Overchannel Clarification

[Pex]

Does the Overchannel ability of Evoker Wizard care about the listed spell level printed in ink or the spell slot used to cast it for all its statistics?

[calebrus]

Does the Overchannel ability of Evoker Wizard care about the listed spell level printed in ink or the spell slot used to cast it for all its statistics?

Slot used.
When you use a higher level slot to cast a spell, that spell literally becomes the appropriate level in every respect.
A fireball in a 7th level slot is a 7th level spell.
(Globe of Invulnerability is a specific beats general example of this not being true 100% of the time, but in every other case it is true)

I will also note that by the wording of the Overchannel ability, cantrips are free to overchannel. But that was specifically stated as not being intended, and errata in the future will likely tell you to add one die to the overchannel damage for them (as was suggested as the present fix for DMs who don't want free overchanneled cantrips in their game).

[Logical DM]

Slot used.
When you use a higher level slot to cast a spell, that spell literally becomes the appropriate level in every respect.
A fireball in a 7th level slot is a 7th level spell.
(Globe of Invulnerability is a specific beats general example of this not being true 100% of the time, but in every other case it is true)

I will also note that by the wording of the Overchannel ability, cantrips are free to overchannel. But that was specifically stated as not being intended, and errata in the future will likely tell you to add one die to the overchannel damage for them (as was suggested as the present fix for DMs who don't want free overchanneled cantrips in their game).

Is that much of a problem? It still doesn't reach warlock levels of damage, and it's not like the other evoker features are amazing - is there a problem with having good cantrip damage when you're paying a reasonably opportunity cost for it?

[pwykersotz]

Is that much of a problem? It still doesn't reach warlock levels of damage, and it's not like the other evoker features are amazing - is there a problem with having good cantrip damage when you're paying a reasonably opportunity cost for it?

It's often better than the Warlock. Empowered Evocation gives an identical advantage of adding casting stat to damage, the only advantage to EB is that it gains 4x casting stat which maxes at 20 (barring infinite tomes and the like). Combine with a cantrip like Poison Spray and given that a successful save deals half damage thanks to Potent Cantrip, and you have 26 damage on a successful save, 53 on a failure. Compare to EB which averages 42 damage on hit, 0 on miss under the same circumstances.

[Ashrym]

It's often better than the Warlock. Empowered Evocation gives an identical advantage of adding casting stat to damage, the only advantage to EB is that it gains 4x casting stat which maxes at 20 (barring infinite tomes and the like). Combine with a cantrip like Poison Spray and given that a successful save deals half damage thanks to Potent Cantrip, and you have 26 damage on a successful save, 53 on a failure. Compare to EB which averages 42 damage on hit, 0 on miss under the same circumstances.

Empowered evocation doesn't work on poison spray because it's an conjuration cantrip. It's 48 damage on a failed save and 24 on a save with overchannel and potent cantrip. Most players add hex into agonizing blast for 56 damage but that is a bit questionable. The duration makes it easy to do but the concentration requirement is often spent better on other spells.

Given the range on poison spray I would consider that more risky and a back up to firebolt, which does get empowered evocation for 45 at range, and is just a smidge above the 42 on agonizing blast. I would also keep in mind that hex isn't the only potential per attack bonus available in a team game so something like crusader's mantle is more effect with eldritch blast and not just hex.

It's a tough call just looking at the cantrips. Where I see the advantage for the evoker is in empowered evocation and overchannel being options outside of cantrips.

[Logical DM]

It's often better than the Warlock. Empowered Evocation gives an identical advantage of adding casting stat to damage, the only advantage to EB is that it gains 4x casting stat which maxes at 20 (barring infinite tomes and the like). Combine with a cantrip like Poison Spray and given that a successful save deals half damage thanks to Potent Cantrip, and you have 26 damage on a successful save, 53 on a failure. Compare to EB which averages 42 damage on hit, 0 on miss under the same circumstances.

Actual stat comparisons:
Level 14 eldritch blast 3(1d10+1d6+5)=42
Level 14 firebolt 30+5=35
Level 17 eldritch blast 4(1d10+1d6+5)=56
Level 17 firebolt 40+5=45

Eldritch blast does better damage and is much less commonly resisted.

[MeeposFire]

Actual stat comparisons:
Level 14 eldritch blast 3(1d10+1d6+5)=42
Level 14 firebolt 30+5=35
Level 17 eldritch blast 4(1d10+1d6+5)=56
Level 17 firebolt 40+5=45

Eldritch blast does better damage and is much less commonly resisted.

