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enderrocksonall
2007-04-06, 08:29 AM
Looking at the BoED it seems that a decent dex and wis lvl 5 human monk can get his AC into the 30's without breaking a sweat by taking Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace.

Even better make the campaign gestalt and have a pally//monk with charging smite to get the damage even higher. Later on you can drop one of them to start the dragon devotee or desciple PrC's to boost your stats and you're well on your way to epic at level 12.

martyboy74
2007-04-06, 08:33 AM
Looking at the BoED it seems that a decent dex and wis lvl 5 human monk can get his AC into the 30's without breaking a sweat by taking Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace.

Even better make the campaign gestalt and have a pally//monk with charging smite to get the damage even higher. Later on you can drop one of them to start the dragon devotee or desciple PrC's to boost your stats and you're well on your way to epic at level 12.

What happens when you're facing a flying opponent? Or, for that matter, if you actually need to, y'know, fight someone?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-06, 08:37 AM
It's just you. Sure, you have a high AC, but Vow of Poverty weakens you very significantly in the long run, plus there's the problem of flying foes.

And, of course, vow of Peace/Nonviolence means your entire party has to change their playstyle, and you can't actually fight, so what's the point of having the AC?

Piccamo
2007-04-06, 08:39 AM
You can turn the other cheek rather well, congrats!

enderrocksonall
2007-04-06, 08:40 AM
its not that you cant fight its just that you cant deal lethal damage. for a monk that is just a different flavor of ice cream anyway. for the flight thing become a dragonborn with wings no biggee.

martyboy74
2007-04-06, 08:46 AM
If you want to get that high of an AC, it's npt very hard for a monk anyways. Just pump WIS, with the magic items you couldn't use before, an be at least semi-useful.

enderrocksonall
2007-04-06, 08:50 AM
If you want to get that high of an AC, it's npt very hard for a monk anyways. Just pump WIS, with the magic items you couldn't use before, an be at least semi-useful.


how would you get your wis THAT high? I realize my optimization skill is at a -8 but I cant figure how you would get that many stackable bonuses from items.

Zincorium
2007-04-06, 08:52 AM
Base AC: 10
Vow of Poverty: +5 (at level 5)
Vow of Peace: +6
Total before ability modifiers: 21

So, to get an AC of thirty, you're looking at a dex and wisdom with a total modifier of +9.

That's at least one score of 20 or above, which you could only get with a racial mod to dex or wisdom since you haven't got a 2nd ability score increase, as well as at minimum a 17 and an 18, with a +2 to dex from elf or halfling and a +1 to the 17 at level 4.

That's pretty boss scores, of course you're going to have a good AC. And, of course, the only race this works with is strongheart halfling from the FR campaign setting. Why? Because otherwise you can't get the feats by level 5. Remember you don't get the bonus feats from vow of poverty if you take it after the level you get them, it says so in the preceding page. You need to take sacred vow and vow of poverty at first level to make it, and that means a bonus feat. Humans don't get a plus to an ability score, so you can't make the ability mods to get to 30.

Of course, you can't use any magic items, and all wealth you come across has to be donated to a worthy cause (you can't just let the other players take it), and you're going to tick off your party members to no end, because not only can you not kill enemies, you can't let them do it either. And any normal campaign is not going to solely feature undead and evil outsiders. It will come up.

enderrocksonall
2007-04-06, 08:58 AM
Base AC: 10

Of course, you can't use any magic items, and all wealth you come across has to be donated to a worthy cause (you can't just let the other players take it), and you're going to tick off your party members to no end, because not only can you not kill enemies, you can't let them do it either. And any normal campaign is not going to solely feature undead and evil outsiders. It will come up.



The math aside, and you're right my head math at 4 am was a little off, its not true that you can't allow your allies to kill anything. They simply suffer a -1 atk roll penalty for an hour/level if they do it within 120 feet of you. That's it. they want to kill something, they say "take a hike Zak! Come back in about an hour and we'll have let our hobgoblin friend here go on his merry way."

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-06, 09:02 AM
BoED has a level of existence consistent with the level to which Monkey Grip exists.

