun within a minute of campaign start at level 1. Isn't the minimum level for the omnificer level 4?

If I recall the omnificer was made before Fiendish Codex I came out. The omnificer has been surpassed by a new version of pun pun.

It doesn't really matter anyway for while the omnificer was an attempt to stop pun pun, the fastest way to do so at the time was to become pun pun yourself. Thus the omnificer is just a different incarnation of pun pun.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-09, 02:52 PM
Amber is broken if you read Warfare as it is presented in the book (a character with first rank Warfare cannot be beaten at anything, ever).

Spirit of the Century, I have not played.

Dogs in the Vineyard is as broken as all hell, because of the way that the Conflict, Escalation and Fallout rules work.

Ultimate DitV build: Take a Big, Excellent gun, and dump all of your Traits into things you can use immediately in the first "Raise" of any "Conflict". When the characters roll into town you say "That guy over there is the source of all the corruption in this town", then you shoot him in the head. You'll win the conflict, because you will be throwing literally everything you have at it. You will have removed all corruption from the town successfully because the GM is not allowed to "judge" your character's actions.

It's worse than Pun-Pun in many, many ways.
Roleplaying games cannot possibly have unbroken rules;
They are meant, by design, to facilitate limitless scenarios; No set of rules could possibly allow limitless situations; and the steps you take to get close leave breaking points.

It's wrong for people to expect games that have to allow for infinite possibilities of player disires not to require player discretion as a limit.

Pun-Pun is a meme that's taken way too seriously.

Noneoyabizzness
2007-04-09, 03:00 PM
pun pun is a joy to Me. it shows what can happen when someone has all the books I do, and less of a life than I do to find these tricks.

it proves that in spite of all imperical evidence to the contrary, I have a life in some way shape or form. and that's friggin sweet.

waynethegame
2007-04-09, 06:41 PM
I agree with what someone else stated: Pun-Pun to me is the epitome of everything that's wrong with the game. The idea that you can pore through tons of books, spend hours crunching the numbers and come up with something that is legal by the rules, but breaks the spirit of the game into a million pieces and that relies on dubious interpretations and rules loopholes.

I know that Pun-Pun was never intended for actual play, but the fact remains that he's a shining example of what munchkins do to the game. Pun-Pun is the posterboy for the WotC Character Optimization forums, where people don't care about fun and "intent" of the rules, it's all about the exact wording and how you can use the exact way a rule is written to abuse the loopholes. I can't even visit those boards anymore because nearly every "trick" of their is through dubious interpretation of the rules based on the exact wording.

It really disgusts me, to be perfectly honest. The notion that people spend so much time crunching away the numbers and averages to come up with a "perfect combination" makes me sick.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 06:59 PM
None of it is "a dubious interpretation of the rules". They may ignore the intent but that is beside the point. It doesn't last on the CharOp boards if if is of dubious interpretation.

And if WoTC play tested anything or even just released the stuff to a select group of CharOp's people a month or so in advance they woudl get a much more balanced game.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-09, 07:20 PM
It really disgusts me, to be perfectly honest. The notion that people spend so much time crunching away the numbers and averages to come up with a "perfect combination" makes me sick.

Because... god forbid people have fun in a different way than you do?

KoDT69
2007-04-09, 07:26 PM
I think finding loopholes and contemplating one-shot scenario resolutions is just as fun as an actual game session. Especially considering that this can be done here on GitP forums while I'm at work. :smallbiggrin: I actually enjoy all the back-and-forth on rules and whatever. It helps develop your own tactics and knowledge at your game table. It's even more fun when you apply newly learned tactics in your game against unknowing players :smallamused:

EvilElitest
2007-04-09, 07:49 PM
None of it is "a dubious interpretation of the rules". They may ignore the intent but that is beside the point. It doesn't last on the CharOp boards if if is of dubious interpretation.

And if WoTC play tested anything or even just released the stuff to a select group of CharOp's people a month or so in advance they woudl get a much more balanced game.

