Forum Challenge: Best Character For "Hardcore" Rest Variant Rules?

[McBars]

I just saw this on the WotC Forum and thought it would be interesting to submit as a challenge to some of our more talented optimization savants.

A friend of mine just signed on to play in a gritty, dark, realistic campaign world using several of the "hardcore" variant rules from the DMG (see below.) He wanted to know what types of characters would be the least affected by these, particularly the altered rest mechanics. Real "torture the PCs" type of stuff. The forum as a whole is vastly better equipped to answer his question than I am so, what types of builds would you gravitate towards given the following house rules (see below) and why? Which would you avoid?

Campaign house rules:
Lv 1, standard array stats, NO Half orcs NO Half elves. All other races are good to go. Feats are available.

**Gritty Realism Rest Variant (DMG pg. 267): (Short rests = 1 full day, Long rests = 1 full week, frequency of both greatly diminished compared to standard rules)
**Lingering Injuries (DMG pg. 272)
**Massive Damage (DMG pg. 273)
**Pretty much all the combat options under the heading Action Options

[Giant2005]

I would probably go with a Bard/Warlock multiclass. I am unsure of the ratios I'd go for but at least two levels of each.

[MeeposFire]

Probably a rogue of some sort.

Anything that relies on a rest will really feel the pain. Think about it as any typical spell caster any spell you get will not come back without you resting for a week. A warlock removes that pain but introduces the problem of only having 2-4 spells that will recharge in a "decent" fashion. So honestly anybody relying on rest mechanics (especially long rest) would probably be really hard to play.

The rogue gives you great survivability with good offense. It is also versatile having skill use, stealth (keeps you alive), mobility (may also save your butt), and has some good options out there.

You will have to play very methodically but I think that is the best bet long term. You could consider branching out after you take the first bunch of levels but rogue is a great base to build for this setting I think.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

In terms of the rests: It really depends on the DM. Gritty rest rules won't necessarily play any different from normal rest rules if the encounters are designed accordingly. Fighting 3 fights, short resting, then 3 fights, then long resting, is nigh-identical whether it occurs over the space of a day or the space of a month.

I think the #1 thing you can probably do to survive in a lingering injuries world is probably to take the Lucky feat or any other form of negating a hit, especially a critical hit. Impose disadvantage, or do anything that generally makes it difficult for enemies to engage you.

[ArchangelAzrael]

Hm I would also consider a human (variant with mobile) Shadow Monk/Warlock 2. Ki would be a problem sure especially at early levels but you could play the stealth game better than anyone and the mobility of the class would allow you to escape gritty situations and kite enemies to death.

Another option if boring would be fighter champion going for range combat. add a ritual caster feat there for the necessary rituals and some added utility. I would start with variant human crossbow master ( I think its called that, currently away from books) and then pick sharpshooter asap. Shield and hand crossbow to get a relatively high AC and careful positioning to avoid as many attacks as possible.

[Kane0]

I second rogue (not AT) for its mobility and ability to mitigate damage as well as no reliance on rests

Fighter (not EK) and warlock are also somewhat manageable with only short rest reliance.
Ritual caster, mobile and healer feats are important and should be taken asap. Lucky to reduce hits taken is also great but exteded rest reliant.

Staying at range is recommeded, the more melee you are subject to the more wounds you will accumulate.

Anything wit extended rest reliance you would want to avoid if you dont want to stop adventuring for weeks to wait for your spells and abilities to return.