Shush! Or you will wake the sleeping giant of bad ideas!

martyboy74
2007-04-06, 09:05 AM
The math aside, and you're right my head math at 4 am was a little off, its not true that you can't allow your allies to kill anything. They simply suffer a -1 atk roll penalty for an hour/level if they do it within 120 feet of you. That's it. they want to kill something, they say "take a hike Zak! Come back in about an hour and we'll have let our hobgoblin friend here go on his merry way."

THAT'S NOT HOW EXALTED CHARACTERS WORK!
(Anyone have a picture of Morbo?)

Exalted characters are pure good. Letting people do that kind of things is not exalted.

Piccamo
2007-04-06, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by enderrocksonall http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2336212#post2336212)
The math aside, and you're right my head math at 4 am was a little off, its not true that you can't allow your allies to kill anything. They simply suffer a -1 atk roll penalty for an hour/level if they do it within 120 feet of you. That's it. they want to kill something, they say "take a hike Zak! Come back in about an hour and we'll have let our hobgoblin friend here go on his merry way."
THAT'S NOT HOW EXALTED CHARACTERS WORK!
(Anyone have a picture of Morbo?)

Exalted characters are pure good. Letting people do that kind of things is not exalted.
Yeah, it says in the Special text that if you knowingly let your allies kill someone like that you've broken your vow.

Zincorium
2007-04-06, 09:09 AM
The math aside, and you're right my head math at 4 am was a little off, its not true that you can't allow your allies to kill anything. They simply suffer a -1 atk roll penalty for an hour/level if they do it within 120 feet of you. That's it. they want to kill something, they say "take a hike Zak! Come back in about an hour and we'll have let our hobgoblin friend here go on his merry way."

That's vow of nonviolence. And you can't let them do it, you have to at least attempt to stop them.

You also have vow of peace. That ups the ante. You MUST take an incapacitated foe prisoner, or you have broken your vow. Period. If there is an incapacitated foe, and he dies at the hands of you or your allies, it's all over. That's the annoying part. It only works, at all, if your party is all hip to the exalted business and/or you fight only undead, constructs, evil outsiders, and enemies who will play nice.

Also, am I the only one who thinks it's complete BS that your allies take a morale penalty to their actions for doing something against an oath you took? Leaving aside the whole question of interfering directly with other characters, it leaves no room for discussion on whether a particular character would feel remorse at all. Sometimes, even good characters feel fully justified in removing a threat from the realm of the living, regardless of how another character feels about it.

enderrocksonall
2007-04-06, 09:12 AM
Yeah, it says in the Special text that if you knowingly let your allies kill someone like that you've broken your vow.


right but directly following that rule is a specific example of getting an oath of non interfearance from them which if they break that vow then they can get killed with no penalty. seems pretty fair to me since you have to knock them out in the first place.

Anyway forget the impact on the party guys. I meant for this character to be a solo NPC in the campaign I am running now.

Piccamo
2007-04-06, 09:16 AM
Its fine as an NPC. NPCs don't always have to follow the same rules. You want a level 8 challenge to wildshape as a level 15 druid? No problem, just don't give him too many other abilities.

enderrocksonall
2007-04-06, 09:16 AM
That's vow of nonviolence. And you can't let them do it, you have to at least attempt to stop them.

You also have vow of peace. That ups the ante. You MUST take an incapacitated foe prisoner, or you have broken your vow. Period. If there is an incapacitated foe, and he dies at the hands of you or your allies, it's all over. That's the annoying part. It only works, at all, if your party is all hip to the exalted business and/or you fight only undead, constructs, evil outsiders, and enemies who will play nice.

Also, am I the only one who thinks it's complete BS that your allies take a morale penalty to their actions for doing something against an oath you took? Leaving aside the whole question of interfering directly with other characters, it leaves no room for discussion on whether a particular character would feel remorse at all. Sometimes, even good characters feel fully justified in removing a threat from the realm of the living, regardless of how another character feels about it.

Vow of peace doesnt up the ante at all the restrictions are actually LESS stringient and spelled out than the restrictions for vow of nonviolence. They copy pasted the first part of the special section. The only way it is more restrictive is that you cant harm ANY living thing instead of just humanoids or monstrous humanoids, which are the only enemies nonviolence applies to BTW.

