Ways to optimize a purely melee build

[Mr.Kraken]

So, we all know melee is underappreciated, underoptimized and underwhelming most of the time. With that in mind, how can you optimize a purely melee character as best as possible? Especially if he's a character with the mage-killer flavor, what would you do to make him not only able to fight well, but also able to resist those high-level, OP spells?

[Karl Aegis]

Straight Druid or Wizard with Prestige Classes. Cleric with Prestige Classes is also acceptable.

[(Un)Inspired]

Yeah Wizard/rainbow servant/sacred exorcist is probably as good as you're gonna get at melee.

[Troacctid]

The best ways to play a melee build are A. be a full caster and use magic to smash face or B. be an initiator and use maneuvers to smash face. If you want to be "Pure" melee, that rules out A, so go with B.

If you buy into the "I'll full attack with my BAB" system, you have already failed.

[Flickerdart]

What character level and optimization level are we talking here? Once you get past a certain point in each, the only chance a non-caster has against casters is to use magic items to try and also be a caster. The higher optimization, the earlier this happens.

The best way to defend yourself against spells is by blocking line of effect. Earthglide (from a Paladin ACF) or burrow (from Mineral Warrior) is not a bad way of doing this, but spellcasters love to fly. The second best way is to take Leadership and have a counterspell-focused caster who follows you around and prevents the enemy from doing things, but at this point you've just off-loaded your spells on another creature.

If you're taking all those Mage Slayer and whatever feats, and spending your gold on Rings of Counterspell and Spellblades, you're setting yourself up for failure as soon as you fight anything that isn't a low-op caster - other melee creatures, even if they have a dash of magic, will crush you like a bug because they used their options to be good at what they're good at, and your specialized defenses won't save you.

[Eldariel]

The best ways to play a melee build are A. be a full caster and use magic to smash face or B. be an initiator and use maneuvers to smash face. If you want to be "Pure" melee, that rules out A, so go with B.

If you buy into the "I'll full attack with my BAB" system, you have already failed.

Meh, a well-built charger can be effective (far as killing things goes anyways) while falling under that, just merely being tremendously boring to play in combat-heavy campaigns.

[Demidos]

Get evasion and mettle and boost saves to the extreme (Something along the lines of Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard or perhaps hexblade in there as well) to make you immune to targetted saves

Get extreme range on your attacks (40 foot threatened reach is pretty nice by stacking feats/size/reach weapons, its fairly doable)

Prevent them from casting inside or escaping your reach (mageslayer/that one stance (wall of blades or something?) and the knight class' ability to make all terrain within reach difficult/tripping/Staggering strike)

Prevent them from targetting you from outside your range (some way of hiding, e.g. primordial and half giant templates (+1 LA total) get you invis at will, and the dark template gets you Hide in Plain Sight and some sweet stat bonuses).

Of course, the easiest way to do this is via partial gestalt, as you can get your feats on one side and the nifty class features on the other. Something like

Feat-Rogue 4/Hexblade 3/ -- 2*/Feat Rogue 11 // Paladin of Tyranny 4/Knight 3/Blackguard 2/Fighter 11
*(PRCs take both sides on a gestalt)


Is pretty easy to understand
--the rogue/fighter are for bonus feats galore
--the paladin/blackguard/hexblade are for charisma to saves
--and the knight 3 is for that nifty difficult terrain ability.

And with even a mediocre charisma makes you practically immune to any spell requiring a save. With a decent charisma you can even go ahead and swap out the paladin cha-to-saves for an ACF that gives you cha-to-AC.

Some more fiddly optimization can be done to let you reroll 1s on saves (planar touchstone domain or luck feats), make you impossible to spot (+10/+30 items of competence to hide/MS, or a warlock dip for effectively obscuring mist at will), extra templates (Phrenic and half fey are both solid and give you a large amount of versatility outside Move-attack combos, though it does not play nice with Mageslayer), sudden stunning and stunning surge to let you stun on most attacks for the day, along with some item optimization to get you a cloak of the underdark (immediate action teleports to break LOE), roller skates that allow you to 10 ft step instead of 5 ft step (dnd web enhancement), slippers of battledancing to get cha to hit and damage, anklets of translocation to get 10 ft teleports as a swift, etc etc etc

[TheCrowing1432]

Full Initiator Uber Charger with Flight.

[Mr.Kraken]

Sorry guys, didn't make myself clear enough. When I said purely melee, I meant no spellcasting. The optimization level varies with the players and the DM. The players tend to be middle-level optimizers, but the DM is a low optimizer, so there won't be much optimization on the enemies' part. I'd like to avoid ToB, because the DM is not familiar with it, but gestalt is available.

