OOTS #975 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Flying away is more like it! I thought this might happen. Roy isn't needed here. Sometimes all you can do is run away. Though I wonder what the end game is here. Perhaps we'll get it wrapped up before long? Or not. So they were able to fly all along? That's news to me!

[Great Dane]

Great punchline! :D Thanks Giant!

[Seerow]

If only she could have reframed that narrative into a win.

[Bitzer]

Seeing those gnomes die hurt a great deal. Alas, all great fantasy must have great tragedy.

Also, is that Sir Francis? I don't have my copy of On the Origins of PCs with me, so could someone check?

[deuxhero]

What's the darker skinned gnome in panel 3 (lower left) supposed to be holding?

[CoffeeIncluded]

I shouldn't have been as surprised to see that as I was. If Crystal's still self aware then she's still as evil as she was before. I wonder if Bozzok and Grubwiggler were watching though? Or what the consequences for the Order will be.

[GAAD]

Aaaaand here come the steampunk gnome robocops here to save the day from the murdering Crystal Golem?

[t209]

That kinda remind me when
Swine Prince would be scarier from its anger and make the game harder if you kill the pig, who marked the target, behind him.
I hope Gnomeregan, or whatever its name is, have universal cleric act (i.e- resurrection paid for) or have strong weregild law (Hayley, via manslaughter charges, have to pay for the costs of their resurrection).

[Faltenin]

Pretty sure those two dead gnomes used to be on my cereal box...

[Ezekiel]

OMG! Is that Sir Francois in the last panel? :smalleek:

[dancrilis]

Way to go Crystal, I don't know how many book, movies, comics etc where I have groaned at how the villain's didn't know how to use innocent bystanders properly.

She might have grabbed one and made Haley walk up to her to be killed - but she might have an Int penalty, so full props (also backing up Haley's re-framing as actually correct).

[Friv]

That kinda remind me when
Swine Prince would be scarier from its anger and make the game harder if you kill the pig, who marked the target, behind him.
I hope Gnomeregan, or whatever its name is, have universal cleric act (i.e- resurrection paid for) or have strong weregild law (Hayley, via manslaughter charges, have to pay for the costs of their resurrection).

It wouldn't be Haley who would have to pay up, although it's possible that she would choose to. She isn't responsible for Crystal's actions.

[Pokonic]

Ug. Is there a worse sound effect to associate with a child-sized skull then 'crunch'?

[Vinsfeld]

Nice art on the goblins.

[Ezekiel]

Ug. Is there a worse sound effect to associate with a child-sized skull then 'crunch'?

"Squish"? "Splortch"? "SHhhhhrriiipppp" ?

[BowStreetRunner]

Wait, can't the gnomes just be raised? I mean, considering how easy it is for adventurers, one would think that everyone in this world would carry an insurance policy with a raise-dead clause. :smallconfused:

[AsteronIronhoof]

Awesome! Another appearance of
Elan former paladin master, Sir Francois!

[GPuzzle]

"Squish"? "Splortch"? "SHhhhhrriiipppp" ?

"Plop" is a good choice for the sound of a childlike-thing's skull cracking.

[wkwkwkwk1]

I didn't know a golem could outsmart the original person :smallbiggrin:

{scrubbed}

[Quild]

OMG! Is that Sir Francois in the last panel? :smalleek:

I immediately checked when I saw him and it really, really, looks like him!

The two adventurers aren't the one that teamed up with Roy and Durkon though.


Am I the only one who thinks that Crystal Golem killing random gnomes what more coming from frustration than anything else? I mean, I don't think it was a plan in order to get H and B back to ground.

[Syncrogti]

Seeing those gnomes die hurt a great deal. Alas, all great fantasy must have great tragedy.

Also, is that Sir Francis? I don't have my copy of On the Origins of PCs with me, so could someone check?

Yes, it hurts a little bit each time an innocent person dies IMO. Great strip though, and if the PC's were never in danger, it wouldn't be exciting.

[Trixie]

Wait, can't the gnomes just be raised? I mean, considering how easy it is for adventurers, one would think that everyone in this world would carry an insurance policy with a raise-dead clause. :smallconfused:
Well, compare spell cost with average wage of even high profession skill NPC. It's not pretty :smallcool:

I wonder why Haley didn't decide to fly just out of reach to make Crystal ineffectively focus on her, though.

[tomandtish]

Am I the only one who thinks that Crystal Golem killing random gnomes what more coming from frustration than anything else? I mean, I don't think it was a plan in order to get H and B back to ground.

Crosseed my mind. Crystal wasn't that intelligent to begin with. I can't believe her current state has improved that.

Actually, this is one of the darker comics in the series. Not the darkest, but definitely darker when you think about it.

[dps]

Am I the only one who thinks that Crystal Golem killing random gnomes what more coming from frustration than anything else? I mean, I don't think it was a plan in order to get H and B back to ground.

Yeah, it seemed more like frustration than a plan to me, too.

[DigoDragon]

If I tried murdering gnomes with my golems, my players would of asked how they could get a share of that exp. :smalltongue:

[woweedd]

I feel like this is referencing some debates on this forum about how justified the Young Black Dragon was in attacking the OOTS.

[faustin]

Am I the only one who thinks that Crystal Golem killing random gnomes what more coming from frustration than anything else? I mean, I don't think it was a plan in order to get H and B back to ground.

As Haley pointed, the murders were a direct consequence of her own tactic. That´s why she looks so horrified.

[Tragak]

Ug. Is there a worse sound effect to associate with a child-sized skull then 'crunch'? [spends an inordinate amount of time comparing and contrasting dozens of sound effects] No. No there is not.

[Shining Wrath]

And that, my friends, is good alignment at work. You risk yourself to save others.

Bonus points for reframing the narrative. Since Bandanna and Haley outran Crystal once, they can outrun her again - and sooner or later they will find Roy, and then Crystal's dreams will be shattered.

[Porthos]

I predict that some of the reactions to this update should be fairly interesting. :smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Poor gnomes. :smallfrown: At least now the steampunk police will be motivated to act!

Absolutely loved that last panel!

[Shining Wrath]

What's the darker skinned gnome in panel 3 (lower left) supposed to be holding?

I'll call that a child with a kite.

[Zyzzyva]

As Haley pointed, the murders were a direct consequence of her own tactic. That´s why she looks so horrified.

Oh, definitely. Haley is absolutely doing the right thing by getting back in front of Crystal. But that doesn't mean Crystal is clever enough to have come up with this as a tactic, necessarily.

On a cheerier note: SIR FRANCOIS! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

I'm not quite sure how to call it on Crystal, whether she planned to get Haley back down with random murders or not. She was certainly yelling "Come back" as she killed - but I think the Haley Crystal remembers might have flown away. Haley, too, has undergone a little character growth.

Or maybe she's "showing off" for Bandanna - but I think not. Panel seven looks like genuine horror, panel nine resignation and annoyance.

[Anarion]

Not the gnomes! They were so cute and such good judges of hats.

I hope Crystal golem gets totally wrecked for this.

[RowanE]

Ug. Is there a worse sound effect to associate with a child-sized skull then 'crunch'?

How about "chomp"?

[declinator]

Wait, can't the gnomes just be raised? I mean, considering how easy it is for adventurers, one would think that everyone in this world would carry an insurance policy with a raise-dead clause. :smallconfused:

After Roy's failed search for a cleric who can raise dead, it seems that Durkula is the only high-level cleric around. And as mentioned, it's still a hefty amount of gold in ingredients.

[Torzini]

What's the darker skinned gnome in panel 3 (lower left) supposed to be holding?

I thought it was a gemstone at first glance, but upon zooming in it definitely looks like a kite to me.

Aaah, poor gnomes. That 'crunch.' :smalleek: On the other hand... hooray for the appearance of Sir Francois!

[Emperordaniel]

:eek: Not the gnomes!!! :eek:

[Boost]

Nice art on the goblins.

I think those are orcs (goblins have pointed ears and a darker skin tone).

[JessmanCA]

Great comic! Thanks Rich for the laughs. :D

[Castamir]

Since Bandanna and Haley outran Crystal once, they can outrun her again - and sooner or later they will find Roy
Unlike the undead and golems, they do get tired. On the other hand, the Crystal Golem can run forever, 24/7/365. The time is on her side.

[ratfox]

The poor gnomes suffered from a bad case of genre blindness... Or possibly, simple lack of commonsense!
I don't think it takes a high wisdom roll to realize Crystal is dangerous.

Blame the victim!

[Castamir]

Way to go Crystal, I don't know how many book, movies, comics etc where I have groaned at how the villain's didn't know how to use innocent bystanders properly.
They're not monstrous enough (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-02-11).

[Lord Of Mantas]

I ordinarily wouldn't be compelled to comment on the comic, except that this time, right as I saw that a new one had been posted, I happened to be listening to the 30 Seconds to Mars song of the same name. Coincidence, you are indeed a mischievous mistress.

Anyway... If the Crystal-golem does indeed just resort to smashing and killing things randomly if it can't find Haley, that presents very limited options for resolving this. The best would probably revolve around Haley finding Roy and Durkula so that they can take the thing down through sheer strength of arms, or else tricking it into some sort of containment. Most likely the former.

[Temotei]

Gnoooooo the cute little hat and the little faces and all the sad.

[Pronounceable]

Shots fired (at fantasy genre, who had it coming). This is a lot more brutal satire than Giant's usual fare. It's nice.

[Fshy94]

Why do I get the feeling that these occasionally flashes to Sir Francois are hinting at his re-introduction to the story-arc at large?

...or maybe I'm just jumping at straws.

[Torzini]

The poor gnomes suffered from a bad case of genre blindness... Or possibly, simple lack of commonsense!
I don't think it takes a high wisdom roll to realize Crystal is dangerous.

Blame the victim!

True, but Crystal hadn't shown interest in anyone but Haley/B up until that moment, so they likely hadn't realized that they might be immediate danger too (the right gnome in the 4th panel just looks bemused).

I guess it's similar to the human tendency to want to stick around to gawk when there's an interesting spectacle happening, rather than getting the hell out of the way.

[Keltest]

After Roy's failed search for a cleric who can raise dead, it seems that Durkula is the only high-level cleric around. And as mentioned, it's still a hefty amount of gold in ingredients.

Durkon actually needs a cleric who can cast Resurrect, as Raise Dead will not apply to bodies that have become undead. So there is hope.

[Rock270]

Why do I get the feeling that these occasionally flashes to Sir Francois are hinting at his re-introduction to the story-arc at large?

...or maybe I'm just jumping at straws.

You probably are jumping at straws as his appearances have all been for comedic purposes aimed at readers of Origin of PCs. However, it would be cool for him to make an appearance in the main story arch and see how Elan has grown.

[Rakoa]

Anyone else reminded of the murder of sleeping goblins by the last panel?

[Xavon]

Those gnomes were too stupid to live. Especially the second and third one.

[Angelalex242]

...Well. poor gnomes. Though they would've been wiser to stay away from a rampaging golem. On general principle. Taking hostages only works if the hostages don't sensibly get out of dodge.

[NerdyKris]

Why do I get the feeling that these occasionally flashes to Sir Francois are hinting at his re-introduction to the story-arc at large?

...or maybe I'm just jumping at straws.

I think it's the opposite reason. If Rich used a Sapphire guard Paladin, people would think that was a current update on their situation. So he uses sir Francois as a paladin that doesn't have any bearing on the plot, so he could be doing anything at the moment.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Poor gnomes, just murdered like that.

Memo to villains: You can kill PCs all you want, and important NPCs, but stay away from nameless NPCs who never did anything to you; or you lose my sympathy.

It's similar to the Kazumi-Daigo thing. Once you have a name, I no longer feel that bad about you dying.

[Keltest]

Poor gnomes, just murdered like that.

