The Invisible Blade [Rogue Archetype] [PEACH]

[Thanatos 51-50]

So, I've always been quite a fan, flavour-wise of the Invisible Blade Prestige class in 3.5, although, mechanically, to call it disappointing would be an understatement. The idea of a quick, cool, intelligent probably-rogue fighting unarmoured with quite possibly some of the weakest weapons in the game was always rather appealing, and it gave inspiration for all sorts of Dirty Fighter-style characters.
I recently got my dirty mitts on the PhB for 5th edition and, with the introduction of subclasses in D&D 5th edition, and especially the Way of Shadow subclass for the Monk, I started thinking of a way to incorporate the Invisible Blade. Here are my first thoughts on the subject. I'm not really married to any of the ideas herein except that the sub-class have a use for Intelligence (A stat which is sadly lacking relevance in 5e, as far as I can tell), and that it have an Unarmoured Defense feature.

Rogue Archetype, Invisible Blade

Unarmoured Defense (3rd) -- An Invisible Blade is a student of personal combat, and has extensively studied a variety of fighting styles. He is able to draw on this vast reservoir of knowledge to better anticipate where an opponent's blows might land, and simply not be there. As a result, when wearing no armour, your AC becomes 10 + Your DEX bonus + Your INT Bonus. You May not gain this benefit when wearing a shield.

Cunning Weapon (3rd) -- The Invisble Blade is a master of one particular weapon -- usually, as the name implies, a blade of some sort. Pick one simple or light melee weapon with which you have proficiency. You may use your INT bonus in addition to your STR or DEX bonus to calculate to-hit and Damage. Additionally, you may treat this weapon as though it has Finesse.

Clever Feint (9th) -- You move with fluid precision, creating the illusion of openings and holes in your fighting style where there are none. When you strike an opponent with your Cunning Weapon, they have Disadvantage on attack rolls against you until the start of your next turn. Your opponent may make an Intelligence save at DC 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + Your Int Bonus to ignore this effect.

Weapon Expertise (13th) -- Your Proficiency Bonus is doubled for your Cunning Weapon.

The Upper Hand (17th) -- You are always considered to have Advantage against an enemy when using your Cunning Weapon.

Draft Two: The Third:
Unarmoured Defense (3rd) -- Your Armour Class becomes 10 + Dexterity Modifier + Intelligence Modifier when wearing no armour. You cannot use this ability while wearing a shield.

Cunning Weapon (3rd) -- Choose a Melee Weapon you are proficient with that has the Light property. You may not choose your Unarmed Attack. This is considered your Cunning weapon. You may use your INT modifier in place of your Dexterity or Strength Modifiers and you may treat this weapon as though it has the Finesse property. You may use a d6 in place of the weapon's normal damage die.

Clever Defense (9th) -- When you successfully hit an enemy with your Cunning Weapon in melee combat, you may use your Clever Action to have that enemy make all their attack rolls against you with Disadvantage.

Tangential Learning (13th) -- At this level, you may gain a number of non-weapon, non-armour proficiencies equal to your natural Intelligence modifier. Additionally, you may choose to use your Intelligence modifier for Athletics, Heal, and Perception checks, as well as Wisdom Saving Throws. This ability is not retroactive, so if your Intelligence modifier later increases, you do not gain additional proficiencies.

Lasting Injury (17th) -- The Invisible Blade has become so adept at causing injury with his Cunning Weapon that it keeps hurting, even after the blow is struck. When dealing Sneak Attack Damage with your Cunning Weapon, you may choose to forgo rolling up to half of your sneak attack dice. If you do, beginning on your next turn, the enemy thus struck takes necrotic damage equal to your intelligence modifier for each sneak attack die sacrificed. This damage lasts until a number of rounds equal to your intelligence modifier (Minimum of one) have passed, the enemy makes a Constitution Saving Throw, or is on the receiving end of a Heal check with a DC of 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + Your Intelligence Modifier.
You may use this ability once every short rest.

[Amechra]

Weapon Expertise is... excessive. That's a +4~6 bonus to attack rolls right there in a system that doesn't do large bonuses to attack rolls.