[(Un)Inspired]

Get evasion and mettle and boost saves to the extreme (Something along the lines of Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard or perhaps hexblade in there as well) to make you immune to targetted saves

Get extreme range on your attacks (40 foot threatened reach is pretty nice by stacking feats/size/reach weapons, its fairly doable)

Prevent them from casting inside or escaping your reach (mageslayer/that one stance (wall of blades or something?) and the knight class' ability to make all terrain within reach difficult/tripping/Staggering strike)

Prevent them from targetting you from outside your range (some way of hiding, e.g. primordial and half giant templates (+1 LA total) get you invis at will, and the dark template gets you Hide in Plain Sight and some sweet stat bonuses).

I'm not sure how any of this enables you to Mage-kill a caster with a dozen contingent celeritys, truesight, a flock of Solars (is a flock the right word?), and foresight.

EDIT: just saw the OPs comment. If gestalt is available and you want absolutely NO spellcasting(probably including psionics right?) and no ToB; I guess Scout//fighter with that training dummy that let's you take 10' steps is as good as any.

[Flickerdart]

a flock of Solars (is a flock the right word?).
I believe a group of angels is supposed to be a Chorus.


Full Initiator Uber Charger with Flight.
Blindly charging at a caster is a great way to waste your turn (if he Abrupt Jaunts away once you stop your charge) or die horribly (if he actually took initiative first and put an Invisible Prismatic Wall in your way).


the DM is a low optimizer, so there won't be much optimization on the enemies' part.
Then you don't need to be a mage-killer. Low-op wizards stand around throwing fireballs, and are preposterously easy to kill. If your sources are restricted, look up the Horizon Tripper; it'll make you fairly versatile while still keeping you as the boring full-attack-forever melee guy you wanted.

[(Un)Inspired]

I believe a group of angels is supposed to be a Chorus.


Oh yeah, duh. That's a brainfart on my part.

[Greenish]

a flock of Solars (is a flock the right word?)Host of solars, I'd guess.

[(Un)Inspired]

Then you don't need to be a mage-killer. Low-op wizards stand around throwing fireballs, and are preposterously easy to kill. If your sources are restricted, look up the Horizon Tripper; it'll make you fairly versatile while still keeping you as the boring full-attack-forever melee guy you wanted.

Is horizon tripper good because it can cast D. Door? This build demands zero casting.

[Demidos]

I'm not sure how any of this enables you to Mage-kill a caster with a dozen contingent celeritys, truesight, a flock of Solars (is a flock the right word?), and foresight.

EDIT: just saw the OPs comment. If gestalt is available and you want absolutely NO spellcasting(probably including psionics right?) and no ToB; I guess Scout//fighter with that training dummy that let's you take 10' steps is as good as any.

Okay, well, its probably not going to get you past a caster spamming/abusing* the likely-single most powerful spell in the game (gate) and several of the next most broken. That's why casters are considered to be better than mundanes.

I will note hide works regardless of the truesight, and the solars are also unlikely to see you (at least till you begin attacking).

[Nightraiderx]

Mundane only, then I suggest a Barbarian//Ranger/scout gish.

You charge, you have skills, you can hide! you can hunt your enemies down using the magical favored enemy trait.
Magical enemies take full bront of your skirmish damage. rage at things for bonuses to will saves. add runscarred beserker for an amf field to run/fly around in.
high level scouts get some nice blindsight and a freedom of movement effect on top of evasion.

[OldTrees1]

Sorry guys, didn't make myself clear enough. When I said purely melee, I meant no spellcasting. The optimization level varies with the players and the DM. The players tend to be middle-level optimizers, but the DM is a low optimizer, so there won't be much optimization on the enemies' part. I'd like to avoid ToB, because the DM is not familiar with it, but gestalt is available.

Well contrary to the popular "wisdom" above, Full Attack based versatile melee combat is viable. All you need is multipliers. Now this can either be in the arms race of damage multipliers or by getting more out of each action. I prefer the later.

Attacks of Opportunity:
A boosted Dexterity combined with something to trigger AoOs(Karmic Strike/Robiliar's Gambit and/or a Reach weapon) more than doubles the number of attack actions you can make in a round. This can be doubled again with the feat Double Hit although that requires wielding 2 weapons.

On X triggers (nice when chained together):
On hit -> Bullrush [Knockback]
On bullrush -> Damage [Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2]
On Trip -> attack [Improved Trip]
On hit -> Trip [Knock-down]
On hit -> action denial [Boomerang Daze, Three Mountain, Dire Flail Smash, Staggering Strike]

Hit multiple targets per attack:
Warhulk 4 makes each melee attack(including AoOs) hit 3 squares(better than 3 targets)
War Mind 5 does the same but limited to 2 squares

So between a mixture of these options you can make many tactical decisions per turn from a short list(move foes, trap foes, stun foes, and of course damage foes).


However that is not the end of melee versatility optimization. You also need to be able to handle diverse environments including aerial combat, stealth, and social combat. So you will want to get Flight, Special Senses, and Skills.

Flight:
Dragonborn(a +0LA transformation) and Raptorian(a +0LA race) both gain flight.
2 2 length feat chains can grant Flight(Improved Dragon Wings or Starspawn)

Special Senses usually come from cheap magic items like the Scout's Headband for 3400gp.