Memo to villains: You can kill PCs all you want, and important NPCs, but stay away from nameless NPCs who never did anything to you; or you lose my sympathy.

It's similar to the Kazumi-Daigo thing. Once you have a name, I no longer feel that bad about you dying.

Um...

Isnt it usually supposed to work in the reverse of that? As you get more attached to a character, it becomes harder to watch them die.

Maybe its just because the gnomes are so amazing.

[Liliet]

- Haley having a useful wand;
- Haley actively expressing being Chaotic GOOD;
- "reframing of the narrative"

I don't know which is my favorite help )=

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Anyone else reminded of the murder of sleeping goblins by the last panel?

Yep, that page hurt, too.

OOTS you jerks! No killing nameless people!

@Keltest: I get inordinately attached to nameless characters and background extras. Partially because my grandfather was a microphone operator, a boom mike guy for the movies, and the only times he was ever on film was as an extra; and he passed away in 2014. I have a soft spot for the underappreciated and unrecognized.

[sabremeister]

Why do I get the feeling that these occasionally flashes to Sir Francois are hinting at his re-introduction to the story-arc at large?

...or maybe I'm just jumping at straws.

What other times has Sir Francois appeared?

[Rakoa]

- Haley having a useful wand;
- Haley actively expressing being Chaotic GOOD;
- "reframing of the narrative"

I don't know which is my favorite help )=

I guess your decision is...

:smallcool:


Up in the Air.

[Peelee]

Well, compare spell cost with average wage of even high profession skill NPC. It's not pretty :smallcool:

I wonder why Haley didn't decide to fly just out of reach to make Crystal ineffectively focus on her, though.
Do you know how far or high Golem Crystal can jump? Cause i bet Haley doesn't. Fine lines between "oh god she got me," "Im safely out of reach but still close enough to try for," and "oh, more dead gnomes."

Um...

Isnt it usually supposed to work in the reverse of that? As you get more attached to a character, it becomes harder to watch them die.

Maybe its just because the gnomes are so amazing.

Thats why its similar. Its the same principle, but inverse.

[oppyu]

What's this? The Giant interrupting the narrative to insert his pro-not killing random NPCs moral stance into the story and down our thro- OK I'll let it go.

[Grey Watcher]

What other times has Sir Francois appeared?

It's widely believed that Xykon's TeeVo showed him Sir Francois when suggesting other Paladins he might enjoy viewing.

EDIT: Found it. Panel 4: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html

[Reaver]

[spends an inordinate amount of time comparing and contrasting dozens of sound effects] No. No there is not.

This sound would about do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyOw7ScY4F4#t=296

I'm going to go ahead and warn you guys though... Do not click on this unless you don't mind gore/GOT spoilers.

[Zyzzyva]

It's widely believed that Xykon's Teevo showed him Sir Francois when suggesting other Paladins he might enjoy viewing.

He also (probably) showed up in Girard's epic illusion, next to Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0888.html).

[Liliet]

Way to go Crystal, I don't know how many book, movies, comics etc where I have groaned at how the villain's didn't know how to use innocent bystanders properly.

She might have grabbed one and made Haley walk up to her to be killed - but she might have an Int penalty, so full props (also backing up Haley's re-framing as actually correct).
I always LOL'd at works where the guys who were thinking of themselves as Good and the heroes as Evil figured out that this tactic would work against the heroes and employed it without re-evaluation of their perception of the situation.


Wait, can't the gnomes just be raised? I mean, considering how easy it is for adventurers, one would think that everyone in this world would carry an insurance policy with a raise-dead clause. :smallconfused:
Doesn't it come with Con penalty for lvl 1 characters?


I feel like this is referencing some debates on this forum about how justified the Young Black Dragon was in attacking the OOTS.
No, this is referencing the tendency in DnD groups that the YABD drama started from too.


And that, my friends, is good alignment at work. You risk yourself to save others.
Yep. This comic desperately needs more of this. OotS is mostly running around for what can be seen as quite selfish goals...


Bonus points for reframing the narrative. Since Bandanna and Haley outran Crystal once, they can outrun her again - and sooner or later they will find Roy, and then Crystal's dreams will be shattered.
Yeah, here's hope. I feel like it won't be quite so easy.


Anyone else reminded of the murder of sleeping goblins by the last panel?
Well, Roy&Co actually did have a better reason than "here be treasure" to be in Dorukan's dungeon... but yep the debate is eternal.

[dtilque]

In panel 5, Haley says "Now we circle back to the airship...."

Doesn't that seem a bit out of character for her? Shouldn't she be concerned about Elan and want to circle back to him?

[Rogar Demonblud]

See, that's why you clear the area as soon as a fight starts.

[oppyu]

In panel 5, Haley says "Now we circle back to the airship...."

Doesn't that seem a bit out of character for her? Shouldn't she be concerned about Elan and want to circle back to him?
They're conspicuously ignoring Elan so the audience is more surprised when we cut back to seeing Bozzok hauling arse with a kidnapped bard.

[Jay R]

Near as I can tell, this is Sir Francois's first speaking role in color.

And I love the Superman quote.


In panel 5, Haley says "Now we circle back to the airship...."

Doesn't that seem a bit out of character for her? Shouldn't she be concerned about Elan and want to circle back to him?

She's being followed by a murderous golem. She should be concerned about Elan and not want to circle back to him.

[Doug Lampert]

Wait, can't the gnomes just be raised? I mean, considering how easy it is for adventurers, one would think that everyone in this world would carry an insurance policy with a raise-dead clause. :smallconfused:

Raise dead is 5,000 GP worth of diamonds. There's another 450 GP if you pay for the spell to be cast at standard rates.

A "maxed out" level 1 commoner NPC human has a craft or profession; +3 for starting with a 13 in Int or Wis and being venerable to make it 16, +2 for masterwork tools, +4 for ranks, +3 for a feat, take 10 and you get a check of 22 which on both craft and profession gives 11 GP if working for someone else (11.5 or so if you roll dice).

But that assumes venerable and masterwork tools and the feat, few will do that well, we're talking about roughly 12 year's gross income for a skilled worker. This is in the realm of "insurable loss" in the real world, but that's a lot of insurance.

You also lose a level, or if you are level one you lose 2 points of con that can't be restored at all.

Suppose the real world had a "raise dead" spell that cost, say $1,800,000 or so. Would that make death a triviality for anyone but the ultra rich? Now throw in that even after being raised you're more or less permanently weakened unless you go for the True Resurrection alternative that costs about 5x as much...

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm betting the opposite of what Elan said about the wands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0971.html) will turn out to be true: only the wands we already knew of will turn out to be useful (Z's fire wand, Cure Moderate Wounds, and Obscuring Mist).

[IamWeasel]

I have went through the last few comics, starting with the Mechane's approach to the city and the only oil rig looking structures on approach, were the docks for the airships. Now we see the outlines of oil rig looking structures in the background. What I don't see is the Mechane. There could be multiple docks, that you just couldn't see on approach?

[dtilque]

They're conspicuously ignoring Elan so the audience is more surprised when we cut back to seeing Bozzok hauling arse with a kidnapped bard.

A kidnapped Bard would be a repeat. Could happen again, but not likely.


She's being followed by a murderous golem. She should be concerned about Elan and not want to circle back to him.

So she activates her Boots of Speed and out-flies the golem.

[happycrow]

So... no takers for "Crystal's just misunderstood?"

[Torzini]

So she activates her Boots of Speed and out-flies the golem.

And get more gnomes murderpunched in the face? Don't think Haley'll be trying that one again.

[Shining Wrath]

Unlike the undead and golems, they do get tired. On the other hand, the Crystal Golem can run forever, 24/7/365. The time is on her side.

They will find Roy long before they even begin to make Endurance checks to keep running. It's not that big a town, and Crystal is making quite a ruckus.

[happycrow]

Ug. Is there a worse sound effect to associate with a child-sized skull then 'crunch'?

No. No, there isn't. :shudder:

[oppyu]

A kidnapped Bard would be a repeat. Could happen again, but not likely.

Will you stop pointing out the repetitiveness of the B-Plots and hurry up?!? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html)

[dtilque]

And get more gnomes murderpunched in the face? Don't think Haley'll be trying that one again.

Panel 5 is before any gnomes were punched.

[WindStruck]

Aaaaand here come the steampunk gnome robocops here to save the day from the murdering Crystal Golem?

We can only hope...


Ug. Is there a worse sound effect to associate with a child-sized skull then 'crunch'?

KRKLLSPLRCH!! ?

[jidasfire]

Yep. This comic desperately needs more of this. OotS is mostly running around for what can be seen as quite selfish goals...


I'm going to have to take issue with this. While it's true that the Order has some vested interest in saving the planet on which they live, I would hardly call that selfish. I mean, we have people in our world who seek to end wars, diseases, environmental damage and inequality because those things affect them, but you wouldn't call those people selfish just because they have a stake in the outcome. In the OOTS world, much like our own, a lot of people see that there are problems, and they rationalize all sorts of reasons for not doing anything. Xykon and Redcloak pretty much toppled one of the most powerful kingdoms of good in the world, and set up a monument to evil in its place (yes fine some goblins aren't bad whatever not the point), and virtually no one reacted. Most other kingdoms have reacted along the lines of, we don't want to be the next target of those guys, or we can't do anything, or how can we profit by this? Whereas, the Order of the Stick is actively going out of their way, facing enemies many times more powerful than they are at every turn, to actually stop a catastrophe of epic proportions. If you find that selfish, good lord, what do you consider altruistic?

[M84]

Poor gnomes. Even the existence of Raise Dead and Resurrection doesn't mitigate the horror. Especially since finding people who can actually cast those spells and the cost of the spell ingredients means they aren't always feasible options. Even if they are somehow brought back, the memories of being brutally murdered by an insane flesh golem will haunt them.

[Torzini]

Panel 5 is before any gnomes were punched.

Were you not suggesting a future action? :smallconfused: If not, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say with this sentence. Or how it relates to Jay R's response. (I could just be tired.)


So she activates her Boots of Speed and out-flies the golem.

[Mr_Scruffy_Kilz]

He also (probably) showed up in Girard's epic illusion, next to Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0888.html).

You know, I never noticed... Banjo has a date with him (not like the fruit, but like a puppet girlfriend) on the side opposite Sir Francois. Wonder what her name is?


Raise dead is 5,000 GP worth of diamonds. There's another 450 GP if you pay for the spell to be cast at standard rates.

A "maxed out" level 1 commoner NPC human has a craft or profession; +3 for starting with a 13 in Int or Wis and being venerable to make it 16, +2 for masterwork tools, +4 for ranks, +3 for a feat, take 10 and you get a check of 22 which on both craft and profession gives 11 GP if working for someone else (11.5 or so if you roll dice).

But that assumes venerable and masterwork tools and the feat, few will do that well, we're talking about roughly 12 year's gross income for a skilled worker. This is in the realm of "insurable loss" in the real world, but that's a lot of insurance.

You also lose a level, or if you are level one you lose 2 points of con that can't be restored at all.

Suppose the real world had a "raise dead" spell that cost, say $1,800,000 or so. Would that make death a triviality for anyone but the ultra rich? Now throw in that even after being raised you're more or less permanently weakened unless you go for the True Resurrection alternative that costs about 5x as much...