Zincorium
2007-04-06, 09:20 AM
right but directly following that rule is a specific example of getting an oath of non interfearance from them which if they break that vow then they can get killed with no penalty. seems pretty fair to me since you have to knock them out in the first place.

Anyway forget the impact on the party guys. I meant for this character to be a solo NPC in the campaign I am running now.

Right. NPC. You realize that NPCs are under no restriction on being legal characters, no? And contrariwise, aren't supposed to present more of a challenge than the CR you assign to them?

[Scrubbed]

Nevermore
2007-04-06, 09:21 AM
You are definitely not the only one Zincorium...

enderrocksonall
2007-04-06, 09:22 AM
Right. NPC. You realize that NPCs are under no restriction on being legal characters, no? And contrariwise, aren't supposed to present more of a challenge than the CR you assign to them?

If you're doing this as an 'oh look at this NPC I built, isn't he so shiiiiny...', then you need to do the following:
[Scrubbed]

Wow...This went fast in an ugly direction. Take a chill pill, i'm merely pointing out your misquotation.

brian c
2007-04-06, 09:23 AM
It's just you. Sure, you have a high AC, but Vow of Poverty weakens you very significantly in the long run, plus there's the problem of flying foes.

And, of course, vow of Peace/Nonviolence means your entire party has to change their playstyle, and you can't actually fight, so what's the point of having the AC?

A good thing to remember is that monks can deal nonlethal damage with their unarmed strikes at no penalty whatsoever; nonlethal damage is explicitly allowed by Vow of Peace so monks can fight with no penalty, they just have to not kill an incapacitated opponent. Also, Intuitive Attack from BoED lets you use Wis on attack rolls, increasing the monk's melee effectiveness. With improved Grapple as a monk bonus feat, this kind of build is valid and interesting to play. A Poverty/Peace monk will have higher AC compared to other players in a non-optimized, low magic or low gold (below WBL) campaign, and still have decent offensive abilities.

Back to the OP though, it should be noted that you can't pick up Dragon Disciple from Paladin//Monk; the stat boosts would be cool but you need spontaneous arcane spellcasting.

enderrocksonall
2007-04-06, 09:25 AM
Back to the OP though, it should be noted that you can't pick up Dragon Disciple from Paladin//Monk; the stat boosts would be cool but you need spontaneous arcane spellcasting.


Yah i remembered that 10 minutes after i put up that post, but a 3 level dip into Devotee will fix that and give a decent stat boost. Or just a 1 level dip into sorc.

enderrocksonall
2007-04-06, 09:27 AM
Also, am I the only one who thinks it's complete BS that your allies take a morale penalty to their actions for doing something against an oath you took? Leaving aside the whole question of interfering directly with other characters, it leaves no room for discussion on whether a particular character would feel remorse at all. Sometimes, even good characters feel fully justified in removing a threat from the realm of the living, regardless of how another character feels about it.


i guess the puppy eyes work REALLY well on some people!:smallbiggrin:

Zincorium
2007-04-06, 09:34 AM
Wow...This went fast in an ugly direction. Take a chill pill, i'm merely pointing out your misquotation.

Not in the post I quoted, and seriously, if you weren't obviously the DM, you would be grossly violating both the vow of nonviolence and of peace through letting your allies kill stuff, after the first time which you might get away without breaking your oath if you had no reason to believe they would. After that, you have too high of a wisdom score not to figure it out.

And as far as me taking a chill pill, it wouldn't make a difference. I'm not upset or angry or even highly annoyed. But saying that a particular NPC is really awesome on a message board would indeed make you boastful person. And if the only reason they're cool is because you gave them feats that only work well due to you being the DM and having full control over what happens, well, that's kind of sad.

If you were playing a real character, instead of statting out a piece of talking scenery, it might be worth props if you were interested in playing the character rather than how uber high your AC was. As it is, that's all you seemed to care about in the OP. Roleplaying > optimization. If you can get both, good, but never go for the second at the expense of the first, and that's what it looked like you were doing.

Indon
2007-04-06, 10:12 AM
Hmm... you know, an all Vow of Peace party would be quite interesting.