Skills are harder for melee to come by. However it is rather easy for a Martial Rogue(lose Sneak Attack, gain Bonus Feats).


Gestalt of course makes it so much easier since you can cram 2 levels worth of class features in per level (and yes, there are GOOD feats that are on par with a level's worth of non caster class features).


So I would probably Gestalt Martial Rogue with melee dips like Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem, Wolf Totem, Mountain Rage) 2, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher), Martial Monk 2, and Psychic Warrior 2 / War Mind 5.

[Flickerdart]

I will note hide works regardless of the truesight, and the solars are also unlikely to see you (at least till you begin attacking).
Solars have quite a good Spot - +32 is nothing to sneer at, especially if there are multiples of them and they all get checks. Dragons are also good Gate candidates, and pack Blindsense which is trickier to block (there's Darkstalker, but then there's Touchsight, Mindsight, and Lifesense).


Is horizon tripper good because it can cast D. Door? This build demands zero casting.
Dimension Door is one of its handiest powers, but it's an SLA, not a spell.

[sideswipe]

squeeze feats to the max, use the ubercharger feats, the trip feats and the AoO and reach extending feats. use classes that give feats/maneuvers/ bonuses to these things.

if you get somewhere to charge and attack everything within 100ft, then have about 10 AoO and hit everyone who comes within 100ft, knocking them down and hitting them again and again and again until they die. plus being able to avoid any damage and use this against anything.

without resorting to casting this is the benchmark you should be looking at. get enough damage on each attack to kill an equivalent level CR monster with each hit (or two with knockdown) and a bunch of AoO's.

[Mr.Kraken]

if you get somewhere to charge and attack everything within 100ft..

How can you get that?

[AvatarVecna]

So, we all know melee is underappreciated, underoptimized and underwhelming most of the time. With that in mind, how can you optimize a purely melee character as best as possible? Especially if he's a character with the mage-killer flavor, what would you do to make him not only able to fight well, but also able to resist those high-level, OP spells?

Ultimately, the only way to combat magic is with other magic; without magic, you don't have ways of dealing with every possible trick a full spellcaster can bring to bear. Even if, in the extremely unlikely event that you manage to sneak up on a mage and kill them before they can get all their defenses up, it'll only work once, because the other powerful mages of the world will hear about your successful assassination (that was mostly due to luck and good timing), and will proceed to drown you in tarrasque Ice Assassins or something similarly ridiculous--simply because they can, and it costs them close enough to nothing to qualify.

The closest I've seen to a mundane mage-killer is a properly built Pathfinder Barbarian, taking advantage of the various anti-magic rage powers, and even that's not much. It's only when it's combined with other great class abilities via gestalt that it gets any real traction; even then, gestalting barbarian with another non-caster is still going to be less effective a mage-killer than if it gestalted with a caster class.

So...good luck coming up with a 3.5 only mage-killer!

[sideswipe]

How can you get that?

well for a start reach weapons do not increase your reach they double it (or in the case of meteor hammer they triple it)

if you can get colossal size and have a meteor hammer you already get to 90.

this link (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8774.0) is to the tripping handbook which has a bunch of ways to increase your reach and some are really easy to get,

if you take inhuman reach and deformity (tall), then long arm graft and warshaper 3 in the build as a half minotaur changling who has enlarge person (easiest way) then...
you have a 30ft reach standard with 35ft when you attack and use a meteor hammer from dragon magazine and you get a reach of 105ft without really pumping it with magic items of spells that give larger sizes.

this requires 4 feats, a +1 LA, 3 levels in warshaper and your race. you have easily enough levels and feats to gain ubercharger and tripping feats (passive way monk, feat rogue and fighter are useful).

[Mr.Kraken]

well for a start reach weapons do not increase your reach they double it (or in the case of meteor hammer they triple it)

if you can get colossal size and have a meteor hammer you already get to 90.

this link (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8774.0) is to the tripping handbook which has a bunch of ways to increase your reach and some are really easy to get,

if you take inhuman reach and deformity (tall), then long arm graft and warshaper 3 in the build as a half minotaur changling who has enlarge person (easiest way) then...
you have a 30ft reach standard with 35ft when you attack and use a meteor hammer from dragon magazine and you get a reach of 105ft without really pumping it with magic items of spells that give larger sizes.

this requires 4 feats, a +1 LA, 3 levels in warshaper and your race. you have easily enough levels and feats to gain ubercharger and tripping feats (passive way monk, feat rogue and fighter are useful).

Wow, that's... interesting. How would that character look? Colossal deformed man-bull with elongated arms? Sacrificing aesthetics for optimization, huh... that's something I've never done before. I try not to make my characters too grotesque, ugly or outright strange, even if it's the best option mathematically speaking. I usually want my characters to look cool, so I never choose anything that would take that coolness away and replace it with something... extraordinary.

Stupid, I know.

