Best class for a Vital Striker

[Qc Storm]

I know Vital Strike is not the best feat chain, but having a character using only standard actions to attack, and still be free to move around sounds appealing.

What's the best class for this fighting style? Big weapons are a must due to how the feat works. I was thinking of two-handing a Large Bastard swrods, but the rules are a bit unclear on that.

[Ssalarn]

Druid (Saurian Shaman) with a big enough dip into Fighter or Barbarian to get to +16 BAB so you can take Greater Vital Strike. Then you turn into a stegosaurus, grab the Improved/Greater Trip line, and go to town.

Vital Strike wants the largest possible base damage die to be viable, so using something like the stegosaurus, which has an impressive 4d6 starting damage for its tail and a free trip attempt, is ideal. You can cast Strong Jaw to boost your damage die up, potentially Improved Natural Attack (I believe there's some dispute over whether those stack), and get yourself somewhere in the range of 8-12d6 base damage, with Vital Strike (and potentially the Improved and Greater VS feats) raising that to 24, 36, potentially up to 48d6 damage, then another 12d6 off the free attack from improved trip.

Ironically, Vital Strike is almost universally better for casters (or at least classes with spell-like or supernatural abilities) than it is for straight martials since it usually takes magic to get your damage die high enough for VS to be a decent investment.

Hunter can make fairly reasonably use of Vital Strike, since many of the best Hunter strategies involve getting more attacks in by taking only a standard attack action and then using your move for something else, but I find the Hunter is so feat hungry in the best builds that VS would usually be competing with something a bit more useful overall.

There's also a few 3pp classes that make good use of it, like the Aegis or Daevic from Dreamscarred Press. The Psychic Warrior, also from DSP, could also potentially be a good choice; a half-giant PsyWar with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) and expansion, psionic could probably scale his damage die high enough to make it worthwhile. At 5th level you could have a Huge Bastard Sword dealing 3d8, scaled up to 4d8 with expansion for an 8d8 VS attack, and at 7th level you'd get another size category bump from augmented expansion, which would take you up to 6d8 base, 12d8 Vital Strike. Given that the PsyWar has some good Pounce options though, it's probably still not as good as some of the other things you could be doing.

[Elricaltovilla]

Great sword or Earthbreaker hammer are your best weapon choices.

Warpriest, Ranger and Bloodrager are among the best options for vital strike builds. The reason being that you want full BAB for greater vital strike (warpriest can get it with bonus feats) and you want to start stacking size bonuses on yourself or your weapon. The three best spells for this are Enlarge Person, Lead Blades and Righteous Might. Enlarge Person is fairly easy to get (juggernaut pauldrons) while lead blades and righteous might are much harder. Adding impact to your weapon will allow it to do damage as if it were one size larger as well.

With a great sword, enlarge person, lead blades and the impact enchantment you should be hitting for 6d6+ 1.5xSTR damage, or the equivalent of a gargantuan great sword. Getting your weapon up to large size naturally will bump you up to 8d6 or the equivalent of a colossal great sword.

[Ssalarn]

Great sword or Earthbreaker hammer are your best weapon choices.

Warpriest, Ranger and Bloodrager are among the best options for vital strike builds. The reason being that you want full BAB for greater vital strike (warpriest can get it with bonus feats) and you want to start stacking size bonuses on yourself or your weapon. The three best spells for this are Enlarge Person, Lead Blades and Righteous Might. Enlarge Person is fairly easy to get (juggernaut pauldrons) while lead blades and righteous might are much harder. Adding impact to your weapon will allow it to do damage as if it were one size larger as well.

With a great sword, enlarge person, lead blades and the impact enchantment you should be hitting for 6d6+ 1.5xSTR damage, or the equivalent of a gargantuan great sword. Getting your weapon up to large size naturally will bump you up to 8d6 or the equivalent of a colossal great sword.

Forgot about Warpriest and Bloodrager. Warpriest is probably okay, Bloodrager is potentially really good.

Bloodrager is probably the best of the three options thanks to having good ways to boost his size category that stack with virtual size increases like the Impact property, and being generally inclined away from the ful attack mechanic anyways as a spell caster.

For the Ranger, lead blades comes online comparatively late and the Impact weapon property doesn't stack since they're both virtual size increases that use the "x size categories larger than it actually is" verbage.

If you've got a feat to spare, bastard sword is probably the best Vital Strike weapon since it puts you on the d8 chart for scaling, but you need EWP so you can treat it as a one-handed weapon and wield a large one to start off with.

[RolkFlameraven]

The Marksmen from DSP, going down the sniper path might be fun as well. One of the class abilities ups the base weapon die and stacks with vital strike. Takes a bit to come on line though.