Poverty, that's something you do alone. Peace changes the group dynamic; I'd say it works best in conjunction with other teammates who have taken the same oath (or can readily function in a way commeasurate with the oath).

brian c
2007-04-06, 11:12 AM
Hmm... you know, an all Vow of Peace party would be quite interesting.

Poverty, that's something you do alone. Peace changes the group dynamic; I'd say it works best in conjunction with other teammates who have taken the same oath (or can readily function in a way commeasurate with the oath).

Agreed; I have a Poverty monk going on right now and I think I might take Vow of Peace, but only because I think my group could handle it. Well, the fighter may take exception to it, but I think he'd still be allowed to do lethal damage, just not allowed to kill.

JaronK
2007-04-06, 11:46 AM
All Vow of Peace/Poverty parties are hillarious. The party makeup is different... usually something like Druid (healing and tanking should an undead or golem show up), Beguiler (for dealing with mechanical traps and the like), and then a bunch of diplomancer characters (Bards, Marshals, and other charisma characters who max out diplomacy). Since everyone's got Vow of Poverty, you don't worry about wealth at all, so the usual motivations for needing to slay stuff in dungeons goes away. With Vow of Peace on everyone, you can calm everyone down and just talk out your differences. Pretty hilarious, and most pre-written campaigns are absolutely not designed for a party like that.

JaronK

Arbitrarity
2007-04-06, 12:03 PM
Or, you could make a monk who took improved natural attack at level 15, has a monk's belt, and then had a party caster use Greater Mighty Wallop.

12d10 fists, for hours/level!

Actually, I bet using imp natural attack that way is a bit debateable, but the monks fists say they count as natural and manufactured weapons for all spells and abilities.

Indon
2007-04-06, 12:07 PM
All Vow of Peace/Poverty parties are hillarious. The party makeup is different... usually something like Druid (healing and tanking should an undead or golem show up), Beguiler (for dealing with mechanical traps and the like), and then a bunch of diplomancer characters (Bards, Marshals, and other charisma characters who max out diplomacy). Since everyone's got Vow of Poverty, you don't worry about wealth at all, so the usual motivations for needing to slay stuff in dungeons goes away. With Vow of Peace on everyone, you can calm everyone down and just talk out your differences. Pretty hilarious, and most pre-written campaigns are absolutely not designed for a party like that.

JaronK

Ogre BBEG: "Ah, I see you cleaved your way through my goblin forces to finally meet me in combat!"

Monk: "Actually, we just knocked them out and tied them up."

Bard: "And we're here to negotiate for you to stop your attacks in exchange for a free trade agreement with the League of Nonhumans We've Beaten Up In The Past."

JaronK
2007-04-06, 12:37 PM
Ogre BBEG: "Ah, I see you cleaved your way through my goblin forces to finally meet me in combat!"

Monk: "Actually, we just knocked them out and tied them up."

Bard: "And we're here to negotiate for you to stop your attacks in exchange for a free trade agreement with the League of Nonhumans We've Beaten Up In The Past."

Yeah, that's basically it. Remember, the Diplomacy check to make someone your friend really isn't that high, especially if you've got time to make that check... and with that many overlaping Vow of Peace calming effects, you're going to have all the time in the world.

Ogre Overlord: Rawr! I shall slaughter you all!

Beguiler: Can't we talk about this?

Bard: Surely there's a better way.

Ogre Overlord: Urge to kill... falling... falling...

Cloistered Cleric: Why do you feel the need to slaughter people anyway? Did you not get enough attention as a child?

Ogre Overlord: I... I was the runt of the litter as a child. *Breaks down sobbing* Everyone always stole my things!

Marshal: That's terrible, here, let's talk about that. Would you like a cookie?

And then Ogre Overlord goes off to become an anger management counciler and lives happily ever after.

JaronK

elliott20
2007-04-06, 12:58 PM
ugh... I don't think there is a more humiliating way to defeating a BBEG than "Dr. Phil"ing the guy.

Latronis
2007-04-06, 01:03 PM
THAT'S NOT HOW EXALTED CHARACTERS WORK!
(Anyone have a picture of Morbo?)