[xyianth]

I'll suggest something a bit different, how about going with a character that specializes in avoiding combat via stealth/infiltration/reconnaissance? I created this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?397909-Making-use-of-the-less-discussed-feats-in-the-PHB) as a thought experiment for making use of the less combat oriented feats. Although it has both warlock and wizard levels, it is not actually reliant on the spells they cast, instead focusing on exploiting their at-will tricks. As I mentioned later in the thread, you can significantly strengthen the build by swapping eyes of the rune keeper and the linguist feat for something else. There were also some good suggestions provided by others in that thread. Make sure to check the last post for the updates made, the character became a wood elf and used different starting stats. (though you would still have to adapt for standard array as I used point buy)

If you are looking for a more combat oriented character, I'd recommend a crossbow rogue of some kind(thief or assassin), with a 1-3 level dip in champion fighter for archery style, shield proficiency, and second wind(1 level), action surge(2 levels), and/or improved critical(3 levels). Assassins are probably better until you get to rogue 17, just due to their alpha strike potential. Strongly consider the Alert feat for such a character. Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter are also great feats to use.

[kaoskonfety]

Archery, finesse weapon dex human Champion - alot of the same reasons as people are suggesting rogue with a bit more HP staying power and possibly better armor/weapons

Feats of use - anything that helps you go first, act more, keep at range, get out of melee

Mobile, Mounted combatant (horses move faster than most monsters), sharp shooter, improved initiative, splash stealth and take skulker

Human Champion but Heavy armor master and an Strength/Con big damage weapon design - make every HP count, toughness helps on this one

generally good assuming "gritter game" lucky, resilient, tough, healer, durable, alert
- maximize the value you get out of "short rests" if thats all you are getting in the field - that doesn't mean rely on them, it means make them count, max recover from hit dice, healer feat and kits, anything you can squeeze in and stay deadly.
- if its a dungeon crawl game the damage resistance from traps in dungeon delver might pay for itself a few times over, but milage will heavily vary

Any of the heavy armor clerics and again - the Heavy Armor master feat - the 3 DR will goes MILES when healing is sparse. Life domain and you will be likely find yourself playing old school heal-bot between your cantrips, but I always loved the role, the mace shield heavy armor and 3 damage reduction, could do worse for AC and attack options and channel divinity comes back on a short rest so its of some use to again heal "in field".

[CrusaderJoe]

V. Human Warlock (Chain or Blade Pact)/Rogue (Thief). Gain the healer feat. Get proficiency with herbalism kit.

Whenever things get rough, well, I'm hiding and I don't think anything outside DM fiat should be able to find me (DM Fiat is fine from time to time...). If I go chain pact then I won't really need to boost my cha.


Plus with enough time I won't care much for long rests. Or is this cheating?

Edit: The build will focus on range and hiding.

[Easy_Lee]

I second what's been said about Stealth, and would also add that champions would be excellent for this kind of campaign. Out of everyone, they have the fewest rest-dependent features. They also have multiple means of self-healing (second wind, survivor, potential healer feat) and the best armor.

The loss of half orc would be unwelcome. That said, heavy armor master, plate armor, a shield, shield master, and the armored fighting style could combo to make a very potent and nearly unkillable character for a gritty campaign. A variant human could have all of those things by 4.

Warlocks would also be notable for their always-on invocations. The ability to freely levitate in particular could be quite nice.

[CrusaderJoe]

I second what's been said about Stealth, and would also add that champions would be excellent for this kind of campaign. Out of everyone, they have the fewest rest-dependent features. They also have multiple means of self-healing (second wind, survivor, potential healer feat) and the best armor.

The loss of half orc would be unwelcome. That said, heavy armor master, plate armor, a shield, shield master, and the armored fighting style could combo to make a very potent and nearly unkillable character for a gritty campaign. A variant human could have all of those things by 4.

Warlocks would also be notable for their always-on invocations. The ability to freely levitate in particular could be quite nice.

Do note that second wind is terrible and you would need to support it with other healing. You would need the healer feat and the hearbalism kit. Second wind is not enough to keep you going.

I chose the healer kit not just for myself but so I can help other players as with the herbalism kit.

[Easy_Lee]

Do note that second wind is terrible and you would need to support it with other healing. You would need the healer feat and the hearbalism kit. Second wind is not enough to keep you going.

I chose the healer kit not just for myself but so I can help other players as with the herbalism kit.