Actually, in general, this subclass is straight-out broken; adding your Intelligence bonus to attack rolls and damage is a no-no, especially not at 3rd level. Of the features you get, Clever Feint and Unarmored Defense are the only ones that look somewhat balanced.

Assuming you mainline Intelligence, this subclass gives up to a +11 bonus to attack rolls, +5 to damage, always-on Advantage on your attacks, and handing out Disadvantage like candy. A bit much, don't you think?

In general, Rogues actually have a pretty good "core" combat chassis; sure, Sneak Attack is once per turn, but it can also be used against anything. Consequently, Rogue subclasses generally hand out utility stuff, like an Assassin's awesome disguises or a Thief's ability to essentially run up walls.

May I suggest the following as a replacement for Cunning Weapon that makes it less crazy bonkers?

Cunning Weapon: At 3rd level, select a simple or martial melee weapon with the Light tag to be your Cunning Weapon; you gain proficiency with that weapon if you did not have it already. You consider your Cunning Weapon to have the Finesse tag, and may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Dexterity or Strength modifiers when making attacks with that weapon.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Weapon Expertise is... excessive. That's a +4~6 bonus to attack rolls right there in a system that doesn't do large bonuses to attack rolls.

Actually, in general, this subclass is straight-out broken; adding your Intelligence bonus to attack rolls and damage is a no-no, especially not at 3rd level. Of the features you get, Clever Feint and Unarmored Defense are the only ones that look somewhat balanced.

Assuming you mainline Intelligence, this subclass gives up to a +11 bonus to attack rolls, +5 to damage, always-on Advantage on your attacks, and handing out Disadvantage like candy. A bit much, don't you think?

Yeah, I was kind of getting that read myself, which is one of the reasons I posted it up for other people to see, to negate my stupid brain making things cheesy.


In general, Rogues actually have a pretty good "core" combat chassis; sure, Sneak Attack is once per turn, but it can also be used against anything. Consequently, Rogue subclasses generally hand out utility stuff, like an Assassin's awesome disguises or a Thief's ability to essentially run up walls.

May I suggest the following as a replacement for Cunning Weapon that makes it less crazy bonkers?

That's actually one of the reasons this is a very combat-orientated subclass. I feel like there aren't many options for the "Dirty fighter" style rogue which I like to play, but maybe that's just me.

And please offer suggestions! That's why we're here!


Cunning Weapon: At 3rd level, select a simple or martial melee weapon with the Light tag to be your Cunning Weapon; you gain proficiency with that weapon if you did not have it already. You consider your Cunning Weapon to have the Finesse tag, and may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Dexterity or Strength modifiers when making attacks with that weapon.

Can we change this to "Simple Melee Weapon without the Two-handed Property Or Martial Melee Weapon with the Light Property?" :smalltongue:
Okay, sorry, that's me being selfish and wanting to make the quarterstaff a viable choice. It had Finesse in an early part of the playtest and I loved my little Quarterstaff Rogue to pieces.
I like your suggestion better. I really do, the only reason mine was different was because I wanted this to feel like an addition to Roguishness and not a lateral move (Rogues are probably already stacking DEX and moving to INT could be seen as a waste)

...
Perhaps instead of Weapon Expertise, we could make some Skill proficiencies into Intelligence checks instead of Dexterity ones?
But then it comes way too late in the rogue's carrear to be actually useful.

I'll think of something.

[Amechra]

Hmm... Maybe they don't need to become pure Intelligence; they'll already want it to be high to get good AC, after all.

Maybe crib some ideas from the Hunter Ranger and Battlemaster Fighters?

To shamelessly shill, you can steal any features you like from my Harlequin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391539-Madness-Domain-amp-The-Harlequin-Roguish-Archetype-PEACH&p=18618624#post18618624) subclass.

[DiBastet]

I'm a little on the conservative side of subclasses, so let me give my opinions:

Unarmoured Defense: Ok

Cunning Weapon: Use what was already posted here. This isn't the system for big numbers anyway. Being able to use INT with the weapons is ability enough.

Clever Feint: You should try to weave your subclass into the class better. Instead of a save DC, you could say that the rogue may use his cunning action to take the Dodge action on his turn, but it only works against an opponent that he attacked this turn. Achieve the same effect while trying to look like part of the class.