Exalted characters are pure good. Letting people do that kind of things is not exalted.

what you mean exalted character actually do work?

brian c
2007-04-06, 01:06 PM
The Apostle of Peace from BoED is really nice for an NPC,since you said that's what this is for. Also, as Zinc said, NPCs don't really have to be legal, as long as they are appropriate strength for your party. You can give your NPC a +20 exalted bonus to AC if he's really holy, it's up to you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-06, 01:24 PM
Better way to roll a Monk:

Monk11/Fist of Zuoken9

Important Powers known: Expansion, Psionic Lion's Charge
Optional powers: Inertial Armor, Biofeedback, Force Screen, Empathic Transfer, Hostile

In short, manifest Expansion augmented to increase two size categories. Grab Improved Unarmed Combat to increase your unarmed damage another size category. Normally, you are doing 4d8. However, with Expansion up two sizes, you're actually doing 8d8. With Psionic Lion's Charge, you can get your full Flurry on a charge. Inertial Armor and Force Screen keep his AC up even though he is a Huge sized creature (+8 to AC unaugmented, possibly even higher).

Even better way to roll a monk:

Monk16/Fighter4

Grab a Monk's Belt, and get a wizard to cast Enlarge Person on you, then Permenancy it. Congratulations, you're doing 6d8 all day long without needing to expend PP. Even better, you've got a BAB of +16, which gives you an extra attack.

Best way to roll a monk:

Swordsage 20. Go unarmed variant which has monk unarmed attack numbers. Specialize in the four styles which have Favored Weapon: Unarmed.

brian c
2007-04-06, 01:32 PM
I had a thread a little while ago about a single class monk with Poverty+Peace, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38734). Got it up to an AC of 63 by 20th level by adding the Saint Template, and I know it can be higher with feats (even just with a +1 from dodge against a single enemy).

Toliudar
2007-04-06, 02:56 PM
Brilliant! I now want to have a vow of peace campaign where people just sit around and discuss their feelings, and then find cooperative ways around situations.

Oh wait. I'm in Varen Tai's paladins campaign. Same diff.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-07, 08:24 AM
Back to the discussion about the OP. The calculation about needing a Strongheart Halfling is flawed. VoPov grants +8/+6/+4/+2 to various stats. Putting the 8/6 into Wis/Dex respectively already gives you +7 to AC, without your base+racial Wis/Dex being taken into account.

Zincorium
2007-04-07, 08:31 AM
Back to the discussion about the OP. The calculation about needing a Strongheart Halfling is flawed. VoPov grants +8/+6/+4/+2 to various stats. Putting the 8/6 into Wis/Dex respectively already gives you +7 to AC, without your base+racial Wis/Dex being taken into account.

Vow of poverty gives you your first ability score increase at level 7, and it's only +2. The calculation was for getting an AC of 30 at level 5. Five is naturally less than seven, and therefore you have to use your original ability scores with the plus one all characters get at level 4.

You can get an AC of 30 at level five, but you must be a strongheart halfling and have incredibly good scores. That's all I was pointing out. Otherwise the ability modifiers or the bonus feats don't work out for getting all the way there at 5th.

Whether you misunderstood the claim that this was all at level 5 or the way that vow of poverty gives increases to ability scores, it's not a big deal but you do need to fact-check yourself before claiming someone else didn't.

Vaynor
2007-04-07, 09:23 AM
Step 1: Level 5 halfling monk
Step 2: Take Snatch Arrows feat, Vow of Poverty/nonviolence/peace
Step 3: Obtain fighter
Step 4: Strap self to said fighter's arm
Step 5: Congratulations, you are now a meat shield.

NullAshton
2007-04-07, 10:19 AM
Minor thing, in order to fly have you ever thought of having the WIZARD you should have cast fly on you? Hmmm... suddenly you can fly and you're not breaking vow of poverty. YAY!

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-07, 07:33 PM
Hmm. Level 5. Still not really impressed.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-07, 08:12 PM
its powerful and all, but flying stuff kills, and RPing that is killer

Quietus
2007-04-07, 10:31 PM
Step 1: Level 5 halfling monk
Step 2: Take Snatch Arrows feat, Vow of Poverty/nonviolence/peace
Step 3: Obtain fighter
Step 4: Strap self to said fighter's arm
Step 5: Congratulations, you are now a meat shield.