But would the game be fun to others?
from,
EE

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-09, 07:56 PM
But would the game be fun to others?
from,
EE
Yeah. If you had the CharOp's board doing balance it woudl be fun for others.

martyboy74
2007-04-09, 08:03 PM
But would the game be fun to others?
from,
EE
Why wouldn't it? The only people who would like it would be the power-crazed munchkins, until they found the inevitable loopholes. Then they would be even happier for themselves.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-09, 08:09 PM
i changed my mind. Pun Pun means one thing and one thing only. That if the DM dosnt know how to say "No" the game might just get a little silly

lin_fusan
2007-04-09, 08:36 PM
Pun-Pun is the D&D version of Godwin's Law to me.

But seriously, Pun-Pun represents one end of the following hypothetical during-game discussion (based on personal experience):

:smallannoyed: (DM): No, I am not allowing that because that is not balanced.

:smallmad: (Player): But it is in the rules. And it's cool.

:smallannoyed: (DM): I'm the DM, I can see it breaking the game. And I make the rules.

:smallmad: (Player): I think you are being arbitrary against me. You are a bad DM.

:smallannoyed: (DM): And I think you are trying to break the game. You are a bad player.

Game is over. :smallsigh:

Pun-Pun is there to show that D&D, and any RPG, is a game of compromises. But unfortunately, everyone has a different conception of what compromise means.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-09, 09:20 PM
I reserve the right to make rocks fall onto my players at any given moment should a player get too uppity with arguing. I've only had to do it once, to a cohort. A warning shot.

h2doh
2007-04-09, 10:25 PM
paladin:He is justification for my righteous wrath, no, my righteous genocide against gnome-kind...
squire:kabolds-kind sir.
paladin:kabolds? those cute little things? are you sure?
squire:pun-pun, remember sir
paladin:of course, you sure I mean, you sure about that I mean, half-elves, ewwww....
squire:(damn bigot, can't even remember whose genocide he is planning today) kabolds sir.
paladin: Wright! Kabolds and Sarruhk, nastiest, evilist creatures in the multiverse! They all must DIE!!(draws sword and charges)

hand from the center of the multiverse (in true BATMAN style) TWHAP ZONK POW
palidin: ....we missed him didn't we?
squire: yes sir.
paladin: ....he has already ascended hasn't he?
squire: right again sir.
paladin: ...so....who do we hate now, who do we smite for the great, all-powerful pun-pun...

sorry, been thinking this since the beginning of the thread

Raistlin1040
2007-04-09, 10:27 PM
What does Pun-Pun mean to me? Death.

Telonius
2007-04-09, 11:22 PM
I agree with what someone else stated: Pun-Pun to me is the epitome of everything that's wrong with the game. The idea that you can pore through tons of books, spend hours crunching the numbers and come up with something that is legal by the rules, but breaks the spirit of the game into a million pieces and that relies on dubious interpretations and rules loopholes.

I know that Pun-Pun was never intended for actual play, but the fact remains that he's a shining example of what munchkins do to the game. Pun-Pun is the posterboy for the WotC Character Optimization forums, where people don't care about fun and "intent" of the rules, it's all about the exact wording and how you can use the exact way a rule is written to abuse the loopholes. I can't even visit those boards anymore because nearly every "trick" of their is through dubious interpretation of the rules based on the exact wording.

It really disgusts me, to be perfectly honest. The notion that people spend so much time crunching away the numbers and averages to come up with a "perfect combination" makes me sick.

Honestly, that part of CharOp doesn't bother me. If the munchkins weren't doing their thing on CharOp, they'd be doing the same thing in their debate club. Better to keep them there, where they'll do less damage. :smallbiggrin:

Matthew
2007-04-10, 03:35 PM
Also, I, uh, don't think he's some kind of Patron Saint of Gaming.
I'm pretty sure he's here, walking amongst us in a different guise...

Pun Pun doesn't describe anything that's wrong with D&D to me. There's nothing particularly wrong with the game; some of the people who play it, that might be a different story...