Tell you the truth, I think you should go in another direction actually. The original prestige class was all about dual dagger feinting combat, and the question is: How can I make this subclass about it while using this new game mechanics?

If you look past the abilities, the rogue works more or less like this:

3- Proficiency ability: Your learn how to use something new. Unnarmored defense fits perfectly here.
3- Cunning Action expansion: Assassin is the exception, but both thief and arcane trickster do it. Another way to use your bonus action would be good.
9- Improvement to something that you already could do
13-A really new ability, something you couldn't do before. That's the level the arcane trickster can feint people as bonus action. Since this is not his thing, I think it would be safe to give the invisible blade something similar at 9th instead of 13th.
17-Strike ability: a new way of dealing pain. Other subclasses do it once per combat or once per short rest.

Using that framework, maybe you could do something like this

3 - Unnarmored defense
3 - When you use cunning action you can also make a off-hand attack? Or be the exception like the assassin and something like this? "You may add your attribute modifier to the damage roll of your offhand attack, but only when wielding daggers"?
9 - With cunning action chooses an enemy and receives advantage against him for the rest of your turn; based on arcane trickster. Maybe not give it earlier and give some much needed skill ability? INT to bluff or intimidate, allowing you to use daggers in more ways?
13 - The other ability you didn't choose for 9th level.
17 - To fit with the class I think that somethink like this would be ok: "you can make two sneak attacks on the same creature on your turn, but must be wielding two daggers. Can only be used once per encounter / short rest / creature"

Well, hope you enjoy the brainstorming.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I have updated the Original Post with the new draft, which will be copy-pasted in total here for completeness' sake, and to ping any thread subscriptions:
Draft Two:
Unarmoured Defense (3rd) -- Your Armour Class becomes 10 + Dexterity Modifier + Intelligence Modifier when wearing no armour. You cannot use this ability while wearing a shield.
Justification -- It's really a core feature of the class, guys.

Cunning Weapon (3rd) -- Choose a Melee Weapon you are proficient with that has the Light property. You may not choose your Unarmed Attack. This is considered your Cunning weapon. You may use your INT modifier in place of your Dexterity or Strength Modifiers and you may treat this weapon as though it has the Finesse property. You may use a d6 in place of the weapon's normal damage die.
Justification -- The Original Flavour of the original class was all about using what were easily the weakest weapons effectively in close-quarters combat. Light Simple weapons fill this niche easily. Wording it this way has the Invisible Blade specialize in a single weapon, instead of pigeonholing them all into daggers like the original class. Giving the weapon Finesse allows it to be used with Sneak Attacks without creating an unnecessary exemption to the Sneak Attack rules. Making the damage die a d6 creates an equivalence across all the eligible weapons, keeping every Invisible Blade from choosing their shortsword or Hand axe.

Clever Defense (9th) -- When you successfully hit an enemy with your Cunning Weapon in melee combat, you may use your Clever Action to Dodge against that Enemy. That enemy must target you with their next attack this round (Or include you amongst the targets, if casting a hostile spell), unless they succeed at an Intelligence Saving Throw with a DC of 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + Your Intelligence Modifier
Justification -- This further Specializes the Invisible Blade into a Duelist role, shoring up their lack of hit dice, and making them more generally survivable in a melee slugfest. It would also allow an Invisble Blade to "Lock Down" a single foe, taking some of the tanking duties off the Fighter.

Insight to Movement (13th) -- At this level, you may add your Intelligence bonus to all Dexterity, Strength, and Constitution skills and saving throws you are proficient in. This stacks with Expertise.
Justification -- A Rogue is still a skill monkey at heart, and adding all these Intelligence bonuses to all these straight-up combat checks seems a little bit out of place. Plus, it makes High-INT Rogues better at skills, like they were in 3.X

The Upper Hand (17th) -- Enemies are considered to be Vulnerable to your Cunning Weapon. If they would normally be resistant to it, you negate their Resistance, instead. This only applies to the Slashing, Piercing, or Bludgeoning damage from the weapon, intself, and not any elemental damage it may also deal -- such as with a Flaming Dagger.
Justification -- MurderDeathKill Damage Damage Damage. In the Original Prestige Class, the Rogue would get "Extra" Sneak attack dice with their dagger, but they're no longer required to lose out on Sneak Attack dice. This allows the Rogue to deal massive damage with his weapon of choice (And only his weapon of choice), while not simply saying he always gets to Sneak Attack, allowing for a co-ordinated team to really pile on the pain.