I AM PAINUS!!!

Yuki Akuma
2007-04-08, 04:41 PM
All Vow of Poverty party: "Oh no, a roc! We're doomed!"

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-08, 04:58 PM
All Vow of Poverty party: "Oh no, a roc! We're doomed!"

Can you do VoP with a wizard?

[edit]
I mean to say, can you have a VoP wizard and still get to prepare spells.

Yuki Akuma
2007-04-08, 05:04 PM
By the RAW? No. You could be a sorcerer, though.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-04-08, 05:04 PM
Bears said it sucks. Therefore, it sucks.

Vaynor
2007-04-08, 05:25 PM
Can you do VoP with a wizard?

[edit]
I mean to say, can you have a VoP wizard and still get to prepare spells.

Would it allow a holy symbol? Doesn't seem like it would count.

brian c
2007-04-08, 05:34 PM
Would it allow a holy symbol? Doesn't seem like it would count.

by RAW, no holy symbol. It's a pretty reasonable (and common I think) houserule to allow a carved wooden symbol though.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-08, 05:46 PM
What about a holy symbol you tattooed on your naked chest? Better yet- a scar tissue holy symbol.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-08, 08:16 PM
Bears said it sucks. Therefore, it sucks.

Precisely.

Ramza00
2007-04-08, 08:18 PM
What about a holy symbol you tattooed on your naked chest? Better yet- a scar tissue holy symbol.

That resurrects you after you die, even if you don't want to. And you can't remove the holy symbol, it is stuck with you for all of eternity :smallwink:

(Kudos anybody who gets the reference)

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-08, 08:20 PM
The Hyperion Cantos? That was some awesome @#$!.

TomTheRat
2007-04-08, 09:09 PM
A better question is: "Is Vow of Nonviolence solely included so that min/maxers can metagame their way to absurd stats and to irritate their fellow players?"

I posit yes.

JellyPooga
2007-04-08, 09:15 PM
That resurrects you after you die, even if you don't want to. And you can't remove the holy symbol, it is stuck with you for all of eternity :smallwink:

(Kudos anybody who gets the reference)

3 letters...PS:T

Ramza00
2007-04-08, 10:01 PM
It is the Hyperion Cantos (the holy symbol is the cruciform) not Planescape Torment

So what would the Shriek be in D&D? I am thinking psionic with the slayer prc...

TOAOMT
2007-04-09, 02:42 AM
alright, I'm pulling stuff from memory at this point but here goes. Assuming I have access to any supplement... here's what I got.


The Subduer
Female Halfling Monk 6

STR 10, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 14
AC: 34 (+5 Dex, +4 Wis, +1 Size, +6 exalted, +1 Deflection, +1 Monk, +6 Vow of Peace)
Attack Bonus: +10 (Weapon finesse, +4 Base, +5 Dex, +1 Size)
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Stunning Fist (DC 21 thanks to VoN), Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm
Important Skills: Sense Motive +13, Diplomacy +15 (synergy), Jump +11, Tumble +16, Balance +16
Saves: Fort +7 Ref + 11 Will +10


The idea is that she takes the defensive, wearing her opponent down with subdual damage while attempting to talk them down (assuming they're sentient). Later she'll take some stunning fist feats like sickening touch to make her enemies easier to bring down without killing. She's no idiot, she knows her allies won't necessarily see her side of things, which is why she finds ways to convince them to let the prisoner live. Leadership (to take them on as potential followers), or even the promise that they would be more useful alive than dead.

Deel
2007-04-09, 06:31 AM
What about a Sacred Fist with Vow of Poverty? You are already restricted from using any weapons, why not just give it all up? Sure, it's not that simple, magic items are made of win and awesome, but from a roleplay perspective it seems neat, and VoP does give some cool abilities. You then have spells to cover what you can't with magic items, you could pick up the travel domain to get fly and deal with flying creatures too(which is what I'm planning for a character, a wandering Sacred Fist of Fhalraghn.)