While it's not the most health, it's certainly better than nothing. Most classes don't get any self healing to begin with. I suspect that on a heavy armor master, high AC fighter, it would work quite well as a supplement. But I'd have to take a look at the typical mobs fought in the campaign to really design an ideal character.

[CrusaderJoe]

While it's not the most health, it's certainly better than nothing. Most classes don't get any self healing to begin with. I suspect that on a heavy armor master, high AC fighter, it would work quite well as a supplement. But I'd have to take a look at the typical mobs fought in the campaign to really design an ideal character.

Actually, most classes do get a way of healing.

Classes that get some sort of healing that is better than the fighter.

Barbarian: Resistance (during rage)
Bard: Spells
Cleric: Spells
Druid: Spells
Monk: Open Hand (better depending on circumstances)
Paladin: Lay on Hands
Ranger: Spells
Rogue: Fast Hands potions of healing. Bonus action 2d4+4? As many times as you have potions?

Sorcerer/Wizard: False Life... 1d4+4 (+5/ spell slot above first) 24+1d4 with a 5th level spells slot. I only say this is better cause you can buff yourself before going into battle. At 9th level a fighter is doing 1d10+9...

[Easy_Lee]

Actually, most classes do get a way of healing.

Classes that get some sort of healing that is better than the fighter.

Barbarian: Resistance (during rage)
Bard: Spells
Cleric: Spells
Druid: Spells
Monk: Open Hand (better depending on circumstances)
Paladin: Lay on Hands
Ranger: Spells
Rogue: Fast Hands potions of healing. Bonus action 2d4+4? As many times as you have potions?

Sorcerer/Wizard: False Life... 1d4+4 (+5/ spell slot above first) 24+1d4 with a 5th level spells slot. I only say this is better cause you can buff yourself before going into battle. At 9th level a fighter is doing 1d10+9...

Perhaps I should have clarified: most classes don't get a means of healing by default. They have to sacrifice something, such as a feat or spell slot or even ki points, to use theirs when they do. Spell healing is doubly costly, since it's one less spell you can prepare. The paladin lay on hands is probably the most similar (and definitely superior) example above, because all paladins get it and are going to use that healing every time.

As for the potion of healing fast hands thing, three comments: anyone can drink a potion if they have one, drinking the potion in battle is usually not as good an option as just killing the enemy faster, and the "drink a potion" action is distinct from "use an object." So whether that is allowed will depend on the DM.

[Myzz]

Throwing Champion (spears, javelins, or hand axes) in Heavy Armor with Heavy Armor Master, best Race probably Dragonborn for resistance to 1 energy type and +2 str, Half Orc for relentless endurance and +2 Str and +1 con, or Tiefling for Fire resistance and darkness 1/day @ lvl 5 when u get in trouble but Tiefling stats won't help, Even woodelf wouldnt be bad, gives you 5 ft extra movement and ability to hide in natural phenomena...

Almost no issues with loss of Rests.

Stay at Range as much as possible, but if gets in melee no big deal.

At least Half proficiency on ALL physical saves.

Has Con Save Proficiency. Very important in those really gritty games.

Has high AC when gets his plate mail.

Has damage reduction in heavy armor with feat, for when he does get hit

[7heprofessor]

With these very deadly variants in play, the most optimal character is one that can avoid damage (or combat entirely) as much as possible, and relies very little on abilities that refresh. This rules out all primary spellcasters with the Warlock being on the cusp of possible, but my unfamiliarity rules it out for me.

I would definitely go with a dex-based Fighter/Rogue in a campaign like this. Start off Fighter 1 for the Con save proficiencies, increased HP, and armor at 1sgt level, then go Assassin Rogue 3 for stealth and Assassinate.