[Amnoriath]

1. Cunning Defense is good but the weapon just doesn't make all that much sense. The finesse is fine but what is the purpose of going Intelligence for a weapon? Dexterity is still going to be a key ability score and still was for the original.
2. The Dodge action isn't against a single foe. It is like full defense inflicting disadvantage on attacks against you and gaining advantage on Dexterity save against all opponents you see.
3. Insight to Movement is just a flat no. Expertise has a bit too much of a numbers advantage with this and you are getting on top of your saves. It also isn't all that true to the original.
4. Automatic damage like that is just lazy and too much. The Death Strike required a couple of things and allowed a constitution save to keep from doubling the damage. This outpaces that like nothing.

[Thanatos 51-50]

4. Automatic damage like that is just lazy and too much. The Death Strike required a couple of things and allowed a constitution save to keep from doubling the damage. This outpaces that like nothing.

Huh? My reading is that it does double damage on a successful save, and automatic death on a failed one.
I may have read it incorrectly.
I'm AFB, so I'll re-read it when I get the chance.

[Amnoriath]

Huh? My reading is that it does double damage on a successful save, and automatic death on a failed one.
I may have read it incorrectly.
I'm AFB, so I'll re-read it when I get the chance.

1. No, it doesn't auto-kill. "Starting at 17th level, you become a master of instant death. When you attack and hit a creature that is surprised, it must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, double the damage of your attack against the creature." Quivering Palm reduces a creature to 0 hit points on a failed save or 10d10 necrotic damage on a successful one.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Oh. Oh Cruel Merciless Gods, no.
I would have never written it that way had I known.
Yuck.

Any suggestions?

[DiBastet]

Well, you have some glaring problems here, and what I would call "style" issues. First you seem totally adamant on INT to everything, even if that isn't part of the original prestige class. You want that, and thats final even if untrue to source material, so I won't comment on that.

Cunning Weapon: I won't touch the "why" question for the reasons above. I would change the style of the wording something along the lines of "you treat all Light weapons as finesse, and may use INT to atk and damage with them" to make it simpler.

Cunning Defese: Ditch the second sentence; there's no reason to explain the Dodge rules, and the save is really not needed. The monk may use Dodge as bonus action with the limitation of Ki. Your subclasse may use dodge as bonus action with the limitation of only working against chosen enemy. You could also change the wording to something more simple. Maybe "you may use your cunning action to use Cunning Defense. Cunning defense works like the Dodge action, but only applies against an opponent you damaged with sneak attack this turn" or something like that.

Insight to Movement: No. If you think an ability giving a bonus to a roll would be nice, that's a bad ability in this system. If you must keep this feel just make it as an ability that allow you to change the physical skills to be int based. Still that's not by a long shot faithful to source (a dagger wielding maniac that appeared on complete warrior that made dual wielding daggers viable)

The Upper Hand: Hm... no. I may be wrong, but I feel you're struggling a little with the "feel" of 5e design here. You might want to take a look at other subclasses capstones and maybe adapt something, you know, start small before you develop a better grasp...

[Thanatos 51-50]

Well, you have some glaring problems here, and what I would call "style" issues. First you seem totally adamant on INT to everything, even if that isn't part of the original prestige class. You want that, and thats final even if untrue to source material, so I won't comment on that.

That may be my mind focusing in on Unfettered Defense and its Int Bonus, trying to expand it into the class as a whole. My copy of Complete Warrior is currently AWOL, so I'm working from half-remembered information and a random, possibly inaccurate, wiki page. Plus, I like the idea of Intelligence being directly used in combat, and not for something as utterly boring as "Cast spells better."
I may not like casters much.


Cunning Weapon: I won't touch the "why" question for the reasons above. I would change the style of the wording something along the lines of "you treat all Light weapons as finesse, and may use INT to atk and damage with them" to make it simpler.

Straight power boost. If we bring this guy sinking to the depths of Underpowered, I'll consider it.