[meemaas]

Providing that third party is ok, I'd follow up on Ssalarns suggestion as follows.

Use the Psychic Warrior using Claws of the Beast. Fully augmented the weapon gets a pretty nice base damage die, and expansion can bump that two more. A single level dip in an initiator at a higher level can grant you the primal fury stance that treats your weapons as two sizes larger for damage would increase your damage dice well over 10 baseline depending on how you extrapolate the table for size increases. Finally take the Awakened Blade prestige class to progress your manifesting and maneuvers and get enough BAB to qualify for greater vital strike. Enjoy rolling 40 something dice for your single attack.

[Qc Storm]

I'll shy away from druid for this since I don't want to deal with the druid package.

Warpriest and bloodrager sound nice. I may be wrong here, but would I really need Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a 2H Large Bastard sword? Its actually a one-handed weapon, but is considered martial if you use it two-handed. Wouldn't it make it possible to wield a Large one with the usual penalties for oversized weapons?

[Ssalarn]

I'll shy away from druid for this since I don't want to deal with the druid package.

Warpriest and bloodrager sound nice. I may be wrong here, but would I really need Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a 2H Large Bastard sword? Its actually a one-handed weapon, but is considered martial if you use it two-handed. Wouldn't it make it possible to wield a Large one with the usual penalties for oversized weapons?

If you pop over to the Paizo FAQ page for the CRB, they clarified that the answer to that is basically "no". If you don't have the EWP feat, it's a two-handed medium weapon as far as you're concerned. So you need to have EWP to treat it as a one-handed weapon, then you can wield the large sized one two-handed. The iconic Barbarian does exactly that.

[Qc Storm]

If you pop over to the Paizo FAQ page for the CRB, they clarified that the answer to that is basically "no". If you don't have the EWP feat, it's a two-handed medium weapon as far as you're concerned. So you need to have EWP to treat it as a one-handed weapon, then you can wield the large sized one two-handed. The iconic Barbarian does exactly that.

Shame.

Looking at the Bloodrager, Abyssal bloodline seems perfect for them. As early as level 4, enlarge whenever I rage. The bloodline feats are not too hot, but it can be mitigated with Primalist and Metamagic Rager.

What are some nice rage powers to help with Vital Strike?

EDIT :

Bestial Leaper might be useful. Annoying prereq, but I could basically Hit-and-Run with Vital Strikes and avoiding the danger of full attacks. However considered my expected AC, AoOs will be a problem.

[upho]

I know Vital Strike is not the best feat chain, but having a character using only standard actions to attack, and still be free to move around sounds appealing.

What's the best class for this fighting style?If you're primarily looking for ways to move to within melee range of an enemy and also deal good damage with your attack within one turn, I would suggest you go for pounce or a similar ability that allows you to make a full attack on a charge. It's probably less of a hassle to actually get really worthwhile, and it gets more out of other strong options.

The most direct route to pounce is to be a synthesist summoner with a quadruped base form, allowing you to grab the pounce evolution as early as 1st level, which has the downside of the synthesist having many fuzzy rules and typically being regarded as overpowered in many games. Another, and the perhaps most common, option is to be a barbarian with the beast totem line of rage powers, giving you pounce at 10th level. A third option is to simply go for a caster which allows you to polymorph into something with many attacks and pounce, like a tiger or an allosaurus (such as the aforementioned druid).

The fourth option is a build that uses unarmed strikes, or better, primary natural attacks such as claws combined with the Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat) feat, and takes two levels of the Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) monk archetype for "free" Improved Unarmed Strike, Pummeling Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-style-combat-style) and early Pummeling Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat). This alternative is probably best combined with a race that gives you natural attacks other than claws (toothy half-orc, tiefling with maw, skinwalker etc), and bloodrager of the rageshaper archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/rageshaper) with the abyssal bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/paizo---bloodrager-bloodlines/abyssal). It benefits greatly from feats such as Dragon Style and especially Dragon Ferocity (which the monk archetype can use simultaneously with Pummeling Style), Horn of The Criosphinx and Improved Natural Attack, items such as Helm of the Mammoth Lord and brawling armor, and various other charge, natural attack or unarmed strike related options. It's worth mentioning that this often has the downside of typically being tremendously powerful (overpowered) in early levels in many games but often difficult to scale in high levels unless you find a way to gain additional natural attacks.

Other options are for example getting a similar benefit through mounted combat with the Mounted Skirmisher feat at 14th level, or by being a fighter of the mobile fighter archetype (not recommended).