[Necroticplague]

Coming up with a build that gives you the damage to one-shot anyone of remotely similar HD isn't horrifically difficult. Even without gestalt and off the top of my head, Lycanthrope (Large Sewerm)7/Half-Goristro4/Dungeoncrasher6 would have the sheer damage potential to turn anything into smears against the ground. The problem is that magic defences are so strong, there's no way he can guarantee getting the needed attack off, unless he's a caster himself. Just to make sure divinations don't work, he's have to be Vecna-blooded, and he still has a lot of problems. Not even overly specific ones, like Banishing him, but general solve-alls like 'Stone shape a wall around him while I start piling on various clouds and other persistent AoE to greet him when he comes out'. Assuming the spellcasters and melee are similarly optimized, its a pointless battle (except at the very lowest levels, in which all fights are pretty much chance in either direction).

Also, in a more general answer: both for being melee, and in gestalt, templates are your friends. Half-goristro makes you Huge, with a sizable bonus in stregnth. Were-sewerm lets you qualify for the awesome Warshaper, along with a similar bonus (maybe better, my memory grows rusty) to STR. Mineralized Warrior gives you a burrow speed, which lets you close in on enemies (since the ground will break line of effect to you). Feral gives a very tasty bonus to natural armor, as well as some good special qualities (and special attacks, if you have RHD). Lolth-touched gives a very good ECl/stat boost ratio, and throws in fear immunity to boot.

[sideswipe]

Wow, that's... interesting. How would that character look? Colossal deformed man-bull with elongated arms? Sacrificing aesthetics for optimization, huh... that's something I've never done before. I try not to make my characters too grotesque, ugly or outright strange, even if it's the best option mathematically speaking. I usually want my characters to look cool, so I never choose anything that would take that coolness away and replace it with something... extraordinary.

Stupid, I know.

it would actually only be huge, if you obtained colossal you would have a 150ft reach. there are many ways to increase reach more, but these are the easy and good ones.

[Karl Aegis]

Wow, that's... interesting. How would that character look? Colossal deformed man-bull with elongated arms? Sacrificing aesthetics for optimization, huh... that's something I've never done before. I try not to make my characters too grotesque, ugly or outright strange, even if it's the best option mathematically speaking. I usually want my characters to look cool, so I never choose anything that would take that coolness away and replace it with something... extraordinary.

Stupid, I know.

You're playing a mundane character vs someone outright immune to most everything you can possibly do. You have to be a horrible monstrosity just to compete, if compete is even the right word. You can boost your numbers however high you want, it still doesn't change the fact that your opponent is still outright immune.

[Doctor Awkward]

Aside from the Mageslayer Feat chain, an Antimagic Torc, and a Rod of Absorption are going to be your best tools for killing wizards purely as a melee.

[ILM]

I believe a group of angels is supposed to be a Chorus.
Choir actually, if I want to be pedantic (and I do! :smallbiggrin:)


The more I play at building high-level beatsticks, the more I think optimizing them means optimizing WBL. Against an optimized full caster played smart and shooting to kill, you're not going to make it; however, against a reasonable opponent it's probably doable.

If you look at all the stuff you need to survive (flight, immunities, senses, etc.), you'll find that printed books generally offer at least one item that gives you a continuous (if not Ex) effect. Unfortunately, they are generally prohibitively expensive. As a result, my high-level characters/thought experiments generally have a +19 mod to UMD and a custom staff. Said custom staff has one charge per day of a number of useful long-term buff spells (or persistent low-level spells). Right now my standard staff costs a bit less than 140,000 gp and gets you, at CL20:
- immunity to possession and mind-control
- immunity to sleep, stun, crit, poison, paralysis, flanking
- 50% miss chance
- low-light vision and darkvision 60 ft
- fly speed 120 ft (perfect)
- one extra attack per round
- +1 (unnamed), +2 (competence), +2 (morale), +3 (luck), +5 (enhancement) to attack
- +3 (luck), +5 (enhancement) to damage
- +5 (enhancement), +4 (shield) to AC
- +6 (resistance), +5 (morale) to all saves
- +2 (morale) to all skills
- Scrying detection
I also add about 6,000 gp for a permanencied See Invisibility, and a Scout's Headband for that emergency True Sight. I avoid Mind Blank due to it's interfering with morale bonuses, and the fact I find saves on the order of +25 to +30 to be sufficient, but you can add it on for another 12,000 gp if you like.

So, pros: cost effective, broad set of buffs. Cons: still a lot of money I guess, DM-dependent (custom magic item), vulnerable to dispels. You'll want at least a Spellblade keyed to Greater Dispel.

If you don't mind some more cheese, here are a couple additional thoughts (I personally don't use them but YMMV):
- metamagic reducers may let you add persistent spells of levels higher than 3. 4 in particular has a few awesome options like Death Ward and Freedom of Movement.
- custom magic item rules also have this little nugget that says that if you slap on restrictions to the item you can reduce its cost. Requires ranks in a particular skill? -10%. Requires a specific class or alignment? -30%. Do they stack - who knows?
- "An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item." -> enjoy trawling through all your books to find the lowest possible level version of a spell.