Cunning Defense: Ditch the second sentence; there's no reason to explain the Dodge rules, and the save is really not needed. The monk may use Dodge as bonus action with the limitation of Ki. Your subclass may use dodge as bonus action with the limitation of only working against chosen enemy. You could also change the wording to something more simple. Maybe "you may use your cunning action to use Cunning Defense. Cunning defense works like the Dodge action, but only applies against an opponent you damaged with sneak attack this turn" or something like that.

Straight nerf. Without forcing the enemy to target the foe he's at a disadvantage to hit, the disadvantage is less likely to come into play against half-reasonable opponents. Decent as a kind of one-round aggro wipe against intelligent creatures, I guess? Agreed that the verbiage needs to be reworked.


Insight to Movement: No. If you think an ability giving a bonus to a roll would be nice, that's a bad ability in this system. If you must keep this feel just make it as an ability that allow you to change the physical skills to be int based. Still that's not by a long shot faithful to source (a dagger wielding maniac that appeared on complete warrior that made dual wielding daggers viable)

"Stacking INT onto things" might be coming from the greedy little 3.X player in me. I want this level to be a non-direct-combat ability here, and the other Rogue Subclasses get Cool Things (tm) here, and I'm struggling on how to incorporate one.


The Upper Hand: Hm... no. I may be wrong, but I feel you're struggling a little with the "feel" of 5e design here. You might want to take a look at other subclasses capstones and maybe adapt something, you know, start small before you develop a better grasp...

As mentioned above, this only exists in its current form because I catastrophically misread the Assassin Subclass' level 17 ability. In keeping with the "More Damage" theme present in 17th level abilities, I'm trying to think of a way to port over Bleeding Wound, but without a similar ongoing damage mechanic and without the monster manual to hold up against my damage, I have no idea how big or small to make my numbers.

[DiBastet]

The way I see it, being a rogue and all, Cunning Defense should work not as a "tanking" mechanic, but as a "defensive cooldown" of sorts. While good tanks say "attack me, if you attack my allies I won't let / will make it harder for you"; this one looks kinda a misdirection that says "if you try to retaliate me for sneak attacking you, you won't be able to". Also it makes the dual wielding daggers guys really scary to face alone on the alley, and I gotta say, I like that image!

[Thanatos 51-50]

Draft Three is up, and comes paired with this post, which will contain the entirety of Draft Three, in order to raise awareness and pop subscription notifications.

Unarmoured Defense (3rd) -- Your Armour Class becomes 10 + Dexterity Modifier + Intelligence Modifier when wearing no armour. You cannot use this ability while wearing a shield.

Cunning Weapon (3rd) -- Choose a Melee Weapon you are proficient with that has the Light property. You may not choose your Unarmed Attack. This is considered your Cunning weapon. You may use your INT modifier in place of your Dexterity or Strength Modifiers and you may treat this weapon as though it has the Finesse property. You may use a d6 in place of the weapon's normal damage die.

Clever Defense (9th) -- When you successfully hit an enemy with your Cunning Weapon in melee combat, you may use your Clever Action to have that enemy make all their attack rolls against you with Disadvantage.

Tangential Learning (13th) -- At this level, you may gain a number of non-weapon, non-armour proficiencies equal to your natural Intelligence modifier. Additionally, you may choose to use your Intelligence modifier for Athletics, Heal, and Perception checks, as well as Wisdom Saving Throws. This ability is not retroactive, so if your Intelligence modifier later increases, you do not gain additional proficiencies.

Lasting Injury (17th) -- The Invisible Blade has become so adept at causing injury with his Cunning Weapon that it keeps hurting, even after the blow is struck. When dealing Sneak Attack Damage with your Cunning Weapon, you may choose to forgo rolling up to half of your sneak attack dice. If you do, beginning on your next turn, the enemy thus struck takes necrotic damage equal to your intelligence modifier for each sneak attack die sacrificed. This damage lasts until a number of rounds equal to your intelligence modifier (Minimum of one) have passed, the enemy makes a Constitution Saving Throw, or is on the receiving end of a Heal check with a DC of 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + Your Intelligence Modifier.
You may use this ability once every short rest.