Like all insurance companies, I would think that they'd want to sell raise dead clauses, but the situations that would allow you to collect would be limited. Loads of people get Life Insurance, but suicide, negligence, being outside your home town, and many other factors can be excuses for the company to deny the claim. Health insurance will frequently cover your core medical bills, but sometimes Physical Therapy, Painkillers, and other treatments will be excluded (all examples of ways we counteract and treat permanent Con loss in real life), so these factors combined, it is quite possible that people in the Land of Gnomes might qualify for a Raise Dead Coverage, but I have a feeling that only the Gnome in 10 would qualify. The Gnomes in panels 7 and 9 both stood there while a high level monster was present and showing aggression to others. Had they been killed while fleeing, then they would qualify, living in an advanced, civilized, generally considered safe community, with multiple available Temples to negotiate lower Spell Cost rates (after all, if the company can buy one huge diamond, and a bunch of tiny diamonds, the average cost of each diamond would be higher, allowing for smaller diamonds to be used... seriously, I pulled an inversion of this on some of my players... because one of them haggled to get supplies for way lower prices, when it came time to use it to cast a spell, I informed him the value of the materials was too low... You get what you pay for :wink:. SO in that regard, the diamonds can be bought in bulk to make stones average to be worth more... using Schrodinger's Gem Appraisal: Until the gem is drawn from the chest, all the gems retain the value of the average of their collective value, so while agreeing on the gem, they are all worth enough, and once the agreement is complete, the value of the gem is set, remaining worth that much once it is separate from the rest of the stones). The idea being that most NPCs in the town should never need raise dead, yet will pay for it in the policy for their entire natural lives (obviously dying of old age/natural causes would be an exempt event from the clause).

To explain, I have no problem offering anyone Meteoroid and Global Armageddon Insurance. If you ever are hit by a Meteoroid or we ever have a Global Armageddon, I will pay out big. I can do this because the odds of collecting are Sub-Microscopically Small (obviously, if you work in Space, you are exempt from receiving the Meteoroid Clause, and if you are a Time Traveler from the Future, you have to collect after the Global Armageddon, not travel to before it to collect, as your records are still only a potential timeline until they are a verified timeline) since a Meteoroid is no longer a Meteoroid once it enters the atmosphere, and it changes to a third state if it survives impact, neither of which is covered... and payout on Global Armageddon Insurance sort of is difficult, since after it happens there is good odds I would no longer be around for you to collect from (if you are even around still to collect) and furthermore the money that would be paid out may no longer have any value, so I could as easily pay you with positive thinking at that point.

Possible denial of claims on Raise Dead Insurance:
- Failure to actively avoid rampaging monster
- Failure to actively avoid angering PCs
- Being in Catacombs, Dungeons, Sewers, or other places known to be frequented by monsters and/or PCs looking for XP
- Going out into the Wilderness
- Travelling to War Zones
- Mixing Potions
- Swimming in the Ocean
- Summoning
- Opening Portals to Other Planes
- Flying Kites in Lightning Storms
- Weather Experiments
- Rubbing Lamps
- Making Wishes
- Failure to avoid active combat
- Hanging Out in Pubs, Bars, Taverns, or Inns (may be waived for actual employees who actively avoid fights at their workplace, and only while at their own workplace, could still require a higher premium or a co-pay after first raise dead)

Seriously... let's presume a minimum Gnome Population of 100,000... at an average of 11 GP income a month, They each pay 3GP a Month (a little over 25% of their average Income), that is 300,000 GP a month... 3.6 Million a Year... presuming even 10 Claims a month, that is still a 100% profit, and odds are in a safe town like this, those two deaths are extremely rare, so it would probably be more like 1 death every month or two, making a massively profitable policy to sell in the area even before reducing valid claims by events like this (those two should have been fleeing the moment they saw Crystal chasing Haley and Bandana, not standing and gawking). Doubling the amount you pay out is quite profitable, making 9x what you pay out in Net Profit is just a recipe for a great business.


A kidnapped Bard would be a repeat. Could happen again, but not likely.
So she activates her Boots of Speed and out-flies the golem.

Um... Elan getting captured/kidnapped is actually pretty frequent. The Thieves in the Forest, By Miko, The Ritual/Identity Swap, Jail with Thog (He was captured, and then captured from being captured), The Island Goblins, By Bounty Hunters... Seriously, how would one more time be that big a deal?

[YossarianLives]

Poor gnomes. I feel so sorry for them. :smalleek:

RIP Gnomes: 2015-2015.

[SaintRidley]

Sad for the gnomes. Hooray for Sir Francois!

[dtilque]

Were you not suggesting a future action? :smallconfused: If not, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say with this sentence. Or how it relates to Jay R's response. (I could just be tired.)

I'm looking at the point of panel 5, which is before any gnomes were punched, so that wouldn't be factored into what actions Haley would be considering. Haley should be most concerned with going back to get Elan rather than to the airship. If she's followed by the golem, then she can go faster by using the Boots of Speed and get to Elan with some margin of time.

[LadyEowyn]

I feel like this is referencing some debates on this forum about how justified the Young Black Dragon was in attacking the OOTS.

I feel like you're right.

[dtilque]

You know, I never noticed... Banjo has a date with him (not like the fruit, but like a puppet girlfriend) on the side opposite Sir Francois. Wonder what her name is?
Don't know her name, but she first appears in panel 13 of the Happy Ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html)




Um... Elan getting captured/kidnapped is actually pretty frequent. The Thieves in the Forest, By Miko, The Ritual/Identity Swap, Jail with Thog (He was captured, and then captured from being captured), The Island Goblins, By Bounty Hunters...

Also Kubota ("Aww man, I didn't know *I* was going to be the girl" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0590.html))


Seriously, how would one more time be that big a deal?

So it's been a while since he was last captured and it's about time for it to happen again? Perhaps so, but will it be Bozzok or the gnomes who are the captors?

[Bitzer]

I'm looking at the point of panel 5, which is before any gnomes were punched, so that wouldn't be factored into what actions Haley would be considering. Haley should be most concerned with going back to get Elan rather than to the airship. If she's followed by the golem, then she can go faster by using the Boots of Speed and get to Elan with some margin of time.

I'm going to weigh in on this. If I were a member of a good adventuring party and I was in a situation where I was outclassed by an opponent and separated from the rest of my party in a town full of innocent bystanders, I would actively seek those capable of destroying my opponent rather than go back to my wounded comrade. My reasoning is thus: As good adventurers, both I and my comrades signed up to protect other lives at the cost of our own. We forfeit any claim to our lives, when risking them would save others. If one of us falls, we should know that the rest of the party will prioritize saving innocents over the wounded comrade.

Looking at it from another perspective, Haley has no way to heal Elan, and he's out cold. The only way she could carry him to safety without being caught by Crystal is to abandon Bandanna and fly him out. (This also brings him back into Crystal's line of fire again.) The safest thing to do is go back to the airship for reinforcements and take this golem down hard before it does anymore damage.

[dtilque]

Looking at it from another perspective, Haley has no way to heal Elan, and he's out cold.

She just gave him a wand of Cure Moderate Wounds, so it's somewhere on his person. She could find it and use it on him.


The only way she could carry him to safety without being caught by Crystal is to abandon Bandanna and fly him out. (This also brings him back into Crystal's line of fire again.) The safest thing to do is go back to the airship for reinforcements and take this golem down hard before it does anymore damage.

There are no reinforcements at the airship. The airship crew is too low level to be of help; the rest of the party is about town buying supplies or whatever.

[BrotherMirtillo]

Huh... well, props to both Bandana and Haley for both being willing to draw Crystal away from the civilians. Props to Haley also for getting resourceful. Magic doesn't seem to be an answer here, but I'm rooting for her to think of something else. It doesn't have to be a full-on "Knowledge (architecture and engineering)" demolition strike (in fact, I bet she could manage this without help from Roy at all), but even an improvised weapon would be cool.

Calling it now: Crystal will wind up neck-deep in solidifying concrete.


What's the darker skinned gnome in panel 3 (lower left) supposed to be holding?

My guess: a large rock with a vine plant wrapped around it. The very top portion of the green line looks like three leaves curling away from said vine.

I like Shining Wrath's guess of a kite, too. If the gnome looked more like Ben Franklin, "kite" would get my vote for sure.


A kidnapped Bard would be a repeat. Could happen again, but not likely.

Well, he has to add another level to his hostage-based prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0771.html), of course. :smallbiggrin:

[drnsain]

I'm probably projecting my own biases on these, and given that The Giant has very subtly and brilliantly referenced current world events on previous comics - I get a town starting with "F" and ending with "uson" vibe. #Gnomelivesmatter

[Bitzer]

She just gave him a wand of Cure Moderate Wounds, so it's somewhere on his person. She could find it and use it on him.

There are no reinforcements at the airship. The airship crew is too low level to be of help; the rest of the party is about town buying supplies or whatever.

I did forget about the wand, so nevermind that point then. The airship, however, is a good place to begin looking for Roy and Durkula unless Haley wants to drag Crystal through the temple district. It also takes the fight out of town where there are fewer gnomes to be slaughtered. And it has ballistae, one of those could do some damage to Crystal I'm sure. 3d8+plot could pierce a fair amount of DR.

[oppyu]

Well, he has to add another level to his hostage-based prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0771.html), of course. :smallbiggrin:

What would a hostage based prestige class do? Increased bluff and diplomacy, saving throws against Stockholm syndrome, spontaneous castings of illusions and the manipulate rope spell?

[zimmerwald1915]

:haley: I'm up in the air, I'm extraordinaire
I'm queen of the sky above all those down there
I'm famous, intrepid, let poets write odes …
Of the best and the highest of rogues! Ha ha!

[Lombard]

I really liked that they went back. Maybe I'm PManS-ing but it gave me a little bit of the feels. :haley:

[rewinn]

:haley: I'm up in the air, I'm extraordinaire
I'm queen of the sky above all those down there
I'm famous, intrepid, let poets write odes …
Of the best and the highest of rogues! Ha ha!


[Selections from the rock opera "Oots"]

"Good rogueing, Starshine
The wands say "Let's go!"
You soar up above it,
The Golem below.

Good rogueing, Starshine
You're flying along
Bandanna and you singing
Your fleeing golem singing song:

Flee Flip Floopy
Nibby nobby nooby
La la la lo lo ....

[music change....]

How can Golems be so callous?
How can Golems be so cruel?
Easy to hit gnomes
Easy to kill gnomes ..."

[ti'esar]

My recent flippant words in the OOTS Graveyard aside, those gnomes getting killed felt pretty brutal. But kudos to Haley and Bandana for their reaction to it.

And kudos to Sir Francois for acting like a real paladin in his cameo.

[ManicOppressive]

They're not monstrous enough (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-02-11).

Points for hitting a two-day old comic, too, though the current Schlock Mercenary arc is on a slightly larger, more potentially genocidal scale. :P

Also, this strip is an absolutely textbook example of the difference between "neutral" (We're not responsible for the actions of another, time to save our skins) and "good." (Oh god not the gnomes.) Which I like, because I think everyone (myself definitely included) sometimes as a little bit of trouble figuring out where the line is.

[Lkctgo]

Redcloak should really think about hiring that white plate mail fellow. He seems really goblin-friendly.

[Silferdrake]

Hot damn! That Crystal golem is really scary. Also, it's nice to see Haley intervening to save the innocent bystanders, I'm not sure if she would have done that at the start of the adventure.

[Chantelune]

Hot damn! That Crystal golem is really scary. Also, it's nice to see Haley intervening to save the innocent bystanders, I'm not sure if she would have done that at the start of the adventure.

Oh, she might have, but she would have then "asked" for her fare. :p

Curious to see how this will end, hopefully not in "roy saves the day"...

[Peebles]

It's true what Haley said in #972, Crystal really hasn't lost much intelligence through her transition, though I use the term intelligence loosely. Goading Haley to re-engage by laying into innocent bystanders seems like just what she would have done when alive. Let's face it, that's about as complicated as her thought processes have ever been anyway.

[Quild]

Those gnomes were too stupid to live. Especially the second and third one.

The third one? But he leaved!


This is a poor pun that may require the following explanations to be understood:
- Irregular verbs are a pain to learn for some people (probably for english native too though). I'm not included in these peoples.
- Some people can totally pronounce "to live" and "to leave" the same. I'm included in these peoples :(.