To be fair you should list a caveat that the damage you are listing costs from 25-50% (depending on what level you are) of your 5th level/lower spell usage per day (assuming that you constantly use hex all day every time you recharge from a short rest) and of course your concentration during that time. If you take that idea and let the wizard use similar amounts of resources I am not sure that the warlock comes out ahead as 25-50% spell resources and concentration can get you a lot mileage with the wizard.

Still even with the hex removed the damage is still on average in the favor of the warlock, just in a smaller amount. It also has the fighter v rogue discussion of whether it is better to have the one large hit with lots of dice or more smaller hits.

[Logical DM]

To be fair you should list a caveat that the damage you are listing costs from 25-50% (depending on what level you are) of your 5th level/lower spell usage per day (assuming that you constantly use hex all day every time you recharge from a short rest) and of course your concentration during that time.
But you don't need to. At that point it lasts 8 hours, unless you lose concentration you can just hex a mouse at the start of the day. It's certainly not going to be 25% of your resources, and it's an integral part of using eldritch blast since it scales so well.


If you take that idea and let the wizard use similar amounts of resources I am not sure that the warlock comes out ahead as 25-50% spell resources and concentration can get you a lot mileage with the wizard.
Yes, it can. The wizard's a better class, all the warlock is really good for is single target damage - a warlock 2/sorcerer x can reliably fire 8 blasts of 14 damage each per round, you run out of foes before spell points.

[pwykersotz]

I missed Poison Spray being conjuration, I must have been tired. My apologies. That said:

1. Accounting for Hex is unreasonable. It's a selectable spell, not a hard-coded class feature, and it has its own weaknesses.
2. 'Less commonly resisted' is meaningless if you're DM doesn't use excessive Demons and Devils (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18605568&postcount=28).
3. I said 'often' better, if you recall. Not exclusively better. Very often having the guarantee of half damage is a desired effect.
4. This is very high at-will damage output. In my opinion it should not be allowed without the flaw unless the class is found to be lacking in other areas.

[I'm back]

I missed Poison Spray being conjuration, I must have been tired. My apologies. That said:
1. Accounting for Hex is unreasonable. It's a selectable spell, not a hard-coded class feature, and it has its own weaknesses.
2. 'Less commonly resisted' is meaningless if you're DM doesn't use excessive Demons and Devils (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18605568&postcount=28).
3. I said 'often' better, if you recall. Not exclusively better. Very often having the guarantee of half damage is a desired effect.
4. This is very high at-will damage output. In my opinion it should not be allowed without the flaw unless the class is found to be lacking in other areas.
1. It's not unreasonable. It's a level 1 warlock only spell clearly meant for empowering eldritch blast, the warlock (or, more realistically, warlock 2/sorcerer x) will pretty much always have it up.
2. There are 77 fire resistant or immune monsters in the DMG, and a damn sight less than than demons and devils. It's the second most common after poison.
3. Except that doesn't work with evocation, there are no evocation cantrips that have a save - potent cantrip and empowered evocation can never be used on the same spell.
4. See above, evoker really isn't that hot to begin with. Takes a long while to be worth anything, overchannel's the payoff.

[pwykersotz]

1. It's not unreasonable. It's a level 1 warlock only spell clearly meant for empowering eldritch blast, the warlock (or, more realistically, warlock 2/sorcerer x) will pretty much always have it up.
2. There are 77 fire resistant or immune monsters in the DMG, and a damn sight less than than demons and devils. It's the second most common after poison.
3. Except that doesn't work with evocation, there are no evocation cantrips that have a save - potent cantrip and empowered evocation can never be used on the same spell.
4. See above, evoker really isn't that hot to begin with. Takes a long while to be worth anything, overchannel's the payoff.

1. Unless dispelled, countered, hit with something that breaks concentration, or the Warlock has a better use of his slot. Situational, not guaranteed.
2. The linked post overcomes your objection fairly well, I'll not restate it.
3. Another facepalm for my own forgetfulness. Nicely pointed out, I'm not as deep down the rabbit hole on this as I thought, I recall this being discussed but I forgot it.
4. Evoker is fine. AoE is often pointed to as a Wizard's strength, and this improves it. It's not the be-all-end-all of subclasses, but it is competitive and even high-powered compared to many other options.