Big weapons are a must due to how the feat works. I was thinking of two-handing a Large Bastard swrods, but the rules are a bit unclear on that.I believe that has been cleared up not too long ago, actually. Simply put, there are two factors which affect the wielding of over-sized weapons. The first is that they go from light to one-handed, from one-handed to two-handed, or from two-handed to impossible. The other is that they impart a -2 penalty to attack rolls for being improperly sized, regardless of how they're wielded. So if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) feat, you can wield a large bastard sword in both hands as a medium creature, but take a -2 penalty to your attack rolls. As far as I know, the only way to wield over-sized weapons without penalties is to gain the powerful build trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant), which is not an option made by Paizo, but can be found in the highly recommended material from Dreamscarred Press, most of which is also available on the d20pfsrd.com site.

[Qc Storm]

We've already played a lot of the "best builds" in the past. Things like synthesis summoners and pouncing druids, but we've grown tired of them with time. As a group, we agreed to look into less optimal and original options to keep the game fresh. That's why I'm looking into Vital Strike.

I'm actually playing a Pummeling Brawler in another campaign and the Helm of the Mammoth Lord looked nice, but I don't think it works with Pummeling Charge.

Oh and Half-Giant is great. I'll try to remember that.

[VexingFool]

A level dip into Titan Fighter would allow you to wield two-handed melee weapons sized for a creature one size larger than yourself.

The Giant-Blooded trait in the Giantslayer AP allows you to halve the penalty for using inappropriately sized weapons.

A dwarf with martial weapon proficiency and a level of Titan fighter he can use the dwarven longaxe/longhammer and do 3d6 base damage plus have reach.

[Qc Storm]

A level dip into Titan Fighter would allow you to wield two-handed melee weapons sized for a creature one size larger than yourself.

The Giant-Blooded trait in the Giantslayer AP allows you to halve the penalty for using inappropriately sized weapons.

A dwarf with martial weapon proficiency and a level of Titan fighter he can use the dwarven longaxe/longhammer and do 3d6 base damage plus have reach.

That's really cool. What happens if a Bloodrager dips into Barbarian? Does he gain rage rounds?

EDIT : nevermind that, thought it was a barbarian archetype.

[Beowulf DW]

If you've got a feat to spare, bastard sword is probably the best Vital Strike weapon since it puts you on the d8 chart for scaling, but you need EWP so you can treat it as a one-handed weapon and wield a large one to start off with.

Warpriest of Ragathiel gets Bastard Sword proficiency for free. Just putting that out there.

Incidentally, how does Vital Strike work with the Sacred Weapon class feature?

[Rainshine]

I like Half-Giant Psy Warrior with Augmented Expansion. If you want to make the attack even more painful, go into the War Mind prestige class, which allows you, as part of your attack action, to do an extra 10d6. And it gives you a +4 insight bonus to strength a couple times a day, just to make your damage that much more ridiculous.

[meemaas]

I like Half-Giant Psy Warrior with Augmented Expansion. If you want to make the attack even more painful, go into the War Mind prestige class, which allows you, as part of your attack action, to do an extra 10d6. And it gives you a +4 insight bonus to strength a couple times a day, just to make your damage that much more ridiculous.

Problem is that neither your strength bonus nor the bonus dice get multiplied by vital strike.

[Psyren]

Incidentally, how does Vital Strike work with the Sacred Weapon class feature?

Sacred Weapon changes the dice, and then Vital Strike lets you roll the new dice multiple times.

[Ssalarn]

Sacred Weapon changes the dice, and then Vital Strike lets you roll the new dice multiple times.

Of some note though, Sacred Weapon uses the base damage or the chart damage, whichever is greater, so it seems like Sacred Weapon doesn't actually scale that well with the techniques for boosting your weapon damage die. It contains the following line "(If the weapon's base damage exceeds the sacred weapon damage, its damage is unchanged.) "

Considering the large size Sacred Weapon damage at 20th level is identical to the damage you can get at 1st level with a half-giant wielding a huge bastard sword, it seems like that ability won't factor in much.

[upho]

We've already played a lot of the "best builds" in the past. Things like synthesis summoners and pouncing druids, but we've grown tired of them with time. As a group, we agreed to look into less optimal and original options to keep the game fresh. That's why I'm looking into Vital Strike.Ah, OK. Just out of curiosity, which one did you find to actually be the "best"?


I'm actually playing a Pummeling Brawler in another campaign and the Helm of the Mammoth Lord looked nice, but I don't think it works with Pummeling Charge.Nope, it just nets you a gore for non-charge full attacks. Which is pretty damn good for its price, though. Though I guess you could of course also get WF (ioun stone?) and FCT for the gore attack as well, though it does seem kinda costly.