[Canuck617]

For me, it seems like the last frame is more a general knock on how "it's okay to kill them because they're commonly evil" rather than just the Young Black Dragon or goblins in general. Both are applicable, though. The Giant has a history of that.

I'm seem to be losing my mind, for I can't think of a city in the real world called "Fuson." Do you mean "Fusion"? I think you misspelled "Fusion." #alllivesmatter #realcitiesmatter #sorryforthehashtagsitwonthappenagainipromise

Also, add me to the "Holy crap, those gnomes are ridiculously cute" camp, as I hadn't officially declared my intent before this gnomicide. :(

In my book, there's a special level of Hell for those who commit gnomicide. Who's with me?

[Quild]

The gnome killing reminds me something.

During a game of D&D, I was about to attack one of my teammates(*), who happened to be a dwarf. Someone unfortunately managed to defuse the situation.
When we discussed that a few days later, my friends who had year of D&D experience realized that never in any of their campaigns had someone kill a dwarf. You don't kill dwarves.

I'm doubtful about that but... Killing gnomes? That certainly is horrible!

I wasn't aware of it at this point but her poor decisions cost us a chest full of diamonds. If I was being honest, I'd tell this wouldn't have been diamonds if things hadn't happened like they did.
In the end, only her got something out of this. Modified mountain plate and modified dwarven waraxe with 19-20 for initial critical range instead of 20.
Sigh.

[The Giant]

There are no references to current events in this comic.

Let's not have any in this thread, either.

[MrMercury]

There are no references to current events in this comic.

Let's not have any in this thread, either.

Good call


On another note, Roy's sword might be able to do something plot-relevant for a change! Edit: I meant the undead-slaying power

[Quild]

Good call


On another note, Roy's sword might be able to do something plot-relevant for a change! Edit: I meant the undead-slaying power

The only undead we know to be in this city is Durkon :smallconfused:


Also, are the creatures of last panels goblins or orcs? I thought orcs.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[GM_3826]

Well. That was a dark-ish comic.

Looking at the gnomes, I'm honestly a bit less upset than I should be that Crystal killed them. It's still a bit upsetting, though, to know that three gnomes who likely had lives were just killed, with no introductions, by a flesh golem who was looking for someone else. The ending of the comic was a bit dark as well, although it seems to be more of a jab at D&D players.

Again, not the darkest comic by a long shot, but it's definitely dark. I admit I laughed a little at the end, though.

[josinalvo]

She's being followed by a murderous golem. She should be concerned about Elan and not want to circle back to him.

Maybe. But she should definitely show some concern ... If she can convince her, send Bandana to heal him and attract the golem elsewhere ...

I mean, if it was her on the floor and Elan running around, there is no way he'd just leave her there.

=(

[Peebles]

I mean, if it was her on the floor and Elan running around, there is no way he'd just leave her there.

But Haley has proven her self to be a heck of a lot more practical than Elan. The best thing she can do is get Crystal away from the gnomes and Elan, in case she gets the idea to knock him about some more too.

[littlebum2002]

Maybe. But she should definitely show some concern ... If she can convince her, send Bandana to heal him and attract the golem elsewhere ...

I mean, if it was her on the floor and Elan running around, there is no way he'd just leave her there.

=(

But Elan also has Intelligence and Wisdom scores in the basement. Are you suggesting that ANYTHING he does is a good idea? The worst possible thing Haley can do right now is point out the easy coup-de-grace Crystal has lying in the middle of the street.

Good ≠ Dumb (except with Elan)

[Reboot]

But Haley has proven her self to be a heck of a lot more practical than Elan. The best thing she can do is get Crystal away from the gnomes and Elan, in case she gets the idea to knock him about some more too.

The best thing for Haley to do would be 'cast the flight spell on Bandana'. She's just as useless against golems, but Crystal isn't interested in her, so she's free to get help/check on Elan/etc.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

What would a hostage based prestige class do? Increased bluff and diplomacy, saving throws against Stockholm syndrome, spontaneous castings of illusions and the manipulate rope spell?
A level dependant chance of inducing Lima syndrome in their abductors? Ability to send morse code messages by banging on heating pipes? Improving chance of hiding a file or dinner knife?

And we know from Haley that Crystal once headbutted an elderly gnomish woman into a coma - why she did it, we don't know, but, just throwing an idea out there, maybe it was to get someone to do something?

[davidbofinger]

What would a hostage based prestige class do? [...] saving throws against Stockholm syndrome

More importantly, the ability to inflict Stockholm syndrome on your captors. Police actively encourage Stockholm syndrome because it reduces the risk the captors will kill hostages. IIRC in one case they even sent food without cutlery because they figured being forced to eat with their fingers would be a bonding experience. In 1999 Australian aid worker Steve Pratt was arrested by Serbia as a spy for NATO, his wife was asked whether she was worried and said no, nobody would want to hurt him, he was king of Stockholm syndrome and he and his captors would all be good mates soon enough. If you have a choice between Stockholm, Munich and Moscow then Stockholm is where you want to be.

[sabremeister]

Maybe. But she should definitely show some concern ... If she can convince her, send Bandana to heal him and attract the golem elsewhere ...

I mean, if it was her on the floor and Elan running around, there is no way he'd just leave her there.

=(

When Bandana says that she never really saw the need for wands, that indicates to me she has no ranks in UMD, and so wouldn't be able to wake Elan using the wand Haley gave him. So unless Bandana's got healing potions on her (unlikely, since this was basically a shopping and lunch trip), she's not going to be able to do anything with Elan except haul his body away.

EDIT: Also in #970, Haley says they're hitting the potion stores next, which indicates that they don't have any potions on them at the moment.

[Bulldog Psion]

I haven't read through the thread totally, and don't really have time, but I do want to address one thing.

Someone asked why Crystal didn't grab a gnome as a hostage and say "come here and let me paste you or the gnome gets it."

I think Crystal's actions are actually more tactically sound, discounting the fact that they're utterly, hideously evil, of course. The reason is that I recognize that while a lot of people who will put themselves at risk for a stranger, there are very, very few who will outright commit suicide for one.

In other words, if Crystal grabbed a gnome, and said "come let me get my hands on you, or the gnome dies!" Haley would likely say "Well, sorry, gnome, but I'm not going to die so you can live" and just fly off.

Even most heroic people don't want to embrace certain death; they're more likely to take a risk of death, but try to live, as well.

If I was being held hostage, I would expect a policeman, say, to take some risk of getting shot to try to set up a shot at the hostage taker to save me. However, I wouldn't expect the policeman to shoot himself in the head if the hostage-taker ordered him to; that's above and beyond even the call of heroism, and there's no guarantee that the hostage will be let go alive anyway.

So, if Crystal grabbed a gnome and gave Haley the obviously suicidal choice of letting the golem get its hands on her, or letting the gnome die, I would expect Haley to let the gnome die, albeit regretfully. Nor would I blame her or expect her alignment to change as a result.

In short: even a good person and a hero isn't obliged to commit suicide to save someone else, IMO. Take risks on their behalf, sure; but go to certain death? It would just be setting the bar too high for us poor mortals, and making reality look inadequate by comparison with some inflexible ideal that would almost never be realized.

And again, it's not necessarily a great thing to do anyway. Even if Haley "gave herself up" to the Crystal Golem to save a gnome, there would then be nothing to prevent Crystal from crushing the gnome's head anyway before wringing the life out of Haley, making the gesture one of futile stupidity rather than noble self-sacrifice.

So Crystal's action was probably optimal (for someone evil) under the circumstances.

[Burner28]

I love the fact that Sir Francois called out his fellow adventurers for their violence.


So... no takers for "Crystal's just misunderstood?"

Because she is clearly Chaotic Good!:smalltongue:

[Lathund]

Crystal's intelligence isn't all that bad, it seems :smalleek:. That was quite an effective plan.

Also, that final joke is so true.

[happycrow]

I love the fact that Sir Francois called out his fellow adventurers for their violence.
Because she is clearly Chaotic Good!:smalltongue:

The gnomish cyberpunk techno-cops will clearly factor Haley's part in the vendetta as part of their "endangering the public" and "involuntary gnome-icide charges," resulting in the Mechane being impounded. Roy will be seen as insanely far-sighted by the one PC paying any attention.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Last panel reminds me of a game I ran where a deurgar taken prisoner got the party wrapped up in a similar discussion. The deurgar were claiming squatters’ rights on an abandoned mine, and the party was invading. Unfortunately, the campaign fell apart before that situation was fully resolved.

[littlebum2002]

More importantly, the ability to inflict Stockholm syndrome on your captors. Police actively encourage Stockholm syndrome because it reduces the risk the captors will kill hostages. IIRC in one case they even sent food without cutlery because they figured being forced to eat with their fingers would be a bonding experience. In 1999 Australian aid worker Steve Pratt was arrested by Serbia as a spy for NATO, his wife was asked whether she was worried and said no, nobody would want to hurt him, he was king of Stockholm syndrome and he and his captors would all be good mates soon enough. If you have a choice between Stockholm, Munich and Moscow then Stockholm is where you want to be.

I think you are confusing Stockholm Syndrome, the syndrome where a captive develops sympathy for their captors, with Lima Syndrome, where captors develop sympathy for their captives.

[BrotherMirtillo]

I just researched flesh golems and learned of their chance to go berserk. Does anyone think Haley could win the battle by goading Crystal into destroying more stuff? I have few hopes for that method because Roy already did that to Thog, and I doubt this scene would just be a repeat of that. Then again, it couldn't be an exact repeat because Roy used his stamina to make that solution work, and Haley doesn't have that many HP.

Of course, she could use another method to tick Crystal off. She's uniquely good at that.
(...on further thought, her repertoire would lack gender-charged insults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html) this time, but her verbal skills remain. All she needs is one success, and I think she's insightful enough to find a more customized nerve to hit.)



What would a hostage based prestige class do? Increased bluff and diplomacy, saving throws against Stockholm syndrome, spontaneous castings of illusions and the manipulate rope spell?
A level dependant chance of inducing Lima syndrome in their abductors? Ability to send morse code messages by banging on heating pipes? Improving chance of hiding a file or dinner knife?

I like the combination of Manipulate Rope and hiding a dinner knife -- very good for plucky self-rescuing escapes.

But in case that's not an option, there could also be a vocal component prayer/yell of "Help!" or somesuch, giving a bonus to any nearby heroes who are about to kick open a door and start the rescue business. (The bonus increases if the hostage has taken physical damage from their captor.)

[Skull the Troll]

Wait, can't the gnomes just be raised? I mean, considering how easy it is for adventurers, one would think that everyone in this world would carry an insurance policy with a raise-dead clause. :smallconfused:

Only adventurers would think resurrection is cheap. If you assume a gold coin is one ounce but probably not pure then it would be safe to assume a conversion of 1gp to a thousand dollars. that makes the 5000 gp diamond about 5 million dollars at the current price of our world gold. Not many people can come up with that kind of scratch.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You know, I never noticed... Banjo has a date with him (not like the fruit, but like a puppet girlfriend) on the side opposite Sir Francois. Wonder what her name is?

Mandy, short for Mandolin, of course. :P

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The only undead we know to be in this city is Durkon :smallconfused:


Also, are the creatures of last panels goblins or orcs? I thought orcs.

Pretty sure they're orcs. We've seen goblins in the new art style and they still retain the same coloration. Orcs are usually drawn with a lighter shade of green.

[Mike Havran]

I don't think Crystal actually started killing gnomes because she correctly anticipated Haley's reaction. She merely resorted to her trusty anger vent once her prey was out of reach.

BTW, are the two other adventurers (aside Sir Francois) in the last panel from The Origin, or could they be the Kickstarter cameos?

[Bulldog Psion]

Also, that final joke is so true.

Personally, I find it quite irritating.