[Arbane]

I'm not sure how any of this enables you to Mage-kill a caster with a dozen contingent celeritys, truesight, a flock of Solars (is a flock the right word?), and foresight.


Since Tippy there is ALSO astrally projected from their demiplane, they're unkillable anyway unless the OP is playing a Teramach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286983-3-5-Base-Class-quot-I-want-to-live-inside-a-castle-built-of-your-agony!-quot), so it's kind of moot.

If you want to kill Tippy, you play another Tippy or GTFO. And be prepared for a looooooooooong game of chess ending in an instakill. Thankfully, the OP has said his GM and players are not Tippy, which means there is still room for a snivelling peasant non-full-caster to be an adventurer.

[Mr.Kraken]

So, basically high-level D&D is a spellcasters-only game?

[Lerondiel]

Well contrary to the popular "wisdom" above, Full Attack based versatile melee combat is viable. All you need is multipliers. Now this can either be in the arms race of damage multipliers or by getting more out of each action. I prefer the later.

Attacks of Opportunity:
A boosted Dexterity combined with something to trigger AoOs(Karmic Strike/Robiliar's Gambit and/or a Reach weapon) more than doubles the number of attack actions you can make in a round. This can be doubled again with the feat Double Hit although that requires wielding 2 weapons.

On X triggers (nice when chained together):
On hit -> Bullrush [Knockback]
On bullrush -> Damage [Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2]
On Trip -> attack [Improved Trip]
On hit -> Trip [Knock-down]
On hit -> action denial [Boomerang Daze, Three Mountain, Dire Flail Smash, Staggering Strike]

Hit multiple targets per attack:
Warhulk 4 makes each melee attack(including AoOs) hit 3 squares(better than 3 targets)
War Mind 5 does the same but limited to 2 squares

So between a mixture of these options you can make many tactical decisions per turn from a short list(move foes, trap foes, stun foes, and of course damage foes).


However that is not the end of melee versatility optimization. You also need to be able to handle diverse environments including aerial combat, stealth, and social combat. So you will want to get Flight, Special Senses, and Skills.

Flight:
Dragonborn(a +0LA transformation) and Raptorian(a +0LA race) both gain flight.
2 2 length feat chains can grant Flight(Improved Dragon Wings or Starspawn)

Special Senses usually come from cheap magic items like the Scout's Headband for 3400gp.

Skills are harder for melee to come by. However it is rather easy for a Martial Rogue(lose Sneak Attack, gain Bonus Feats).


Gestalt of course makes it so much easier since you can cram 2 levels worth of class features in per level (and yes, there are GOOD feats that are on par with a level's worth of non caster class features).


So I would probably Gestalt Martial Rogue with melee dips like Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem, Wolf Totem, Mountain Rage) 2, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher), Martial Monk 2, and Psychic Warrior 2 / War Mind 5.

Great tactical breakdown...maybe just add grapple

[Karl Aegis]

So, basically high-level D&D is a spellcasters-only game?

If your objective was more reasonable we could help you more. A high level mage isn't going to die unless it wants you to kill it.

If your request was something like, "Hey guys, I need a 20 level build that can kill a guy with 1197 hp, touch AC of 20, Flat-footed AC of 50 and AC 50, and DR 15/Epic and Cold Iron in one round, preferably using a full attack. It has blindsight 120ft and mindsight 100ft" we could give you something.

[Necroticplague]

So, basically high-level D&D is a spellcasters-only game?

Pretty much. When you take things like Hide Life, Astral projection, Planar Binding (for nightmares), Craft Contingency, Various transformation spells, and hard debuffs into account, the only reason melee stays relevant is because spellcasters don't feel like going full-out.

[Requiem_Jeer]

So, basically high-level D&D is a spellcasters-only game?

To be more precise, high-optimization D&D is a spellcaster's game. Casters have enough tools that it is literally impossible for non-magical means to overcome them. However, these means are indeed high-level for the most part, and further, non-magical means still have their place if you have friends who do have magical means. Being able to project, infinitely, simple overwhelming force vastly frees up the resources of the casters, allowing them to apply their magic where magic is necessary, instead of using it for everything and exhausting themselves.

D&D is a team game, and while some DMs don't run their campaigns in the right way to make the casters feel like they should conserve their earth-shattering power, others do and that's important.

[OldTrees1]

Great tactical breakdown...maybe just add grapple

*doh* I always forget that one since the relevant feat is in "It's Hot Outside" aka Sandstorm.

Add in
Triggers:
On Hit -> Grapple (Scorpion Grasp feat)

When chained together it can look like this:
Enemy swings at you. You take the blow but return with a swipe of your own. Your blow connects rendering the opponent staggered, you grab them and they lose their balance. On their way down you wrestle further to pin your foe to the ground.