Oh and Half-Giant is great. I'll try to remember that.While you're at it, I'd recommend you also have a look at the PoW stuff from DSP. Seriously good stuff.

[Almarck]

Vital Strike can also be used with archery. It is not only good for melee. Consider rolling a ranger and using Twohanded weapons and bows and switching as combat demands.

It's not all out, but it's flexible. Ranger may be good to use to provide feats for you to get ranged combat styles while you get other things with your actual feats.

[Ssalarn]

Vital Strike can also be used with archery. It is not only good for melee. Consider rolling a ranger and using Twohanded weapons and bows and switching as combat demands.

It's not all out, but it's flexible. Ranger may be good to use to provide feats for you to get ranged combat styles while you get other things with your actual feats.

I find that it's hard to justify VS with archery when you're already so much more likely to get full attacks and it doesn't combine with stuff like Shot on the Run. Especially on a chassis like the Ranger where you have easy mount access. THF is so feat light you don't need many melee feats to be a good switch hitter.

[Almarck]

I find that it's hard to justify VS with archery when you're already so much more likely to get full attacks and it doesn't combine with stuff like Shot on the Run. Especially on a chassis like the Ranger where you have easy mount access. THF is so feat light you don't need many melee feats to be a good switch hitter.

Good points. I forgot Archery has so many more feats that support mass hitting. THF does not have this. Still, it's probably feat efficient of an option to switch hit.

[Qc Storm]

Ah, OK. Just out of curiosity, which one did you find to actually be the "best"?

Nope, it just nets you a gore for non-charge full attacks. Which is pretty damn good for its price, though. Though I guess you could of course also get WF (ioun stone?) and FCT for the gore attack as well, though it does seem kinda costly.

While you're at it, I'd recommend you also have a look at the PoW stuff from DSP. Seriously good stuff.

While I loved Tome of Battle, I didn't get the same vibe from Path of War.

Granted, I didn't give them a thorough read (only skimmed through the classes and some maneuvers on the PFSRD), but it seemed less elegant this time around. Most of the maneuvers seem to pile on damage on top of damage, on top of the bonus cool stuff we've come to love from Weeaboo Fightan Magic.

I understand it is to close the gap between martials and spellcasters, but I've always thought the problem was the opposite. Bearded spell-slingers should be brought down, rather than buffing stick-wielders up to their level.

I got a few players playing low-level ones, so I'll see how it goes with time.

What's FCT anyway?


Vital Strike can also be used with archery. It is not only good for melee. Consider rolling a ranger and using Twohanded weapons and bows and switching as combat demands.

It's not all out, but it's flexible. Ranger may be good to use to provide feats for you to get ranged combat styles while you get other things with your actual feats.

I've considered using a Crossbow. As a half-giant I'd be able to wield a large one, possibly Heavy. Enlarge unfortunately wouldn't help, but perhaps a UMDed lead arrows, combined with Vital Strike, could allow me to stay relevant against things I cannot hit with a stick.

[upho]

While I loved Tome of Battle, I didn't get the same vibe from Path of War.

Granted, I didn't give them a thorough read (only skimmed through the classes and some maneuvers on the PFSRD), but it seemed less elegant this time around. Most of the maneuvers seem to pile on damage on top of damage, on top of the bonus cool stuff we've come to love from Weeaboo Fightan Magic.

I understand it is to close the gap between martials and spellcasters, but I've always thought the problem was the opposite. Bearded spell-slingers should be brought down, rather than buffing stick-wielders up to their level.

I got a few players playing low-level ones, so I'll see how it goes with time.Well, while I think you're somewhat right, I also don't think it applies to PoW - those classes are not even remotely close to the power levels of full casters. And also, I've basically always felt that for me, personally, the probably biggest issue with the core martials in 3e is their total lack of variation or meaningful choices. Full attack on repeat quickly gets boring. It will always strike me as weird and counter-intuitive that the most extremely combat focused classes are also the classes with the least number of viable tactical options in combat. :smallmad: By this, I mean that I believe that while the bearded guys must come down, the stick-pokers must move up, first and foremost via increased versatility. Which is pretty much exactly what the PoW stuff does, and even better than ToB, IME.


What's FCT anyway?Oh, sorry. I was being lazy. Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat), a.k.a "The Long Nails Tax".

[Ravens_cry]

Vital Strike line is pretty for druid animal companions with one big attack (T-Rex, for example) when you combine Animal Growth and Strong Jaw for maximum nom. If you plan on going T-Rex yourself, I can see it being good as well.