I, at least, have never participated in game where some handwave wasn't given as the reason for the "home invasion." Usually that the creatures in the location have been raiding for plunder/slaves/yucks in the area and have to be rooted out, or they are the minions guarding the lair of some Xykon-like knave, dark cultists sacrificing people or trying to call up ancient horrors, etc. etc.

While I realize that the background is seldom strongly developed (though I have seen actual "rescue scenarios" on a number of occasions), and the main reason for a D&D dungeon crawl is to have fun with a tactical wargame in an exotic location against bizarre opponents with unexpected, interesting abilities, I at least haven't seen a game where attacks for no reason were the rule.

The background, of course, usually isn't developed much beyond "The orcs of the Chattering Caves have been burning down farms on the eastern border and seized several caravans of loot" responded to with "oh boy, let's go get them!" But that's still a far cry from "hey, let's go do a home invasion on some totally innocuous creatures who are just sitting there minding their own business." That "business" is usually mayhem, slaughter, plunder, and violence, even though it's generally just mentioned rather than shown.

I guess I don't like these jokes because they seem like a preachy, unfunny jab at just about all people who play D&D, declaring it Badwrongfun by creating a distorted, exaggerated picture of an innocuous pastime. I guess it doesn't seem to me like the purpose is humor, but condemnation, and a statement that D&D games are some kind of an "issue" that needs to be "addressed" and "reformed." Which gets on my nerves quite effectively.

Maybe I've just had exceptionally good groups all my life. It's possible.

But this "humor" is like saying "what a scoundrel Beowulf was, going into the dragon's lair to get phat lewtz!" when in fact, in the poem, the beast was burning down the countryside and exterminating his people.

[NerdyKris]

I don't think Crystal actually started killing gnomes because she correctly anticipated Haley's reaction. She merely resorted to her trusty anger vent once her prey was out of reach.

BTW, are the two other adventurers (aside Sir Francois) in the last panel from The Origin, or could they be the Kickstarter cameos?

I agree. This wasn't a case of Crystal making a plan, it was a case of Crystal lashing out at the nearest available target while demanding her preferred target come down and face her. That it worked is just a lucky outcome. Crystal would have probably just started rampaging all over until she got bored if Haley hadn't returned.



But this "humor" is like saying "what a scoundrel Beowulf was, going into the dragon's lair to get phat lewtz!" when in fact, in the poem, the beast was burning down the countryside and exterminating his people.

Right, but he was referring to games where there is no reason given whatsoever. He isn't saying it's wrong to defend the villagers, he was saying there has to be a better reason than "I want their loot". The adventurer's reasoning was "they attacked first", not "They attacked a village first".

[butterbow]

Sir Francois appearance could mean that Rich is currently working on that one backer story, because then it would totally make sense that he included him in the main comic. He would be on Rich's mind - that joke does not look like it had to be this one character to tell it - any lawful-good-looking character could have done the job (and it would have been a nice opportunity to use a less-stereotypical Paladin. I'm thinking for example of a female Halfling). But when Sir Francois is soon going to feature in a new story? Than that's a really cool choice!

[Angelalex242]

I dunno. I wonder if O'Chul would've said the same as Sir Francois. Or Lein or Hinjo for that matter.

...Of course, we know what Miko would've said.

:miko: We didn't stab them for the loot, we stabbed them because they're evil! We're going to donate all the loot to charity and sleep on some rocks on the way back.

Because when you're livin' your life in a Miko paradise, being evil is a capital offense. No exceptions.

[Deepbluediver]

Is anyone else getting the impression that The Giant is spending a lot of time preemptively negating all the "why didn't character X use (obviously) superior tactic Y" posts?

The comic is still fun to read, it just doesn't feel like we're progressing very quickly in a narrative sense.

[Torzini]

I guess I don't like these jokes because they seem like a preachy, unfunny jab at just about all people who play D&D, declaring it Badwrongfun by creating a distorted, exaggerated picture of an innocuous pastime. I guess it doesn't seem to me like the purpose is humor, but condemnation, and a statement that D&D games are some kind of an "issue" that needs to be "addressed" and "reformed." Which gets on my nerves quite effectively.

Maybe I've just had exceptionally good groups all my life. It's possible.

But this "humor" is like saying "what a scoundrel Beowulf was, going into the dragon's lair to get phat lewtz!" when in fact, in the poem, the beast was burning down the countryside and exterminating his people.

I don't have much experience with D&D tabletop games, but I can think of quite a few video games where you have the opportunity to mow down bad guys just 'cause they're there. In the original Baldur's Gate, which is the first example I thought of, you can totally stride into random Xvart/etc villages in the countryside and proceed to slaughter everything with no repercussions. A lot of it is attached to some kind of quest or at least a basic rationale, like Minsc asking you to rescue Dynaheir from the Gnoll Stronghold, but that isn't always the case.

I definitely don't mind Rich focusing on it as a point (and find it kind of refreshing), personally. Mooks need more lovin'. :redcloak:

[Keltest]

I don't have much experience with D&D tabletop games, but I can think of quite a few video games where you have the opportunity to mow down bad guys just 'cause they're there. In the original Baldur's Gate, which is the first example I thought of, you can totally stride into random Xvart/etc villages in the countryside and proceed to slaughter everything with no repercussions. A lot of it is attached to some kind of quest or at least a basic rationale, like Minsc asking you to rescue Dynaheir from the Gnoll Stronghold, but that isn't always the case.

I definitely don't mind Rich focusing on it as a point (and find it kind of refreshing), personally. Mooks need more lovin'. :redcloak:

Really? I don't remember that. I can recall exactly one time in the original game (well, the enhanced edition on Steam) where you can walk into any sort of monster camp that hasn't previously been identified as malevolent and hostile, and in that case if they attack you, theyre actually attacking you, not the other way around. Sure you CAN just randomly murder people, but as it turns out, doing that makes you more evil.

[NerdyKris]

I dunno. I wonder if O'Chul would've said the same as Sir Francois. Or Lein or Hinjo for that matter.

...Of course, we know what Miko would've said.

:miko: We didn't stab them for the loot, we stabbed them because they're evil! We're going to donate all the loot to charity and sleep on some rocks on the way back.

Because when you're livin' your life in a Miko paradise, being evil is a capital offense. No exceptions.

You might want to re-read the comic. We never see Miko murder anyone "just" for being evil. Otherwise, many of the nobles in Azure City would be dead. Along with many citizens. With the exception of the Order, whom she was initially led to believe were bad guys, and refused to alter that belief, all of the other times she attacks someone they are commiting evil acts, or at least acts against her country, up until she went nuts in the throne room, where she also was convinced that Shojo was a traitor in league with Xykon.

I know people dislike Miko, but can we at least dislike her for the things she actually did? For starters, you would never send anyone on a diplomatic mission under your banner if they're going to stab random citizens of foreign nations simply because they pinged evil.


edit- The black dragon situation obviously being a major exception, but if you blame her for that, you have to blame the entire Order as well. She isn't the one who went into his cave.

[drazen]

Dislike this one immensely. Apparently like Haley went from Chaotic Good-ish to Stupid Good. The world's on the brink of ending; getting killed to save a bunch of NPC gnomes is a completely idiotic decision. This comic seems to say "It is good and just to immediately acquiesce to those who blackmail using the murder of random innocents," which is a perspective I cannot even begin get my head around. Haley getting herself killed here will accomplish nothing other than to further empower Bozzok & company. In her shoes, I'd get the cavalry first. She did not target the gnomes and they just stood around like a bunch of dopes -- she's not even the one endangering them, it's their own idle curiosity. If you stand around murderous abominations, you might get killed... it doesn't make the abomination's target responsible for saving a bunch of brain-dead looky-loos with no sense of self-preservation. That's not and definition of "good" that I'd subscribe to. It's suicidal stupidity.

This plot twist reminds me of when, in the Transformers comic, Optimus Prime fails to save a bunch of idiotic and useless NPC's in a computer simulation and thus declares himself to have failed the challenge that he actually won, thus getting killed for losing as per the agreement with Megatron. I thought he was a dope for it, and this makes me think less of Haley's tactical judgment, which is normally sound and was demonstrably on point as recently as a couple of days ago in comic time (in the final showdown with the Vector Legion).


seriously, I pulled an inversion of this on some of my players... because one of them haggled to get supplies for way lower prices, when it came time to use it to cast a spell, I informed him the value of the materials was too low... You get what you pay for :wink:.

That's an inaccurate definition of 'value.' If they stole the materials, would their value be zero? Of course not. The value of a commodity is what it's trading for on the market, not what one shopkeeper happens to sell it for at a particular data point.

[dancrilis]

Dislike this one immensely. Apparently like Haley went from Chaotic Good-ish to Stupid Good. The world's on the brink of ending; getting killed to save a bunch of NPC gnomes is a completely idiotic decision. This comic seems to say "It is good and just to immediately acquiesce to those who blackmail using the murder of random innocents," which is a perspective I cannot even begin get my head around. Haley getting herself killed here will accomplish nothing other than to further empower Bozzok & company. In her shoes, I'd get the cavalry first. She did not target the gnomes and they just stood around like a bunch of dopes -- she's not even the one endangering them, it's their own idle curiosity. If you stand around murderous abominations, you might get killed... it doesn't make the abomination's target responsible for saving a bunch of brain-dead looky-loos with no sense of self-preservation. That's not and definition of "good" that I'd subscribe to. It's suicidal stupidity.

Actually she is not being suicidal she is likely running to get help while keeping an awareness of where Crystal is - should she lose track of Crystal she is allowing a high level assassin with perhaps maxed stealth, a solid sneak attack and a death attack to see about ambushing her again, when it is fairly likely that no one in the order will succeed at the spot check - and she has to let a bunch of Gnomes die in the meantime (which might result in people crucial to Airship repair being dead).



That's an inaccurate definition of 'value.' If they stole the materials, would their value be zero? Of course not. The value of a commodity is what it's trading for on the market, not what one shopkeeper happens to sell it for at a particular data point.
Panel 1 page 677 disagrees with you.

[ti'esar]

Haley trying to take on Crystal in hand-to-hand combat would be suicidal. Heading back to the ground just puts her and Bandana where they were last strip, though (which is the one thing about this update that kind of bugged me, honestly) and stops her gnomicidal rampage. That's not Stupid Good; if anything, not flying away and abandoning the gnomes is pretty much everyday Good.

[Torzini]

Really? I don't remember that. I can recall exactly one time in the original game (well, the enhanced edition on Steam) where you can walk into any sort of monster camp that hasn't previously been identified as malevolent and hostile, and in that case if they attack you, theyre actually attacking you, not the other way around.

I think that would qualify as being akin to the 'home invasion' situation mentioned in the strip, where they have good reason to be attacking you first.

[BrokenChord]

... Crystal one-punched Elan, has 30-foot move speed compared to the 20 of gnomes, and is pretty much in a murder frenzy rampage. No door, barricade, or escape plan will save the little hat-lovers from dying horrible deaths against Crystal's immense strength and greater move speed. Haley flies off, it's not just the stupid gnomes who stand around that die, it's every gnome whose location Crystal can ascertain. And to be frank, not even the most severe stupidity makes somebody's life worth less. Somebody being Too Dumb to Live doesn't mean they actually deserve to die.

I'd argue that Haley flying away and leaving the gnomes to their fates would be not just Neutral, but possibly even Evil. I mean, she's proven that she can outrun the golem over the last few strips; you have a choice between getting a little exercise or letting people die, and you choose letting people die... I can't fathom the Goodness behind prioritizing yourself so totally as to sacrifice peoples' lives to entirely eliminate the risk in a situation that is not, currently, especially risky.

That's the thing about Good. It doesn't have to be stupid. Stupid people can be Good and Good people can be stupid, but they aren't inextricably linked. On the other hand, if you're choosing the smartest self-preservation tactic over an option that increases your risk somewhat but saves lives, you lose Good. It's just a fact. At least by D&D alignment logic.