By RAW, it won't work, but as said before, there are ways to make holy symbols that cost nothing, so I'd think mostly any DM would be reasonable enough to allow it.

lord_khaine
2007-04-09, 06:43 AM
i dont have the book with me atm, but im 90% sure that you can get a holy symbol as a VoP cleric, the wizard might be a bit harder, but i guess you could allways spend all your feats on spell mastery :P

(edit) ok i was wrong about the holy symbol part, but i do think there is rules for branding your holy symbol into your skin somewhere.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-09, 07:30 AM
By RAW, it won't work, but as said before, there are ways to make holy symbols that cost nothing, so I'd think mostly any DM would be reasonable enough to allow it.

I'm telling you, scar tissue is the new silver.

brian c
2007-04-09, 08:40 AM
alright, I'm pulling stuff from memory at this point but here goes. Assuming I have access to any supplement... here's what I got.


The Subduer
Female Halfling Monk 6

STR 10, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 14
AC: 34 (+5 Dex, +4 Wis, +1 Size, +6 exalted, +1 Deflection, +1 Monk, +6 Vow of Peace)
Attack Bonus: +10 (Weapon finesse, +4 Base, +5 Dex, +1 Size)
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Stunning Fist (DC 21 thanks to VoN), Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm
Important Skills: Sense Motive +13, Diplomacy +15 (synergy), Jump +11, Tumble +16, Balance +16
Saves: Fort +7 Ref + 11 Will +10


The idea is that she takes the defensive, wearing her opponent down with subdual damage while attempting to talk them down (assuming they're sentient). Later she'll take some stunning fist feats like sickening touch to make her enemies easier to bring down without killing. She's no idiot, she knows her allies won't necessarily see her side of things, which is why she finds ways to convince them to let the prisoner live. Leadership (to take them on as potential followers), or even the promise that they would be more useful alive than dead.

Actually, one of the things forbidden by Vow of Peace are "pain-causing effects" which I'm pretty sure would include sickening touch.

Noneoyabizzness
2007-04-09, 10:19 AM
ugh... I don't think there is a more humiliating way to defeating a BBEG than "Dr. Phil"ing the guy.

how about having the bbeg finacially ruined, left destitute, forced to work odd jobs, then track him down and give him diseased hobo wraps to wear to die in the gutter, filthy, penniless and sad?

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-09, 12:27 PM
how about having the bbeg finacially ruined, left destitute, forced to work odd jobs, then track him down and give him diseased hobo wraps to wear to die in the gutter, filthy, penniless and sad?

Sounds rather... Charles Dickens.

Indon
2007-04-09, 02:52 PM
It is the Hyperion Cantos (the holy symbol is the cruciform) not Planescape Torment

So what would the Shriek be in D&D? I am thinking psionic with the slayer prc...

The Shrike, I think, would be mostly Construct HD...


...with crazy epic powers and a divine rank.

Noneoyabizzness
2007-04-09, 03:19 PM
Sounds rather... Charles Dickens.

what can I say, I'm a sucker for the classics.

Hypothetical
2007-04-09, 07:05 PM
Can you do VoP with a wizard?

[edit]
I mean to say, can you have a VoP wizard and still get to prepare spells.


In VoP it does specifically say that one of the very few items you are allowed to keep on your person is a bag of Spell Componets. I would personally include that to mean a Spell Book, otherwise the Componets are pretty farrking useless.

I'm personally running a Monk right now that is going the NV route to Apostle of Peace.

The one party based drawback to it is that they cannot intentionally kill an incapactitated enemy.

brian c
2007-04-09, 08:12 PM
In VoP it does specifically say that one of the very few items you are allowed to keep on your person is a bag of Spell Componets. I would personally include that to mean a Spell Book, otherwise the Componets are pretty farrking useless.

I'm personally running a Monk right now that is going the NV route to Apostle of Peace.

The one party based drawback to it is that they cannot intentionally kill an incapactitated enemy.

Spell components are used by sorcerors; a spellbook is definitely not a component.

TOAOMT
2007-04-09, 08:22 PM
If Pain touch wouldn't work on my build, I'm there that there are still others.

(Haven't mastered quotes yet)

Indon
2007-04-09, 08:42 PM
Spell components are used by sorcerors; a spellbook is definitely not a component.

Not to mention, spellbooks are worth tens of gold blank, and hundreds of gold full.