Or like this:
Enemy swings at you. You take the blow but return with a swipe of your own. Your hit pounds him into the ground. As he bounces from the impact you hit him again invoking nausea as you bat him away to crash into a corner of the room.

The best part is now those are options for your normal attacks so you can do them as each of your attacks in a Full Attack. Batting aside the BBEG's lieutenants while you pin him to the ground beneath you sounds like a neat turn to me.


So, basically high-level D&D is a spellcasters-only game?

Not at all, high optimization is a spellcaster only game but high-level at medium optimization is anyone's game.

[Eldariel]

Not at all, high optimization is a spellcaster only game but high-level at medium optimization is anyone's game.

Even that's not true, it's just that casters of "equal" level are way stronger than their non-caster counterparts. Say...a level 10 caster has no trouble adventuring with and dealing with the same problems level 20 warriors would face and thus a level 10 caster + level 20 warriors party is pretty reasonable. You can kinda mix'n'match if you feel like it, or throw tons of treasure at non-casters or whatever.

But you can run whatever and full casters are way stronger across the board if their players use the strong PHB spells, but you can engineer non-casters for certain niches to keep them...not relevant, but if casters opt to conserve their power, non-casters can fill in. Just make sure the casters aren't going too deep into building their own undead/simulacrum/called/effigy/whatever armies if you want to include non-casters; an army tends to make non-casters unnecessary since the armies do whatever grunt work would normally be handled by non-casters.


And just because a caster with Shapechange can complete most quests without ever casting a spell doesn't mean they can't let their party do that stuff instead. But my own preference is, if casters are of the level where they have access to level 7+ spell that every player have world-affecting powers; else the games can become quite boring for the walking beatsticks that don't really get to contribute to anything but the actual turn or two of combat.

[Mr.Kraken]

Sorry for the philosophical question out of the blue, but... is this way of playing fun? I mean the high-level OP, be god and screw everything else-way. You'll break the DM's world, you'll be vastly superior to other players, which will take away their fun, you'll be ready for anything, so nothing will constitute a challenge for you anymore. Maybe people can have fun with "God Wizards", but I just can't see how...

[Karl Aegis]

Sorry for the philosophical question out of the blue, but... is this way of playing fun? I mean the high-level OP, be god and screw everything else-way. You'll break the DM's world, you'll be vastly superior to other players, which will take away their fun, you'll be ready for anything, so nothing will constitute a challenge for you anymore. Maybe people can have fun with "God Wizards", but I just can't see how...

It is certainly better than roll, hit AC, deal hit point damage. All of the cool abilities are in different subsystems other than melee combat. Spells just happen to be the most powerful.

[OldTrees1]

Sorry for the philosophical question out of the blue, but... is this way of playing fun? I mean the high-level OP, be god and screw everything else-way. You'll break the DM's world, you'll be vastly superior to other players, which will take away their fun, you'll be ready for anything, so nothing will constitute a challenge for you anymore. Maybe people can have fun with "God Wizards", but I just can't see how...

Some find it fun, but I personally do not. I am much more a fan of the "Capable Hero" style than the "Omnipotent Hero" style or the "Struggling Hero" style. Thus I aim for Mid OP rather than High or Low OP.


It is certainly better than roll, hit AC, deal hit point damage. All of the cool abilities are in different subsystems other than melee combat. Spells just happen to be the most powerful.
Only Low OP is restricted to that strawman. Whether Mid OP's melee abilities (examples in post 35) count as cool or not depends on the person.

[Necroticplague]

Sorry for the philosophical question out of the blue, but... is this way of playing fun? I mean the high-level OP, be god and screw everything else-way. You'll break the DM's world, you'll be vastly superior to other players, which will take away their fun, you'll be ready for anything, so nothing will constitute a challenge for you anymore. Maybe people can have fun with "God Wizards", but I just can't see how...

Er, God Wizard doesn't make you appear vastly superior. God Wizard refers to buffing your friends sky high, debuffing your enemies through the ground, and controlling the battlefield. To a casual observer, the wizard is barely doing anything while his teammates clean up house.

Also, having the ability to trivialize some things means you can skip the boring parts of the story and get to the interesting parts. Why spend several hours slogging through a dungeon, fighting enemies of no real plot relevance or interest, when you can [ghostform, ethereal jaunt, greater teleport, earth glide] get straight to the climatic boss fight?

As for the DMs world: if something is capable of being done within the world, I'd expect that the world already takes it into account. So I can't break it by going all-out. Unless you're saying I'm the only one who ever discovered both Scrying and Greater Teleporting, I'd expect the world to take scry-and-die into account. You can be challenged, it just takes something that's not just 'insert bigger numbers' (which is a boring way to ramp up the challenge anyway). Its a fundamentally different genre than the normal DnD assumption, but it can still work. Instead of playing Conan, you're playing Superman, where you have to use your wits to overcome great challenges, and the objectives are rarely lives (because death is cheap). Even if Superman can't be killed, he can still fail to protect Metropolis.