The Giant is smarter than to agree with alignments in 100% of cases no matter how stupid (because 3.5 can be stupid about alignment quite often), but I can't imagine how he'd see Haley's alternatives as being better.

(On the other hand, I'd totally agree with you if Haley had done something like, say, start fighting Crystal again, rather than just returning to running on land. Directly confronting Crystal would be directly suicidal, would actually expedite her return to gnome-killing, and isn't the only option to save innocent life, so that'd be stupid. But in this case, Haley probably picked the smartest Good option available.)

[Bitzer]

You might want to re-read the comic. We never see Miko murder anyone "just" for being evil. Otherwise, many of the nobles in Azure City would be dead. Along with many citizens. With the exception of the Order, whom she was initially led to believe were bad guys, and refused to alter that belief, all of the other times she attacks someone they are commiting evil acts, or at least acts against her country, up until she went nuts in the throne room, where she also was convinced that Shojo was a traitor in league with Xykon.

I know people dislike Miko, but can we at least dislike her for the things she actually did? For starters, you would never send anyone on a diplomatic mission under your banner if they're going to stab random citizens of foreign nations simply because they pinged evil.

edit- The black dragon situation obviously being a major exception, but if you blame her for that, you have to blame the entire Order as well. She isn't the one who went into his cave.

While we never see Miko kill somebody just because they were evil. She states that she has done so. It's in the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0228.html). It's well established that she's killed creatures just because they detected as evil.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Personally, I find it quite irritating.

*snip*

Maybe I've just had exceptionally good groups all my life. It's possible.

But this "humor" is like saying "what a scoundrel Beowulf was, going into the dragon's lair to get phat lewtz!" when in fact, in the poem, the beast was burning down the countryside and exterminating his people.

Actually, if you look the guy replying to the paladin is saying they are there just cause it'd be a cool place to adventure.

More to the point, I've been in groups where the Random Encounter table has lead us to a humanoid camp/cave/whatever. All too often, we used it as an excuse to slaughter everyone, for pretty much the same reasons Miko used. They pinged 'Evil', so they were fair game.

Thankfully, I outgrew that. Too many others haven't.

[Keltest]

While we never see Miko kill somebody just because they were evil. She states that she has done so. It's in the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0228.html). It's well established that she's killed creatures just because they detected as evil.

While Miko may have killed people for being evil, there is little evidence that she goes around just scanning everyone she meets with detect evil. Its quite likely that they were in the process of doing or were known to have done something to prompt such scanning in the first place.

[ellindsey]

You know, I never noticed... Banjo has a date with him (not like the fruit, but like a puppet girlfriend) on the side opposite Sir Francois. Wonder what her name is?

She's also present in one of the panels near the middle of the big swirly illusion in strip #887.

[hopeful1212]

Those poor gnomes. :smallfrown:

On, the other hand, with Grubwiggler around they would probably made some of the world's cutest golems. :smallcool:

[YossarianLives]

Is it just me or do many of the gnomes in this comic meet a brutal end almost immediately after being introduced.

[Keltest]

Is it just me or do many of the gnomes in this comic meet a brutal end almost immediately after being introduced.

How are you defining "Many"? I think were at a total of 3.

[BrokenChord]

How are you defining "Many"? I think were at a total of 3.

Time to scour the archives. I'm sure gnomicide isn't a new thing. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Time to scour the archives. I'm sure gnomicide isn't a new thing. :smalltongue:

It totally isn't. But beyond mr named gnome who's name I cant recall, this is the second (and third) time its happened shortly after introducing them.

[dancrilis]

My count is the probably-nameless Gnome that Belkar killed.
The Gnome that Crystal headbutted into a coma*.
The Gnomes that Crystal has killed now.

This compares to the Gnomes in the current city that are not dead, and Leeky Windstaff, and gnomish armoursmith guy.

Easily possible that I messed some.

*We don't know if she recovered.

[BannedInSchool]

Such ignomble deaths.

[Tragak]

Such ignomble deaths. That was gnomt funny.

[Torzini]

Is it just me or do many of the gnomes in this comic meet a brutal end almost immediately after being introduced.

Gnome mercy.

*is hit with a brick*

[ranagrande]

My count is the probably-nameless Gnome that Belkar killed.

Solt Lorkyurg

[Angelalex242]

Be nice guys, there's no place like gnome.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That was gnomt funny.

I thignk it was quite fugngny.

[Angelalex242]

Gnome, Gnome on the range...where the Crystal Golem plays...where seldom is heard, a word cause they're dead, and the skies are not cloudy all day...

[Shining Wrath]

Crystal' ghola is to have a home free of gnomes with construct biomes.

[ericgrau]

I don't understand. She can fly and has a bow that can do good damage with or without sneak attack. Vs. DR 5.

[Angelalex242]

Come to think of it, Icy Burst is exactly what she wants. The Golem would be slowed if it went off.

...any ice damage or fire damage will do.

[KoboldRevenge]

Oh, the hurt doesn't show but the pain still grows... It's no stranger to you and me.

[dtilque]

Come to think of it, Icy Burst is exactly what she wants. The Golem would be slowed if it went off.

...any ice damage or fire damage will do.

Already tried the bow panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0972.html). Didn't do any good.

[Emperordaniel]

My count is the probably-nameless Gnome that Belkar killed.
The Gnome that Crystal headbutted into a coma*.
The Gnomes that Crystal has killed now.

This compares to the Gnomes in the current city that are not dead, and Leeky Windstaff, and gnomish armoursmith guy.

Easily possible that I messed some.

*We don't know if she recovered.

Clearly this proves that Crystal has a long-standing vendetta against gnomes! Now to connect this somehow to the other wild theories floating around...

[Doug Lampert]

Clearly this proves that Crystal has a long-standing vendetta against gnomes! Now to connect this somehow to the other wild theories floating around...

That means Gnomes are secretly EVIL, otherwise why would the clearly Chaotic Good Crystal attack them?

[Angelalex242]

She shot the arrows, yes. But Icy Burst didn't trigger. Though...come to think of it, the basic Icy effect should've triggered, as it does a d6 cold damage. Unless the arrows bouncing showed her missing its AC instead of bouncing off its DR.

[IamWeasel]

I am beginning to wonder if the Crystal golem comes with some INT to retain the sentience. Perhaps that makes this golem subject to spells that would attack INT? Hard not to create that strong a monster without some kind of obscure offset.

**added thought**

Perhaps they attack the INT spell-wise and then Crystal and her abilities are out of the equation, but you still have a standard flesh golem to deal with. Of course this is all an observation made from outside which Haley and the gang could only hope to stumble into, but they do have a knack for that.

[tomandtish]

So... no takers for "Crystal's just misunderstood?"

I suspect the only serious debate on her actions is whether Crystal started killing bystanders specifically to draw Haley back into combat, or just out of frustration.


I don't think Crystal actually started killing gnomes because she correctly anticipated Haley's reaction. She merely resorted to her trusty anger vent once her prey was out of reach.


It's true what Haley said in #972, Crystal really hasn't lost much intelligence through her transition, though I use the term intelligence loosely. Goading Haley to re-engage by laying into innocent bystanders seems like just what she would have done when alive. Let's face it, that's about as complicated as her thought processes have ever been anyway.


Case in point. And the truth is, we don't know enough about Haley's character prior to joining the Order to be sure. And that's probably the basis for most of Crystal's plans (if there are any).

[Peelee]

Solt Lorkyurg

Salt of the earth, that guy.

[Thunder'sFall]

I suspect the only serious debate on her actions is whether Crystal started killing bystanders specifically to draw Haley back into combat, or just out of frustration.

Case in point. And the truth is, we don't know enough about Haley's character prior to joining the Order to be sure. And that's probably the basis for most of Crystal's plans (if there are any).

Thank God for uncomplicated villains who are cool enough to like and evil enough to hate. I tell you, my reactions/opinions of Xykon, Bozzok and Crystal are a lot easier to figure out than with Redcloak, Jirix, Thog etc. (thank God also for characters like Kubota who exist just so we can hate them, since there's an even stronger catharsis factor to seeing them get what's coming to them).

Anyway, I'm fairly sure Crystal doesn't really "think". She probably has super-low intelligence and wisdom in favour of maxed out dexterity/strength/constitution. I mean, once she gets swinging (as shown in her pre-golem days as well as here) she's super-effective. But in the long term she's always been in the same bumbling side-kick role given to people with low intelligence (looking at you, Thog and Elan). She was at her most dangerous being directed by the smarter and savvier Bozzok, like when he told her to break Haley's bow and told her to quit stalling on killing her. Nowadays that seems to be a moot point - she probably works best as a solo operative. As we've seen here Crystal can simply batter the problem over the head until it's dead.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, if gnomes were real, they probably would have a fairly high casualty rate. Small, slow-moving, wear big brightly colored hats that pinpoint their location ... :smallwink:

[Quild]

How are you defining "Many"? I think were at a total of 3.

You're the third I see mentionning three gnomes. Where do you guys see a third gnome being killed?

[Keltest]

You're the third I see mentionning three gnomes. Where do you guys see a third gnome being killed?

Solt was killed by Belkar way back when within a short time of introduction.

[Quild]

Solt was killed by Belkar way back when within a short time of introduction.

Oh, right. I thought you were speaking about three gnomes in this last update.

[Emperordaniel]

That means Gnomes are secretly EVIL, otherwise why would the clearly Chaotic Good Crystal attack them?

It all makes sense now! But wait - I thought Crystal was a Paladin, and as such, Lawful Good? :smallconfused:

[Lurkmoar]

Condolences to the gnome families that lost loved ones on today of all days, Valentine's Day. Wait, I'm wrong. It happened two days ago! So... at least it wasn't a Valentine's Day Massacre or a Friday the 13th Smasher.

Nice strip. Seeing as Haley and Bandana are new to the place... do they have a destination in mind?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It all makes sense now! But wait - I thought Crystal was a Paladin, and as such, Lawful Good? :smallconfused:

She could be a Paladin of Freedom.

[Thunder'sFall]

She could be a Paladin of Freedom.

A paladin of Loki, perhaps?

[UristMcRandom]

A paladin of Loki, perhaps?

Isn't Loki Chaotic Evil? That'd make a Paladin of Slaughter.

Side note character concept: Bard/Paladin of Slaughter with Perform (comedy) who plans to put the laughter in slaughter.

[Tragak]

Isn't Loki Chaotic Evil? That'd make a Paladin of Slaughter.

Side note character concept: Bard/Paladin of Slaughter with Perform (comedy) who plans to put the laughter in slaughter. I've actually done that once, my PC had STR 25, DEX 15, CON 20, INT 20, WIS 15, CHA 25 as early as level 5. Wanna know how I got those scores?

[Angelalex242]

I've seen that guy in a movie. He was played by Heath Ledger. :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

Bad side: i was away for two days, and I'm late for the update.
Good side: it's sunday morning, and right after the breakfast, this is a delicious cookie. :smallsmile:

[Thunder'sFall]

Isn't Loki Chaotic Evil? That'd make a Paladin of Slaughter.

Side note character concept: Bard/Paladin of Slaughter with Perform (comedy) who plans to put the laughter in slaughter.

Hrmm, fair enough:smallannoyed: But I doubt a Paladin of Thor would do much better. Probably a Paladin of Drinking or a Paladin of Weather.

[Nemeean_lion]

I wonder if the Crystal golem can be charmed... Since it has it's own personality and probably as abysmal a save as Belkar.

[Thunder'sFall]

I wonder if the Crystal golem can be charmed... Since it has it's own personality and probably as abysmal a save as Belkar.

Nah, it wouldn't work. Golems are innately immune to mind-altering spells.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hrmm, fair enough:smallannoyed: But I doubt a Paladin of Thor would do much better. Probably a Paladin of Drinking or a Paladin of Weather.