Variant Human will net you Crossbow Expert at level one. Combine this with the Archery fighting style and you are absolutely devastating in ranged combat. You decide when combat occurs, and use your Rogue's Cunning Action to Dash/Disengage if combat is not happening on your terms. There will be a LOT of hit-and-run tactics to preserve your HP, and none of your Rogue abilities require a rest to refresh. I would focus on a lot of social skills and try to convince/pay people to go with you and be your meat-shields (you don't TELL them that of course ;) )

I've played a Variant Human Assassin Rogue 3/Battle Master Fighter 5 and it was AMAZING. Damn RL ruined the campaign though.


Either way...just my 2 cp

[SharkForce]

i'll add another vote for rogue. race is not super important, most any race will add something useful.

your main focus should be on scouting so you can choose your battles as much as possible, and ambush your enemies when you must fight. a 2-level fighter splash seems like a fairly good idea as well; gives you a nastier ambush, a tiny bit of self-healing, and access to shields (and medium armour for the first few levels while you wait for your dex to provide equivalent AC in light armour).

[treecko]

Champion fighter :)

No one per long/short rest, (s)he'll at max capacity no matter how few rests there are. Get around 20 armor, and you're set.

[Mandragola]

This mechanism obviously penalises casters more than martial classes. The most obvious problem is probably healing but that's actually the easiest to fix, with potions. As mentioned already, the rogue stands out for having no (any?) features that reset on rest. But not all your group can be rogues!

I think a druid could still be viable as an alternative. They can be sneaky and perceptive, which is a good way not to take damage in the first place, and they can turn into a dire wolf or brown bear for a bunch of bonus hp, which never need to be healed. A wood elf with a decent dex score (maybe going with a modified 16 dex and wis) could work well, and could still sneak around and shoot people with a bow when not wildshaped.

A Monk could also work, and I'd go with a shadow monk. An open hand or elemental monk will burn through KI very quickly but a shadow monk has less reason to, basically because it doesn't have the combat features the others do! Instead you save your KI for stuff like pass without trace, which would be a huge asset to a party that wanted to... pass without trace. Another good use of KI is to dodge when you're in trouble of course.

Then eventually you get shadow step, which doesn't require KI at all, and all is well.

[WickerNipple]

I just saw this on the WotC Forum and thought it would be interesting to submit as a challenge to some of our more talented optimization savants.

Best Choices:
Champion Fighter (Dex)
Assassin Rogue
Thief Rogue

Decent Choices:
Ranged Ranger
Ranged Warlock (MC to Sorcerer still works)
Shadow Monk
Open Hand Monk
Totem Barbarian (Dex based slightly better in this case)
Paladin (Dex)

Bad Choices:
All other casters


As a side note, I don't really understand why Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are banned.


But not all your group can be rogues!

Heh, I don't see why not. The first thing I thought of when I saw this thread was: "Huh, I guess this DM wants an all-rogue party."

[Giant2005]

Best Choices:
Champion Fighter (Dex)
Assassin Rogue
Thief Rogue

Decent Choices:
Ranged Ranger
Ranged Warlock (MC to Sorcerer still works)
Shadow Monk
Open Hand Monk
Totem Barbarian (Dex based slightly better in this case)
Paladin (Dex)

Bad Choices:
All other casters
I think having at least one person with 2 levels of Bard is pretty important. When you have to spread your HD over 7 short rests (And a week), you really want to make each one count and Song of Rest is perfect for that.

[WickerNipple]

I think having at least one person with 2 levels of Bard is pretty important. When you have to spread your HD over 7 short rests (And a week), you really want to make each one count and Song of Rest is perfect for that.

Song of Rest was the only reason I was tempted to move Bard up... but it's still only once a day for d6 hp. Everyone playing as human variant Rogues with the Healer feat would just be better.

[Rowan Wolf]

I am kind of surprised the healer's kit dependency rule wasn't in place.

[Chronos]

If you're trying to avoid combat, then the best rogue is a member of any other class with the Urchin background. OK, rogue gets Expertise, too, but you could get that from Bard instead. The only major thing a rogue gets that a bard doesn't is Sneak Attack, and that's useless outside of combat. The bard's spells, meanwhile, will be a precious resource, but it's still handy to have them for an occasional emergency, or when you're pretty sure you're on the last fight of the adventure.