[Ssalarn]

I've considered using a Crossbow. As a half-giant I'd be able to wield a large one, possibly Heavy. Enlarge unfortunately wouldn't help, but perhaps a UMDed lead arrows, combined with Vital Strike, could allow me to stay relevant against things I cannot hit with a stick.

Maybe use something like a Double Crossbow or Minotaur Double Crossbow, where you can fire two bolts as a single attack? That'd help you maximize the return on a VS attack since you're starting at like 4d8 weapon damage anyways.

[Tohsaka Rin]

If you're willing to work for it, you can do archery pretty well with Vital Strike.

Take Aegis for a few levels, and slap either Powerful Build or Enlarge (or both) onto your astral suit.

Then pick up Soul Knife, but NOT the Soulbolt archetype (because reasons, bear with me).

Level until you hit BaB5, then take the Soul Archer PrC, as this class buffs your Soulknife levels.

Pick up Psionic Shot, Fell Shot, and Psionic Meditation.

How does all of this add up? Let's take a look.

Soul weaponry resizes itself to suit you, so that Soul Archer attack would buff up, depending on how many size increases you stack on. 2d6 easy, though.

Fell Shot uses your psionic focus to turn one attack roll into a touch attack. You can regain your focus as a move action, thanks to Psionic Meditation.

Soulknife/Soul Archer both give you Psychic Strike, which gives you extra dice on a single attack roll. The further you go with either of these classes, the more dice you'll get for Psychic Strike. On top of your Vital Strike damage, to boot.

If you're willing to burn a pair of feats (one to gain a point of essence) you can grab Essence Focus (an Akashic Magic feat), and be able to fuel a pair of feats with your Psionic Focus, letting you add Psionic Shot (or the improved version) to your Fell Shot.

Dice, on dice, on dice, it all adds up. And, since you'll be throwing all these dice as a single attack, I doubt you'll ever have to worry about DR, ever.

[Ssalarn]

If you're going to dip Akashic feats, you could snag Shape Veil for Armory of the Conqueror to boost the base damage die of your weapon. You'd probably want to invest enough in Akashic feats to have at least 3 essence available for the veil by 12th level though.

[Tohsaka Rin]

That means burning more feats, however. Twice as many, since you'd need 3 points of essence, and then the Bind Veil feat, too.

That's a lot of feats, and you could just get the effect much easier by taking the Daevic class instead.

[Ssalarn]

That means burning more feats, however. Twice as many, since you'd need 3 points of essence, and then the Bind Veil feat, too.

That's a lot of feats, and you could just get the effect much easier by taking the Daevic class instead.

I was about to come back and say exactly that, that it'd probably be easier to multiclass. I'd go Guru and still grab Shape Veil (or do Elminster levels of multiclassing), so that I could take the Akasin philosophy and add my Wis and some d4s to damage as well.

[Tohsaka Rin]

The Soul Archer already uses wisdom for damage, by default.

[meemaas]

If you're willing to work for it, you can do archery pretty well with Vital Strike.

Take Aegis for a few levels, and slap either Powerful Build or Enlarge (or both) onto your astral suit.

Then pick up Soul Knife, but NOT the Soulbolt archetype (because reasons, bear with me).

Level until you hit BaB5, then take the Soul Archer PrC, as this class buffs your Soulknife levels.

Pick up Psionic Shot, Fell Shot, and Psionic Meditation.

How does all of this add up? Let's take a look.

Soul weaponry resizes itself to suit you, so that Soul Archer attack would buff up, depending on how many size increases you stack on. 2d6 easy, though.

Fell Shot uses your psionic focus to turn one attack roll into a touch attack. You can regain your focus as a move action, thanks to Psionic Meditation.

Soulknife/Soul Archer both give you Psychic Strike, which gives you extra dice on a single attack roll. The further you go with either of these classes, the more dice you'll get for Psychic Strike. On top of your Vital Strike damage, to boot.

If you're willing to burn a pair of feats (one to gain a point of essence) you can grab Essence Focus (an Akashic Magic feat), and be able to fuel a pair of feats with your Psionic Focus, letting you add Psionic Shot (or the improved version) to your Fell Shot.

Dice, on dice, on dice, it all adds up. And, since you'll be throwing all these dice as a single attack, I doubt you'll ever have to worry about DR, ever.

Just a nitpick, but you do know that the extra dice from psionic shot and psychic strike don't get multiplied by vital strike, right?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Of course, but why NOT throw on an extra 2 to six dice, if you're able to?

I'm a big believer in easy, constant access to free extra damage dice. I usually suggest taking Pyrokineticist too, if you can spare the levels (and perhaps convince the DM to let you use an element OTHER than fire, of all things) but this build doesn't look like it quite has enough wiggle room for that.