[Troacctid]

I want to unlock new abilities when I level up, not just continue doing the same thing I was doing at level 1 but with an extra +2 on the roll. Marginal numerical increases are totally like the lamest thing. If that's all you're going to get, it's like you're not even leveling up at all.

That's how non-casting melee classes are designed and it's why they suck.

As an entirely separate problem, 8th and 9th level spells are just ridiculously unbalanced and strictly better than anything else you can be doing at those levels. It doesn't even really matter if you do stupid Tippy stuff. Just pick some random 9th level spell and use it exactly as the game designers intended, and you will instantly be better than a Barbarian 20. Look at Summon Nature's Ally. Your Druid can have Toughness in every single one of her feat slots, never go into wild shape, dismiss her animal companion, and prepare nothing but heightened cantrips in all her spell slots every day, and she'll still be able to summon 1d4+1 freaking tyrannosaurs at the drop of a hat. Meanwhile, you are a guy with a greatsword. Have fun.

[Doctor Awkward]

Sorry for the philosophical question out of the blue, but... is this way of playing fun? I mean the high-level OP, be god and screw everything else-way. You'll break the DM's world, you'll be vastly superior to other players, which will take away their fun, you'll be ready for anything, so nothing will constitute a challenge for you anymore. Maybe people can have fun with "God Wizards", but I just can't see how...

In short: If you succeed at it, yes.

The thing that most non-optimizers don't get about the process is it's not just about having a powerful build. You need to know how to use that build. You can have the greatest Conjurer/Incantatrix/Master Specialist/Archmage ever with free metamagics, Uncanny Forethought, and a super imp familiar to watch your back, but it still requires a lot of ingenuity on the part of the player for that character to actually accomplish what the player wants during the actual game.

The dirty secret of Playing GOD is that you can never be prepared for every situation, so the challenge at that point is to look at the tools you have in front of you and apply them in the most effective way you can to solve the problem. You need to know the best way to gather the information you will need to most readily prepare yourself for what you will be facing, and what to do if all your plans suddenly go tits-up.

The satisfaction comes from watching a meticulously thought out plan work perfectly, or successfully adapt your strategy on the fly to suit the change in circumstance.

[sideswipe]

In short: If you succeed at it, yes.

The thing that most non-optimizers don't get about the process is it's not just about having a powerful build. You need to know how to use that build. You can have the greatest Conjurer/Incantatrix/Master Specialist/Archmage ever with free metamagics, Uncanny Forethought, and a super imp familiar to watch your back, but it still requires a lot of ingenuity on the part of the player for that character to actually accomplish what the player wants during the actual game.

The dirty secret of Playing GOD is that you can never be prepared for every situation, so the challenge at that point is to look at the tools you have in front of you and apply them in the most effective way you can to solve the problem. You need to know the best way to gather the information you will need to most readily prepare yourself for what you will be facing, and what to do if all your plans suddenly go tits-up.

The satisfaction comes from watching a meticulously thought out plan work perfectly, or successfully adapt your strategy on the fly to suit the change in circumstance.

the other side of the same coin is its frustrating to only have one trick like hit with axe. especially when hit with axe does nothing and you just watch something bad happen with no hope of effecting it.

[Greenish]

Sorry for the philosophical question out of the blue, but... is this way of playing fun? I mean the high-level OP, be god and screw everything else-way.Probably not, at least to the people you play with.

It's also not the only way to play high-OP. You're not destroying the DM's world if said world was made with high-OP in mind, and you'll not be vastly superior to other players if they're also doing high-OP. It doesn't have to be destructive like you've framed it.


Also "God wizard" is usually used to refer to a specific way of playing wizards which has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

[Izmister]

I think of magic as the new way to warfare, it revolutionizes the industry. And (in one way or the other) everyone can use it. So pretty much Magic=Guns. Screwed up the Medieval world then too.
So there is no way around it, FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE, OR BE FOREVER FORGOTTEN UNDER THE BLOOD AND GORE OF THE BATTLEFIELD! :smallredface:

[Eldariel]

Sorry for the philosophical question out of the blue, but... is this way of playing fun? I mean the high-level OP, be god and screw everything else-way. You'll break the DM's world, you'll be vastly superior to other players, which will take away their fun, you'll be ready for anything, so nothing will constitute a challenge for you anymore. Maybe people can have fun with "God Wizards", but I just can't see how...


Probably not, at least to the people you play with.

It's also not the only way to play high-OP. You're not destroying the DM's world if said world was made with high-OP in mind, and you'll not be vastly superior to other players if they're also doing high-OP. It doesn't have to be destructive like you've framed it.


Also "God wizard" is usually used to refer to a specific way of playing wizards which has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

This right here: the whole point of every bit of optimization insight is that every part of the world be optimized to the same standards. If the whole party is made of high optimization characters and the world is high optimization (honestly, most of the stuff the less experienced people call "high optimization" is still fairly tame), the game is downright awesome. Just what you'd expect a game of powerful magi to be like, really. The players can actually physically and metaphysically alter the world should they want to, but so can everyone else which leads to a very fluid world and very engaging rivalries. It's also easy to give high op players agency; they can actually lead their own agenda in multiverse-scale conflicts.