[I'm back]

1. Unless dispelled, countered, hit with something that breaks concentration, or the Warlock has a better use of his slot. Situational, not guaranteed.
2. The linked post overcomes your objection fairly well, I'll not restate it.
3. Another facepalm for my own forgetfulness. Nicely pointed out, I'm not as deep down the rabbit hole on this as I thought, I recall this being discussed but I forgot it.
4. Evoker is fine. AoE is often pointed to as a Wizard's strength, and this improves it. It's not the be-all-end-all of subclasses, but it is competitive and even high-powered compared to many other options.
1. If he's eldritch blasting, he's using hex for the spell slot. It's only a level 1 spell anyway, it's not like he's using those sorcerer slots on much else.
2. But it doesn't. It doesn't make fire invalid, but it does make it a fair bit less reliable than eldritch blast.
3. Yep. Features 6 and 10 do not interact at all.
4. It really isn't much of an improvement, the other abilities are fairly meh.

[pwykersotz]

1. If he's eldritch blasting, he's using hex for the spell slot. It's only a level 1 spell anyway, it's not like he's using those sorcerer slots on much else.
2. But it doesn't. It doesn't make fire invalid, but it does make it a fair bit less reliable than eldritch blast.
3. Yep. Features 6 and 10 do not interact at all.
4. It really isn't much of an improvement, the other abilities are fairly meh.

1. Nothing more to say here. Our argument has become circular. You think it would always be there. I do not.
2. Also full circle here. "Less commonly resisted is meaningless without high Fiend use." It's situational, and for 9 creatures, fire is a distinct advantage.
3. :smallsmile:
4. I'm afraid I can't really meaningfully respond to this...you didn't really put forward anything other than "Nuh uh".

My personal opinions on it remain unchanged from my initial post. Letting Overchannel affect cantrips for free is not reasonable just because the singular best class in the game for cantrip damage (coveted for a dip by a TON of people on these boards) can do similar damage. That's akin to considering the Druid capstone to be the best balance point.

Now that said, it might be reasonable for other reasons, up to and including the DM running a high-power late-level game. But I stick by my reasoning with regard to the post to which I responded.

[Pex]

Thanks. Got my answer.

An Evoker with 'infinite' maximized Cantrips doesn't bother me at all. I call it a feature, not a bug. Even when the enemy has it, for I'd certainly prefer being attacked by a maximized Cantrip every round than the alternative of whatever more powerful spells. It would still hurt, though.

[Chronos]

Note that, unless you use a "real" spell first, overchanneling all of your cantrips does eliminate the possibility of overchanneling a "real" spell. If you use your overchanneled Fire Bolt ten times, then tried to cast an overchanneled Fireball, you'd end up taking 36d12 unresistable damage. Given that it's more common to fight one's hardest battles at the end of the day (a boss, for instance, that you have to go through his minions to reach), you might be better off just saving your overchannel, anyway.

[Pex]

Note that, unless you use a "real" spell first, overchanneling all of your cantrips does eliminate the possibility of overchanneling a "real" spell. If you use your overchanneled Fire Bolt ten times, then tried to cast an overchanneled Fireball, you'd end up taking 36d12 unresistable damage. Given that it's more common to fight one's hardest battles at the end of the day (a boss, for instance, that you have to go through his minions to reach), you might be better off just saving your overchannel, anyway.

I know that. I always planned on overchannelling a Fireball or something before I go into cantrips. I'd use it first for a combat it would matter. However, there is point to just using it for cantrips all day to conserve spells yet still do potent damage until such time as to unleash the big guns, which include non-damaging non-evocation spells.

[Chronos]

Come to think of it, the issue about order of casting is independent of the question about cantrips. Overchanneling a Meteor Storm followed by a Fireball deals much less backlash than the reverse, which doesn't quite sound right to me (as in, I know that's the rule, but it doesn't seem like it should be the rule). Surely, a caster who's cast both of those spells has exerted himself equally no matter which order he casts them in, no? And casting a single overchanneled Meteor Storm seems like it ought to be more taxing than two overchanneled Burning Hands, yet the second hurts you while the first doesn't.

[Pex]

Can't overchannel Meteor Storm. Can only overchannel spells of 5th level and below.

[Chronos]

Ah, I overlooked that. OK, then, pretend I said some 5th-level spell, then. The issue is still there, just not quite as extreme.

Though I'll admit I'm not quite sure how to design the feature to prevent this.