A warlock might also be worthwhile, with Tome Pact and invocations to improve Eldritch Blast and to give at-will spells. False Life, in particular, will mean that you start every encounter with 8 temporary HP. Meanwhile, Tome Pact will give you a bunch of cantrips and all of the rituals, both of which can be used without regards to rest.

[SharkForce]

for a party that barely gets to rest at all, the value of sneak attack should not be underestimated. the value of sneak attack combined with assassin especially should not be underestimated, although thief also offers some tempting options.

the simple fact is, you want to avoid any fight you can't end quickly, and make sure that fights start off so badly for your enemies that you expend few if any resources. a bard generally speaking has to expend resources that don't readily come back. a rogue doesn't. in a standard campaign, yes a bard is plenty good at stealth if built for it. but in this campaign, the bard is still ok at stealth, but they'll have such horrid resource management issues that all of their other class features lose a lot of value.

the rogue's abilities (offensive and defensive) tend to recover on a per-turn basis. then combine that with a basic package that makes you also extremely good at avoiding the encounters you can't take on, and the rogue pulls out slightly ahead. other classes can also be good, but the rogue becomes amazing.

[Kane0]

A party of rogues would be hilarious.

One thief, one assassin, one champion dip rogue and one rogue dip champion. Additional party members can add maybe warlock to avoid duplicate characters.
Go for dex builds with longbows for range and grab feats like healer, alert, observant and mobile. Dont forget sharpshooter of course, and ritual caster and lucky wouldnt go astray. Wood elves, variant humans, urchins and criminals are good picks too.

Stealth as much as possible, only engage on your terms and just fade away when you happen to be caught off guard or in an otherwise unwanted situation.

Edit: not sure how a halfling rogue with a beastmaster ranger dip for a good mount would fare, it might make an interesting idea. Just ignore the fact that you have spells until you are in dire straights.

[Chronos]

What would you get from a rogue dip? You don't really benefit from more than one or maybe two characters with Thieves' Tools proficiency, and 1d6 sneak attack is going to fall behind the curve pretty quickly. All I can really see that's worthwhile is stealth proficiency, and you can get that from a background or from several other classes.

[SharkForce]

expertise, hide and disengage as bonus actions, terrifying damage in an ambush if you go assassin (and if you're only splashing a few rogue levels, i definitely recommend assassin), possibly uncanny dodge/evasion if you take a really big splash. extra skill proficiencies.

lots of good stuff, really.

[Gwendol]

Archery ranger can do well.

In practice though, how well will that work? I'm honestly curious. Sneaking and striking from a distance is fine when you can, but when you don't... I'm guessing Bard can still be very useful simply for the class' ability to manipulate the initiative order. Building the team on the premise of divination (know thy enemy), initiative manipulation/excellence (always strike first), and overwhelming force (excessive use of Nova abilities/classes) seems like a viable choice as well.

[Myzz]

for the whole group, I'd recommend a 2 dip into warlock:
Everyone grabs Devil Sight and ability to cast darkness in some fashion. (Note Drow ability and Tiefling ability to cast darkness equal to a spell caster under these hardcore variants, unless those race abilities are skewed back as well).

For 4 player make-up I'd go:
1. Tiefling throwing Champion X, Warlock 2
2. Drow Rogue X, Warlock 2
3. Tiefling Fighter 1, Warlock X
4. Drow Fighter 1, Warlock 2, Lore Bard X

Everyone but the rogue gets Heavy armor master. Use spells and racials to drop darkness on group each fight to ensure you stay in darkness during fighting... Stay at range within the darkness. Someone take healing kit in background, someone get herbalism kit and ability to make healing potions...

[Chronos]

You'll still run out of slots (or daily uses) to cast those Darknesses from. And if you rely too heavily on that trick, you'll be screwed when you eventually meet things with Blindsight or See In Darkness or whatever.