The primary problem is, a DM has to be quite experienced to pull it off and of course, it's a lot of work to prepare for games like that (but proper DMing always is).

[Emperor Tippy]

So, basically high-level D&D is a spellcasters-only game?

Yes/No/Kinda Sorta

You gain power in D&D through two real methods. Method one is to, essentially, be born with that power. This is where you get things with lots of racial hit dice and LA, with the lower end being things like were-bears and the higher end being things like the Ulitharid (Lords of Madness) with its 12 racial HD and +9 LA. Most iconic monsters/enemies/NPC's fall into this catagory as well (dragons, demons, devils, angles, outsiders in general, etc.).

Method two is the one that applies to most PC's and that is to claw and scrape your way to the top of the heap by risking your sanity, life, and soul time and again to gain more power. Reaching level 20 requires, on average, about 260 equal ECL encounters. Now death becomes nothing more than a minor inconvenience eventually but that is around level 10 or so (and it is pretty much totally permanent before level 6 or so). The vast, vast, majority of those who pursue the path of the PC (being an adventurer) die before that point is reached. Ask anyone who has played D&D a lot how often they see characters die before level 3 (or would die without DM fudging) because of nothing beyond a bad dice roll or two.

PC's already gain a number of advantages; the DM doesn't usually drop massively powerful random encounters on you, the party is made up of multiple skilled members often designed to work together and with unusual party cohesion, etc. And yet they will still often die to a single mistake, to a single bad dice roll, to a single miscommunication.

As a general rule, anyone who makes it to even level 10 via the adventurers path is either an incredible cunning, ruthless, paranoid bastard, has the luck of the devil, or has active divine intervention on their side.

Interrelated with that issue is something that is often overlooked; PC's have power.
A relatively poorly built Fighter 10 is still a solid match for an entire bandit camp or royal bodyguard. They can walk through and personally slaughter entire towns in open combat. Well built specialists (much less casters) are even more extreme. If you have power then you are of relevance to the great game, either as a player or as a playing piece. Nations, guilds, cabals, other individuals with power; they will all actively account for your PC's as individuals. Do your PC's regularly receive quests from an Archmage of note (read a level 15-20 Wizard)? Well then that Archmage's enemies will account for them and may well attempt to interfere with them as nothing more than a minor attempt to weaken the Archmage's power base.

The end result of all of this is that when you make it to high level D&D (assuming that the DM is not actively shaping the world to achieve a different outcome), you have made it there by playing the Great Game at the highest of levels and excelling at it. If you didn't then you would have been enslaved or destroyed already. Anything but the most exotic and convoluted weaknesses of your character are things that the PC has already overcome or they would have already been exploited.

What all of this means is that what you want in high level D&D is options, the more exotic and varied the better. In D&D that means spellcasting. Compare even a relatively crappy high level combat focused wizard with a fighter. At the end of the day a fighters ability to do harm is all variations of "i hit it with my sword". The wizard has Fireball (and with Energy Substitution or the Mastery of Elements High Arcana from the Archmage PrC that Fireball can do damage from any of the energy types), A save or die targeting the Fort save (something like Finger of Death), a Save or Loose targeting the Will save (something like Dominate Monster), a method to create a companion to fight for them (Summon Monster X, Planar Binding line, etc.), etc.

A well built, well played, high optimization primary caster has an options list that would run longer than most books if fully typed out. At the pinnacle of optimization you reach a point where your options are basically "all of them"; I have made and played a character who prided himself on never once solving an encounter in the same way twice, and managed to keep to that conceit for the entirety of a 70 encounter adventure campaign.


Sorry for the philosophical question out of the blue, but... is this way of playing fun? I mean the high-level OP, be god and screw everything else-way. You'll break the DM's world, you'll be vastly superior to other players, which will take away their fun, you'll be ready for anything, so nothing will constitute a challenge for you anymore. Maybe people can have fun with "God Wizards", but I just can't see how...

Because done right everyone and the entire world is built to handle it.

Take a relatively common and thematically appropriate quest. A level 20 party is charged with killing a Great Wyrm Red Dragon. At many tables a moderately optimized wizard can do something like "Use Contact Other Planes to divine information about the Dragon, get a biological sample, use Simulacrum or Ice Assassin to create a copy of the Dragon and then interrogate it for all relevant information about the Dragon. Use various sneaky magics (like Superior Invisibility) to hide yourself and then Greater Teleport to the Dragons location before hitting it with a Maximized Shivering Touch to drop its Dexterity down to 0 and win."

At a table built for high optimization, killing that Great Wyrm Red Dragon is an entire campaign that takes 10+ high level preparatory encounters just so that you can get into a position to maybe be able to kill the Dragon.