I doubt that Thor is Chaotic Good either; it wouldn't make much sense for the largely lawful dwarves to revere him if he was. I imagine someone like Freya might be Chaotic Good.

[Bulldog Psion]

I've always thought of Thor as Neutral Good myself, with no very good basis.

[Thunder'sFall]

I've always thought of Thor as Neutral Good myself, with no very good basis.

It probably makes the most sense. It certainly accounts for Durkon being Lawful Good (Lawful <-> Neutral, obviously). Incidentally, in some settings Chaotic Good gods can legitimately be the patrons of paladins - for example, in Forgotten Realms, Sune, the goddess of love, passion and beauty, can pull that duty.

[Angelalex242]

Depends on which Thor we speak of.

Norse Thor is CG, certainly.
Chris Hemsworth Thor is NG.
Marvel Thor is still NG, with some L tendencies.

OOTS Thor? Only the Giant can say for sure, but drunkenly throwing Lightning Bolts and accidentally knocking up a fertility goddess suggests CG to me.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

drunkenly
My theory is that he is LG/NG except for when he's drunk.

[Keltest]

Obviously his alignment is Alcoholic Good.

[Gift Jeraff]

My theory is that the gods have racial biases and let certain races be 2 steps away, at least on the Law-Chaos axis. Thor and dwarves, the Dark One and goblinoids, Tiamat and dragons/kobolds, death gods and the undead, etc.

[Bulldog Psion]

Obviously his alignment is Alcoholic Good.

That's a very reasonable theory.

There's always a chance he's True Alcoholic, though. :smallcool:

[Quild]

Obviously his alignment is Alcoholic Good.

Did you mean "Alcoholic God"?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Depends on which Thor we speak of.

Norse Thor is CG, certainly.

Norse Thor is probably NE. His worship included human sacrifice and torture of captives and slaves. He himself is an aggressor, a murderer, violates hospitality on a whim and disobeys pretty much every instruction given if he sees profit (or lulz) in it.

Odin's lot practiced ritual cannibalism.

Let's face it, mythological deities are not nice (or even neutral) people.

[eilandesq]

The paladin--apparently Sir Francois, Elan's old boss--has a valid point, but wasn't the time to raise it *before* they made their way into the dung--er, the orcs' living room and started going to town with pointy objects? :biggrin:

[Angelalex242]

Okay, Norse Thor is CG according to Deities and Demigods. Whether they did their homework in Deities and Demigods, I couldn't tell ya.

[Gusion]

Sending Bandana to get help while Haley runs in a circle appears to be the obvious answer here.

I don't understand why they're staying together. Aside from the romantic feelings between them, of course.

Seriously, this is just bad tactics.

[dancrilis]

Seriously, this is just bad tactics.

It is possible that Crystal is not alone - and that splitting the party would allow for them to be picked off more easily.

Further if Haley suspects that Bozzok is around that is it not a leap to imagine that Tarquin and co are also around as they have a pre-existing working relationship.

Finally losing Bandana might lose them the airship which could allow Xykon to win.

So while yes in the battle against Crystal splitting up might be better - in the wider battle against Bozzok, Tarquin and Xykon it could be an incredibly poor choice (especially as the current tactic of running around is working to keep them alive and bring Crystal where they want her).

Now I suspect that they might very well split up - but I also suspect that it will be a case of Belkar to the rescue again (except for a harder fight this time - perhaps with a different outcome).

[Keltest]

Sending Bandana to get help while Haley runs in a circle appears to be the obvious answer here.

I don't understand why they're staying together. Aside from the romantic feelings between them, of course.

Seriously, this is just bad tactics.

They had an entire book about how you don't split the party! Also, there is a song about it too, somewhere.

[Thunder'sFall]

They had an entire book about how you don't split the party! Also, there is a song about it too, somewhere.

While I'm aware I'm seriously tempting fate (or The Giant) while saying this, it couldn't possibly be any worse than the current plan of trying to outrun a golem. Even accounting for high levels, eventually they'll get winded or run out of steam, whereas Crystal, being a golem, has neither a need to breathe, nor a problem of running out of energy (not that running seems to be that running long distances seems to be that big a deal but eh). They can't fight her alone and she's hardly going to give up, so they really need to find someone to turn the tide (assuming a solution doesn't simply drop out of the sky).

[Keltest]

While I'm aware I'm seriously tempting fate (or The Giant) while saying this, it couldn't possibly be any worse than the current plan of trying to outrun a golem. Even accounting for high levels, eventually they'll get winded or run out of steam, whereas Crystal, being a golem, has neither a need to breathe, nor a problem of running out of energy (not that running seems to be that running long distances seems to be that big a deal but eh). They can't fight her alone and she's hardly going to give up, so they really need to find someone to turn the tide (assuming a solution doesn't simply drop out of the sky).

I mean, its not like they plan on just running forever. Running is slightly more risky to them personally, but its better than letting Crystal slaughter the innocent gnomes.

[Thunder'sFall]

I mean, its not like they plan on just running forever. Running is slightly more risky to them personally, but its better than letting Crystal slaughter the innocent gnomes.

Well, okay, yes, obviously nobody wants Crystal to go back to the gnome punting, but I'm not seeing any solutions rearing their heads.

[Keltest]

Well, okay, yes, obviously nobody wants Crystal to go back to the gnome punting, but I'm not seeing any solutions rearing their heads.

Roy has a handy sword of bad guy smacking with him. V may or may not be able to find a way around Crystal's magic resistance (or whatever she has) as well.

[BrotherMirtillo]

After about a month and a half, I just realized: Haley got some nice Western adventuring under her belt, but Crystal is still one of her personal rivals, right? That would mean Crystal has an new level or two in addition to her golem powers.

That's intimidating, but also kind of funny. I have this mental image of Grubwiggler restructuring Crystal's corpse, then hearing a "DING!" and having no idea where it came from.

[ti'esar]

After about a month and a half, I just realized: Haley got some nice Western adventuring under her belt, but Crystal is still one of her personal rivals, right? That would mean Crystal has an new level or two in addition to her golem powers.

That's intimidating, but also kind of funny. I have this mental image of Grubwiggler restructuring Crystal's corpse, then hearing a "DING!" and having no idea where it came from.

That's assuming the rivals-parallel-leveling phenomenon doesn't operate based on ECL.

[dtilque]

Roy has a handy sword of bad guy smacking with him. V may or may not be able to find a way around Crystal's magic resistance (or whatever she has) as well.

V could just slap a Forcecage around her and sidestep any spell resistance she has.


That's assuming the rivals-parallel-leveling phenomenon doesn't operate based on ECL.

And that death doesn't cancel the rival relationship, something which I'd expect.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's assuming the rivals-parallel-leveling phenomenon doesn't operate based on ECL.
Z appeared to have 15 Wizard levels in Girard's Pyramid, and V postulated during their fight in Bleedingham that the two were "the same level." The dark elf seemed to consider himself a personal rival.

There's an interesting wrinkle here. By the end of the day that featured the destruction of Girard's Pyramid, V carried the spell load of a 16th-level wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16647248&postcount=982), and she didn't appear to level up during that day. That would mean Z entered the pyramid a level behind V. But being drow adds 2 to Z's ECL, so by neither metric, class level alone or ECL, do the two match at all times.

At all times, however, Z had an ECL higher than V's: 17 v. 15 in Bleedingham, and 17 v. 16 in the pyramid. In stating the personal rival level guideline, Haley mentions that personal rivals can be higher-level than their PC counterparts. So the V-Z rivalry certainly points to ECL being the metric used in the personal rival guideline.

Or we're all making too much over an offhand remark the Giant's probably forgotten or learned to regret putting in a character's mouth.


V could just slap a Forcecage around her and sidestep any spell resistance she has.
At this point if V encounters spell resistance, I expect the Giant to let her bypass it this time, with the aid of Blackwing and his ioun bangle.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Or we're all making too much over an offhand remark the Giant's probably forgotten or learned to regret putting in a character's mouth.

It was one panel out of tens of thousands.

[Quild]

Or we're all making too much over an offhand remark the Giant's probably forgotten or learned to regret putting in a character's mouth.

Since I was following the geekery discussion about V's level during the fight against Laurin, I seem to remember that the Giant answered to how he estimated the number of spells V had remaining. It was something like writing that V had 30 spells remaining, finding it too high, writing 25.



Edit (before posting, yes): Flawless memory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16655438&postcount=1107)

[Rodin]

Since I was following the geekery discussion about V's level during the fight against Laurin, I seem to remember that the Giant answered to how he estimated the number of spells V had remaining. It was something like writing that V had 30 spells remaining, finding it too high, writing 25.



Edit (before posting, yes): Flawless memory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16655438&postcount=1107)

Obviously, V actually did have 30 spells remaining, but those 5 were:

Create Chicken Tikka Masala
Create Naan Bread
Create Poppadom
Create Raita
Teleport Food to Giant

[goodpeople25]

Obviously, V actually did have 30 spells remaining, but those 5 were:

Create Chicken Tikka Masala
Create Naan Bread
Create Poppadom
Create Raita
Teleport Food to Giant
No those spells can't be right.

V can't cast conjuration spells.

[sabremeister]

Obviously, V actually did have 30 spells remaining, but those 5 were:

Create Chicken Tikka Masala
Create Naan Bread
Create Poppadom
Create Raita
Teleport Food to Giant


No those spells can't be right.

V can't cast conjuration spells.

Maybe they are Enchantment spells to make Belkar cook them, then an Evocation to blow Belkar and his recently-cooked foodstuffs through dimensions to the Giant.

[Bulldog Psion]

So while yes in the battle against Crystal splitting up might be better - in the wider battle against Bozzok, Tarquin and Xykon it could be an incredibly poor choice (especially as the current tactic of running around is working to keep them alive and bring Crystal where they want her).

Yes, that is a good point. At the moment, they have one of the biggest tactical disadvantages possible -- a complete lack of information on the size, location, and composition of any other enemy forces on the scene.

Just about their only strength at the moment is that are there two of them. If they split up, they'll have halved their effective fighting force against any other threats they encounter.

Ordinarily, splitting up would be optimal, but right now, it would be rash.

[Grey Watcher]

Obviously, V actually did have 30 spells remaining, but those 5 were:

Create Chicken Tikka Masala
Create Naan Bread
Create Poppadom
Create Raita
Teleport Food to Giant

Well, that first spell can't be right, since the Giant is a vegetarian. Maybe Create Palak Paneer instead?

[goodpeople25]

Maybe they are Enchantment spells to make Belkar cook them, then an Evocation to blow Belkar and his recently-cooked foodstuffs through dimensions to the Giant.

Well then they are pretty non indicative names then.

Or maybe the spells are break 4th wall III, II, ect. And v casts them at least once a day. Breaking things seems like evocation (well from my understanding thats all it does plus contingency)
Also fixes anytime v runs out of spells and we don't see him cast them all.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well then they are pretty non indicative names then.

Or maybe the spells are break 4th wall III, II, ect. And v casts them at least once a day. Breaking things seems like evocation (well from my understanding thats all it does plus contingency)
Also fixes anytime v runs out of spells and we don't see him cast them all.

Perhaps they have a variety of transmutation spells available for turning air into ingredients for Indian food.

[happycrow]

You forgot to add "Celestial," as V specializes in illusory food.

[Doug Lampert]

That's assuming the rivals-parallel-leveling phenomenon doesn't operate based on ECL.

It should operate on CR, NPCs do not use ECL, it's a PC only rule, non-cohort NPCs use CR, which has totally different rules (cohort NPCs use a version of the ECL rules, but can have races that aren't allowed for PCs). This is one of the two spots where 3.5 quite clearly and explicitly has different rules for PCs and NPCs (the other is qualification for epic feats, where PCs go by ECL and monsters and NPCs have different rules specifically because they don't use ECL).


Z appeared to have 15 Wizard levels in Girard's Pyramid, and V postulated during their fight in Bleedingham that the two were "the same level." The dark elf seemed to consider himself a personal rival.

There's an interesting wrinkle here. By the end of the day that featured the destruction of Girard's Pyramid, V carried the spell load of a 16th-level wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16647248&postcount=982), and she didn't appear to level up during that day. That would mean Z entered the pyramid a level behind V. But being drow adds 2 to Z's ECL, so by neither metric, class level alone or ECL, do the two match at all times.

Drow are +1 to CR, and Z is an NPC. It works fine if he's a level behind.

[Veya]

It should operate on CR, NPCs do not use ECL, it's a PC only rule, non-cohort NPCs use CR, which has totally different rules (cohort NPCs use a version of the ECL rules, but can have races that aren't allowed for PCs). This is one of the two spots where 3.5 quite clearly and explicitly has different rules for PCs and NPCs (the other is qualification for epic feats, where PCs go by ECL and monsters and NPCs have different rules specifically because they don't use ECL).
I don't think it works like that.

OOTS-verse isn't a game being played, it is a world that works by D&D rules for some reason, if LA exists at all, it would apply to everyone, because everyone is their own "PCs" in that universe, I know that from a meta PoV, we know that the OOTS are the ones that count as "PCs", but I am trying to view this world from a more fair and less meta PoV.

There is also the alternative that LA doesn't exist at all in OOTS-verse, LA exists as an attempt to balance particularly powerful race choices out, but in OOTS-verse you don't choose your race, you are just born into it.

Or there is the alternative that OOTS-verse uses the LA buy-out rules, at +2, Z would be able to buy it out by 9th level, which I belive is before he even met V.

[snowblizz]

I don't think it works like that.

OOTS-verse isn't a game being played, it is a world that works by D&D rules for some reason, if LA exists at all, it would apply to everyone, because everyone is their own "PCs" in that universe, I know that from a meta PoV, we know that the OOTS are the ones that count as "PCs", but I am trying to view this world from a more fair and less meta PoV.
Not so. There are very specifically NPCs (Shojo was one e.g.) and they are generally treated badly by the cosmic rules of OOTS-D&D, and they know it! Redcloak bemoans this fact in his intro to Start of Darkness. Redcloak isn't a PC even in his own story, he is a NPC and boy does it seem to rankle him. Some lucky gits are designated PCs by the universe, and others are stuck being NPCs. Basically the universe is not fair at all, and a lot people are keenly aware of that fact.


There is also the alternative that LA doesn't exist at all in OOTS-verse, LA exists as an attempt to balance particularly powerful race choices out, but in OOTS-verse you don't choose your race, you are just born into it.

Or there is the alternative that OOTS-verse uses the LA buy-out rules, at +2, Z would be able to buy it out by 9th level, which I belive is before he even met V.
Malack certainly seems hindered by his LA having difficulty finding appropriate encounters and thus getting a high-lvl, he was lower level than Durkon e.g.

[Quild]

Malack certainly seems hindered by his LA having difficulty finding appropriate encounters and thus getting a high-lvl, he was lower level than Durkon e.g.

He claims that, right. I thought that Durkon's line about adventuring (Malack should have spend less time studying and more time adventuring) wasn't just Durkon's opinion but I can't find The Giant speaking about it.

The fact that Malack went close enough from Durkon that Durkon could cast Heal on him was for instance an important mistake. But maybe it didn't serve the purpose I thought of showing that Malack wasn't much of an adventurer.


Anyway I'm still sure LA exists somehow on oots-verse for both PC and NPC. CR may not exist.

[Trubbol]

So many acronyms!

[goodpeople25]

He claims that, right. I thought that Durkon's line about adventuring (Malack should have spend less time studying and more time adventuring) wasn't just Durkon's opinion but I can't find The Giant speaking about it.

The fact that Malack went close enough from Durkon that Durkon could cast Heal on him was for instance an important mistake. But maybe it didn't serve the purpose I thought of showing that Malack wasn't much of an adventurer.


Anyway I'm still sure LA exists somehow on oots-verse for both PC and NPC. CR may not exist.
I' pretty sure they metioned challenge rating in the strip by name before # 124 unless its a different CR.

[snowblizz]

I' pretty sure they metioned challenge rating in the strip by name before # 124 unless its a different CR.

The devas in Celestia are also consulting CR for the Dungeon of Monsters just Tough enough to Challenge you.

[Reboot]

And V once demanded no-one disturb them for "a Challenge Rating lower than 11" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0508.html).

[Killer Angel]

And V once demanded no-one disturb them for "a Challenge Rating lower than 11" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0508.html).
That was clearly due to sleep (trance) deprivation! :smalltongue:

[Bulldog Psion]

So many acronyms!

LA = level adjustment, a D&D concept to keep powerful creatures balanced with less powerful ones when they're used as characters.

CR = Challenge Rating, a shorthand numerical way of telling whether a monster is too weak, just right, or too tough to appropriately "challenge" a party of adventurers in combat.

PC = Player Character, a character in the game controlled by one of the players.

NPC = non-player character, a character in the game who exists as background to the PCs' story and is controlled by the game master.

[Mikeavelli]

I like to think I inspired (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18195761&postcount=38) this particular comic.

If you follow the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374687-The-Spell-Encounter-Challenge/page2) it's shaping up pretty much as expected, too.

[Hurgablurg]

Not sure if this has been adressed, but the last panel has me a bit confused.
One of the main themes in OotS is how npc races are being killed for xp without any acknowledgement of their plight, and nearly every non-Dark One alligned npc is fine with killing them en-masse. Now, I've never read Origins of PC's (I didn't start reading the webcomic until Don't Split the Party, and I never bought SoD or OoPC's), forgive me; so if the rehead IS Sir Francis, wouldn't he have the same mindset as all other PC characters? Why would he care about a bunch of goblins, much less breaking and entering their home (Are they goblins? Their skin had a more olive tint to it, like orcs, and if they were orcs, it might make a bit more sense as too his opposition to their deaths)? Or is he one of those Compassionate Good types?

[Pyron]

Not sure if this has been adressed, but the last panel has me a bit confused.
One of the main themes in OotS is how npc races are being killed for xp without any acknowledgement of their plight, and nearly every non-Dark One alligned npc is fine with killing them en-masse. Now, I've never read Origins of PC's (I didn't start reading the webcomic until Don't Split the Party, and I never bought SoD or OoPC's), forgive me; so if the rehead IS Sir Francis, wouldn't he have the same mindset as all other PC characters? Why would he care about a bunch of goblins, much less breaking and entering their home (Are they goblins? Their skin had a more olive tint to it, like orcs, and if they were orcs, it might make a bit more sense as too his opposition to their deaths)? Or is he one of those Compassionate Good types?

Not every adventurer subscribes to the mindset that it's okay to slaughter monsters for the sake of XP. PC characters are free-willed beings with their own thoughts and a variety of outlooks. I could name a few in the Origin of the PCs who would agree with Sir Francis, but I won't spoil it.

So, yeah, he's compassionate good.

[Hurgablurg]

Not every adventurer subscribes to the mindset that it's okay to slaughter monsters for the sake of XP. PC characters are free-willed beings with their own thoughts and a variety of outlooks. I could name a few in the Origin of the PCs who would agree with Sir Francis, but I won't spoil it.

So, yeah, he's compassionate good.

I wasn't insinuating anything about the nature of PC's. I've ran a few campaigns IN REAL LIFE, I know things about tabletops.
I was talking about IN-UNIVERSE in regards to opinions. The PREVALENT opinion of PC's, and indeed many NPC's it seems at times in the OotS universe, is that goblins and other typical low level NPC's are just xp packets. Now, I know that that mindset is not universal WITHIN the OotS world, but among the NPC's we HAVE seen, it seems to be the prevalent opinion.
All I was asking is if Sir Francis was someone who DID NOT have that opinion, and I thank you for your answer and confirmation of my theory, but I feel those first few sentances were a bit condenscending.

[Gnoman]

but among the NPC's we HAVE seen, it seems to be the prevalent opinion.

That requires a GREAT deal of backing up, as the only person that's demonstrably given this belief in the main comic is Belkar, who is explicitly evil. Outside of the killing of the "rescued prisoner" by the elf commando team, I can't think of a single act of violence committed against a goblinoid in the main comic that wasn't either a perfectly legitimate battle (either in the assault on Xykon's base, which the Order attacked to destroy a clearly dangerous lich and his army, the defense of Azure City, or the battles of the Resistance) or committed by the villains of the piece. Even the events in Redcloak's past were carried out to destroy a known threat to the Azure City Gate (the crimson mantle) (things got very out of hand, and the Giant has implied that at least some paladins might have fallen from it) rather than being a "harvest these XP-bags" deal.


The primary evidence that "goblins as xp fodder" is the state of the world, and everyone accepts it unquestioningly, is Redcloak, who we know is lying to HIMSELF about the plan, and can hardly be considered the most reliable of narrators.

[Hurgablurg]

That requires a GREAT deal of backing up, as the only person that's demonstrably given this belief in the main comic is Belkar, who is explicitly evil. Outside of the killing of the "rescued prisoner" by the elf commando team, I can't think of a single act of violence committed against a goblinoid in the main comic that wasn't either a perfectly legitimate battle (either in the assault on Xykon's base, which the Order attacked to destroy a clearly dangerous lich and his army, the defense of Azure City, or the battles of the Resistance) or committed by the villains of the piece. Even the events in Redcloak's past were carried out to destroy a known threat to the Azure City Gate (the crimson mantle) (things got very out of hand, and the Giant has implied that at least some paladins might have fallen from it) rather than being a "harvest these XP-bags" deal.


The primary evidence that "goblins as xp fodder" is the state of the world, and everyone accepts it unquestioningly, is Redcloak, who we know is lying to HIMSELF about the plan, and can hardly be considered the most reliable of narrators.

Wow, if I knew there was going to be that level of hostility I wouldn't have said anything. But that kind racism IS one of the themes of the comic. And where are you getting Redcloak doubting his own reasoning from? Yes, he started his whole crusade because of the way the goblinoids were being treated, but he continued NOT because he was too deep to quit after becoming dissillusioned, he continued because he was in too deep to find an ALTERNATIVE to his conclusive goal.

[davidbofinger]

Well, that first spell can't be right, since the Giant is a vegetarian.

Some people are vegetarian for moral or religious reasons. In which case they might be OK with magically-created meat. (No idea about The Giant specifically.)

[davidbofinger]

My theory is that he is LG/NG except for when he's drunk.

Are those last four words a euphemism for "basically all the time"?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Are those last four words a euphemism for "basically all the time"?

...Maaaaybee. :smallwink:
---
Also, Hurgablurg, I'm pretty sure Pyron was referring entirely to the world of OOTS with his post.

[Zyzzyva]

...the Giant has implied that at least some paladins might have fallen from it...

Do you have the source for that? I'd like to read the thread in which that came up, and I can't find it from some cursory searching and poking through the index-of-the-Giant's-comments.

[Keltest]

Do you have the source for that? I'd like to read the thread in which that came up, and I can't find it from some cursory searching and poking through the index-of-the-Giant's-comments.

His comment was closer to "Some paladins may or may not have crossed the line and fallen, but they wouldn't get the light show Miko got, and it would undermine the point of SoD to show them doing so."

[Zyzzyva]

His comment was closer to "Some paladins may or may not have crossed the line and fallen, but they wouldn't get the light show Miko got, and it would undermine the point of SoD to show them doing so."

OK, thanks.

[Keltest]

OK, thanks.

The actual quote, for your convenience. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?145182-SOD-debate-between-me-and-my-friend-(spoilers-I-guess)&p=8081896#post8081896)